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SaracenSoldier

Us Elections 2012

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Oh , and the Patriot Act ? I'm all for it . If you're not a terrorist then the Patriot Act will do you no harm . It is necessarry in todays world .

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Oh , and the Patriot Act ? I'm all for it . If you're not a terrorist then the Patriot Act will do you no harm . It is necessarry in todays world .

 

I figured you would be someone who is against freedom, so that comes as no surprise. As someone who has friends who have suffered under the Patriot Act when they aren't terrorists, then that is a lie. But you wouldn't care about people who are simply college students who seek to make the world a better place, would you? No I didn't think so.

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It's all good until they come for you. By that time, there won't be anyone there to speak out for you.

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It's all good until they come for you. By that time, there won't be anyone there to speak out for you.

 

Exactly. Unfortunately this has already happened to some Muslims who are completely innocent. Most Americans like Aligarr will only realize once they get a taste of these laws. Just like how there will be around 30 000 drones over the US by 2020(which was approved by congress recently). Majority of Americans don't even care as long as they get their Big Mac, get to watch the Superbowl and wrestling. They will only realize once its too late and their nation has already become a dictatorship/police state.

 

http://www.washingto...a-sky-near-you/

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Any muslim, just like anyone else living in tne USA , is an American. Every American is entitled to Due Process . You all are familiar with that term , are you not ? The US has not become a police state , nor is it a dictatorship .

I am not a terrorist , nor do I plot against my own country , therefore I do not fear the Patrriot Act , nor does the idea of drones disturb me .

Do you three have something to hide ? If so then indeed you have something to fear from the Patriot Act .

If you have done no wrong there is nothing to fear ,unless you are ignorant of the laws of the country you are living in .To me that sounds like the case with you three .

Instead of being paranoid and portraying yourselves as potential victims . I suggest you familiarize yourselves with the law .

 

Again Saracen Soldier , you display an arrogant contempt for Americans , by the nature of your remarks .

Do you live in the US ? Are you a guest here? A citizen and fellow American ? Or are you sitting across the pond throwing rocks ?

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Any muslim, just like anyone else living in tne USA , is an American. Every American is entitled to Due Process . You all are familiar with that term , are you not ? The US has not become a police state , nor is it a dictatorship .

I am not a terrorist , nor do I plot against my own country , therefore I do not fear the Patrriot Act , nor does the idea of drones disturb me .

Do you three have something to hide ? If so then indeed you have something to fear from the Patriot Act .

If you have done no wrong there is nothing to fear ,unless you are ignorant of the laws of the country you are living in .To me that sounds like the case with you three .

Instead of being paranoid and portraying yourselves as potential victims . I suggest you familiarize yourselves with the law .

 

Again Saracen Soldier , you display an arrogant contempt for Americans , by the nature of your remarks .

Do you live in the US ? Are you a guest here? A citizen and fellow American ? Or are you sitting across the pond throwing rocks ?

 

When I mentioned my friends, who said they were Muslim? Two of my friends have been detained and questioned under the Patriot Act because they are political activists affiliated with the Republican Party. One of them has dual citizenship (UK) like me and tends to travel back and forth much more regularly. That was "suspicious activity" according to authorities and she spent 4 hours being interrogated about why she has to travel all the time since she's a student.

 

With the NDAA from last year, if you weren't paying attention, it tried to throw out due process. Or didn't you hear? It took several court cases to overturn that ridiculous example of despotism on the part of our government.

 

Again, I am one of those that believes in liberty, which we are slowly losing Aligarr. As Ben Franklin said, "If you are willing to exchange freedom for security, you deserve neither." Are you going to argue with one of the greatest minds America ever had produced? All these "security measures" such as the TSA, the bloated Department of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act are things that go against the sense of liberty and freedom Americans have enjoyed for centuries. But you like the idea of having Big Brother watching over you. What about SOPA and PIPA and the new incarnations of them that Congress is debating? Where anything you say online that doesn't conform to what the government thinks puts you at risk?

 

That sounds a lot like how things were in Russia, how things were under Mubarrak in Egypt...in short we are becoming them. I've been questioned once before as well. Mainly because of the fact that I got involved supporting Ron Paul after I had been a Republican activist and election worker back in 2000 and even 2004. Also, what about the blatant disenfranchisement of voters on both political spectrums by the government? That's okay too right? If you want to live under tyranny, go ahead. But many of us won't accept that because we believe in the ideals this country were founded on.

