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You asked where it said that and I answered your question! The Bible was written by men inspiried by the Holy Spirit (God)

I said nothing about drinking or eating blood friend. Do you remmember the Passover? It involved the putting of blood on their door post to be spared from the death angel. As i mentioned, in what way are you cleansed from past present, and future sin? Even if I did good the rest of my life; it wouldn't make up for my past sin. It is like a large plate of good food put over just a little left over poison. It will kill me just as if it were full of all poison. Sin according to the Bible is like that. God is just; my sin needs to be paid for. I need something outside of myself to save me or pay a debt I can't. A drowning man cannot save himself. I was a drowning man. My faith and God's grace resulted in my salvation. This is what I believe. I believe Jesus paid my debt with His shed blood as the Bible states. If I owe money and can't pay it, I can allow someone to pay my debt. I did, but how will you pay for yours, if you are broke and owe???

peace

 

As far as I am aware no one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews. I might as well start quoting you the Gospel of Barnabas.

 

I quoted you the entire verse so as to get the context. Look for yourself, show me where Jesus (peace be upon him) said anything like what you have said. Anyone who wants to read Hebrews 9 then click (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?search=Hebrews%209&version=NIV"]here[/url].

 

You're the one saying that someone needs to die for my sins, not me, I don't believe that anyone needs to die for my sins.

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As far as I am aware no one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews. I might as well start quoting you the Gospel of Barnabas.

 

I quoted you the entire verse so as to get the context. Look for yourself, show me where Jesus (peace be upon him) said anything like what you have said. Anyone who wants to read Hebrews 9 then click (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?search=Hebrews%209&version=NIV"]here[/url].

 

You're the one saying that someone needs to die for my sins, not me, I don't believe that anyone needs to die for my sins.

Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me." What do you think He meant by being lifted up? Jesus mentions that He must die and be resurrected. He did say this is my body and blood given for you. I have answered your questions; so, why do you care what the Bible says if you don't believe it anyway?

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Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me." What do you think He meant by being lifted up? Jesus mentions that He must die and be resurrected. He did say this is my body and blood given for you. I have answered your questions; so, why do you care what the Bible says if you don't believe it anyway?

 

And how do you get from that "Jesus must die for our sins in order for us to have salvation"? And if as you say Jesus knew of his coming death and was quite happy to die for your sins then why did he cry out "...My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” [Mark 15:34]

 

You are the Christian so I'm asking you, I don't know the answers to these questions, I don't claim to know your scriptures.

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And how do you get from that "Jesus must die for our sins in order for us to have salvation"? And if as you say Jesus knew of his coming death and was quite happy to die for your sins then why did he cry out "...My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” [Mark 15:34]

 

You are the Christian so I'm asking you, I don't know the answers to these questions, I don't claim to know your scriptures.

The OT and the NT tie together to give a clear picture. For instance, When the children of israel were complaining, they were being bitten by vipers and dying by the thousands. Moses held up a serpent in the wilderness. When those being bitten looked at the serpent lifted up they were saved from death. That serpent represented Jesus because Jesus became sin for us so His righteouness could come on us when we accept Him and His work as we behold Him. Another OT story is when they thirsted God told Moses to strike the rock and the people did drink. Later, they thirsted again. God told Moses to speak to the rock. Moses didn't obey but that rock was God illustrating who Jesus is (the Rock of our salvation). Once the rock was smitten, Jesus doesn't need to be put to death again all we have to do is speak to the rock to receive salvation (water of life) speak to the rock means pray to the Rock (Jesus) This is how we Christians understand the Scriptures. So didn't Allah know that leading the Jews to believe Jesus died would result in the world believing this? If yes, why would he allow this deception to the Jews? If not, whay not?

