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tonnyj

Clearification Please

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"The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami.

 

On page 33 it discusses the Prophet gathering 319 men to fight against the Quraishi forces of 1000 men. After the victory of the Battle of Badr, Khubaib (a Muslim) is held captive. How is it so that the Muslims were victorious yet one of their men were held captive?

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"The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami."

 

On page 46 it says:

 

Zaid b. Thabit stated, "Ibn Um-Maktum came to the Prophet while he was dictating to me the verse, 'Not equal are those believers who sit...' On hearing the verse Ibn Um-Maktum said, 'O Prophet of Allah, had I the means I would most certainly have participate in Jihad.' He was a blind man. So Allah revealed [the remainder of the verse] to the Prphet while his thigh was on mine and it became so heavy that I feared my thigh would break."

 

So did the Prophet sit on Zaid. b Thabit's lap in order that a blind man receive revelation?

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"thigh was on my thigh" means they were sitting next to each other closely

when you squat on the ground, somewhat like the yoga posture( but not it exactly where the soles of each foot are directed skywards ,- that yoga posture is disallowed to muslims) so when people sit close to each other in that posture the one who comes and sits down later his thigh is naturally pushed into the space between the ground and the folded knee of the one that was already sitting, however during the process of revelation the knee must have pushed downwards and thus the flesh above the knee,called the thigh , must have presses on the narrator's aabove knee flesh, called the thigh.

And tony j dear, while we grow with each minute,, we also learn that in order to hurt someone's feelings we first have to hurt our own positivity by struggling to fabricate the means for hurting the other.

I dont think anything in this world is worth diving into the dark gloomy ocean of negativity for fetching words and means that may hurt someone

do you?

Edited by writewhite

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"thigh was on my thigh" means they were sitting next to each other closely

when you squat on the ground, somewhat like the yoga posture( but not it exactly where the soles of each foot are directed skywards ,- that yoga posture is disallowed to muslims) so when people sit close to each other in that posture the one who comes and sits down later his thigh is naturally pushed into the space..."

 

You say this posture is not allowed to be made by Muslims, but you say "...when people sit close to each other in that posture..." So which posture are you talking about? Was this a different posture than the yoga posture?

 

And what do you mean by saying that I go and hurt others? Is this about the trinity?

Edited by tonnyj

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the yoga squatting posture requires one to squat by sitting on the buttocks(ischial tuberosities of the two hip bones) and pull the legs inwards fully flexing each knee joint such that the each lower leg is folded to touch it's upper half(the underside of that leg's thigh) this much is similar in the yoga posture and any normal squat and is allowed in Islam; however, in yoga in addition to the above one pulls ones feet through the other side's folded knee to be visible in one's lap, and in that posture the sole's of the feet face skyward, or tend to--this extra waste of effort,(pulling the feet with one's hand from under the other leg's folded knee) for simply sitting down, is disallowed in Islam.

Islam is common sense

and thus any waste of time or effort for meaningless is ofcourse disallowed

Islam disallows that which is harmful to the person &/or society and calls it a sin

yes

you deliberately use phrases and words that you very well intend to irk the muslim readers who you are actually asking favours of/from

when one answers you, one spends time and effort

when you write

"thigh upon my thigh"

and proceed to insinuate sitting in the lap

obviates that you put in effort to hurt feelings of those you take favours from.

And i advised you,because it is my duty and job to help any human who is hurting himself by giving his self to negativity for even a fraction/word.

Accept your fault and try correcting it

that will mean growth

and we all continue to grow in wisdom and honour all our lives

that means myself too

keep asking questions, dont stop, but choose words and phrases that do not mock or reek of disrespect

we are all brethren/sons of our father adam alaih assalaat vassalaam, so we should all respect each other's feelings.

Salaam

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please take "sense" and not offence

remain among us please

salaam

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you deliberately use phrases and words that you very well intend to irk the muslim readers who you are actually asking favours of/from

when one answers you, one spends time and effort

when you write

"thigh upon my thigh"

and proceed to insinuate sitting in the lap

obviates that you put in effort to hurt feelings of those you take favours from.

