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Joker37

Why Are Most Muslims Countries Ruled By Totalitarian Regimes

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One of the things about chopping a thief's hand off is that he won't then be able to work properly for the rest of his life.

How about a bit of light torture?

 

ron

 

How about not being a repeat-thief who steals out of greed in the first place? We don't coddle criminals.

 

And frankly, I find any society/civilization that coddles criminals to be uncivilized and, here it comes, barbaric.

 

Salam.

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How about not being a repeat-thief who steals out of greed in the first place? We don't coddle criminals.

 

And frankly, I find any society/civilization that coddles criminals to be uncivilized and, here it comes, barbaric.

 

Salam.

 

 

Well 'coddling' is definately a subjective term, something which you have been ready to accuse me of in the past - not that I believe in holding grudges against anybody.

 

It's certainly a vast generalism anyway.

 

Certainly many criminals are barbaric, most of them, very likely, but that is in itself a vast generalism, since there are almost as many criminals as there are 'crimes'. (Maybe there are crimes 'still waiting to be comitted!').

 

So you have the idea that 'coddling' is a form of 'barbarism'. Could you elaborate please?

 

RS

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Well 'coddling' is definately a subjective term, something which you have been ready to accuse me of in the past - not that I believe in holding grudges against anybody.

 

Exactly. It's subjective. And so are "uncivilized" and "barbaric".

 

So you have the idea that 'coddling' is a form of 'barbarism'. Could you elaborate please?

 

Barbaric = lack of Islam.

 

So in essence, I have as much grounds to call people barbaric as the next guy (who, in this case, would be you and/or Cruorem_Deus). It's very easy to consider oneself and one's ideologies to be more "evolved" (another subjective term).

 

Salam.

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Exactly. It's subjective. And so are "uncivilized" and "barbaric".

Barbaric = lack of Islam.

 

So in essence, I have as much grounds to call people barbaric as the next guy (who, in this case, would be you and/or Cruorem_Deus). It's very easy to consider oneself and one's ideologies to be more "evolved" (another subjective term).

 

Salam.

 

 

Aha, so it all comes down to the status quo then, is that correct?

And it was you who, spoke of 'our common humanity' only a short time ago.

Surely, there can be some common agreement regarding terms which are connected with 'our common humanity'?

 

Barbarism= lack of Islam sounds incredibly simplistic I'm afraid.

 

I didn't come here to argue. At worst I came to discuss. At best to understand.

I have absolutely nothing to do with Cruorem_Deus, and in fact, if you had been watching more closely would have seen a great disparity of opinion.

 

I don't know exactly how easy it is to consider oneself to be more 'evolved'. In fact the use of this very word would seem to be worthy of much discussion.

 

Regards,

 

ron

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Aha, so it all comes down to the status quo then, is that correct?

And it was you who, spoke of 'our common humanity' only a short time ago.

Surely, there can be some common agreement regarding terms which are connected with 'our common humanity'?

 

What unites us is our shared fallibility and flaws. In other words, none of us are perfect.

 

Barbarism= lack of Islam sounds incredibly simplistic I'm afraid.

 

So does Islam = Outdated, which is the point I'm making. You might think I'm being obstinate, but consider things from our angle. All we see day in and day out are non-Muslims claiming that our way is wrong. On what grounds? Because "it isn't right". That's what it boils down to -- moral and ethical beliefs. The thing is, different people look at the same issue and arrive at two different conclusions. Let's use the example of the punishment of theft in Islam. In almost all of your posts, you have concentrated on the consequences UPON the thief. I have focused on the consequences AS A RESULT of the theft. Meaning, you believe the punishment is severe. I believe the punishment is earned. And because we are approaching the issue differently, we will never agree on it.

 

To fix any problem, you first have to acknowledge the problem; that's a common thing everyone knows. But while all of you keep telling us to fix our problem (of following Islam strictly), you have to understand that we don't consider it a problem. And frankly, an ethical problem is only what you perceive, not necessarily what is.

 

Salam.

