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Cruorem_Deus

The Value Of An Infinite Afterlife...

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Um, I just explained where morality comes from:

 

And I had just explained to you why your sense or basis of morality holds no water when it comes to real crunch. A group of thieves that stick together could argue that stealing is good for their survival and evolution and who are you to argue or point out to them that they are 'morally wrong'?

 

And what if you'ere wrong, and the Hindus got it right?

 

What if you're wrong and the Christians got it right?

 

What if you got it wrong and the Ancient Egyptians were right?

 

What if you got it wrong and the Aztecs were right?

 

Your religion isn't the only religion in the world. Even if Islam WAS the only religion in the world, what if your particular denomination is wrong, and another denomination is right?

 

I could add any other religion to that list, and there are 100,000s of them.

 

You'd be the loser burning in Hell.

 

Your argument doesn't hold water.

 

The most basic and fundamental thing here is, to look at the evidence, which means if you want to claim soemthing to be the truth then you must have the evidence for it and that evidence must be put on trial and be subjected to scrutiny..this applies to Islam and all the other 100,000s of whatever that you can list, including your own..

 

ard

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And I had just explained to you why your sense or basis of morality holds no water when it comes to real crunch. A group of thieves that stick together could argue that stealing is good for their survival and evolution and who are you to argue or point out to them that they are 'morally wrong'?

 

So "groups of theives" aren't the same species?

What part of "WE ARE A SOCIAL SPECIES WHO HAD TO LIVE TOGETHER TO SURVIVE." don't you get? Morality is all about maintaining a peaceful co-existence for security of both the individual and society as a whole.

 

If you steal, you're stealing from someone. You're having an negative effect on their life, and by extension, society.

 

What is so difficult to understand about that? Seriously?

 

The most basic and fundamental thing here is, to look at the evidence, which means if you want to claim soemthing to be the truth then you must have the evidence for it and that evidence must be put on trial and be subjected to scrutiny..this applies to Islam and all the other 100,000s of whatever that you can list, including your own..

 

ard

 

Firstly, I don't have a religion.

 

Secondly, my position is a rejection of your statement that "Islam is true", it's you making the positive claim and me saying "I don't believe you.".

 

I have absolutely no reason to believe Islam is true, why should I without you providing any evidence?

 

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.".

 

You assert that Islam is true without evidence, so I dismiss it without evidence. If someone came up to you and said "Odin is real.", you wouldn't believe them would you? ou'd expect them to provide evidence to support that statement, wouldn't you?

 

Why should I be any different with Islam

 

The burden of proof lays squarely on your shoulders. It's up to you to produce the evidence. Simply saying "If i'm wrong, then it's no loss, if you're wrong you're burning in Hell." is not evidence. I've just said why that's wrong, and why it's a false dichotomy, and as to be expected you completely evaded addressing the point I made. Typical.

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If morality comes from Allah, and we get that morality from the Qu'ran, then what does the Qu'ran say about the following:

 

Dumping nuclear waste in the sea.

Graffiti, or "tagging".

Testing cosmetic products on animals.

Human cloning.

 

Yet, all these things are considered morally wrong.

 

Why are they considered morally wrong if the Qu'ran says nothing about them?

 

Because they arose in society after the Qu'ran was written, and as such our morality has had to evolve parralel to our society.

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So "groups of theives" aren't the same species?

What part of "WE ARE A SOCIAL SPECIES WHO HAD TO LIVE TOGETHER TO SURVIVE." don't you get? Morality is all about maintaining a peaceful co-existence for security of both the individual and society as a whole.

If you steal, you're stealing from someone. You're having an negative effect on their life, and by extension, society.

What is so difficult to understand about that? Seriously?

That is not so difficult at all, what I was trying to point out to you is, from your stand of point, morallity is subjected to your (or a group of you) own whims and fancy. As an eaxample, let say a few years down the road, you'll be 90 and the the society decides that it is morally correct to cull or kill those 90 or over, would that be morally right or wrong to you? A clearer example would be, not that long ago in your society, abortion was morally wrong, yet now it is morally right or acceptable, which one which? Is morallity is all about a social species living together to survive? I don't know aboout you but that sounds a little shallow to me..

