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Cruorem_Deus

The Value Of An Infinite Afterlife...

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One thing that's always confused me about the religious that believe in an infinite afterlife, is that they place so much value on living forever.

 

I mean, they promise you with eternal happiness and everything you could dream of for all eternity, yet threaten you with eternal suffering and hellfire.

 

In both cases, you're living forever. On one hand, you have living in eternal bliss and on the other you have eternal suffering.

 

Again, in both cases, you'd have either/or forever. Wouldn't eternal bliss get boring, eventually? Not just for a year, not just for a decade, or a centuary or a millenium, but forever. Forever's a very long time. Wouldn't you eventually crave pain and anguish just to remind you that you are, infact, alive? After all, it takes the bad to realise how much the good is worth.

 

Also, if you spent forever in eternal suffering, eventually, wouldn't you "get used to it", so to speak? I mean, there's only so many ways you can suffer, and in an eternity, you'd suffer all of them so much that eventually you'd get used to it.

 

Heaven or Hell, in both instances you'd get bored.

 

However, if you knew that after you died, you ceased to exist, if you knew that the end was the end, and after that it was "nothing", wouldn't you feel better about it? I mean, if you're going to live forever in either of these circumstances, doesn't that make this live here, the life you know you have, the life that you're living now, worthless?

 

Here's an analogy. If you have a millionare, someone with as much money as they coulh ope for, and you have a hobo. A homeless person without a penny to their name.

 

Give each of them say... £10.

 

To the millionare, that £10 would be next to nothing, but to the hobo, that £10 would mean a lot.

 

Give a man an infinate amount of life after he dies, and his mortal life means nothing.

 

Give a man one, single, mortal life, without an eternal life afterwards, and he'll make the most of the 70~80 years he has.

 

What's 70~80 years compared to eternity?

 

What's 70~80 years if they're the only 70~80 years you'll ever have?

 

In both instances, who's going to enjoy their life more? Who's going to make the most of their life?

 

We all know the answer, and that answer is what I'm asking you to refute.

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PropellerAds

This is actually one of the things that Islam teaches us; the enjoyment of this life is fleeting. Not just in the sense that we will all die, but that the pleasures are not permanent. There are constant ups and downs. There is nothing in this world that will keep a human being in a constant, unchanging state of happiness, be it money, family, freedom, power, etc. And nothing in this world will give satisfaction at an even rate.

 

But when a person has passed this physical plane of existence, that "restlessness" (I use the term loosely) inside him disappears. He has attained inner peace. Not only that, but the riches of Heaven are not even remotely close to those we have experienced in this universe. They will never bore him.

 

Islam teaches us that happiness is ever-increasing in Paradise; it is never on the decline. If we are to assume that God was powerful enough to create Heaven, then we will also assume that He created man. And from that, we can conclude that He knows what will make man so pleased and content enough that his pleasure will always grow.

 

In short, man in this world is not the same man he will be in the next world. And God knows our nature better than we know ourselves.

 

Salam.

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If "man in this world is not the same man in the next world", then will I still be me? Will the man in this world still be the same man in the next, or will that man be someone else?

 

I mean, the unhappiness gives value to the happiness, I'd rather be happy, knowing I could potentially be unhappy than knowing I could never be unhappy. The possiblity of not being happy gives the happiness I do feel value.

 

In a real of infinite happiness, and absolutely no unhappiness, how could one ever truely be happy? That happiness would seem so... artificial.

 

You have to remember that this "pleasure will always grow.", forever. And ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever... ad infinitum.

 

How could I possibly appreciate that pleasure without the pain and suffering to compare it to?

 

After, maybe, 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 billion years, I might just have to turn emo and start cutting myself, just to feel the pain, just to make me appreciate the pleasure.

 

But with the natire of infinity, I could cut billions and billions of arms, I could feel each and every cut and each and every cut would remind me how good the pleasure of heaven is.

 

But that wouldn't matter.

 

Because eventually I'd grow numb to that pain.

 

I argue that a mortal life that ends permanently is far more worthwhile than a life of infinate happiness. I'd rather feel happy for 70~80 years, than feel happy forever. This life, with its pain and suffering, makes the pleasure and happiness I feel in this life far more valueable than it would if I had just the pleasure and happiness for all eternity.

 

We need the suffering, and we need the happiness to be finite.

 

A small amount of a resource is worth more than an infinate amount of a resource.