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What unites us is our shared fallibility and flaws. In other words, none of us are perfect.

So does Islam = Outdated, which is the point I'm making. You might think I'm being obstinate, but consider things from our angle. All we see day in and day out are non-Muslims claiming that our way is wrong. On what grounds? Because "it isn't right". That's what it boils down to -- moral and ethical beliefs. The thing is, different people look at the same issue and arrive at two different conclusions. Let's use the example of the punishment of theft in Islam. In almost all of your posts, you have concentrated on the consequences UPON the thief. I have focused on the consequences AS A RESULT of the theft. Meaning, you believe the punishment is severe. I believe the punishment is earned. And because we are approaching the issue differently, we will never agree on it.

 

To fix any problem, you first have to acknowledge the problem; that's a common thing everyone knows. But while all of you keep telling us to fix our problem (of following Islam strictly), you have to understand that we don't consider it a problem. And frankly, an ethical problem is only what you perceive, not necessarily what is.

 

Salam.

 

 

Hi, I think you are confusing me with all sort of other posters. And I appreciate your honesty. You have often used the word 'WE'. You assume, that I am not a Muslim, of course.

Maybe you are spending too much time on-line! I think that whatever way one looks at things, that people are human, whatever that means.

Yes - because "it isn't right". The cultural/religious gap in a nutshell.

I think you are wrong to think that I have I have concentrated upon 'the thief'. I have been trying to concentrate upon the reasons for the theft. Some are, I believe, understandable, and some are down to many differrent reasons, especially if you look deeper. Some are downright evil, I think. To you all are the same. I think it depends to some extent which society you're talking about.

 

Again, you say 'what YOU keep telling us' is ........

 

What do you actually know about this? Apart from herding me into a camp called 'The Unbelievers'... how silly.

 

I certainly don't deny that there is a 'problem' fromyour and my my perspective.

 

Even David Cameron (if you know who he is, agrees about this).

 

Regards,

 

ron

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Hi, I think you are confusing me with all sort of other posters. And I appreciate your honesty. You have often used the word 'WE'. You assume, that I am not a Muslim, of course.

 

If you consider yourself to be a Muslim, then I apologize for thinking you were not. I don't accuse people of disbelief if they say otherwise. I hope you will clarify this for all of us.

 

And I have no idea why you're saying maybe I'm spending too much time online. I don't believe you have any grounds to imply such a thing.

 

In response to this topic as a whole:

 

Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith?†[5:50]

 

Salam.

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Can't be true, buddy!

 

Just think about it a little bit.

 

How much's the recidivism rate of a dead thug? Zero.

 

How much 's the recidivism rate of a free thug? Different from zero and positive.

 

Got the catch? It's Absurd! Somebody is lying to you.

 

DETER PEOPLE, meaning, the threat of being killed as punishment is supposed to stop people doing it in the first place.

 

Which doesn't happen.

 

Which is why US states with the death penalty for murder not only don't have lower murder rates, but actually have higher murder rates.

 

Stop attacking strawmen.

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If you consider yourself to be a Muslim, then I apologize for thinking you were not. I don't accuse people of disbelief if they say otherwise. I hope you will clarify this for all of us.

 

And I have no idea why you're saying maybe I'm spending too much time online. I don't believe you have any grounds to imply such a thing.

 

In response to this topic as a whole:

 

Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith?†[5:50]

 

Salam.

 

Hi, You said in your earlier post "all we see day in and day out are non-muslims saying that our way is wrong". I thought that you sounded a little tired of it all : that's why I suggested that maybe you were spending too much time on-line!

 

ron

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The thing is, that's an appeal to emotion.

 

I do agree that sentancing is too light, but as I said, diving off the deep end and reintroducing corporal punishment won't solve anything. It's barbaric and simply has no place in any civilised socitey.

Well it should appeal to emotions we are human beings not robots. To think that a murderer gets maximum 7 years is ridiculous. How does that make society civilised. Why should people pay their taxes to keep people like that in jail. In most cases where people commit a crime they have committed a crime or come in contact with the law before which shows that a little jail sentence/fine is not doing any good. I would rather live in a society where the punishment is a punishment not in a society who is too light on criminals - that just makes society uncivilised.