 

I have absolutely no reason to believe Islam is true, why should I without you providing any evidence?

 

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.".

 

You assert that Islam is true without evidence, so I dismiss it without evidence. If someone came up to you and said "Odin is real.", you wouldn't believe them would you? ou'd expect them to provide evidence to support that statement, wouldn't you?

 

Why should I be any different with Islam

 

The burden of proof lays squarely on your shoulders. It's up to you to produce the evidence. Simply saying "If i'm wrong, then it's no loss, if you're wrong you're burning in Hell." is not evidence. I've just said why that's wrong, and why it's a false dichotomy, and as to be expected you completely evaded addressing the point I made. Typical.

 

On the contrary, Islam comes with evidence, which is the Quran. That is my evidence for the basis that Islam is the truth. What is yours?

 

If morality comes from Allah, and we get that morality from the Qu'ran, then what does the Qu'ran say about the following:

Dumping nuclear waste in the sea.

Graffiti, or "tagging".

Testing cosmetic products on animals.

Human cloning.

Yet, all these things are considered morally wrong.

Why are they considered morally wrong if the Qu'ran says nothing about them?

Because they arose in society after the Qu'ran was written, and as such our morality has had to evolve parralel to our society.

 

There you go again.. Let me assure you that all those things that you mentioned above are fully covered in Islam, if it is mentioned that stealing is wrong then it would be rather dumb to ask what about stealing a car, a watch, money or millions of other things wouldn't it?

 

ard

Edited by RAHIMI

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That is not so difficult at all, what I was trying to point out to you is, from your stand of point, morallity is subjected to your (or a group of you) own whims and fancy. As an eaxample, let say a few years down the road, you'll be 90 and the the society decides that it is morally correct to cull or kill those 90 or over, would that be morally right or wrong to you? A clearer example would be, not that long ago in your society, abortion was morally wrong, yet now it is morally right or acceptable, which one which? Is morallity is all about a social species living together to survive? I don't know aboout you but that sounds a little shallow to me..

 

It's clear you don't actually understand what I'm saying.

 

That "Small group" is OUR ENTIRE SPECIES.

 

Morality is subjective, everyone has theuir own morality.

 

If what you're saying is true, then why are the Islamic terrorists, and also organisations like Islam Against Terrorism?

 

Why don't all Muslims all have the exact same morality?

 

What is shallow, is that you think all morality comes from a book, that everyone should have the exact same morals, with no progression, just follow a book and do what the book says. That's shallow because it shows you're incapable of thinking for yourself - having to be dictated what to think by a book.

 

On the contrary, Islam comes with evidence, which is the Quran. That is my evidence for the basis that Islam is the truth. What is yours?

 

A book is not evidence. Claiming that the Qu'ran is evidence for Islam is like claiming that The Lord of The Rings is evidence for Sauron. It's stupid.

 

It's like saying every book ever written is evidence that everything in that book is true. Your Qu'ran is nothing special or amazing, it's just a book.

 

And what do you mean "What is yours?" I don't need evidence. I'm not making a positive statement.

 

There you go again.. Let me assure you that all those things that you mentioned above are fully covered in Islam, if it is mentioned that stealing is wrong then it would be rather dumb to ask what about stealing a car, a watch, money or millions of other things wouldn't it?

 

Ok, where does the Qu'ran mention the morality of dumping toxic waste in the ocean?

 

Where does it mention testing cosmetic products on animals?

 

Don't give me any bull, of course the Qu'ran doesn't mention those things. They're moral issues that cropped up LONG after the Qu'ran was written. Yet we have moral standpoints on them.

 

If all morality came from a book, then our morality would never progress or evolve as our society does. As new things arise, as we gain new technology, our morality needs to develop and become more complex. Your "All morality comes from the Qu'ran" model could never account for that.

