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Us Elections 2012

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Asking me to choose between all these canidates is like asking me how do I want to die with an axe, knife or gun.

That will always be the case with politics and voting (unless you run for office, I suppose there wouldn't be any qualms about voting for yourself).

 

I think that America sees israel like their blessing from God. They believe if they bless israel God will bless them and if they turn their back and curse them, God will do the same to America. They use the Scripture to back this up, but there are many that feel it would be best to let israel completely fend for themsleves. America is actulaly in a catch 22 situation in regards to israel. The Jews own all the major garment centers in NY and all the major diamond exchanges so they have a lot of money and pull in America. You could almost say America is israel.

I see israel like a foreign policy anchor around our necks, dragging us down. I think it is ridiculous to equate the modern state of israel with the covenantal people recording in the Old Testament, aside from being distant relations. Zionists do seem to have a strong lobby here in the US and lots of money from supporters, but it would never be possible without the religious zealotry of certain Protestant groups that see the state in terms of guaranteeing Jesus imminent return and the whole blessings bunk you mentioned.

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We're working on it...We'll see what happens come January.

I wish you guys the best of luck. Since there likely won't be a Democratic primary, maybe I'll give you guys an extra vote in Texas.

 

We should try to be friends with all nations and seek peace, commerce, and honest friendship.

Agreed.

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what is called "israel" in Genesis is not necessarily the "state of israel" today.

 

So what does 'israel' in Genesis interpreted as?

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I don't care what the motivation is if it helps people. And a dollar in Somalia helps a lot more than it will here in the U.S. Besides, do you really think the answer to politics being mixed with humanitarian aid is to cut humanitarian aid?

 

Excuse me for jumping in. Often the case is that it helps in the short term at the cost of the long term. Even in Somalia where is the money going? To the TFG which is only continuing the War and suffering of the Somalis. Even with UN "aid organizations" the country was being prevented from getting back on its feet. As you can read (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&"]here[/url].

 

Just recently al-Shabaab banned many "aid" organizations because they were getting involved politically and even distributing expired food. Humanitarian aid is GREAT but when politics is involved it does more harm than good in most cases.

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So what does 'israel' in Genesis interpreted as?

Jacob, and I suppose by extension, the descendents of Jacob. There is also the organizational principle of a covenant between these people and God

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Excuse me for jumping in. Often the case is that it helps in the short term at the cost of the long term. Even in Somalia where is the money going? To the TFG which is only continuing the War and suffering of the Somalis. Even with UN "aid organizations" the country was being prevented from getting back on its feet. As you can read (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&"]here[/url].

Al-Shabaab didn't seem interested in receiving aid (and they seem fond of expressing this disinterest with guns). I don't think you can really complain that famine assistance wasn't going to them. Besides, it isn't just money being given to the TFG.

 

Just recently al-Shabaab banned many "aid" organizations because they were getting involved politically and even distributing expired food. Humanitarian aid is GREAT but when politics is involved it does more harm than good in most cases.

Tell that to someone starving.

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Jacob, and I suppose by extension, the descendents of Jacob. There is also the organizational principle of a covenant between these people and God

 

Thanks! SC. Some say; God blesses those who stand with the state of israel and curse those who curse it; are they misinterpreting it?.

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Al-Shabaab didn't seem interested in receiving aid (and they seem fond of expressing this disinterest with guns). I don't think you can really complain that famine assistance wasn't going to them. Besides, it isn't just money being given to the TFG.

 

Of course they wanted aid for the people. They allowed many orgs. to continue like one Muslim organization who just delivered and helped the people and did not get involved with handing out expired food or being involved politically. They were doing the best they can to help their people.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736900.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736900.html&[/url]

 

 

Tell that to someone starving.

 

Even if I was to give you that but the drought/famine is something that happened this year what about the years before?

 

Back in 2006 just as Somali farmers brought their grain harvest to market the WFP began the distribution of its entire years grain aid for Somalia. With thousands of tons of free grain available Somali farmers found it almost impossible to sell their harvest and faced disaster.