 

I would feel safer in my society knowing a rapist or murderer got the death penalty and was never allowed walk the streets again. And I do not believe all this talk of counselling makes their problem just go away.

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Well it should appeal to emotions we are human beings not robots. To think that a murderer gets maximum 7 years is ridiculous. How does that make society civilised. Why should people pay their taxes to keep people like that in jail. In most cases where people commit a crime they have committed a crime or come in contact with the law before which shows that a little jail sentence/fine is not doing any good. I would rather live in a society where the punishment is a punishment not in a society who is too light on criminals - that just makes society uncivilised.

 

I would feel safer in my society knowing a rapist or murderer got the death penalty and was never allowed walk the streets again. And I do not believe all this talk of counselling makes their problem just go away.

 

The word 'murder' is a general term isn't it? There are obviously many types of murder. And what about 'Manslaughter', - accidental killing ?

 

If people act like robots and kill, should we also act like robots and kill them? Two dead people don't make anyone come alive.

 

I'm not saying I agree with capital punishement or not at the moment. I'm just trying point a few things out so that, hopefully a decent discussion might take place.

 

Salaam

 

ron

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The word 'murder' is a general term isn't it? There are obviously many types of murder. And what about 'Manslaughter', - accidental killing ?

 

If people act like robots and kill, should we also act like robots and kill them? Two dead people don't make anyone come alive.

 

I'm not saying I agree with capital punishement or not at the moment. I'm just trying point a few things out so that, hopefully a decent discussion might take place.

 

Salaam

 

ron

I am talking about intentional murder.

 

Islam has different rules for accidental murder. And Islam requires justice so everyone deserves the right to a fair trial to let their case be heard. I am not saying give the death penalty the minute someone commits murder obviously the context has to be dealt with.

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I am talking about intentional murder.

 

Islam has different rules for accidental murder. And Islam requires justice so everyone deserves the right to a fair trial to let their case be heard. I am not saying give the death penalty the minute someone commits murder obviously the context has to be dealt with.

 

 

Hi,

Actually what I think is that capital punishment is an extremely crude but possibly sometime effective method of controlling serious crimes such as murder.

In the UK we have (or used to have - I'm not 100% sure now), dirrent degrees of murder, i.e 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder and so on. 1st degree murder being the most serious and would be pre-meditated. An arguement that got out of hand, for instance might be classed as 3rd degree murder.

 

I think that in a better world we should be teaching our childred things like social understanding and why it is better to be civilised towards others. If communication is 100% perfect then understanding would always be present and so, a conscience would therefore be instilled. Mostly, of course kids who's parents are lacking in care are the ones who grow up to do wrong. But is it right to blame them for being brought up badly? Ideally they need help. Not more brutality, perpetrated by non-understanding rather unpleasant people. We should strive for a better world, surel? Not be simply content to perpetrate bestial mores upon others.

All this is a huge genralisation of course. Sometimes, as crossed my mind when the shootings took place in Norway recently that this could well be a case for lethal injection.

 

It is interesting that in places such as Iran, for example where they still carry out amputations, that nowadays more 'modern' methods are used, like the limb is severed in a hospital to ensure that the would doesn't become infected and so on. Much less brutal eh!?

 

ron

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Mostly, of course kids who's parents are lacking in care are the ones who grow up to do wrong. But is it right to blame them for being brought up badly? Ideally they need help. Not more brutality, perpetrated by non-understanding rather unpleasant people. We should strive for a better world, surel? Not be simply content to perpetrate bestial mores upon others.

All this is a huge genralisation of course. Sometimes, as crossed my mind when the shootings took place in Norway recently that this could well be a case for lethal injection.