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It's hard for me to not go off on a tangent here, about how the crime should fit the punishment, and how an infinate reward would result in infinate obedience, but I'll leave those for aother thread, another time.

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the best of all charms of heavewn will be glimpses of Allah'slah in person,allowed eacgh friday and that would make any other 'bliss' meaningless, but then Allah will cause the heaven dwellers to forget what they saw so thwey could enjoy the other heavenly pleasures

this will go on each friday

and since Allah is infinite

the charms will never end

hell:if nothing else, will lack this Greatest of all charms

i was not answering any posts here

jusat posting additional info

alhamdulillah am in medina munawwara this minute

salaam

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Three things, Cruorem:

 

1. I've already gone over the "infinity" aspect of your concerns in the "concept of hell" thread.

2. It's not like people in heaven will suddenly forget the suffering they experienced on earth. Just because you have nothing in the present with which to make a comparison doesn't mean that you have no frame of reference in your knowledge altogether.

3. Truth trumps. It doesn't make the TINIEST little difference whether the idea of heaven or of oblivion sounds more appealing, only whether it's the way things happen to be. "I don't like the sound of this," has never been a valid argument for believing or disbelieving in anything.

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If "man in this world is not the same man in the next world", then will I still be me?

 

Think of it this way. When you are a child, there is much you don't comprehend. Once you grow into adulthood, you are the same individual, but you have gained wisdom and knowledge. This changed you, and matured you. The afterlife will change all of us, because we will finally see and grasp things that were beyond our comprehension in this life. It doesn't mean we are no longer the same people. We simply become enlightened.

 

I mean, the unhappiness gives value to the happiness, I'd rather be happy, knowing I could potentially be unhappy than knowing I could never be unhappy

 

Yes, unhappiness gives value to happiness -- only in this universe. In the next, that happiness is multiplied in ways you couldn't imagine. There is no longer a necessity for suffering/sorrow in order to contrast with pleasure and happiness.

 

In a real of infinite happiness, and absolutely no unhappiness, how could one ever truely be happy? That happiness would seem so... artificial.

 

At this moment, that happiness seems artificial to you because it is completely beyond your comprehension. In the same way that a child would find no happiness in many adult pleasures (and I mean nothing perverted by this) because he doesn't comprehend them. My point is that you have not reached a point where your mind has experienced this new life, and therefore, it might be a bit premature to make any conclusions.

 

You have to remember that this "pleasure will always grow.", forever. And ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever... ad infinitum.

 

How could I possibly appreciate that pleasure without the pain and suffering to compare it to?

 

After, maybe, 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 billion years, I might just have to turn emo and start cutting myself, just to feel the pain, just to make me appreciate the pleasure.

 

Well, ask yourself this.

 

If God is able to create a universe where unhappiness is counterbalanced by happiness, and happiness is constantly fleeting, can't He create a universe that is filled with things that stimulate our senses and fill the gap in our souls, to the extent of rendering us into a state of constant, everlasting happiness?

 

Think about it. You are who you are right now because of what you have experienced. You believe unhappiness is necessary to appreciate happiness because that is how this universe functions. I mean, you say that after years

 

and years

 

and years

 

and years

 

and years

 

of perpetual happiness, that happiness will INDUCE unhappiness? Or that the happiness will run out?

 

It never does. There will never be a moment where you will feel that you have to hurt yourself in order to appreciate health. Because that appreciation for health will never diminish in any way.

 

My advice to you is to suspend what you know in this world when you try to understand anything beyond it. Because in the afterlife, your eyes will open in a way that you never thought possible.

 

Salam.

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Either way, what if you're wrong?

 

If you believe you're going to live forever, then doesn't that completely devalue this life?

 

Like I said, we get 70-90 odd years here, in this life, if we're lucky. Doesn't it make more sense to make the most of this life, rather than hoping for something that you can't possibly know is true or not until after this life? If you life forever, what's 80 odd years in comparison? It's nothing.

 

Going back to my analogy with the hobo and the millionare, that £10 means absolutely nothing to the millionare, whereas that £10 would hold much greater value to the homeless person with nothing.

 

The same can be said of life, to the person with an infinate supply of life 80 years means absolutely nothing, but to someone who dies and that's it, knowing that his life is limited, he makes much more out of it because he doesn't want to waste it. The person who ceases to exist when they die will always have this life mean more to them. It is after all, all they'll ever have.