 

Thousands of angry Somali farmers gathered at WFP distribution centers across Somalia to protest, sometimes violently. In an attempt to calm matters the WFP promised an investigation which in due course announced that yes the WFP had done the Somali farmers wrong and promised they wouldn't do it again.

 

Then in 2007 just as the Somali grain harvest began to arrive in local markets the WFP once again distributed its entire years grain aid, only this time with the Ethiopian army there to protect it. With a four year long on and off again drought since afflicting most of Somalia you could say the WFP helped put the nail in the coffin of Somali agriculture.

 

Small wonder then why the Somali resistance, “The Youth”, Al Shabab, has since kicked the WFP out of most of southern Somalia that they control. It was only a couple of months ago that the WFP had cut the minimum survival food rations for the one million or more Somali refugees it had been feeding by 70% due to a “funding shortfall” yet today they would have us believe that they are desperately concerned for the survival of the Somali people suffering from the drought?

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&[/url]

 

So you see it harms more than good. But my point wasn't just about Somalia. I am talking more broader. Just like the example of Egypt was given and many other countries around the world. The US gives aid to countries where the government eats it up. Even in Pakistan the money that was being poured into the country went into the pockets of government ministers and other people who have power with little to no help being given to the needy. Add to that the political side of it when the US wants to buy allegiances from certain parties and whatnot and it becomes a disaster.

 

Humanitarian aid is perfectly fine and should be encouraged but not when it is like it is now.

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Of course they wanted aid for the people. They allowed many orgs. to continue like one Muslim organization who just delivered and helped the people and did not get involved with handing out expired food or being involved politically. They were doing the best they can to help their people.

And yet they ban UNICEF, the World Health Organisation, UNHCR, the Norwegian Refugee Council, the Danish Refugee Council, German Agency For Technical Co-operation (GTZ), Action Contre la Faim, Solidarity, Saacid and Concern, and the World Food Program. So, how is that working out?

 

Even if I was to give you that but the drought/famine is something that happened this year what about the years before?

I am sure the dying children in Somalia are just as concerned as you are about the geopolitical ramifications of food aid. If you want to get angry and ban the WFP, then ban them when people aren't dying. As for your broader point, I believe it was already an established point of agreement that military aid was not desired.

 

Humanitarian aid is perfectly fine and should be encouraged but not when it is like it is now.

I don't mind having such a discussion, but Al-Shabaab failed its people when it decided to restrict food aid. That is an uncontroversial statement and its facts are counted in the numbers of dead and starving. I know you are fond of Al-Shabaab, or at least you see them in a much more positive light than most, but I don't see how they can escape criticism on this one point.

 

I don't want to make this more harsh than it needs to be, because I do think you have a legitimate point about how aid is conducted, both by the United States and other organizations. I just think that perhaps Somalia is not the best example at this time.

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That will always be the case with politics and voting (unless you run for office, I suppose there wouldn't be any qualms about voting for yourself).

I see israel like a foreign policy anchor around our necks, dragging us down. I think it is ridiculous to equate the modern state of israel with the covenantal people recording in the Old Testament, aside from being distant relations. Zionists do seem to have a strong lobby here in the US and lots of money from supporters, but it would never be possible without the religious zealotry of certain Protestant groups that see the state in terms of guaranteeing Jesus imminent return and the whole blessings bunk you mentioned.

You might see it that way, but it is not the way the leaders of the land in America see it. The do equate God's OT covenant with modern day israel as a covenant that God doesn't break. After all they are the descendants of the OT convenantal people group. History shows that whoever tried to wipe them out in the past got wiped out. They might think that israel is what hold them together as a nation before God.

Edited by BurningLight

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You might see it that way, but it is not the way the leaders of the land in America see it. The do equate God's OT covenant with modern day israel as a covenant that God doesn't break. After all they are the descendants of the OT convenantal people group. History shows that whoever tried to wipe them out in the past got wiped out. They might think that israel is what hold them together as a nation before God.