 

 

I live in an area that would be considered 'socially disadvantaged' and I have come across plenty of people who weren't raised up in a way most people would consider right but that still has no influence on their likelihood of committing murder. They know that murder is wrong. It does not matter about your background, rich and poor people commit murders and they deserve the same punishment. All this psychology/counselling drama people go through is worthless in my opinion and you often see murderers pleading the 'mental card' because courts will send them to mental institutions instead.

 

And I don't think it really matters if the death penalty doesn't deter people according to american statistics, I just care that the right justice should be done and Islam shows justice. Islam does strive for a better world.

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I live in an area that would be considered 'socially disadvantaged' and I have come across plenty of people who weren't raised up in a way most people would consider right but that still has no influence on their likelihood of committing murder. They know that murder is wrong. It does not matter about your background, rich and poor people commit murders and they deserve the same punishment. All this psychology/counselling drama people go through is worthless in my opinion and you often see murderers pleading the 'mental card' because courts will send them to mental institutions instead.

 

And I don't think it really matters if the death penalty doesn't deter people according to american statistics, I just care that the right justice should be done and Islam shows justice. Islam does strive for a better world.

 

 

Do you know any murderers, I wonder? Do they know murder is wrong? Or do they just do it without thinking?

No it's nothing to do with money. But, hang on, what is this IT? An outbreak of murders or a social phenomenon?

 

Nothing really matters, just make sure you kill THEM!

 

PS Not only should justice be done, but justice should be seen to have been done.

 

You read the newspapers? Forget it!

 

Salaam,

 

ron

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If it appeals to emotion, though, rather than reason and logic, then the sentencing loses its objectivity. It becomes bias either in favour of the person who comitted the crime, or the victim.

 

Sentancing has to remain neutral (Which is isn't at the moment, instead appealing to the emotions of the convicted. by making sentancing too light.).

 

What you consider "the right justice", clearly, the vast majority of people don't. Hence why the death penalty is banned in most civilised countries in the world.

 

If the statistics are accurate, then murder rates actually increase when the death penalty is implimented.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetdeathpenaltyinfo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetdeathpenaltyinfo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/deterrence...er-murder-rates[/url]

 

What you're saying, is that you'd rather dish out your own brand of "justice", that most of the world disagrees with, in favor of increased murder rates?

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The justice that works the best is the kind that focuses on the prevention rather than the cure.

 

Death penalty - more people murdered.

 

No death penalty - less people murdered.

 

Bit of a no-brainer.

Edited by Cruorem_Deus

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Do you know any murderers, I wonder? Do they know murder is wrong? Or do they just do it without thinking?

No it's nothing to do with money. But, hang on, what is this IT? An outbreak of murders or a social phenomenon?

 

Nothing really matters, just make sure you kill THEM!

 

PS Not only should justice be done, but justice should be seen to have been done.

 

You read the newspapers? Forget it!

 

Salaam,

 

ron

I don't know murderers personally do you?

 

It doesn't matter what I think or what anyone else thinks at the end of the day God knows better than we do and He makes His decisions alone:

Say: "Allah knows best how long they stayed. With Him is (the knowledge of) the Unseen of the heavens and the earth. How clearly He sees, and hears (everything)! They have no Wali (Helper, Disposer of affairs, Protector) other than Him, and He makes none to share in his decision and his Rule." (18:26)

 

And it doesn't bother me if justice is not done in this life because I know it will be done in the next life.

And obviously if your not a Muslim you maybe won't agree with that but since it says your a Muslim I presume you will agree.

 

 

[at] Cruorem

I am not really interested in american statistics, it does not apply to me.

Maybe you should pull out the statistics for repeat offenders in the USA.

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I don't know murderers personally do you?

 

It doesn't matter what I think or what anyone else thinks at the end of the day God knows better than we do and He makes His decisions alone:

Say: "Allah knows best how long they stayed. With Him is (the knowledge of) the Unseen of the heavens and the earth. How clearly He sees, and hears (everything)! They have no Wali (Helper, Disposer of affairs, Protector) other than Him, and He makes none to share in his decision and his Rule." (18:26)

 

And it doesn't bother me if justice is not done in this life because I know it will be done in the next life.