 

Actually I dont say things to deliberately offend or agitate Muslims. Maybe I might to Christians a tad bit. Anyways I was reading this 'on the thigh' thing from the "The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami. I cant help what I read and the way it interprets into my brain when its in clear plain text. I know that if I say the Prophet sat on someone, it would sound offensive, but how else am I supposed to ask? It's written in a way that can be interpreted that way. Maybe I should of thought that this meant Muhammad did not have a bottom and used a huge 2 by 4 made of wood to place on top of the man's thigh to sound less offensive? But am I really asking the question or am I too afraid to ask because it seems offensive? Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong or don't know of this yoga position you just explained. That's why I'm asking. I still dont know what you mean by the yoga position - which I think I need a diagram.

Edited by tonnyj

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and for:

 

"The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami.

 

On page 33 it discusses the Prophet gathering 319 men to fight against the Quraishi forces of 1000 men. After the victory of the Battle of Badr, Khubaib (a Muslim) is held captive. How is it so that the Muslims were victorious yet one of their men were held captive?

 

I dont know the history - thats why I ask. I read and interpret. If questions seem to rise up, I ask. Is it really that agitating?

Edited by tonnyj

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Salam

 

Maybe (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgoogle.co.in/imgres?q=indian+sitting+postures&um=1&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADSA_enIN425IN426&tbm=isch&tbnid=qee3BPLMG3T2WM:&imgrefurl=you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_babybakingbread.blogspot(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/2010/05/italian-bread-ooh-la-la.html&docid=ZDRoUgVvFCYcLM&w=1280&h=960&ei=1C4tTsbgN8LtrAe38uGxDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=339&vpy=88&dur=2755&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=148&ty=98&page=1&tbnh=143&tbnw=222&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0&biw=1366&bih=618"]this[/url] will help

 

 

Allah! You're a muslim?!!! Subhanallah huge changes during my absence eh? Masha Allah

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Asalaamu Alaykum

 

With regards to the hadith you mentioned in Bukhari in the beginning it mentions that Zaid says i sat close to the Prophet (SAWS). Some scholers mention that both were sitting cross legged and becasue Zaid had moved close to the prophet (SAWS) he had one leg slightly under the leg of the prophet (SAWS). The revelation would come down when Allah decreed it to come down there was nothing the Prophet (SAWS) could do to hasten or slow the process.

 

Yes it is a victory Khubaib was captured after the battle of badr, even still the muslims defeated the army of the quraysh and ensured their survival which is a victory. Unless you see a reason otherwise. Do you see the battle of badr as a defeat on the muslims?

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tony j

LEARN to GROW in HONOUR

if you choose to not show respect for my spiritual father, muhammad alaih assalaat wassalaam, then at least dont use demeaning phrases or words,please.

You wouldnt like it if i said, "maybe tony j's dad doesnt have a bottom"

PAY ATTENTION

if one doesnt learn better manners of speech/writing/intent/act with each next writing/speech/intent/action, then one is wasting oneself.

I mean you well and dont mean you offence

but PLEASE remeber to not show disrespect for my spiritual father.

Your next question/answer will hopefully not convince me to ignore you in future

salaama

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Asalaamu Alaykum

 

With regards to the hadith you mentioned in Bukhari in the beginning it mentions that Zaid says i sat close to the Prophet (SAWS). Some scholers mention that both were sitting cross legged and becasue Zaid had moved close to the prophet (SAWS) he had one leg slightly under the leg of the prophet (SAWS). The revelation would come down when Allah decreed it to come down there was nothing the Prophet (SAWS) could do to hasten or slow the process.

 

Yes it is a victory Khubaib was captured after the battle of badr, even still the muslims defeated the army of the quraysh and ensured their survival which is a victory. Unless you see a reason otherwise. Do you see the battle of badr as a defeat on the muslims?

 

Thank you brother. I'm glad you can clear this up for me. No I dont see the Battle of Badr as a defeat. Its just that if the victors are victorious, how was one of the victors captured?