I think the leaders of the land in America cynically take advantage of these naive beliefs held by many Protestants in order to stay in office. Yes, they are descendants, but the state of israel was not established on the basis of the covenant, but by a UN resolution led by the victorious Allied powers after WWII. And history shows no such thing. The Romans treated with them brutally at times, and went on for hundreds of years after that (tens of hundreds, if you consider that the Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire). And the United States held together before 1948. I haven't seen any improvement in American unity subsequently.

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Speaking of Ron Paul, he's on Jay Leno right now.

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I understand your point. However, any good they might be doing far outweighs the bad. Are you seriously saying that people should be handed with expired, mouldy food? On another forum there were even pictures posted of warehouses of UN, etc where the food was shown to be expired and mouldy. I will try to search it up and post it here. And by them being political they are prolonging Somalia's conflict. You would not want that for your country. Why should they compromise the future and security of their country when they can get aid from other more friendly and less sinister sources? Such as Ummah welfare and many others who get less media attention. Add to this the fact that AS' policies from recent years did a lot of good for the Somali economy and according to al-Shabaab the crisis is being over blown in the western media so they can get their organizations into Somalia for political reasons.

 

In fact one of the major camps they opened for the displaced and needy, 'Ala Yasir'(I think that was the name) which received quiet a few media attention was recently closed because the situation improved:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=SGJLX5TGU4w"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=SGJLX5TGU4w[/url]

 

 

 

And yet they ban UNICEF, the World Health Organisation, UNHCR, the Norwegian Refugee Council, the Danish Refugee Council, German Agency For Technical Co-operation (GTZ), Action Contre la Faim, Solidarity, Saacid and Concern, and the World Food Program. So, how is that working out?

 

Clearly these organizations were not helping their people then. As I've already shown in the posts above. Recently they did ban about 15 or 16 agencies. Some of the reasons(not all) that they gave for this were:

 

- Working vigorously in partnership with several organisations in order to exploit the country of its natural resources.

- Acting as an impediment to the people’s ability to reach long term sustainability through the preservation and management of their natural resources in a self-determined manner.

- Amplifying the refugee crisis in the country and failing to implement durable solutions that satisfactorily resolve the suffering of internally displaced refugees.

- Promoting the fragmentation of the local population through the pursuance of tribal associations in their social interactions and partnerships.

 

Yo would not accept the above for your country so why should the Somali's accept it. And like this article said (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwalesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/12/13/terror-group-somalia-s-only-hope-for-peace-and-stability-91466-29942080/#ixzz1gkltoVv5"]here[/url] they are the only ones who can end this crisis. Problem is the West, including its so called 'aid organizations', are more interested in fighting AS rather than helping the needy.

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Link to the video?

Well it's playing on TV right now. I'll provide a link to the YouTube when it's posted online (Ron Paul supporters are rather quick when it comes to providing YouTube videos of Ron's media appearances). So far, he's doing exceptionally well.

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Link to the video?

Well, until the video gets posted, I'll link to the debate from Thursday night with Ron's answers. They really piled on him regarding foreign policy (starts at around 10:00).

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtu.be/kNfruyVGOe0"]Ron Paul Highlights at the Fox News Debate 12/16/11[/url]

Edited by Wanderer

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Well, until the video gets posted, I'll link to the debate from Thursday night with Ron's answers. They really piled on him regarding foreign policy.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtu.be/kNfruyVGOe0"]Ron Paul Highlights at the Fox News Debate 12/16/11[/url]

 

Yea watched that yesterday. I've been watching all the debates for the last couple of months.. they're interesting. I think Ron Paul's foreign policy will do a lot of good for the US and the World.