And obviously if your not a Muslim you maybe won't agree with that but since it says your a Muslim I presume you will agree.

[at] Cruorem

I am not really interested in american statistics, it does not apply to me.

Maybe you should pull out the statistics for repeat offenders in the USA.

 

 

Oh well, nothing matters, so we might as well all give up. A great philosophy that!

 

Maybe you mean you can' t personally grapple with what is, after all quite complex.

 

best,

 

ron

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Oh well, nothing matters, so we might as well all give up. A great philosophy that!

It is not my philisophy to give up in life, you don't know me personally so make your presumptions - I am just saying at the end of the day the law of God is higher than the law of man and therefore it doesn't matter what we think is right - i did not say nothing in life matters.

And this murder topic is not adding much to the original post so lets leave it at that.

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I'm sorry if I insulted you, but it seemed as if you were being very negative.

 

I have to say I can't always see the reason for many things whic appear in the Quran.

One thing in particular that bothers me is that I seem to often see and hear it said that the prophets came at a particular age and had a message which was approriote to that time.

This does not appear to apply to the prophet Muhammed however, and Islam says that he was the seal of the prophets. Hence Islam seems, to a large degree 'frozen in time'.

Maybe I need to start a new topic about this.

 

Salaam

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It is not my philisophy to give up in life, you don't know me personally so make your presumptions - I am just saying at the end of the day the law of God is higher than the law of man and therefore it doesn't matter what we think is right - i did not say nothing in life matters.

And this murder topic is not adding much to the original post so lets leave it at that.

 

 

Right on the money! You've said it in a weird fashion but anyways, it's true.

 

How in the world could a creature of God question His rules and punishments?! God created you, nourished you, gave you things that you don't even know about and at the end you question His book?! It's written in the Book that you have to perform such penalties for such wrong doers. He is the All Knowing the All Wise and you little weak mortals come here and say you don't like such n' such!

 

Oh, spare me!

 

Salaam.

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I'm sorry if I insulted you, but it seemed as if you were being very negative.

 

I have to say I can't always see the reason for many things whic appear in the Quran.

One thing in particular that bothers me is that I seem to often see and hear it said that the prophets came at a particular age and had a message which was approriote to that time.

This does not appear to apply to the prophet Muhammed however, and Islam says that he was the seal of the prophets. Hence Islam seems, to a large degree 'frozen in time'.

Maybe I need to start a new topic about this.

 

Salaam

 

The laws and teachings given to prophet Muhammad were so extensive that they encompassed all aspects of life, and are enduring enough to last us until the Day of Judgment. Allah says in the Qur'an "This day have I perfected your religion for you". Meaning, He has nothing further to command us to do. Everything He needed from us has been outlined in the Qur'an, and delivered to us by His messenger. If God sent another messenger, that messenger would probably be sent with MORE laws for us, not less.

 

And even if God had sent a new messenger after Muhammad, it's not like this new messenger would necessarily encourage the changes present societies are undergoing, i.e. the spread and tolerance of promiscuity, gambling, interest-based transactions, homosexuality, preoccupation with this life, etc.

 

A lot of the things that are prohibited to us are things that were prohibited to the followers of previous prophets.

 

Salam.

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No, I don't give a damn about Sharia. Why the smeg should I? I'm not a Muslim, and I'm not ever going to follow your Islamic law. I'd rather live in an anrachial state.

Ultimately, I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever bow to Sharia. If England became an Islamic Theocracy today, I'd move to America the next day. I will not allow any religion to take away my rights as a human being, nor anyone elses. If you choose to give up yours, then fine, but don't you dare try to impose your religious laws on me.

 

I don't believe what you believe, and I won't be forced to.

 

The secret is not to allow your country to go down this path and fight for it. The English used to be the toughest people in the world. Your social democrats, who are so afraid of offending anyone, have aquiesed to religious rights and have thrown away their country for a minority. England needs to wake up and get back to its roots. This means integrating people into your society properly while pushing your way of life. It is the society that you built that attracts people from less than desireable countriues to flock to England.

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