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SaracenSoldier

Another Tyrant Falls

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The point is those libyans shouldn't have treated Gaddafi that way. I know what he did was terrible, but Islam is not about getting even, it's about being above. Although I don't believe Gaddafi should have been trialed, it's obvious he was already guilty. I think he should of been killed quickly and his body disposed of quickly the Islamic way.

Agreed, while we all have our personal opinions about Gaddafi and in my opinion it is clear that he treated his own people in a bad way it doesn't mean his body should have been on display for people to view - there is a thing Muhammad said pbuh (I can't find right now) - he said that even though a person may oppress you don't behave in the same way by oppressing them - I think its such a nice thing to say but of course in reality its difficult to overcome our own feelings of hatred and grief but of course Muhammad is right in that we should rise above and be the example of the better person.

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The Prophet (PBUH) said “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. But (instead) accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.†[Trimidhi]

 

is this the hadith you were talking about?

 

Also Unbeliever

you said this first

You'll get your isalmic state now, and we'll watch it deteriorate into something like iran, when they impose sharia law.

 

then you write

what does this mean? I would appreciate it if you answer my questions. Then I can decide for myself if an Islamic state is a good or bad idea.

 

it seems you have already made up your mind on the issue based on your first response...

 

Ala'adin

Edited by ala'adin

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The Prophet (PBUH) said “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. But (instead) accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.” [Trimidhi]

 

is this the hadith you were talking about?

Oh thanks it is indeed =) Much wisdom in that saying.

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The Prophet (PBUH) said “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. But (instead) accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.†[Trimidhi]

 

is this the hadith you were talking about?

 

Also Unbeliever

you said this first

 

then you write

it seems you have already made up your mind on the issue based on your first response...

 

Ala'adin

 

I can only go by what we see in muslim states today. Some are better than others but the majority, especially arab states, are failures on the human rights level. I hope one muslim state can prove me wrong and plant a seed for a better muslim world. I have made up my mind but I hope I'm wrong. I don't think theocracies can succeed. Secular states are the only successful states on the planet. They're far from perfect, but a lot better than what you presently have in Islam. Actually, israel is the most successful non secular state. Islam would do well to use them as a model, but since so many of you hate them so much, it will never happen.

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I can only go by what we see in muslim states today.

The last Islamic state was the ottoman empire.

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Give me a reason to be hopeful. You guys on this site like to blame the west for your failures. Look in the mirror. Be men and take responsibility for yourselves.

 

Those 2 example Muslim majority countries are by fact made the way they are by the west. It simply cannot be denied. If the west is to blame, the west is to blame. So why don't you take the responsibility of your own doings?

 

Tell me or should I say, educate me as to what a real Islamic state would be. Would women be equal to men?

 

Men and woman can never be equal in the sense of the western view. In Islam, a woman is obligated to do certain duties, and so is the man. It balances out in the grand scheme of things.

Would homosexuals be given the freedom to live their lives as equal citizens?

 

No, since that is directly against Islam.

 

Would people of other religions be allowed to worship in peace?

 

Absolutely.

 

Would apostates be killed?

 

No, they wouldn't. There's nothing in the Quran that states apostates be given an earthly punishments.

 

Yes, they would. They know the consequences so it's all on them. Would freedom of speech and expression be allowed?

 

To an extent, yes.

 

Remember, these are the values that the west values. israel does also.

 

I honestly don't care what the west or the tyrannical of state of israel values, I care about what Islam and God values.

Edited by Teckni

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Give me a reason to be hopeful. You guys on this site like to blame the west for your failures. Look in the mirror. Be men and take responsibility for yourselves.

 

Those 2 example Muslim majority countries are by fact made the way they are by the west. It simply cannot be denied. If the west is to blame, the west is to blame. So why don't you take the responsibility of your own doings?

 

Iran had it's Islamic revolution. Yes, the U.S. facilitated this and Iranians turned on them. Muslims made Iran what it is today, with it's despicable government and corrupt ayatollas. Muslims rule Iran.

 

Tell me or should I say, educate me as to what a real Islamic state would be. Would women be equal to men?

 

Men and woman can never be equal in the sense of the western view. In Islam, a woman is obligated to do certain duties, and so is the man. It balances out in the grand scheme of things.

 

What is it that you think is the western view?

 

 

Would homosexuals be given the freedom to live their lives as equal citizens?

 

No, since that is directly against Islam.

 

An honest answer. Too bad. They are no less loved than you, by God.

 

 

 

.

 

I honestly don't care what the west or the tyrannical of state of israel values, I care about what Islam and God values.