 

And for the sister and other brother, I still dont understand what your problem is. I'm not disrespecting the Prophet or Muslims. I am just asking for clarification on this subject like this brother is doing for me. Why do you continue to defame me when I'm just asking a question? Sure if you say my 'dad has a bottom' - I wouldn't take offence - but what if you said to me, your 'dad's huge ###### is so huge'? Maybe then I would figure your going out of your way of modesty to try an irritate me? So please brother and sister, dont go crazy because I asked a question. I'm happy I found Islam because I was starting to lose sense of what the meaning of life is. Now since I found something that seems to have the answers, I'm diving in to understand as much as I can. Hence thats why I posted in the "I've Just Reverted (Converted) to Islam" section - because its been maybe a month and a half since I've converted - so take it easy.

Edited by tonnyj

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I've got another question.

 

I'm reading:

"The normal procedure in collating manuscripts is for the editor to compare different copies of the same work, though naturally not all copies will be of equal value. In outlining manuscript gradations, which are most dependable and which are worthless, Bergstrasser set out a few rules among the most important of which are:

1. Older copies are generally more reliable than newer ones.

2. Copies that were revised and corrected by the scribe, though comparison with the mother manuscript, are superior to those which lack this.

3. If the original is extant, any copy scribed from this loses all significance." (pg 81, "The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami.

)

 

Okay here # 1 and 3 make sense. So for # 2 I ask - were the newer copies found which had been corrected more reliable than the older ones (mother manuscript)?

Edited by tonnyj

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Hey 'War with me'

 

maybe I realized if I'm a baby then maybe you must be very knowledgeable indeed. Does this represent how knowledgeable you really are?

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgoogle.ca/imgres?q=old+lady&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=665&tbm=isch&tbnid=qD1wcaPAetcAWM:&imgrefurl=you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/File:Old_lady_from_Darap%28Sikkim%29.jpg&docid=2Z4GxE1JzoldmM&w=590&h=793&ei=oXMtTpHnJ_TFsQKtobz0BA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=190&page=1&tbnh=165&tbnw=123&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0&tx=26&ty=23"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgoogle.ca/imgres?q=old+lady&amp...tx=26&ty=23[/url]
Edited by tonnyj

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In wars there are many fights and battles, some fights and battles may be lost however as long as the key battles and fights are won then the war will be won.

 

In the Battle of Badr, the war was won by the muslims. The Quraysh did kill some companions and so for them they would have won a few fights but in the main they lost war.

 

For the question you recently posted, you need to put down some more information

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This is talking about "How Zaid bin Thabit Utilised the Written Materials" (pg81) after Abu Bakr ordered him for a compilation of the Quran to begin.

 

here is the link to the PDF

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_forum.bodybuilding(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/showpost.php?p=10770680&postcount=3"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_forum.bodybuilding(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/showpost.php...amp;postcount=3[/url]

 

"The normal procedure in collating manuscripts is for the editor to compare different copies of the same work, though naturally not all copies will be of equal value. In outlining manuscript gradations, which are most dependable and which are worthless, Bergstrasser set out a few rules among the most important of which are:

1. Older copies are generally more reliable than newer ones.

2. Copies that were revised and corrected by the scribe, though comparison with the mother manuscript, are superior to those which lack this.

3. If the original is extant, any copy scribed from this loses all significance." (pg 81, "The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami.

)

 

Okay here # 1 and 3 make sense. So for # 2 I ask - were the newer copies found which had been corrected more reliable than the older ones (mother manuscript)?

 

So what I'm asking is - if Muslims only used the most authentic and oldest manuscripts to compile the Quran (as stated in #1 and #3), why would newer copies found that were revised or corrected (#2), be used for the compilation process as well?

Edited by tonnyj

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The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami.

 

Now I'm on page 94 reading about the final edited copies of the Quran. Now Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami is talking about how many copies Uthman distributed. Some say its for, others say 8, some say 9. As I read down the bottom of the page he says:

 

No copy was sent forth without a qari (reciter). These included Zaid b. Thabit to Madinah, Abdullah b. as-Sa'ib to Makkah, al-Mughira b. Shihab to Syria, Amir b. Abd Qais to Basra and Abu Abdur Rahman as- Sulami to Kufa. Now if you count that, only 5 qari were sent with the copies of the Quran.

 

Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami believes that 9 were sent. So what happened to the remaining 4 qari that are supposed to be sent with the copies of the Quran? Were the 4 just only copies sent without reciters?