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Once again, this is about what is and isn't true, not what would be most "meaningful". If you're intellectually honest then you should believe in whatever seems likiliest to be true, no matter how much it may seem to degrade this life, no matter how fearful it may make the next sound to you, and conversely, however much of a comfort its next life may sound like to you if you are another sort. Fact is all that matters. The rest is window dressing. And I establish in article after article of my site reasons why Islam is evidently God's true religion.

 

You speak as though making the most of this life and being concerned with your place in the hereafter are mutually exclusive concepts. They're not. In fact, there is a very good reason why the Koran always speaks of good in this world along with good in the next. I believe the Christian theologian C.S. Lewis put it best: "Aim at heaven and you get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither."

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Once again, this is about what is and isn't true, not what would be most "meaningful". If you're intellectually honest then you should believe in whatever seems likiliest to be true, no matter how much it may seem to degrade this life, no matter how fearful it may make the next sound to you, and conversely, however much of a comfort its next life may sound like to you if you are another sort. Fact is all that matters. The rest is window dressing. And I establish in article after article of my site reasons why Islam is evidently God's true religion.

 

You speak as though making the most of this life and being concerned with your place in the hereafter are mutually exclusive concepts. They're not. In fact, there is a very good reason why the Koran always speaks of good in this world along with good in the next. I believe the Christian theologian C.S. Lewis put it best: "Aim at heaven and you get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither."

 

What is most likely to be true, is that when you die all consciousness and thought processes stop, you lose all motory function and you begin to decompose.

 

After that, there's no evidence to suggest there is anything, so not only is one, single, mortal life the most likely situation, it's also the only likely situation.

 

Every major religion and the vast majority of minor religions all have myths and fables about an afterlife, but to this day, without any evidence supporting any of them, they're all just as likely as eachother.

 

But what I'm getting at, is that in order to get the most out of this life, it makes the most sense to not believe in an infinite afterlife.

 

He'd've been more accurate in saying "Aim at Heaven and Earth seems small and insignificant.".

 

Ultimately, all you can do is believe in an afterlife, you can't know it exists until you die. There's no evidence to support an afterlife whatsoever, so belief in an infinite afterlife devalues this life completely.

 

Why should this life matter to anyone if they're gonna live forever?

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Which claim do you think requires backing up?

 

That there's no evidence for an afterlife?

 

That you can't know there's an afterlife until you die?

 

That all you can do is believe and have "faith" in an afterlife?

 

What am I supposed to say? These things are pretty obvious...

 

I guess a good way of putting it is "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.".

 

The life you KNOW you have is worth more than a life you can't possibly KNOW you have.

 

If someone's told they have a week to live, do they not try to make the most out of that week? Doesn't that week become worth more to them than that week would be if they were going to live for 80 years? Doesn't that week mean more to them than if they were going to live forever?

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But there I go again, debating atheists again after having already written an essay saying everything I have to say on all that stuff already, whose success as such an essay has already been proven by the inability of all the atheists who have attacked it so far to come up with rebuttals that haven't already been addressed in the essay itself. I've got to make sure this is the last time. Honestly, it's like I think "final word" has no meaning.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736399&st=0&start=0&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic...mp;start=0&[/url]

 

And that's the bottom line, 'cuz Stone Cold said so!

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Either way, what if you're wrong?

 

If you believe you're going to live forever, then doesn't that completely devalue this life?

 

Like I said, we get 70-90 odd years here, in this life, if we're lucky. Doesn't it make more sense to make the most of this life, rather than hoping for something that you can't possibly know is true or not until after this life? If you life forever, what's 80 odd years in comparison? It's nothing.

 

Going back to my analogy with the hobo and the millionare, that £10 means absolutely nothing to the millionare, whereas that £10 would hold much greater value to the homeless person with nothing.

 

The same can be said of life, to the person with an infinate supply of life 80 years means absolutely nothing, but to someone who dies and that's it, knowing that his life is limited, he makes much more out of it because he doesn't want to waste it. The person who ceases to exist when they die will always have this life mean more to them. It is after all, all they'll ever have.

 

You're right. 80 years means nothing to someone who believes that there is an infinite life ahead of him. But that's just the thing. Islam does not place value on those 80 years, except as a preparation for that infinity.