 

israel is the only light in the middle east. I don't think you have a clue what God is or what God values. I have one very important question for you. Can God be offended by humans?

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I can only go by what we see in muslim states today. Some are better than others but the majority, especially arab states, are failures on the human rights level. I hope one muslim state can prove me wrong and plant a seed for a better muslim world. I have made up my mind but I hope I'm wrong. I don't think theocracies can succeed. Secular states are the only successful states on the planet. They're far from perfect, but a lot better than what you presently have in Islam. Actually, israel is the most successful non secular state. Islam would do well to use them as a model, but since so many of you hate them so much, it will never happen.

 

i hope you and the others have enough patience to read all of that

Let's try to make it fair, reasonable and friendly, friend. I like to show the bigger picture we are looking to,

 

1- Plz, red my welcome drink

2- I admit that the Islamic countries have many problems on countries and many individual's scales.

3- But, do you think the relative scientific and economical superiority of the former USSR in the late 50s, 60s, and 70s should had forced the western countries to leave the secular systems and Join the communism and one party system?

I'll replay this one, no it was just matter of time, and it was non-permanent and un-stable advance. And The same could be for many other civilizations.

4- Yes we are Moslems, but we are not Islam. Islam belongs to your and our creator only. Don't let the relatively low Islamic country status (we apologize for the whole world about that) to highly affects your look to Islam. Take care, mainly, about the Islamic teachings and theology.

5- What is the best football team in the world? It's not Spain the one who won the last competition 2010. it is Brazil the one who won more times than any other country, even if that wasn't the last one.

 

Every civilization, since the pharaoh, Babylon, Chinese, …., Hellenic, Persian, Romans, Islamic, ….Mongolian, ……European, Japan, Russia, …….had a good days and a bad days. And the now western civilization will not be an exception.

 

Sure it is not the end, According to Ibn-Rushd, (Averroes), an Islamic philosopher in the 12th century, there is a "a civilization cycle"

 

But the point is how to compare civilization during each phase of the cycle, at the very top and the very bottom relatively. And this is a huge academic work, not biased media show.

While we are at the bottom phase but we still not that bad, some reached (the European status in the middle ages 3rd to 16th centuries), and while the west at the top phase but they are not the good they suppose to be (compared to the Islamic civilization 7th to 15th centuries).

 

taking into account that, the controlled media, for the truth bad luck, can transfer the huge reasonable works into cheep non-sense works and vise versa.

 

brother, plz don't misunderstand me, i don't mean to offend any one

the west still can be better than that:

West has family brake down, they can't find family integrity or mercy or real love

West has more drunkards, and the categories of crimes related to it

West has more higher rates of fatal sexual diseases (1,000,000s of AIDS cases, 10,000,000 STDs cases, …..….)

West has more higher rates of Cancers (almost 15,000,000 cases in the U.S alone, with unknown reasons, while I think many types of it are related to open sex too)

West has higher rates of sexual crimes (harassments, raping, incest, children abuse, children raping with/without successive murdering)

West has very higher number of crimes and criminal with more aggressive manner (almost 2,500,000 prisoners in the U.S alone)

West has injustice distribution of the wealth, it was too obvious in the last "U.S house's crises". Most of the American don't own their houses and 10,000,000s of them even can't pay its annual paying with the interests to the banks.

West countries are mainly controlled by the "military industry Barons" "Media Barons" and "money bankers Barons", that what the U.S 50s and 60s presidents warned you against.

West my be have less happiness considering the suicide rates.

West is so materialistic, individuality, less human mercy relations.

……………………………………………………………………

…………………………………………………………………..

I believe that, many people in the west found the solution in Islam, specialty in social orders. While if many saw the same, the west will be the real paradise on earth. and why not?

 

No one predicted the decline of the USSR, no one. Could be one of the previous reasons the main cause of the west decline or could be any other.

 

The real Islamic state will come, sooner or later, and will show the world what is the real meaning of justice, fairness, tolerance, love, and happiness. Many, many western scholars told the same about the Islamic civilization in the middle ages.

 

But why you have to wait to see it? We have the two main sources of Islam, the Quran and the Sunnah, just see what could be helpful, real and truth and take it. Help your self and your society.

 

i think i didn't the best structure and ideas series, i'm not original english speaker

 

have real peace

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I admit that the Islamic countries have many problems on countries and many individual's scales.

3- But, do you think the relative scientific and economical superiority of the former USSR in the late 50s, 60s, and 70s should had forced the western countries to leave the secular systems and Join the communism and one party system?