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Either you are a US citizen or you are NOT . IF you are you are entitled to the same due process any American Citizen is entitled to . dNice anecdotal story though , and I'm sure you have not provided all the facts and circumstances . LOL...Republican Activists ...lol...that's funny . I have freinds and buisiness associates who travel regularly , not only to Europe , but also the middle east . One is an accountant for Visa Cards and certifies banks in Saudi Arabia , Qatar , Bahrain , and Yemen . He's been doing it for 15 years now and has NEVER been detained or questioned . So your story is a bit suspicious in that if true you are leaving something out . I myself have traveled to the M.E. several times since 9/11 and NEVER have I been detained or questioned .My neighbor two doors down from my house is an Egyptian who travels to Alexandria atleast 4 times a year as he does buisiness there , he has never had a problem here...in Egypt yes , but never here . LOL....my Dentist's wife is Srebenecia and visits family twice a year there , never has a problem . Most of the convenience stores on my neighborhood are owned and operated by Pakistanis . I am freindly with most of them , who travel regularly back to Pakistan , I've heard no complaints from them . I have two longtime freinds , a couple who do nothing but travel to every imaginable country , as they are retired and have the money to do so , they've NEVER had a problem .

I have absolutely no perception that ANY of my rights have been abused or abridged .

 

So just what is it about "your college freinds " that causes them a problem at airports ????

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LOL....btw , Ive never heard of anyone being questioned because they supported Ron Paul .

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This is the nature of the post 9/11 world .... it's obviously not the way you like but that's the way it is . BTW , re: Ben Franklin's statement [and a good one ] but Ole' Ben never figured on the strain in the gene pool , that would take place over 250 or so years .

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Everything's fine folks. Nothing to see here. Move along.

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Perception is everything , perpetual victims remain so, irregardless of reality .

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In fact it's the new fad .

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As I said, it's all good and wonderful. Anyone who thinks otherwise is crazy.

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sarcasm 's a good thing , it's got built-in deniability .

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Do you deny that everything is fine? If so, what is wrong?

Edited by Wanderer

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Don't push it wanderer , you're not as clever as you may think .

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Aligarr,

 

You're merely assuming I'm trying to be "clever." Where did I ever say I thought I was clever? A little bit of sarcasm helps me relax.

 

I want to genuinely know what you personally think is right with this country, and what you personally think still needs a bit of work. I prefer to first figure out what our common ground is, and from there discuss our differences. Otherwise, we'll just keep going back and forth without making any real progress in the discussion. I'll be honest and civil about all this and do my best to understand you and where you're coming from, and also do my best to showcase to you my personal concerns about our current situation.

 

I'll do my best to be as objective as humanly possible (since 100% objectivity isn't going to happen). If you wish to do the same, then I'll gladly discuss with you every issue, one at a time.

Edited by Wanderer

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Fair enough . I have nothing against the Patriot Act .Given the nature of modern communications and it's misuse , and the fact that the world is virtually a much smaller place ,in addition given the present display of human nature it is necessarry . And after all it is a reaction .

There is more of what is wrong with this country than there is right , but what is right outweighs the wrong . How long that status will last , I do not know .The Bill of Rights are still valid as is the right to redress and as I mentioned before -Due Process .I do not feel these are threatened in anyway , nor do I feel threatened .The freedom in this country is unsurpassed by any other place on the planet . The generosity of this country is unsurpassed . However it's foreign policy leaves muchto be desired in not all but several cases /.In this it creates as many enemies as it does freinds .

So , no , "everything is not allright " but rather as good as its going to get under the present circumstances . And depending on human behavior , that may get better or worse .

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Fair enough . I have nothing against the Patriot Act .Given the nature of modern communications and it's misuse , and the fact that the world is virtually a much smaller place ,in addition given the present display of human nature it is necessarry . And after all it is a reaction .

My first complaint about the Patriot Act is a general one I have about Congress. To me, it is a great disservice to the American people that when these 1000+ page bills come to a floor vote, virtually no representative and no senator actually reads through the entirety of the bill, yet they vote for it without knowing what is in it until days, weeks, or months after the bill is passed. Like when people skim through the headlines of newspapers without digging deeper into the article, elected officials might only read the title of the bills they vote on and just assume the whole bill relates to that topic. Personally, I find it offensive if my elected official doesn't even read what he votes on. To me, the default vote should be "nay," unless the representative or senator has good reason to vote "aye," after reading it.

