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I am starting this thread as a peaceful way to discuss the differences between the two & go over some things that might bother someone who is devoted to Christianity. I can truly start no argument on the assumption that someone is wrong, therefore I start off with the assumption that Islam is right ( as a means of discussing not as a personal preference you understand ) and as such I ask three simple questions to start with and when some have answered I will pose two more.

 

I would humbly ask that the user with the handle of the sad clown be a sort of referee or judge on this so that things do not get insulting or mean. Because at the end of the day whether Christian or Muslim I think we agree ( at least for those who are loyal to their individual faith with sincerity ) that we desire only to worship the creator and please him. Hopefully if we remember this then at the end of the day we can refrain from talking to people in a way which I do, personally at least, believe would be less than pleasing to the creator of all that is.

 

My first question involves a verse from the Bible ( yes you may respond using the Qur'an as your reference )

 

Luke 1:26-38

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.â€

 

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.â€

 

34 “How will this be,†Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?â€

 

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.â€

 

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,†Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.†Then the angel left her.

 

In this verse, which was the accounting of the most educated man among the disciples of Jesus as Luke was well reputed to be, the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will conceive of the Holy Spirit & that this child will be the son of the most high, the son of God. This seems contrary to the teachings of Islam. But perhaps more interesting ( and entering into my second inquiry/question) is that Gabriel said be not afraid

 

Second question, "be not afraid" almost seems to be a calling card of Gabriel the angel of God. In fact in the accounts of Gabriel in the Bible ( Daniel 8:15-17, Daniel 9:21-24, Luke 1:11-19 & Luke 1:26-35 ) someone is either falling on their face in fear or scared out of their wits ( also note that both counts of Gabriel in the New Testament of the Bible are in the book of Luke ) so then a proper accounting of whether it was Gabriel who visited Muhammad or not should be clear in how he responded

 

Finally, if Allah is the only God as is to be said in a shahada then why in the well known 10 commandments did God say, thou shalt have no other gods before me for I am a jealous god? ( I can provide this verse using any translation of the Bible you wish )

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29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.â€

A couple of clarifications: the terms a son and the son are used interchangeably, why is that?, seems to be a little inconsistent there. Secondly, you had stated that there is no capital letter in the ancient Aramaic or the original language of the Bible, so why sometimes son is spelled Son? Why and who put the 'capital' 'g' in the translation and for what justification?

 

Finally, if Allah is the only God as is to be said in a shahada then why in the well known 10 commandments did God say, thou shalt have no other gods before me for I am a jealous god? ( I can provide this verse using any translation of the Bible you wish )

I talked about this on the other thread, there are many things that people taken as 'god', another human, money, and other created things, the sahadah in the nutshell negated all these created things/concepts etc that some people worship as worthy or entitled to any act of worship and for a believer to worship none but Allah alone. I don't see much contradiction here..

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a son is only used when talking to Mary about her son whom shall be named Jesus ( if you read the Bible you will find that Mary did in fact have other sons, one of whom was a disciple of Jesus ) thus he was a son of Mary ( or one of more to come ) while he was the son of the Most High, the son of God ( indicating only and a direct blood tie to God the father ) and the translation uses God with a capital G for emphasis because it is written in English. In Aramaic they would not need the capital letter to understand the difference between the two

 

if you have ever studied another language you see this problem frequently, for example if I were to translate something directly from Spanish to English it would seem like it is saying something different to the native Spanish speaker who is not overly familiar with English because certain things have to be changed for the message to make sense in the other language.

 

Now quid pro quo, I have asked a question, you responded with a question. Out of courtesy I answered. Now kindly address the rest of the post please and thank you

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Secondly, you had stated that there is no capital letter in the ancient Aramaic or the original language of the Bible, so why sometimes son is spelled Son? Why and who put the 'capital' 'g' in the translation and for what justification?

This is also quite important, since you said there is no capital letters in the original language, why, who, what, justifies the use of the word son to be written as Son or son in the translations?