 

If issues such as the morality of human cloning, nuclear pollution and animal testing then show me where in the Qu'ran it mentions them, and where it say they're morally wrong.

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In Paradise, we will be in total happiness and satisfaction and there will be no boredom. We will be there with body and soul. If you don't want to go there then fine, I am ready to take your property. In Paradise, we live with body and soul. We eat for pleasure. We drink for pleasure. There is no impurity such as spitting and answering the call of nature ect. There will be no acts of worship. It is the vacation from all the duties. There will be no boredom at all, because God Almighty will be our Host forever. The people of the lower gardens will see Allah once a week, but the people of the higher gardens will see his Face twice a day. This alone make the stay in Paradise special. There is no pain necessary to be alive because Allah replaced that with something better. It will be a mixture of physical, psychological, and social pleasure. There will be a lot of socializing. We are able to meet with the angels, the prophets, and with other people. We can meet with the members of our communities and celebrate our success. We will be with our spouses. Clothes will be picked up from trees. There will be gardens of gold and silver. The people of Paradise will have access to windows. From that we are able to see hellfire from a save place an see how people suffer there. We see how a person is forced by dark angels to drink boiling oil and mercury and how it melts away all the guts. We will be able to talk to people of hellfire.

 

In Paradise there is no boredom, because the bliss and tranquility constantly increases for eternally and in hellfire for infinite time the suffering is constantly increasing.

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Um, yeah... constantly increasing forever.

 

It's impossible for the limited human mind to grasp the concept of "forever", but suffice to say it's a very long time.

 

It's no use sayin how amazing Heaven would be or how bad Hell would be, eventually you'd get used to the increased pleasure/pain. It could take 500,000,000,000 billion years, but it couldtake twice that, but "forever" allows for that to happen.

 

Besides, in order to suffer pain you need a nervous system.

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Anyway, if the pain is increasing, then it gives you more opportunity to get used to it.

 

For example, if you try to boil something alive, and dump it in a pot of boiling water, chances are it'll jump out. But turn the heat up gradually and it won't even notice.

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It's no use sayin how amazing Heaven would be or how bad Hell would be, eventually you'd get used to the increased pleasure/pain. It could take 500,000,000,000 billion years, but it couldtake twice that, but "forever" allows for that to happen.

 

Cruorem Deus, like I said before, if we are going to suppose that Heaven and Hell were created by a God, and that God created man as well, then obviously....

 

He is the ONLY one who is able to create something that will cause perpetual happiness/suffering, in the same way that He is the one who has limited our happiness/pain endurance in this world. As I've said before, suspend what you know of this world. You cannot judge something supernatural by the laws of the physical world.

 

You cannot know what state of existence you will be in after "500,000,000,000 billion years" when you have yet to experience, I would assume, 80 years.

 

Every time you argue this point, I'm reminded of a man who lives in a desert, and is trying to argue that the ocean doesn't exist because that much water can't exist in one place. That the entire world is like the desert he lives in.

 

The afterlife is not like the world you currently live in.

 

Besides, in order to suffer pain you need a nervous system.

 

The occupants of Hellfire will be reformed, over and over, for eternity. They will never grow numb to the pain because their nervous system will always be remade.

 

It's not possible to grow habituated to overwhelming agony. You might pass out, but there is no such luxury in Hellfire.

 

Salam.

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It's clear you don't actually understand what I'm saying.

That "Small group" is OUR ENTIRE SPECIES.

Morality is subjective, everyone has theuir own morality.

If what you're saying is true, then why are the Islamic terrorists, and also organisations like Islam Against Terrorism?