Edited by tonnyj

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How the Qur'an was compile

 

After the Prophet’s death, the community chose Abu Bakr as their temporal chief, the Khalifah of the Messenger, the Caliph. About a year later, a large number of those known as authoritative memorizers were killed in a battle. According to authentic Hadith literature, `Umar Ibn al Khattab (who became the second Caliph) was alarmed by this and concerned that the next generation may not have enough teachers of the Qur’an. He, therefore, approached Abu Bakr, and suggested that a formal compilation of the Qur’an be prepared on materials that would be convenient to store, maintained, and used as a reference. According to the Hadith literature, Abu Bakr was reluctant to do some thing the Prophet himself had not undertaken. After a few days, however, he “became inclined†to the idea and asked Zayd to undertake the task. Zayd says he also hesitated but, after contemplation, also “became inclined†and agreed to undertake the work. A committee was formed to do the job. They compiled a collection by checking and double checking each Ayah of the existing record of the Qur’an with the memories of each member of the committee as well as of the other prominent experts. This copy was housed with the Prophet’s wife Hafsa. (She was a daughter of `Umar ibn al Khattab).

 

 

By the time of the third Caliph, `Uthman ibn `Affan, the Muslim population had spread over vast areas out side the core Arab regions and many people of other cultures were entering Islam. About 15 years after the first compilation, therefore, it was suggested that authenticated copies of the Qur’an be made available to major population centers in those areas. Zayd again was instructed to undertake the task. He again formed a committee. Instead of just making copies of the existing text, they decided to seek corroboration of each Ayah in the earlier compilation with at least two other written records in the private copies in the possession of known reputable individuals. It is reported that this comparison was successful for all Ayahs except one. For this Ayah, only one comparison could be found. But it was in the hands of a person who was considered so reliable by the Prophet himself that his lone testimony was accepted by the Prophet in a case requiring two witnesses. it is reported that, 7 copies of the collection were prepared and authenticated. One of these copies was given to the Caliph himself. One became the reference copy for the people of Madinah, one was sent to Makkah, one to Kufah, and one to Damascus.

 

 

Bergstrasser set out a few rules among the most important of which are:

 

Bergstrasser was a german who lived in the 19th century while he was a great linguist, he rules mean nothing about how the Qur'an was compiled

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Bergstrasser was a german who lived in the 19th century while he was a great linguist, he rules mean nothing about how the Qur'an was compiled

 

Okay I guess your right that a non-Muslim who has say over how things work when compiling the Quran should not be highly regarded. But I'm reading this from Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami who uses Bergstrasser as an example of what criteria should be used when compiling Quranic manuscripts.

 

From what I'm reading so far, it seems that the way the Quran was preserved is very tight and impressive. Even the bible has squat against how the Quran was preserved. There are a few errors when comparing the original Mushafs against one another but the errors are so insignificant and very few in number that it holds no value pretty much of really being called an error. (The variants found as possible errors seem to add up like 3 lines out of 9000 lines - which the so called errors are still insignificant.) The way I see it thus far, the Quran does more than an exceptional job of painstakingly preserving and teaching the original from the time of the Prophet to the time of the Companion's who lived in the time the Quran was revealed, even up until now.

 

But I'm still not done reading this book. SO DONT GET MAD AT ME if I raise a few questions ( brother and sister - you know who) later on when I discover something else.

Edited by tonnyj

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assalaamu alaik ya tony j

if in any way or sense i hurt you , i apologize

as i believe, and the prophet alaih assalaat vassalaam COMMANDED it ,

one keeps growing in awareness till one's grave

so i mean to inform that myself am a novice at practicing Islam

grant me that handicap,kindly ,brotherly

May Allah Help us all Know more of Him/Allah and His. Aameen

salamualaik brother

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Just to clarify, there are no errors in the Qur'an. When they compiled the quran and compared it to the trustworthy people who had written a copy for personal use, all of the ayah from the compilation task had been corroborated with those trustworthy people.

 

It is as it was revealed to Muhammed (saws).

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Ok thank you brother writewhite for understanding. Yea I dont mean any disrespect. I have lack of knowledge of these things.

 

This might be going off topic for a bit but I read over the ayah

 

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Surat az-Zumar, 5)

 

Now when its talking about subservient - what is it subservient to? The Earth or itself?