Edited by aj4u

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The OT and the NT tie together to give a clear picture. For instance, When the children of israel were complaining, they were being bitten by vipers and dying by the thousands. Moses held up a serpent in the wilderness. When those being bitten looked at the serpent lifted up they were saved from death. That serpent represented Jesus because Jesus became sin for us so His righteouness could come on us when we accept Him and His work as we behold Him. Another OT story is when they thirsted God told Moses to strike the rock and the people did drink. Later, they thirsted again. God told Moses to speak to the rock. Moses didn't obey but that rock was God illustrating who Jesus is (the Rock of our salvation). Once the rock was smitten, Jesus doesn't need to be put to death again all we have to do is speak to the rock to receive salvation (water of life) speak to the rock means pray to the Rock (Jesus) This is how we Christians understand the Scriptures. So didn't Allah know that leading the Jews to believe Jesus died would result in the world believing this? If yes, why would he allow this deception to the Jews? If not, whay not?

 

You did not answer my question. If Jesus (peace be upon him) knew that he would die for the sins of man then why did he say "...My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” [Mark 15:34] This is the problem I have with you aj4u, instead of giving me answers you give me stories and what not. I'm sure the Christians must have an answer to these questions; maybe I'm asking the wrong person. And how can you tell me that the OT and the NT tie together when they contradict each other? I don't understand.

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The Ottoman army occupies Buda after the crushing Hungarian defeat in the Battle of Mohács. September 11th 1526

 

Expulsion order announced against the Moriscos of Valencia; beginning of the expulsion of all Spain's Moriscos. September 11th 1609

 

Technically speaking the world trade center was first attacked in 1993

 

a more interesting question might be what was the purpose of the world trade center? The world trade center was essentially the financial heartbeat of the world...

 

in order to truly ( and logically ) understand why the world trade center was attacked you need to try and see it from outside your own perspective aj4u. These people wanted to bring global anarchy through financial instability across the planet. They wanted to initiate the second coming ( similar to certain radical Christian groups in the past like the Waco, TX wack job )

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You did not answer my question. If Jesus (peace be upon him) knew that he would die for the sins of man then why did he say "...My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” [Mark 15:34] This is the problem I have with you aj4u, instead of giving me answers you give me stories and what not. I'm sure the Christians must have an answer to these questions; maybe I'm asking the wrong person. And how can you tell me that the OT and the NT tie together when they contradict each other? I don't understand.

I will answer your question, This is a classic example of how it ties together. Jesus said, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" because, Jesus became sin for us; He became a curse for us because all our sin went on Him. This broke fellowship with Him and God. God turned His back on Him for a short time as stated in the OT. Isaiah 53 ties it together even further along with the other stories and there are more OT stories that tie it together even more that I haven't shared with you yet. When we receive Jesus, we become the righteousness of Jesus and stand prefect before God. Our sin on Him His righteousness on us; that is the hope of glory and why we know we have eternal life. I am not saying this to preach, but I share a reason for the hope we have within us and what the Scriptures say regarding Jesus, His relationship to the father and ours with Him.

When Jesus prayed asking God to let the cup pass him; he was more distressed about breaking fellowship with His father than suffering on the cross, but that opened the door for us. This is what Christians understand from the Bible

Edited by aj4u

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I will answer your question, This is a classic example of how it ties together. Jesus said, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" because, Jesus became sin for us; He became a curse for us because all our sin went on Him. This broke fellowship with Him and God. God turned His back on Him for a short time as stated in the OT. Isaiah 53 ties it together even further along with the other stories and there are more OT stories that tie it together even more that I haven't shared with you yet. When we receive Jesus, we become the righteousness of Jesus and stand prefect before God. Our sin on Him His righteousness on us; that is the hope of glory and why we know we have eternal life. I am not saying this to preach, but I share a reason for the hope we have within us and what the Scriptures say regarding Jesus, His relationship to the father and ours with Him.

When Jesus prayed asking God to let the cup pass him; he was more distressed about breaking fellowship with His father than suffering on the cross, but that opened the door for us. This is what Christians understand from the Bible

 

Again, you have given me an interpretation by a human being -- one of many might I add. And is Isaiah 53 really referring to Jesus (peace be upon him)? Isaiah 53 was written before the coming of Jesus, and it doesn't seem like a future prophecy to me since it's in past tense. Looking at how the Jews interpret Isaiah 53, I can honestly say that it makes more sense than what you have just told me; and they actually give evidence from scriptures not interpretation.