Edited by RAHIMI

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I have answered your question already in the previous response, if you do not find it satisfactory that is fine but you still have failed to address any of my questions

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I have answered your question already in the previous response, if you do not find it satisfactory that is fine but you still have failed to address any of my questions

Let me make myself clearer, if the original language uses the word 'son' then why the translations use the exact same word 'son' as either 'Son' or 'son'.? Your response was because 'it is obvious', well to some others, it is obvious that some sort of dishonest translations took place, unless you can provide the supporting evidence on who, what, etc that authorised the use of capital case and lower case for the word 'son' in the translations works that you are presenting as your evidence. In addition, there are other verses in the Bible that refer to others as sons of god as well, yet the absence of a capital rendered them not divine?

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I have already answered your question. Did you not understand the break down of how languages transition especially when it is being translated into English ( or one of the other Latin based languages such as French, or Spanish ) ?

 

a son is only used when talking to Mary about her son whom shall be named Jesus ( if you read the Bible you will find that Mary did in fact have other sons, one of whom was a disciple of Jesus ) thus he was a son of Mary ( or one of more to come ) while he was the son of the Most High, the son of God ( indicating only and a direct blood tie to God the father ) and the translation uses God with a capital G for emphasis because it is written in English. In Aramaic they would not need the capital letter to understand the difference between the two

 

if you have ever studied another language you see this problem frequently, for example if I were to translate something directly from Spanish to English it would seem like it is saying something different to the native Spanish speaker who is not overly familiar with English because certain things have to be changed for the message to make sense in the other language.

 

the capitalization is not just in son or in god but in other areas as well. It places emphasis. This has been explained right here above. The capitalization is done in order to show that it is a proper noun and not a pronoun. In English when you speak of something specific like Taco Bell you capitalize the first letter as it is a proper noun, the name of something specific. If it is something general like a restaurant the letter is not capitalized. Thus as when god specifically refers to the being Yawhew in scripture the letter g in God in capitalized to indicate a specific person, place, thing or ideal and likewise the son of a god would be lowercase because that is a general statement but the son of the god should be capitalized as that is speaking of a specific person.

 

If this is your great example for disproving the Bible I have to be skeptical as this is a basic example of translating from one ( or in the case of the Bible, two assuming it is being translated from original language and not from Old English or German as many were ) language to another and as such certain alterations will occur in order to convey the same message because if it is done literally the message will not necessarily make sense in the other language. Ask a native spanish speaker to literally translate the spanish words of a movie to you sometime and watch as it comes out "altered" because languages are different in nature.

 

Now that the lesson in grammar is over I kindly redirect you back to the 3 questions at the start of this:

 

In this verse, which was the accounting of the most educated man among the disciples of Jesus as Luke was well reputed to be, the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will conceive of the Holy Spirit & that this child will be the son of the most high, the son of God. This seems contrary to the teachings of Islam. But perhaps more interesting ( and entering into my second inquiry/question) is that Gabriel said be not afraid

 

Second question, "be not afraid" almost seems to be a calling card of Gabriel the angel of God. In fact in the accounts of Gabriel in the Bible ( Daniel 8:15-17, Daniel 9:21-24, Luke 1:11-19 & Luke 1:26-35 ) someone is either falling on their face in fear or scared out of their wits ( also note that both counts of Gabriel in the New Testament of the Bible are in the book of Luke ) so then a proper accounting of whether it was Gabriel who visited Muhammad or not should be clear in how he responded

 

Finally, if Allah is the only God as is to be said in a shahada then why in the well known 10 commandments did God say, thou shalt have no other gods before me for I am a jealous god? ( I can provide this verse using any translation of the Bible you wish )

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There are several citations in the Bible prophesying the coming of prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessing of God Be Upon Him). Isaiah 42: 4 says ' He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he has established justice in the earth; . . . The Ministry of Jesus peace be upon him lasted only three years and at the time of his departure from this world it could not be truthfully said that 'he established justice in the earth'. However, Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him, preached for 23 years and most certainly 'established justice in the earth' before he departed from the earth. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that verses 1-13 refer to the coming of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him.

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise for them a Prophet like you (Moses) from among their brethren and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them, all that I command him".