 

"Truly, the life of this world is nothing but a [quick passing] enjoyment, and verily, the Hereafter that is the home that will remain forever." [40:39]

 

"And put forward to them the example of the life of this world: It is like the water [rain] which We send down from the sky, and the vegetation of the earth mingles with it, and becomes fresh and green. But [later] it becomes dry and broken pieces, which the winds scatter. And Allah is Able to do everything." [18:45]

 

As for the "hoping for something you can't possibly know is true or not true", firstly we don't hope. We know. And while you expect that "knowing" to come from science, you haven't experienced it well enough to be able to decide if it's real or not.

 

But let's pretend I'm wrong. Do I really lose anything? Because every single person who has ever enjoyed life is dead. 80 years from now, if you and I are a pile of bones in a grave somewhere, will anything we did in life really matter? In other words, will you be in a better state of "nonexistence" than the one who suffered for 80 years?

 

Not really. You'll both be dead. Whether there is an afterlife, or whether there is nothing awaiting us, this life and its enjoyment amount to nothing once the person dies. I'm not being emo, or whatever it is they call it. I'm looking at it realistically.

 

Salam.

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I do not believe it's real because I have no reason to. I've never been presented with any evidence that even approaches adequacy.

 

True, no one's non-existence will be any better or worse than the next, but the one who spent his life knowing that he was living the only life he had would enjoy it a lot more than the one who believed this one was just a preparation for an infinate life, and he had to obey a certain set of restricting and limiting rules in order to

 

I can think of an analogy, but it's a bit grim.

 

It's like a kid spending all of their time studying to become an astronaut, after he's been diagnosed with a terminal illness. He could survive, but it's not likely, and instead of enjoying the time he has, he's spending it studying.

 

It's not the non-existence that is worth anything, it's the bit before that.

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You're right. 80 years means nothing to someone who believes that there is an infinite life ahead of him. But that's just the thing. Islam does not place value on those 80 years, except as a preparation for that infinity.

 

"Truly, the life of this world is nothing but a [quick passing] enjoyment, and verily, the Hereafter that is the home that will remain forever." [40:39]

 

"And put forward to them the example of the life of this world: It is like the water [rain] which We send down from the sky, and the vegetation of the earth mingles with it, and becomes fresh and green. But [later] it becomes dry and broken pieces, which the winds scatter. And Allah is Able to do everything." [18:45]

 

As for the "hoping for something you can't possibly know is true or not true", firstly we don't hope. We know. And while you expect that "knowing" to come from science, you haven't experienced it well enough to be able to decide if it's real or not.

 

But let's pretend I'm wrong. Do I really lose anything? Because every single person who has ever enjoyed life is dead. 80 years from now, if you and I are a pile of bones in a grave somewhere, will anything we did in life really matter? In other words, will you be in a better state of "nonexistence" than the one who suffered for 80 years?

 

Not really. You'll both be dead. Whether there is an afterlife, or whether there is nothing awaiting us, this life and its enjoyment amount to nothing once the person dies. I'm not being emo, or whatever it is they call it. I'm looking at it realistically.

 

Salam.

 

I'm afraid this sounds rather like 'nihilism; to me: " But let's pretend I'm wrong. Do I really lose anything? Because every single person who has ever enjoyed life is dead. 80 years from now, if you and I are a pile of bones in a grave somewhere, will anything we did in life really matter?" Why not celebrate this life in all it's goodness?

 

 

Salaam?

 

rs

I mean what/ Where is LIFE now? Didn't God create us to do something in the here and now? Why bother? It's all been written so let's not bother. Unless you can only think of matyrdom perhaps?

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Salaam?

 

rs

I mean what/ Where is LIFE now? Didn't God create us to do something in the here and now? Why bother? It's all been written so let's not bother. Unless you can only think of matyrdom perhaps?

 

My argument was not against making something out of life, but against the idea that one gains more if they seek happiness -- if the end result is nothingness. I didn't say life itself has no worth. Because it does. The purpose of life is to worship Allah. For those who are not focused on the mortal life and who fight their desires and attachment to this world, they are the ones who will ultimately triumph. And for those who see this temporary life as the last abode, and who use all of their time and energy building it (much the same way a person spends much time building a sand castle, only for it to be swept away in the tide by evening), then they are the ones who will have lost everything.

 

And before you start thinking I'm condemning anyone, remember that I consider myself as much of a weak human being as anyone else might be. The Qur'an serves as a warning both to the believers and the disbelievers.