 

The Patriot Act (hundreds of pages) left committee and was rushed to the House floor on October 24th, passing by an overwhelming majority of representatives, most of whom didn't even have a copy of the bill available to them to read. Yet they voted "aye" probably because the title had the word "Patriot" in it. There was no other information to go on.

 

The second complaint I have is that I'm extremely wary of expanding police power. While it may or may not get abused today, the longer such powers remain, the higher chance some future president will abuse those powers in the name of "security." The United States is not immune from becoming a future dictatorship, and expanding police powers in the hands of the executive branch is one of the ingredients that can lead to the potential rise of a despot. I'd rather err on the side of caution than to risk creating a monster more dangerous than cave dwellers.

 

There is more of what is wrong with this country than there is right , but what is right outweighs the wrong . How long that status will last , I do not know .The Bill of Rights are still valid as is the right to redress and as I mentioned before -Due Process .I do not feel these are threatened in anyway , nor do I feel threatened .

I'm concerned about the militarization of police forces around the country. Time and time again there are news stories about SWAT teams receiving an "anonymous tip" about a drug dealer at address X. The SWAT team busts down the front door in the middle of the night, and guns down the startled homeowner who thinks his home is being burglarized. Then it turns out the police had the wrong house, and an innocent person has been killed with no apology. If there is a dog in the house, you can be sure the police will shoot it down, no matter how small or how restrained it may be. Now I remember something about the "right to face your accuser," who in these cases are these "anonymous tipsters" who remain anonymous. The homeowner (or his/her relative, friend, etc.) had committed no crime, but received no "due process" and had their life extinguished all because an "anonymous tipster" told police that's where a crime was committed.

 

Such events could happen to anyone. How any of that is even "legal" is beyond me. Now I'm not saying every police officer is complicit in these acts; I'm certain many of them are good, upstanding men and women. But the fact that these events happen around the country with some regularity is startling to me.

 

The freedom in this country is unsurpassed by any other place on the planet . The generosity of this country is unsurpassed . However it's foreign policy leaves muchto be desired in not all but several cases /.In this it creates as many enemies as it does freinds .

So , no , "everything is not allright " but rather as good as its going to get under the present circumstances . And depending on human behavior , that may get better or worse .

Individual Americans are quite free with their money when it comes to aiding others in different countries, especially after natural disasters. We're so generous that parasitic elements feed off of that generosity and rake in millions off of suffering (which is unfortunate, but most of the money and supplies still get to where they need to go).

 

Now what the government does is a different matter. Whatever our intelligence agencies and military do in foreign lands is beyond the individual control (or even knowledge) of the average American. When those actions result in the deaths of innocent people or the destruction of property or infrastructure, it's reasonable to assume that those affected by those actions and must live with the consequences of said actions will be a bit more than upset at the United States.

 

For me, more interaction between individual Americans and individuals of other nations needs to increase. If individuals talk to each other and then realize how similar we really are when it comes to life, family, friends, art, etc., perhaps that would be a good first step in figuring out how we can alter our social environments to reduce aberrant human behaviors. Personally, I think most of how people act and think is shaped by their environments. If the environments change (for the "better," whatever that will eventually entail), then you could expect behaviors to change (for the better).

 

Part of what we may be experiencing right now is that because of the Internet, every idea conceived by humanity in virtually all corners of the globe are mixing together, and we're trying to reconcile all of them. It may be a bit of a "culture clash" these next few years (or even decades), but as it becomes more "normal" to interact with people around the world on a daily basis, things may get better.

 

But maybe I'm just a cautious optimist.

Edited by Wanderer

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Politicians are for the most part irresponsible , incompetent and way too partisan . Disdain for one another is nothing new , in fact Adams absolutely hated Jefferson , but they put that aside when it came to the better good of the country . Politicians today cling to partisanship to the detriment of the country . Add some very bad advice and you end up getting into Wars ..the incidents you mention , wrong house raids are due directly to police incompetence , and when they go bad they make the news , however the majority of such raids do get it right .Remember , those raids can not take place without a Judge signing a warrant ,and a warrant is not issued without probable cause .

Interactions across the globe will work only when people are willing to take each other at face value , rather than predisposed bias , false perceptions due to propaganda etc. This of course means people will have to start thinking for themselves .It is the practice of world leaders to incite against and create enemies based on fiction rather than objectivity and facts . The internet is both protagonist and antagonist when it comes to this . It is a source of information as much as it is of misinformation . , and in todays world that actually costs lives . What I find disturbing and discouraging , is the willingness of people to take as bible a link or website " it is true because it is there " . Crosschecking is the essential tool to ferret out the truth . And the internet does not lend tself easily to that . As for the US becoming a Police State ? I dont fear that , as long as Due Process and the Supreme Court exists , that will not happen.