Let me make some comments about the above: Christians believe that this is a reference to Jesus peace be upon him. One important word here is "Prophet". Christians believe Jesus is the son of God not a prophet of God. Another important word is "brethren". If it were Jesus the word would have been "children" because Jesus peace be upon him came from the children of Isaac. Since Ismaaeel peace be upon him was the brother of Isaac peace be upon him, the reference is therefore to the children of Prophet Ismaaeel peace be upon him who will be brethren to the children of Isaac peace be upon him. Again the only Prophet from the brethren of the Jews and the Christians was Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him. The next important phrase is "Like you ( Moses)". Even a cursory comparison will show us that Jesus peace be upon him was very unlike Prophet Moses peace be upon him. Prophet Moses' birth was natural whereas the birth of Jesus was miraculous without a father, to a virgin, peace be upon her. Prophet Moses married and had children, Jesus did not marry and of course did not have any children. The ministry of Jesus peace be upon him lasted three years and did not see the laws of God establish in his time. Prophet Moses peace be upon him, preached the law of God for many decades and saw in his time, the law of God established. Comparing Prophet Moses peace be upon him, with Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him, brings out an amazing similarity. Muhammad's birth was natural, he was married and had children; preached the law of God for 23 years and saw in his own time God's Law established in his land.

The phrase: "I will put My words in his mouth", takes on great significance because Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him, was unlettered; he did not know how to read or write. Normally God would put the message in the Prophet's mind. In this case attention is drawn towards "words" being put into the "mouth". Prophet Muhammad's sayings as well as eye witness accounts describe his receiving the verses of the Holy Quraan, and his tongue moving with the words being put in his mouth.

Turning to the New Testament, let us look at John 14: 15-16. It says: "14-If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16- And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another "comforter" (Helper in other versions), that he may abide with you forever". Also John 15: 26-27, John 16: 5-8 and John 16: 12-14.

Jesus peace be upon him, spoke the Gospel in his native language which is Aramaic. The earliest translations were in Greek. It is very very interesting that the Greek word which was eventually translated into English as "Comforter" (Helper) is "Parqaleeta" and the meaning of this word is "one whom people praise exceedingly". It does not mean "the Holy Ghost" which is what we are told the so called "Comforter" means. I do not have the slightest clue as to how this meaning was given to the word Parqaleeta. What is even more fascinating is the fact that the name Muhammad has exactly the same meaning as Parqaleeta "one whom people praise exceedingly"! One of my friends wrote very beautifully in his book about the meaning of the word Muhammad: 'The most praised one. He is praised upon earth and in the heavens, from the beginning to the end, by men jinn and angels, rocks and trees and animals, by prophets before him since Adam, by saints until Doomsday. As all of this cannot give him due praise, we beg God to praise him. He is the only One who truly knows the value and the mystery of His Muhammad and He is the only One who can truly praise him'. The celestial name of Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him is Ahmad. I will quote from the Holy Quraan about the connection of Prophet Muhammad with the Bible as follows:

Chapter 61: 5-6

"And remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye vex and insult me though ye know that I am the apostle of Allaah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong Allaah let their hearts go wrong: for Allaah guides not those who are rebellious transgressors.

And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: "O Children of israel! I am the Prophet of Allaah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad Tidings of a Prophet to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said "This is evident sorcery!"

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first of all why couldn't the one that Moses was referring to be Joshua? He preceded Moses, he was not from the same 'tribe' as Moses and at that time not all Hebrews were the same, a fact which can be seen throughout the Old Testament including the book of Leviticus.

 

Joshua was from a different tribe than Moses

Joshua lived many years

Joshua witnesses the establishment of the ten commandments throughout Judea

Joshua was hand picked by Moses himself and immediately followed Moses

Joshua had a wife and children

Joshua was beloved by his people

Joshua conquered many peoples

 

Also, if Muhammad was a messenger of God why was he not spoken to by God and not through an angel which I might point out that no other prophet in history received messages from God via angel (note I said no other prophet received messages through angel. I am in no way trying to say that angels never visited people in the Bible). Also if we are referring to the words of Jesus then we must look at all the words of Jesus which brings us to the question of the Eucharist where Jesus himself said that his body would be broken and his blood shed for our sake (this is in EVERY version of the Bible that you can possibly get a hold of).

 

Also any time a messenger or prophet questioned God they were punished in some way for it. Moses was forbidden from entering the promised land, Jonah was ate by the whale but Muhammad was allowed to question God repeatedly for the reduction of prayers per day? To me this seems inconsistent with the God of the Bible.