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The segment ended only 30 minutes ago. Told you these guys were fast:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_ronpaulflix(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/2011/12/ron-paul-with-jay-leno-dec-16-2011/"]Ron Paul on Jay Leno (12/17/11)[/url]

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I think the leaders of the land in America cynically take advantage of these naive beliefs held by many Protestants in order to stay in office. Yes, they are descendants, but the state of israel was not established on the basis of the covenant, but by a UN resolution led by the victorious Allied powers after WWII. And history shows no such thing. The Romans treated with them brutally at times, and went on for hundreds of years after that (tens of hundreds, if you consider that the Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire). And the United States held together before 1948. I haven't seen any improvement in American unity subsequently.
Maybe you’re right, but the way things look, they seem to believe it too. There is some clue there. It is written in the Bible that those that bless israel God will be bless and those that curse them will be cursed. But it also says he is not a Jew who is one outwardly. History shows no such thing? Are you referring to the Roman general Pompey who subdued Judaea in 63 BCE (after which it became a client kingdom) ? I was thinking more like Hitler and Germany. I mean anyone that tried to wipe out israel as a people have failed, and will continue to because God won't let it happen. You can call that naive; I call it the way I see it from a Biblical perspective. I don't think them being a nation has anything to do with America being blessed. I think America was blessed, because it was founded on Christianity not because of the Jews being America’s allied or a nation. America's is losing the blessing fast, because they are losing their Godly heritage. Edited by BurningLight

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There is some clue there. It is written in the Bible that those that bless israel God will be bless and those that curse them will be cursed.

I don't see the state of israel as synonymous as the covenantal people of israel, so even if I did believe that there was a God blessing people for giving special treatment to the Jews, I wouldn't feel any compulsion to help support the state.

 

But it also says he is not a Jew who is one outwardly. History shows no such thing? Are you referring to the Roman general Pompey who subdued Judaea in 63 BCE (after which it became a client kingdom) ? I was thinking more like Hitler and Germany. I mean anyone that tried to wipe out israel as a people have failed, and will continue to because God won't let it happen. You can call that naive; I call it the way I see it from a Biblical perspective. I don't think them being a nation has anything to do with America being blessed. I think America was blessed, because it was founded on Christianity not because of the Jews being America’s allied or a nation. America's is losing the blessing fast, because they are losing their Godly heritage.

No, I am talking about them being conquered by Pompey in 63 BCE, the put down of their revolt in 66CE, the seige of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in 70CE, the Kitos wars of 115-117 against the diaspora, the razing of Judae in crushing the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-136CE when the Jewish population of central Judaea was mostly killed, sold into slavery, or forced to flee and the Jews were banished from Jerusalem, and finally the crushing of the revolt against Gallus in 351CE. I didn't notice God stopping the Roman empire.

 

And Hitler and Germany were going to be defeated because they lacked the socio-economic resources to win a two front war against the Allied countries. He could have given the Jews lolipops and told them they were the best and he still would have lost. Also, the United States was not founded in Christianity, it was founded on secular enlightenment principles, by men who ranged from Catholics to v arious Protestants to Deists. America is "blessed" because it shoved the previous inhabitants into tiny plots of less productive land and then took the rest along with all the resources from that land and used it to build an empire that spanned the North American continent. Combine this with other political and social innovations (many of which I think were good) and you have a powerful country. All that needed to happen next is for war to ravage their competitors and you have a world superpower. WWI and WWII took care of that for us.

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Thanks! SC. Some say; God blesses those who stand with the state of israel and curse those who curse it; are they misinterpreting it?.

Yes, because the two are not identical.

 

I understand your point. However, any good they might be doing far outweighs the bad.

How much good does it take to outweigh the death of a child from starvation? This is a question no one has been able to answer until now, since all we have to do is look at the good Al-Shabaab has done and divide it by the number of deaths.

 

And if your other "good" sources were enough, then why all the deaths? I think it ridiculous to try and defend such actions by claiming to preserve the future of the country. Such actions were, and are, killing the future of the country. What is a country if not the people who live in it.

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I don't see the state of israel as synonymous as the covenantal people of israel, so even if I did believe that there was a God blessing people for giving special treatment to the Jews, I wouldn't feel any compulsion to help support the state.