Thank you for your comments. The USSR never had economic superiority over western countries.NEVER. This is why they are a mess today. Communism does not work. I hope you know that the west won the cold war. They were pretty good scientifically, but certainly not superior to the west.

 

 

What is your version of Islam that belongs to God? I don't think we worship the same God. I'll explain more later.

 

West has family brake down, they can't find family integrity or mercy or real love.

Yes, the family is breaking down to a point, but certainly not all or even most. I think you should look in the mirror. We don't do so called 'honor killings' when someone in our family displeases us. We don't force our daughters to cover their faces, even when they don't want to. We give them the freedom to be who they want to be, when they are of age.

 

West has more drunkards, and the categories of crimes related to it

We definitely have more problems with alcohol. It's not legal in some of your countries, but plenty of muslims drink.

 

 

West has more higher rates of fatal sexual diseases (1,000,000s of AIDS cases, 10,000,000 STDs cases, …..….)

 

 

In general, there is more promescuity in the west. Unless you're christian, most people accept sex out of marriage. I see no problem with it.

 

West has higher rates of sexual crimes (harassments, raping, incest, children abuse, children raping with/without successive murdering)

 

Many muslim men have raped and brutalised women. There have been many many incidents of muslim women and girls being raped and then blamed for it. This is highly repulsive to us. Islamic states seem to make women responsible for men's sexual behaviour. Yes, there are plenty of sexual deviants in the west, but plenty of muslims are just the same. It's a human issue, not religious.

 

West has very higher number of crimes and criminal with more aggressive manner (almost 2,500,000 prisoners in the U.S alone)

The U.S. is far more violent than all the other western countries. There are plenty of violent citizens in the west who happen to be muslim.

 

West has injustice distribution of the wealth, it was too obvious in the last "U.S house's crises". Most of the American don't own their houses and 10,000,000s of them even can't pay its annual paying with the interests to the banks.

The U.S. has acted foolishly and hasn't brought to justice all the criminals on wall street. Canada is a model for the world. We're still a lot wealthier than musims on the whole. You have tremendous poverty in many muslim countries.

 

West countries are mainly controlled by the "military industry Barons" "Media Barons" and "money bankers Barons", that what the U.S 50s and 60s presidents warned you against.

It was Dwight Eisenhower who warned about the american industrial military complex. This is precisely why the U.S. always needs to be at war.

 

West my be have less happiness considering the suicide rates.

West is so materialistic, individuality, less human mercy relations.

Ok, this is the point where I'm going to teach you a lesson. Let's get one thing straight. The wes t(Christian built and dominated countries) are far, far, far, far, more, more, more, generous, generous, generous, than any muslim country is, has been or will be. We give and give and give and help and help and help so many all over the world. We don't do it according to religion. Lets face it, muslims have much to learn from christians on this subject. You can say plenty of negative things about western civilization, but you can never question our generosity.

I believe that, many people in the west found the solution in Islam, specialty in social orders. While if many saw the same, the west will be the real paradise on earth. and why not?

 

Bottom line is, the west does not trust Islam. Some of your values are stuck somewhere in time. You take your qua'ran literally and there fore refuse to examine logically some of your beliefs regarding the equality of men and women, homosexual rights, separation of church and state, etc.

No one predicted the decline of the USSR, no one. Could be one of the previous reasons the main cause of the west decline or could be any other.

 

We knew the USSR was not going to last. Their system was brutal and unsustainable.

The real Islamic state will come, sooner or later, and will show the world what is the real meaning of justice, fairness, tolerance, love, and happiness. Many, many western scholars told the same about the Islamic civilization in the middle ages.
Unless you agree us on the above human rights issues, we'll always be at odds. We don't like that part of your religion. What are you going to do about the Islamo facists?

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Thank you for your comments. The USSR never had economic superiority over western countries.NEVER. This is why they are a mess today. Communism does not work. I hope you know that the west won the cold war. They were pretty good scientifically, but certainly not superior to the west.

but it was.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetworldology(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Europe/cold_war_status.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetworldology(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Europe/cold_war_status.htm[/url]

Russia/Soviet Union

Economy: As was the case in Europe and Japan, USSR/Russian economies enjoyed explosive growth in 50s and 60s, rivaling or surpassing that of western nations

 

What is your version of Islam that belongs to God? I don't think we worship the same God. I'll explain more later.

i'm Sunni moslem, we represent 90% of the total number of 1.6 billion moslems, and 55 out of 57 Islamic majority countries.

i thought you are unbeliever!! then what is your version of christianity ?