 

Finally if it was a well established doctrine at the beginning that Jesus was not the Son of God but merely a son of God, a prophet then I would think that when this new ideal came along (which was during the time of Peter) there would have been objection and outcry but there is no historical basis to believe that such objections were raised. It is only logical that if such a drastic change were taking place that was contrary to the teachings of Jesus his disciples would have something to say but they did not. This seems illogical thus I must question the logic of such ideas as believed in Islam.

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I have grown a little weary over the years of explaining about how many different people in The Bible get called sons of God, including the angels themselves, and about how functionally it seems to mean “servant of God”, et cetera et cetera. These arguments kind of got of got stale for me years ago and it never does any good anyway. No Muslim can ever be right about anything we think about The Bible and that’s that. Suffice to say there is no underlining beneath the word “the” in the original Greek text (or even in any English translation I’ve seen). In fact the text itself makes quite a point of comparing Elizabeth’s very similar situation to Mary’s. Both of them were experiencing miraculous births and the more you think about it (thinking without preconceived notions, that is—if that’s at all possible) the more parallel you’ll find that their situations are, and the more you’ll find the books of Matthew and Luke making a deliberate point of the fact.

 

Muslims are, of course, not obligated to believe anything in any of the Gospels anyway. I’m tired of explaining about this too, although an article along these lines (which may bear a name like “A Brief History of Scripture”) may actually be in the works.

 

“Be not afraid” is not a line found in any of our own scriptures, as far as I know. But I seem to remember Muhammad’s reaction to his first meeting with Gabriel being one of terror all the same. He was not a happy camper. I’m sure I can find the hadith if I need to.

 

In The Bible the term “holy spirit” can mean anything from literally “the spirit (i.e. the attitude or mindset or virtuous lifestyle) of holiness” to “the holy angel” (yes, pneuma can mean “angel”—they even admit to it at greekbible.com, and they’re ridiculously biased towards Christian dogma in the way they define ancient Greek at that site). I’ve delved into this somewhat before in my Trinity article.

 

The original commandments may not have said exactly what the modern version of Exodus claims they did (in fact, wild shot in the dark: they may have resembled Qur’an 6:151-152), but in theory the original phrasing of the first one might still have included the words, “You are to have no other gods before me." I don’t see why a Christian should have a problem with this. Are you really suggesting that there are other gods??? I just don't get what your point is.

Edited by IAmZamzam

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Brother Abdullah, what are you doing? Are you that guy with the Catholic wife who keeps talking him into this stuff? I have trouble keeping track. You’re starting to sound like an evangelistic troll again. Please don’t awaken my suspicious nature. I’m trying to keep it under control.

 

What have I told you about not needing to rely on The Bible? Haven’t we been over this before?

 

“No evidence of objection and outcry”? Secular historians have enough on their plate in terms of their “quest” for who “the historical Jesus” even was in the first place! Whatever it is you think you know, you’re leaps and bounds ahead of them.

 

Muhammad was told by Moses (whom he would have known shared the trait of infallibility) to ask for fewer prayers, and this is really, when you think about it, no different from any other type of petitionary prayer, or at least any other type of plea.

Edited by IAmZamzam

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[at] John Paul

You have been temporarily suspended from posting and PMing. If the brother confirmed what you mentioned, you'll be banned.

Using our PM system to contact Muslims to preach your own belief system is not acceptable in this forum.

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Assalamualaikum Rahamatullahi Wabakathahu

 

This post is for all Muslim brothers and sisters here

 

I feel like posting this ayahs here

 

 

7:175. And recite (O Muhammad SAW) to them the story of him to whom We gave Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), but he threw them away, so Shaitân (Satan) followed him up, and he became of those who went astray

 

7:176. And had We willed, We would surely have elevated him therewith but he clung to the earth and followed his own vain desire. So his description is the description of a dog: if you drive him away, he lolls his tongue out, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls his tongue out. Such is the description of the people who reject Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). So relate the stories, perhaps they may reflect

 

7:177. Evil is the likeness of the people who reject Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses and signs, etc.), and used to wrong their ownselves.