No, I am talking about them being conquered by Pompey in 63 BCE, the put down of their revolt in 66CE, the seige of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in 70CE, the Kitos wars of 115-117 against the diaspora, the razing of Judae in crushing the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-136CE when the Jewish population of central Judaea was mostly killed, sold into slavery, or forced to flee and the Jews were banished from Jerusalem, and finally the crushing of the revolt against Gallus in 351CE. I didn't notice God stopping the Roman empire.

 

And Hitler and Germany were going to be defeated because they lacked the socio-economic resources to win a two front war against the Allied countries. He could have given the Jews lolipops and told them they were the best and he still would have lost. Also, the United States was not founded in Christianity, it was founded on secular enlightenment principles, by men who ranged from Catholics to v arious Protestants to Deists. America is "blessed" because it shoved the previous inhabitants into tiny plots of less productive land and then took the rest along with all the resources from that land and used it to build an empire that spanned the North American continent. Combine this with other political and social innovations (many of which I think were good) and you have a powerful country. All that needed to happen next is for war to ravage their competitors and you have a world superpower. WWI and WWII took care of that for us.

You are a history buff. I only said that it was founded on Christianity, because of the declarations made by most of the founding fathers a good 55 of them. In fact, George Washington went as far as to say not to consider yourself American if you would ever attempt to remove religion from our institutions and John Jay Supereme court judge was adamant this was a Christian nation; finally, you couldn't even get in office without a confession of believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior. These are the facts. Look it up for yourself. Put this way, all the founders with maybe the exception of two of them are rolling over in their graves with America stands on Christianity. Edited by BurningLight

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I personally prefer America as a Christian based secular nation then just a secular nation. Many of the sins in Islam are the sins in Christianity. However, the support of israel has just got to go, the bible's reference to israel is not the israel of today. But I also think America should stop pulling funding selectively. israel is well off on it's own. I would keep the aid going to countries who desperately need it such as those in Africa.

Edited by Teckni

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Yes, because the two are not identical.

How much good does it take to outweigh the death of a child from starvation? This is a question no one has been able to answer until now, since all we have to do is look at the good Al-Shabaab has done and divide it by the number of deaths.

 

And if your other "good" sources were enough, then why all the deaths? I think it ridiculous to try and defend such actions by claiming to preserve the future of the country. Such actions were, and are, killing the future of the country. What is a country if not the people who live in it.

 

First of all AS are doing a pretty good job of taking care of their people. I already mentioned the Muslim aid reaching the poor there. They are not letting them just die as many threads on this forum alone prove. Secondly, if you want to blame anyone blame it on the Western aid agencies. Why can't they just do what they're supposed to? Why do they have to become tools of Western foreign policy? If there should be any blame its here.

 

How would you feel if your kid was being fed mouldy expired food that is not even fit for animal consumption? And the people feeding this to you were ruining your country, preventing it from being developed and keeping your people begging for food handouts?? And please, these western aid orgs. are not keeping Somalis alive. Somalia had food before and they will have food now inshAllah with or without the west. Muslims around the world have responded and sent lots of aid already. Allah is sufficient for them.

 

For decades they starved and lived in fear of western backed warlords and as soon as a ray of hope started to shine when the Islamic Courts took over the West again made sure the country stayed in the dark ages. So don't come here and pretend like Western aid organizations are helping Somalis. Even now Ethiopia and Kenya invaded Somalia under blessing from the West. Yet we are supposed to believe they are sending their aid organizations to help people?

 

If these aid organizations wanted to help all they had to do was follow some rules of AS. Like buying food from local Somali farmers and not overseas. Yet they refused, hence, keeping the Somali agriculture in ruin. Keep your(often times mouldy and expired) aid. Your country will probably need it in the future the way it's going.

 

And if your other "good" sources were enough, then why all the deaths?

 

1. Western media blowing it out of proportion

2. The drought is not just within Al-Shabaab controlled areas. It is affecting many other regions and probably not only in Somalia

 

Also, you might have heard recently that Kenyan Army was literally stuck in the mud. When they invaded it rained, making the ground wet, therefore difficult for an Army to move. Yes, that's right it RAINED. Do you think that helped the drought? Do you now see how it's still being blown out of proportion?

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