 

Yes, the family is breaking down to a point, but certainly not all or even most. I think you should look in the mirror. We don't do so called 'honor killings' when someone in our family displeases us .

"Honor killing" is not Islamic, I'm and every Moslem is against it. I believe it's odd, and only in some tribal societies in the whole Islamic countries, and even the Christian in such societies have the same bad habit .

while if you are really care about "HONOR", you may can help to stop this:

The real "shame killing" after the real "shame rapping and the shame incest" killing after rapping "the children" that mostly Happens by one of the family members. The number of children death due to abuse in the U.S. is 5 children per day

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetchildhelp(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/pages/statistics"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetchildhelp(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/pages/statistics[/url]

 

We don't force our daughters to cover their faces, even when they don't want to. We give them the freedom to be who they want to be, when they are of age.

The majority of the Islamic world don't force their children to cover the face. Just at the adult age they will recommend (Islamic, obligated) to cover the whole body and the hair. And that is proven to be beneficent for here self, here family and the whole society (refer to the sexual crimes statistics)

 

We definitely have more problems with alcohol. It's not legal in some of your countries, but plenty of muslims drink.

relatively, could be ignored.

 

In general, there is more promescuity in the west. Unless you're christian, most people accept sex out of marriage. I see no problem with it.

We see many social, medical, and even economical problems in that.

 

Many muslim men have raped and brutalised women. There have been many many incidents of muslim women and girls being raped and then blamed for it. This is highly repulsive to us. Islamic states seem to make women responsible for men's sexual behaviour.

May be that what the "MEDIA" trying to show us, while that's totally against the truth. Every family member will be helping and supporting that woman, what was here fault?

Why do you think we will do this, it's totally against the very simple Islamic principals.

 

Yes, there are plenty of sexual deviants in the west, but plenty of muslims are just the same. It's a human issue, not religious.

You may say that, while I'll say all of the Islamic world sexual crimes may be compared with one town in the US. And so we have to have a trustworthy statistics in such area,

yes of course it's human issue but it highly depends on the ideology, eduction and teachings the human have in mind.

 

The U.S. is far more violent than all the other western countries. There are plenty of violent citizens in the west who happen to be muslim.

We need some statistics here too!!! it seems to be MEDIA effect again!!

Although what I knew is just the opposite of that. After exhausting every method to control those violent guys, the authorities supported the Moslem preachers to reach those guys and the Islam did what others couldn't.

 

The U.S. has acted foolishly and hasn't brought to justice all the criminals on wall street. Canada is a model for the world. We're still a lot wealthier than musims on the whole. You have tremendous poverty in many muslim countries.

Yes you are wealthier, while you can be more better and more happier, and more healther too

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It was Dwight Eisenhower who warned about the american industrial military complex. This is precisely why the U.S. always needs to be at war.

it does mean they succeded to control the US. how? and why?

And J.F. Kennedy too, he warned the states against the secret societies and governments that controls the states and trying to control the world. And he requested the help of every individual in his country against that, they are too powerful. But he has been assassinated mysteriously?!

 

 

Ok, this is the point where I'm going to teach you a lesson. Let's get one thing straight. The wes t(Christian built and dominated countries) are far, far, far, far, more, more, more, generous, generous, generous, than any muslim country is, has been or will be. We give and give and give and help and help and help so many all over the world. We don't do it according to religion. Lets face it, muslims have much to learn from christians on this subject. You can say plenty of negative things about western civilization, but you can never question our generosity.

I got the lesson, and I'll try to be generous too, although I like to know on what basis you built your opinion?

But I'll not through thousands of thousands of tons of wheat in the oceans, although it can save the life of any poor human being any where.

 

Bottom line is, the west does not trust Islam.

who can get away from MEDIA effect, can judge fairly.

while 1,000,000s of westerners converts to Islam yearlly. statistics tells the opposite of what you think, although the bad condition of the Islamic countries!! why do you think?

imagine if the Moslems have a good media, what could happen?

 

Some of your values are stuck somewhere in time.

i don't agree on that, We are here to discuss that, don't judge us before hearing from us!!

 

You take your qua'ran literally and there fore refuse to examine logically some of your beliefs regarding the equality of men and women,

It's so clear in Islam, the main base of dealing with every one in the society is "justice" and fairness, and we can discuss that, later

Even you don't have equality between man and woman, why they are so small number in the army, why there is no fighters, why you don't have a mixed football teams or basketball or boxing ,…….why you don't share in bearing, pregnancy and suckling the babies!!