 

Pl read the tafsir of this ayah (tafsir)

 

The main purpose of the forum like this is to bring people from darkness to light

 

and the post like this

 

 

Abdullah and I have been chatting privately for quite some time now. We have covered all kinds of topics. He has renounced Islam and embraced Catholicism.

His name is no longer Abdullah; he has reverted back to his given name Vincent. I just want to make it clear I did not go to Vincent, Vincent came to me with questions and a humble heart. 

 

is like making mockery of this forum

 

I think there are far more better people here  than me to tackle Mr. Paul 

but i am surprised by their silence

So far non of the Muslims care to bother about this 

When Allah has given the knowledge then what is stopping us to share it

or we have become like the Bal`am bin Ba`ura' who misused the knowledge and ran behind the wealth of this world

To give his bounty Allah does not need Gawaher to be source , If he wants to give there are lot of other sources available for him

similarly , If we fail in our duty , there are lot of other sources available for him to take away our wealth

 

So pl, brother and sister justify yourselves

 

 

 

 

 

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Abdullah and I have been chatting privately for quite some time now. We have covered all kinds of topics. He has renounced Islam and embraced Catholicism.

 

His name is no longer Abdullah; he has reverted back to his given name Vincent. I just want to make it clear I did not go to Vincent, Vincent came to me with questions and a humble heart.

Salams

 

Hi Paul

had you ever seen the tolerance like this 

yet you people say Muslims are intolerant people

tell me honestly , can this thing can ever happen in christian forums

you know Paul , some time i used to wonder how a sane man can ever believe there is son for GOD

Firstly we will consider the logic of your religion

we don't need a hefty debate to crush you logic 

watch out this video of Shabbir Ally

 

I have seen Christians converting here(In India) by ALLURING ,CHEATING and by talking lies

 

I have witnessed these things by myself

 

Read this link

 

You people go to any extent to convert people

 

I can elaborate about  alluring ,cheating as well as talking lies 

but before this

I want you make the question of Abdullah public

because ,you cannot allure or cheat here

you can do these things on this forum at least

I want to see his questions and your answers

i want to know how Christianity is better than Islam

I think you will not have problem in doing this if you think what you have done was correct

Other wise , i am forced to think even you are from the people who allure and cheat and of course a Liar!

 

 

Regards

 

Md Mushtaq

 

 

 

 

 

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is like making mockery of this forum

 

I think there are far more better people here  than me to tackle Mr. Paul 

but i am surprised by their silence

So far non of the Muslims care to bother about this 

When Allah has given the knowledge then what is stopping us to share it

or we have become like the Bal`am bin Ba`ura' who misused the knowledge and ran behind the wealth of this world

To give his bounty Allah does not need Gawaher to be source , If he wants to give there are lot of other sources available for him

similarly , If we fail in our duty , there are lot of other sources available for him to take away our wealth

 

So pl, brother and sister justify yourselves

 

 

Many Members had replied to his arguments. That's the reason it's not a matter of heated discussion currently. And we need abdullahfath to confirm the statements.

 

Trinity itself is enough for me to refute Christianity, not to mention the Bible. And, I think if Abdullahfathi shows up now, we could counter his arguments.

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Abdullah and I have been chatting privately for quite some time now. We have covered all kinds of topics. He has renounced Islam and embraced Catholicism.

 

His name is no longer Abdullah; he has reverted back to his given name Vincent. I just want to make it clear I did not go to Vincent, Vincent came to me with questions and a humble heart.

 

John Paul is right in that the brother was the one who contacted him, asking about Christianity and Catholicism.

I've lifted the temporary ban, and he can now post in the forum.

John Paul violated our forum rules and sent the brother anti-Islamic links through PMs.

This made me re-think the freedom we allow Christian members in this forum. Although we welcome any discussions questioning our faith, through public healthy posts that everyone reads, it becomes a totally different story when done through private messages. Taking advantage of our private message system to convert new Muslims back is not right. Something has to be done (though the brother is the one who contacted JP).

Prevent Christians from using the PM system? no

Disable the PM system for everyone? no

Both ideas are unacceptable.

We can add a new rule prohibiting religious discussions in private messages.

Had the brother posted his questions and thoughts publicly, we could have saved him from his fatal decision to revert back to Christianity. Unfortunately he decided not to come back here! May Allah The-Merciful guide him.