Entire species? And in the same breath you talk about why there are ‘Islamic terrorists’ and ‘Islamic Anti-Terrorism’? Point of the matter is, because there is such a thing as truth and falsehood. In my abortion example above, if you lived in the era where there is an overlap between abortion is moral and abortion is immoral, what would be the basis of your stand? Your answer would be ‘to my whims and fancy’. Hence to you, there is no such thing as absolute morality, morality becomes something that evolves, fashion or flavor of the day, or what kind of stuff the society being brainwashed or exposed with on TV etc. Hence using your rational, there is nothing immoral about the Nazis as a society in committing genocide against the Jews, the homosexuals, the blacks etc..

The thing is, there is such a thing as absolute morality, murder of the innocents, stealing, robbing, raping would always be immoral regardless of anything. This kind of flies on your ‘ always evolving, flavor of the day’ stand of point don’t you think?

 

Why don't all Muslims all have the exact same morality?

 

Because each human (not just Muslims) is given free choice and will be held responsible for the choices that they make. Which means each human has to choose between right and wrong based on his set of belief (rational or irrational). If a Muslim choose to commit an immoral act against what Islam teaches, does that has anything to do with Islam being wrong and Islam is to be blame instead of the person?

 

What is shallow, is that you think all morality comes from a book, that everyone should have the exact same morals, with no progression, just follow a book and do what the book says. That's shallow because it shows you're incapable of thinking for yourself - having to be dictated what to think by a book.

 

If morality is about ‘society deciding what is the best for their survival’, then what has ‘taking care of fully comatose/brain dead people in hospital, be kind to animals, taking care of old/aged/’useless’ people etc etc has anything to do with the survival of that particular society? Absolutely nothing, if anything these people and animals are using space and resources required by the ‘fitter’ part of the society, yet the ‘truth’ says, it is immoral not to do so, hence the shallowness on your definition of morality IMO.

 

A book is not evidence. Claiming that the Qu'ran is evidence for Islam is like claiming that The Lord of The Rings is evidence for Sauron. It's stupid.

It's like saying every book ever written is evidence that everything in that book is true. Your Qu'ran is nothing special or amazing, it's just a book.

 

OK, in your everyday life, what laws do you follow? It says you cannot run a red light, if you are taken to court for the offense, would you then argue that the law is not valid since it is written in the book somewhere? How ridiculous would it be if you were to tell the judge, it is just a book written decades ago and it make more sense to you to stop when the light is green..

 

And what do you mean "What is yours?" I don't need evidence. I'm not making a positive statement.

 

Again, it boils down to truth and falsehood. If someone claims something to be the truth and you come along and say that it is false, you as well as that person, would need to come with evidence to support the claim, simple as that..

 

Ok, where does the Qu'ran mention the morality of dumping toxic waste in the ocean?

 

Where does it mention testing cosmetic products on animals?

 

Don't give me any bull, of course the Qu'ran doesn't mention those things. They're moral issues that cropped up LONG after the Qu'ran was written. Yet we have moral standpoints on them.

 

If all morality came from a book, then our morality would never progress or evolve as our society does. As new things arise, as we gain new technology, our morality needs to develop and become more complex. Your "All morality comes from the Qu'ran" model could never account for that.

 

If issues such as the morality of human cloning, nuclear pollution and animal testing then show me where in the Qu'ran it mentions them, and where it say they're morally wrong.

 

First of all, Quran makes it clear that it is a source of guidance for those who reflects and thinks, in essence, you need to apply a little rationality and thinking. 2ndly, Quran also makes it clear that it is applicable as source of guidance from the moment it was revealed to the end of time/humanity as we know it. Hence mentioning toxic waste, cosmetic testing etc would not make any sense to earlier people.

What would be applicable to people of all ages would be, for example,

Islam teaches that removing obstructions,rubbish etc from public road is an act of obedience to Allah , hence vice verse the act of polluting, damaging would be an act of disobedience. Many example in Islams with regard to people who would be punished for their cruel acts against animals and people who would be rewarded for their kind acts to animals etc, all these are quite sufficient to address what you raised up above.

 

p.s I reread my previous post and noticed the word ‘dumb’ in there. That was rather inbecoming of me, more so in the month of ramadhan, and for that I sincerely apologise..

Edited by RAHIMI

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