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Fair enough . I have nothing against the Patriot Act .Given the nature of modern communications and it's misuse , and the fact that the world is virtually a much smaller place ,in addition given the present display of human nature it is necessarry . And after all it is a reaction .

There is more of what is wrong with this country than there is right , but what is right outweighs the wrong . How long that status will last , I do not know .The Bill of Rights are still valid as is the right to redress and as I mentioned before -Due Process .I do not feel these are threatened in anyway , nor do I feel threatened .The freedom in this country is unsurpassed by any other place on the planet . The generosity of this country is unsurpassed . However it's foreign policy leaves muchto be desired in not all but several cases /.In this it creates as many enemies as it does freinds .

So , no , "everything is not allright " but rather as good as its going to get under the present circumstances . And depending on human behavior , that may get better or worse .

 

The fool is blind. Since you do not fear the Patriot Act perhaps you could explain it to me because I know you have read it. I am a political science major thus I find this position rather curious because most polls show that the majority of Americans disagree with you and I know that my fellow southrons do, naturally. I, personally, will never agree with a law that allows government agencies to arrest and detain fellow Americans without a proper charge and trial. If you think due process is still being used you might want to look into Guantanamo. Most of those there still have not seen a single day in court despite years behind bars. If you want to try and claim it is a state of war then you have to explain why there has not been a declaration of war which, naturally, you know has to be made by congress and not the executive branch.

 

If you are actually trying to say that the Patriot Act is necessary in order to fight terrorism then I ask you simply how was it that the F.B.I. was able to nearly destroy the largest and most organized terrorist group of its time in the K.K.K.? They didn't have the Patriot Act. Or would you like to try and claim that the Klan is not terrorists? Although your strain in the gene pool statement sounds like classical propaganda perpetuated by groups like the Council of Concerned Citizens.

 

The Patriot Act is dangerous and should be disabled if not at least reworded.

 

Now, with that said I will say that as for presently the country is not a police state although it is teetering. We seem to be at a cross roads at a present where we could break the barrier into a whole new state of human rights and democratic state but we could go the other way and turn into the most powerful fascist or socialist society the world has ever seen. To be honest I cannot say that I am wholly against communism or socialism as I fully understand the concepts to be. The only problem with communism is the easy and quick means with which one can abuse said system and turn it into something it was never meant to be although we appear to be the same way presently with the republic. Corruption is wide spread and if anyone would open their eyes they will notice that it is not just the U.S. that is cracking down on its populace. This is becoming a common theme throughout the globe at present. With things like internet and television though people simply do not care enough to stand up, for the most part. When people decide they want to organize and let the governments of the globe know that they will not be controlled but heard then maybe things will change.

 

I, personally think that if governments simply tried sympathy for others and tried to understand where other governments, groups, and populaces were coming from we would have a much better world but until that happens things will continue to deteriorate. All anyone wants is to feel like others understand, in other words ...hope. Too many feel that there is no hope & when people are thorough in believing that then dangerous times fall upon us.

 

Lastly, I would like to say I think it is high time we rethink our form of government in this country. I am not suggesting this form of government or that one but simply a discussion because obviously something about this one is not working presently.

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Your fellow "southrons " are descendent from an ideology that goes back to plantation times .There ate two elitist groups in the US , Southern Elitists who think it their god given right to doi whatever is necessarry to improve their own condition at the expense of the lesser population , and there is the Yankee Elitists who by an original different type of christians ethics , felt that if one was rich and prosperous they bore a responsibility to to the less fortunate among them . Indeed this is at the heart of the present political debacle in the US . I am not impressed by your "book knowledge " as to your thoughts on the Patriot Act .....the gene pool has indeed been strained since the times of Franklin and the Founding Fathers , the situations today were not even dreamed of in those days let alone provisions to deal with them .

Your comment on communism is a bit simplistic coming from a college educated person . Hello ...you are living in a capitalistic country which is anethema to communism . The problem is the abuse of capitalism , for the ethics involved are being ignored .And the greatest abuse is coming from the Southern Elitists who think it their sacred duty to control . But again , the system of checks and balances is STILL in place in this country .