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Again, you have given me an interpretation by a human being -- one of many might I add. And is Isaiah 53 really referring to Jesus (peace be upon him)? Isaiah 53 was written before the coming of Jesus, and it doesn't seem like a future prophecy to me since it's in past tense. Looking at how the Jews interpret Isaiah 53, I can honestly say that it makes more sense than what you have just told me; and they actually give evidence from scriptures not interpretation.

 

 

No, really all it was was that Jesus was showing his human side. Wouldn't anyone, hung on the cross? Can't you forgive him for that?

 

Salaam,

 

ron

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No, really all it was was that Jesus was showing his human side. Wouldn't anyone, hung on the cross? Can't you forgive him for that?

 

Salaam,

 

ron

 

What are you talking about? Do you believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross?

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Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[4] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The people of israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

These are how your scriptural references are interpreted by the Jews since millennia before Jesus pbuh came. So thebChristian interpretations don't hold up. It's mistranslation mixed with paganism. The whole concept of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind is Neopaganism. Look at Roman and Greek mythology that were prevalent at the time of Paul. I don't think it's likely Gods ultimate plan for humanity was copied from neopagans or known to them before the general populous. I do believe it's more likely to say that Paul could've gotten mixed in with the polytheistic cultures. And the Trinity didn't come about until the council of Nycia when the Church omitted and accepted what they would from the ancientnScriptures.

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These are how your scriptural references are interpreted by the Jews since millennia before Jesus pbuh came. So thebChristian interpretations don't hold up. It's mistranslation mixed with paganism. The whole concept of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind is Neopaganism. Look at Roman and Greek mythology that were prevalent at the time of Paul. I don't think it's likely Gods ultimate plan for humanity was copied from neopagans or known to them before the general populous. I do believe it's more likely to say that Paul could've gotten mixed in with the polytheistic cultures. And the Trinity didn't come about until the council of Nycia when the Church omitted and accepted what they would from the ancientnScriptures.

While I agree with you that the Christian's interpretation of Isaiah is likely an innovation and a departure from Judaism, I don't think much of what else you had to say about neopaganism and Graeco-Roman mythology is correctly applied to Christianity. Also, Trinitarian theology preceeded the council of Nicaea. The council's role in the history of trinitarian theology was reinforcing it as the orthodox position for Christians within the Roman Empire. It should be noted though that even Christians outside of the empire (like those living in the Parthian empire) held their own councils and accepted the decision of the council even though there was no way for Constantine to force them to.

 

If you do want to point a finger at some kind of admixture of cultural influences, I would think a better suspect would be Greek philosophy, rather than Graeco-Roman mythology. There is a lot of borrowing by early Christians of Greek philosophical concepts in the development of Christian theology.

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Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[4] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The people of israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

These are how your scriptural references are interpreted by the Jews since millennia before Jesus pbuh came. So thebChristian interpretations don't hold up. It's mistranslation mixed with paganism. The whole concept of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind is Neopaganism. Look at Roman and Greek mythology that were prevalent at the time of Paul. I don't think it's likely Gods ultimate plan for humanity was copied from neopagans or known to them before the general populous. I do believe it's more likely to say that Paul could've gotten mixed in with the polytheistic cultures. And the Trinity didn't come about until the council of Nycia when the Church omitted and accepted what they would from the ancientnScriptures.

Scholars know the translationsal errors and interpolations that are not part of the orginial Biblical manuscripts. No Christian documentation has been destroyed; so, there are many translational references that can be compared and contrasted for truth seekers with the possiblity of looking up words in their orginal language. Besides, the Bible states that god's word is forever established in heaven preserved forever. The Bible gives a clear picture inspite of translational errors most of which are negligible of what god's will is so that man is without excuse. If god couldn't preserve his word before the 7th century, he wouldn't be able to do if after till now or the future.

Edited by BurningLight

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I believe it became official churchdoctrine at the coucil although I will have to admit if it did precede Ihadnt heard this before, I guess theologically speaking you're correct, but practices such as Christmas are very Pagan in origin and the whole god dying for his people wasoriginally pagan.