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Just to clarify, there are no errors in the Qur'an. When they compiled the quran and compared it to the trustworthy people who had written a copy for personal use, all of the ayah from the compilation task had been corroborated with those trustworthy people.

 

It is as it was revealed to Muhammed (saws).

 

Right would you say the only Mushafs that were in perfect harmony with one another was the Mushaf of Uthman, Kufa, and Basra at the time of the final compilation?

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I've got another question.

 

I'm reading:

Okay here # 1 and 3 make sense. So for # 2 I ask - were the newer copies found which had been corrected more reliable than the older ones (mother manuscript)?

 

As-salamu alaikum

 

The point number two doesn't say that newer copies which had been corrected are more reliable than the mother manuscript. It says that newer copies which have been verified by checking them against the mother manuscript are better than newer copies which have not been checked against the mother manuscript. I hope that clarifies it a bit.

 

 

The History of the Qur'anic Text" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami.

 

Now I'm on page 94 reading about the final edited copies of the Quran. Now Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami is talking about how many copies Uthman distributed. Some say its for, others say 8, some say 9. As I read down the bottom of the page he says:

 

No copy was sent forth without a qari (reciter). These included Zaid b. Thabit to Madinah, Abdullah b. as-Sa'ib to Makkah, al-Mughira b. Shihab to Syria, Amir b. Abd Qais to Basra and Abu Abdur Rahman as- Sulami to Kufa. Now if you count that, only 5 qari were sent with the copies of the Quran.

 

Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami believes that 9 were sent. So what happened to the remaining 4 qari that are supposed to be sent with the copies of the Quran? Were the 4 just only copies sent without reciters?

 

I can't speak for Mustafa al-Azami but there were other famous Qaris that aren't mentioned in the list. For rexample, Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'ab, Abu Huraira, Ibn Abbas, Abu ad-Darda'a, Abu Musa al-Ashari, Muadh bin Jabal, Ali ibn Abi Talib etc. There was no shortage of Qarish. But what is definite is that no Mushaf would have been sent without a Qari.

 

Okay I guess your right that a non-Muslim who has say over how things work when compiling the Quran should not be highly regarded. But I'm reading this from Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'Zami who uses Bergstrasser as an example of what criteria should be used when compiling Quranic manuscripts.

 

The principles that are listed by Bergstrasser are pretty simple and sound.

 

From what I'm reading so far, it seems that the way the Quran was preserved is very tight and impressive. Even the bible has squat against how the Quran was preserved. There are a few errors when comparing the original Mushafs against one another but the errors are so insignificant and very few in number that it holds no value pretty much of really being called an error. (The variants found as possible errors seem to add up like 3 lines out of 9000 lines - which the so called errors are still insignificant.) The way I see it thus far, the Quran does more than an exceptional job of painstakingly preserving and teaching the original from the time of the Prophet to the time of the Companion's who lived in the time the Quran was revealed, even up until now.

 

Yes, the preservation of the Qur'an was serious. However, the variants are not errors. You should re-read that part of the Azami's book. They are valid differences that were taught by the Prophet (pbuh). These variants are still preserved today. For example, I have a copy of the Qur'an based on the copy of Madinah at home - they are in print - along with the Qur'an that is normally used.

 

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Surat az-Zumar, 5)

 

Now when its talking about subservient - what is it subservient to? The Earth or itself?

 

There is no mention of God making it subservient to the Earth or itself, i.e. the Sun being subservient itself. What it means that the Sun and the Moon have been made subservient to run for their specific term.

 

God made them subservient to us, i.e. for our benefit, not that we command the Sun or anything:

 

It is Allah Who has subjected the sea to you, that ships may sail through it by His command, that ye may seek of his Bounty, and that ye may be grateful.

 

And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: Behold, in that are Signs indeed for those who reflect. (45:12-13)

 

Right would you say the only Mushafs that were in perfect harmony with one another was the Mushaf of Uthman, Kufa, and Basra at the time of the final compilation?

 

It appears so.

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As-salamu alaikum

 

I would like to ask the rest of the brothers and sisters to cut brother tonnyj some slack. He is definately a sincere Muslim who is seeking the Truth. So, if he phrases some question a bit awkwardly, don't hold it against him. He has been consistently asking questions (even before he converted) and he definately is putting the work in studying.

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