I have read the Patriot Act in its entirety and there are no Constitutional violations , so long as the rules are followed , and the basics of Habeous Corpus ,and Probabale Cause in issuing warrants are followed . Since the enemy is not defined by national borders , any particular ethnicity nor wears no uniform , the Patriot Act was an inevitable and NECESSARRY nexus .

BTW , most Americans ...lol...and what you call southrons [curious name] are against it . precisely because they have not read it thus misunderstand it . Then there are those who are against ANYTHING the government initiates , and those who are against ANYTHING Obama signs his name to . And lastly there are the hopelessly ignorant who read it and still have no idea of what it is saying . Oh well . I dont think it goes far enough . The internet and various means of todays communications are a double-edged sword which can be used for good or evil . And since people are in fact getting killed and terrorism is indeed an existential threat , the Patriot Act is absolutely necessarry . If one is doing no wrong , one has nothing to fear . As for any anomolies in proceedure , every police force in the world by nature of its function , has the right to question and in cases deyain fora limited amount of time those suspected of attempting or committing a crime . Those detention times vary around tye globe , but charges must be filed should thattime be exceeded else the suspect must be released . In the US , that "time " is minimal compared to the rest of the world , even the U.K. These rules apply to US citizens .

 

So please specify any particular part of the Patriot Act that I should be fearfull of .

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Firstly, a southron is not the southern elitists you speak of, if you were as educated as you think you are then you would know that the southrons are the ones that are loyal to the constitution and want state rights and believe and advocate for the ideal of the forming of a seperate nation formed by the current southern U.S. states.

 

Secondly, the southern elitists you are talking about are no different than the so called northern elitists. They go to the same clubs, drink the same drink and collect the same fees from the growing poor of this country. If you were to start pointing out your so called southrons who are as you say "southern elitists" I guarantee I could show how they are not true southrons.

 

thirdly, if we are going to go into the patriot act in full detail start a new thread and I will give you one after another and unlike some who simply talk you will find I am open to truth as I believe truth to be absolute and not subjective. If I am wrong in my assessment then I am wrong. But, right now I can point out one portion as an example of what I am talking about which is the sec. 106. which gives the president near monarchical power.

 

fourthly, I am aware that this is a capitalistic society and yes I was born into it but as I read more and learn more about societies of the past, certain ideals, and concepts presented in the Bible, and the Qur'an I am beginning to realize that capitalism can only lead to downfall as it exposes itself to greed whereas socialism and capitalism do as well they at least (in their true form and not a twisted version) make the individual think about his community and his fellow man instead of seeking after only himself. In fact what you were talking about with the elitists goes right to my point, people of wealth so consumed with gathering more wealth that they persecute their fellow man and cause more hardship than good.

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No you have just proved to me , you know nothing of what you're talking about , notyhing about the history of the south going back beyond the formation of the United States, nor after . You also know nothing of the social contract which is taught [or atleast used to be ] in all the great buisiness schools in rthis country.

The Elitists of this country , are divided in those two groups , no one said they incliuded the working , middle or poor class . The MONEY in this country , the Big money falls into one of those two groups , neither of which you understand .

Besides all that .....lol...what the heck is a " Southron " ?

States Rights was the battle cry of the Confederacy , the excuse to go to war , but what it realy was in actuality was the preservation of the staus quo as far as slavery goes .

You're either kidding , pretending to be an American from the South, or just plain ignorant of facts and American History .

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"Southron" is a generic term meaning "a person from the south." It's not used as commonly as it used to be, but it has been used to mean a person from the southern United States in general. There aren't any "elitist" connotations to the word that I'm aware of.

 

I would like to say that one can't really claim that the United States has a "capitalist" economy as there has been government interference in the marketplace for the past 100 years or so. Most describe it as a "mixed economy" with elements of capitalism and elements of a command economy. As long as there are bailouts, subsidies, government-backed loans, etc., we cannot really be described as a free market, capitalistic economy. You could, however, call it a "corporatist" economy in which corporations and government work closely together and officials are heavily influenced by corporations. That's getting a bit too close to fascism, the marriage of corporations and the state, for my tastes...

 

The issue I have with socialism is the idea that you're not really entitled to the fruits of your labor if you're even moderately successful. If you become successful, then suddenly your property can get confiscated by the state and transformed into a "public good" depending on what you own. I see competition as a healthy thing for an economy as competing firms battle it out to provide the best products for the lowest price to the consumers, who ultimately benefit.

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