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I believe it became official churchdoctrine at the coucil although I will have to admit if it did precede Ihadnt heard this before, I guess theologically speaking you're correct

That is true for the church within the Roman Empire. The intention of the council was to settle the theological dispute between the Arians and the Trinitarians.

 

but practices such as Christmas are very Pagan in origin and the whole god dying for his people wasoriginally pagan.

Christmas is just a day. No one knows the precise day for the birth of Jesus. It makes a certain sense to me that if you are converting pagans, that you would coopt one of their holidays in order to streamline the conversion of the populace. It isn't as though anything is lost by using the celebration of Jesus birth in such a manner. I don't know the truth about whether Jesus death and resurrection are pagan borrowings, although I have heard such arguments before.

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I personally do not view the people who acted out the crimes on humanity to go to heaven. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) laid out a very specific set of laws on warfare. Al Qaeda disregarded them.

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I believe it became official churchdoctrine at the coucil although I will have to admit if it did precede Ihadnt heard this before, I guess theologically speaking you're correct, but practices such as Christmas are very Pagan in origin and the whole god dying for his people wasoriginally pagan.
Pagan? In what sense? There were witnesses that saw Him in His death and Resurrection and gave their lives to share that witness. The only thing I know of that is pagan concerning Jesus is Dec 25 which is the day most celebrate Christmas. I don't believe that date is correct. It annoys me that Christians accept that date, but since no one knows the date of Jesus' birth that pagan date is used. Muslims and Christians agree Jesus was born. But to say the Bible is corrupted because of reasons like that is ridiculous. I could understand if that date were recorded in the Bible but its not. Edited by BurningLight

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That is true for the church within the Roman Empire. The intention of the council was to settle the theological dispute between the Arians and the Trinitarians.

Christmas is just a day. No one knows the precise day for the birth of Jesus. It makes a certain sense to me that if you are converting pagans, that you would coopt one of their holidays in order to streamline the conversion of the populace. It isn't as though anything is lost by using the celebration of Jesus birth in such a manner. I don't know the truth about whether Jesus death and resurrection are pagan borrowings, although I have heard such arguments before.

I agree with what you say here. It is the truth. People try to attach Christianity to pagan roots in the way of Jesus' death and resurrection using Myths such Horus and Mithra. But their attributing this to Christianity falls short when you investigate to true stories behind them. They try and say that Jesus' life according to Christianity is a carbon copie of Horus but when I read the story for myself, I can see that it is based on inference, conjecture and speculation from the myth story. I see no resemblance. Those that feel threaten by Christianity would love for this to be true, but it is not. Edited by BurningLight

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What are you talking about? Do you believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross?

 

 

If you read the thread you will see that I was referring to Jesus crying out on the cross, saying: 'Lord, why hast thou forsaken me'.

That's what I was talking about.

 

ron

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If you read the thread you will see that I was referring to Jesus crying out on the cross, saying: 'Lord, why hast thou forsaken me'.

That's what I was talking about.

 

ron

Do you know why he cried out that?

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If you read the thread you will see that I was referring to Jesus crying out on the cross, saying: 'Lord, why hast thou forsaken me'.

That's what I was talking about.

 

ron

 

Well that's a bit strange considering as Muslims we don't believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross.

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If you read the thread you will see that I was referring to Jesus crying out on the cross, saying: 'Lord, why hast thou forsaken me'.

That's what I was talking about.

 

ron

I am confused ?

 

 

Well that's a bit strange considering as Muslims we don't believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross.

Now, I am really confused ????!!??!?

Edited by BurningLight

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I am confused ?

...

Now, I am really confused ????!!??!?

Abu Firdaws comment is correct. I'm not sure what Ron is basing his statements on unless he really does believe the Biblical account of Jesus on the cross, something that Islam would deny.

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Abu Firdaws comment is correct. I'm not sure what Ron is basing his statements on unless he really does believe the Biblical account of Jesus on the cross, something that Islam would deny.
Yes, he is right about what Muslims believe and it was a strange comment coming from a Muslim to ask that question. On another thread I asked why they don't believe he died, I am going back there to see if anyone responded Edited by BurningLight

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