 

“Many ways of life have passed away before your time. Go, then, about the earth and behold what happened in the end to those who gave the lie to the truth: this is a clear lesson unto all mankind, and a guidance and instruction to those who fear Allah. Be not, then, faint of heart, and grieve not: for you are bound to rise high if you are believers.â€

[3:137-139]

 

Salam.

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I do not believe it's real because I have no reason to. I've never been presented with any evidence that even approaches adequacy.

 

“Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam. Those whom He wills to leave straying, He makes their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies; thus does Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe.†[6:125]

 

Do you know those whose hearts Allah causes to close and constrict? The people who turn away in the first place. If you want to have a reason to believe, you will have to take the first step.

 

True, no one's non-existence will be any better or worse than the next, but the one who spent his life knowing that he was living the only life he had would enjoy it a lot more than the one who believed this one was just a preparation for an infinate life, and he had to obey a certain set of restricting and limiting rules in order to

 

There are two reasons I disagree.

 

1) Again, a dead man who has spent a life of happiness is no more happier than a dead man who has spent a life of unhappiness. They are dead.

2) You are assuming that the believer who believed in God and followed His laws has suffered a life of unhappiness. On the contrary, there is great pleasure in worshipping God.

 

Salam.

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ron

redeem/sister

yahya

your posts are very informing and need deeper cponcemntration

i am too tired but promise to add my views later

today i travelled fromk medina to mecca

started at 3 pm and reached jampacked mecca in 8 houras

i had not realised that my wayward resort to endorphins had caused my knee joints to swell

anyway alhamdulillah i manged my umrah

i was filled with rage against some one whop owes me dearly in jeddah

but the first versew i heard when i turned the t v on is

and those who are Allah conscious/conscientiously,Allah creates an exit for them and nourishes their needs from where they least expect

so i cooled dolwn

aalhmmadulillah

if there was no Allah

i would rob loot plunder rape every two legged thing

so i am grateful there is Allah

and those who do do not belive in Allah are losers both ways

may Allah guide us all to the best of humane cheareterisstics

aameen

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Honestly, if the only reason you don't "rob loot plunder rape every two legged thing" is because of Allah, then what does that say about you, as a person?

 

Our morality comes from evolving as a social species, needing to stick together to survive. Certain behaviours would've helped the group to survive, others would've been detrimental. As such, the helping behaviours become good morality and the detrimental ones became bad.

 

Obviously as our society became more complex, so did our morality, but the concept's the same.

 

I do not believe Allah exists, yet do you see me looting, pludering or raping anything?

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I do not believe Allah exists, yet do you see me looting, pludering or raping anything?

 

Because without Allah, who are we to say that certain acts are wrong or right?

A thief might say stealing is good for him, there is nothing wrong with it and crucial for his survival (survival of the fittest you see)..you counter argument that it is wrong because you yourself do not steal and plunder does not quite cut it, think about it...

 

ard

Edited by RAHIMI

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Also, I don't appreciate being called a "loser".

 

A real loser is the one who lose both ways, if you are right, we, the Muslims do not lose anything.. but if we are right, then those who disbelieved would have hell to pay.. You lose both ways mister…

 

ard

Edited by RAHIMI

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Because without Allah, who are we to say that certain acts are wrong or right?

A thief might say stealing is good for him, there is nothing wrong with it and crucial for his survival (survival of the fittest you see)..you counter argument that it is wrong because you yourself do not steal and plunder does not quite cut it, think about it...

 

ard

 

Um, I just explained where morality comes from:

 

Our morality comes from evolving as a social species, needing to stick together to survive. Certain behaviours would've helped the group to survive, others would've been detrimental. As such, the helping behaviours become good morality and the detrimental ones became bad.

 

A real loser is the one who lose both ways, if you are right, we, the Muslims do not lose anything.. but if we are right, then those who disbelieved would have hell to pay.. You lose both ways mister…

 

And what if you'ere wrong, and the Hindus got it right?

 

What if you're wrong and the Christians got it right?

 

What if you got it wrong and the Ancient Egyptians were right?

 

What if you got it wrong and the Aztecs were right?

 

Your religion isn't the only religion in the world. Even if Islam WAS the only religion in the world, what if your particular denomination is wrong, and another denomination is right?

 

I could add any other religion to that list, and there are 100,000s of them.

 

You'd be the loser burning in Hell.

 

Your argument doesn't hold water.

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