 

homosexual rights,

It's immoral, against the human being nature, it's against the human basic instinct. It has many social, medical (refer to the AIDS/ STDs/ many types of cancers ) and economical catastrophic consequences, that's an illness and he have th right to be treated cured by physicians and psyctrests.

 

by the way what do you think about "incest", is it among your human rights or no?

 

separation of church and state, etc.

For our bad luck, we already have that in most of the Islamic counties, and that exactly the main reason of our problems.

historically when the Moslems followed their religion, they had been the fastest religion and civilization, they domained most of the world for 6-8 successive centuraies. and when they got away of it, they began to decline. while this case is flipped over in other religions.

 

We knew the USSR was not going to last. Their system was brutal and unsustainable.

thay had such false feelings for decades.

They thought for decades they will domain the world and that's the best the humanity reached and every indication in the 50s, 60s were supporting that

 

Unless you agree us on the above human rights issues, we'll always be at odds. We don't like that part of your religion. What are you going to do about the Islamo facists?

MEDIA effect,

What I know, Islam who established and applied the human rights, 1400 years ago.

We can discuss what ever you don't like, and we may reach a common terms.

 

if you like, you can choose any of the above "disputable" points between us, and so we can discuss it in details. but make it one by one

 

have a nice day/night

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Unbeliever unless you have any proof from the Islamic scripture that encourages honour killings then do not say it is part of Islam. You can look and try find something to confirm it but you won't because honour killings is not allowed in Islam. Just because some Muslims believe in this does not mean they are right. This is also like the example of Muslims who drink alcohol - it is clear from the quran that it is forbidden. People don't always reflect their religion.

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Economy: As was the case in Europe and Japan, USSR/Russian economies enjoyed explosive growth in 50s and 60s, rivaling or surpassing that of western nations

i'm Sunni moslem, we represent 90% of the total number of 1.6 billion moslems, and 55 out of 57 Islamic majority countries.

i thought you are unbeliever!! then what is your version of christianity ?

 

Ok Ahmad, I wil take it two or three at a time. You sound like a genuinely nice person. Please don't take personally my beliefs and statements about Islam. I know there are many, many wonderful Muslims, just as there are in all religions and among those of no religion, and among those of new age belief systems.You are dead wrong about the USSR economy in the 50's and 60's. No economy came close to the Americans. Not even close. Your facts are wrong. The soviets had shortages in food and consumer goods. Western nations blew them out of the water.

 

I am an unbeliever - in religion.I was brought up in Christianity, but like most North Americans, am non practicing. I am a spiritual person who feels suffocated by religion. Though each one has some very positive messages, I believe they don't come close to the real truth. There is no point in debating this. You can never sway me and I don't care about swaying you. One must respect the right of others to their beliefs. We don't have to respect their beliefs, just their right to have them. I am confident enough in my belief system, which is not written in stone, that I cannot be swayed by religion. I honestly feel that I and millions of others feel that it is too controlling and stifles real thought and imagination. I don't want some book written hundreds of years ago telling me what to believe. My heart will tell me what is right for me, just as your heart tells you your religion is right for you. We can agree to disagree, OK?

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Unbeliever unless you have any proof from the Islamic scripture that encourages honour killings then do not say it is part of Islam. You can look and try find something to confirm it but you won't because honour killings is not allowed in Islam. Just because some Muslims believe in this does not mean they are right. This is also like the example of Muslims who drink alcohol - it is clear from the quran that it is forbidden. People don't always reflect their religion.

 

Amhad was generalizing about the west. I was generalizing about the Islamic world. Sikhs and even Hindhus have been known to particite in honour killings. There are 5000 of these each year and many are committed by Muslims. No group is homogeneous, not muslims or the west. There's good and bad in every human and every religion. There are many non practicing Christians and Muslims in the west and non practicing Muslims in Islamic countries.

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There's good and bad in every human and every religion. There are many non practicing Christians and Muslims in the west and non practicing Muslims in Islamic countries.

Good I am glad you recognise this, I just hope that this doesn't blur your vision of what Islam really is. The only way to know Islam is from the quran and sunnah.

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Another falls to the Arab Spring. President Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen has signed away his powers and fled to Saudi Arabia. It is amazing to watch the changes happening in the Muslim world as dictatorship after dictatorship is being swept away in a tide of humanity yearning for freedom. I hope (but have my doubts) that this will also be an opportunity for the United States to learn a new way of cooperating with the nations in this region, one that respects the inhabitants and seeks a mutually beneficial relationship instead of one of coercion and oppression through figure-head proxies for American imperialism more interested in staying in power than with the needs of the people.

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