 

From what I've read (admin has access to PMs) JP presented the brother with very weak points. It is the brother who was a weak target. JP seems highly lacking knowledge regarding Islam, for the simple reason that he is too busy, and has no time to educate himself. He was raised Catholic and chose to stick to what he was taught.

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I don't know what to say other than if you can switch your beliefs back and forth, not once but twice, in such a short time, you don't seem to really believe at all. That is just my opinion on this, and I apologize if it seems like I am making an attack on anyone. I know that when I started to look into Islam, it wasn't necessarily quick and I backed it up with continuing to seek answers from Christianity. Answers that never came.

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If I might chime in a little. As a Christian on this forum I do find it for the most part welcoming and warm to me.  As to what Dot says to curb the problem of religious text in PM's. I don't know if I personally think that is a good idea. Some topics are not allowed for discussion. I have recently had one locked that was not allowed. In my opinion if we lock out religious links in pm's then maybe highly controversial topics should have a special place for discussion on the forum. Now in JP's defense Abdullah did contact him. To know if JP intentionally tried to convert him to the RCC one would have to know the line of questioning that Abdullah asked JP. Also I know Abdullah was a convert but did not know how recent. If I remember correctly he also had a RC wife. I know this from post on this forum. This also may have played a role in his conversion back to the RCC. All that is pure speculation though. Only Abdullah and JP know the whole factor in this matter. Thank you for your time and I hope I have not over stepped my bounds. 

 

God Bless

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 As to what Dot says to curb the problem of religious text in PM's. I don't know if I personally think that is a good idea. Some topics are not allowed for discussion.

 

If its not allowed for discussions, then its for a reason, and so its not allowed in PMs either. Every forum has its policy.

Group discussions are always healthier than private talk, specially in religious matters. If you have a strong case, come forward in public.

If you mean by restricted topics those started to preach other faith systems, this should be understandable in an Islamic forum.

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If its not allowed for discussions, then its for a reason, and so its not allowed in PMs either. Every forum has its policy.

Group discussions are always healthier than private talk, specially in religious matters. If you have a strong case, come forward in public.

If you mean by restricted topics those started to preach other faith systems, this should be understandable in an Islamic forum.

I understand there are policies in place and it is setup so by those who run the forum. I can respect that. As far as group discussions are healthier than private talk. Well that is a matter of interpretation. As for restricted topics I was not referencing preaching other faith systems as it is a Islamic forum as you said. There was one that apparently delved into a different sect and I did not understand that but since different sects are not allowed to be talked about. It was closed. But again I can respect that as I am a guest here in this house. Than you again. 

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i think there are far

more better people here than me to tackle Mr. Paul

but i am surprised by their silence

So far non of the Muslims care to bother
about this

When Allah has given the knowledge then what
is stopping us to share it

or we have become like the Bal`am bin Ba`ura'
who misused the knowledge and ran behind the wealth of this world

To give his bounty Allah does not need
Gawaher to be source , If he wants to give there are lot of other sources
available for him

similarly , If we fail in our duty , there
are lot of other sources available for him to take away our wealth

So pl, brother and sister justify yourselves

 

 

I beg your pardon, parvez?? Frankly I’m not even sure what you’re talking about but I do know that it all boils down somehow to the idea that I’m somehow obligated to justify myself to you. And for doing what exactly? For not trolling another board member who’s already been punished? Brother, I’ve already done my duty. You were there. Refresh your memory:

 

 

http://www.gawaher.com/topic/739541-is-the-bible-corrupted/page-2


http://www.gawaher.com/topic/739541-is-the-bible-corrupted/page-3

 

 

At the beginning this man’s faith seemed to be teetering on the edge. And while of course I would never dare be so arrogant as to claim that it was entirely because of myself (entirely because of human efforts period) by the end you can clearly see he was back on course, and quite confident about it too. I don’t know what happened—only I think I may. This is exactly why marrying people who do things like deify humans is a bad idea.
 

Edited by IAmZamzam

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Mr Dot were you born a Muslim?

 

Have you educated yourself thoroughly with Christianity to avoid yourself from using a double standard?

 

No I haven't, because through my 6 decades of being I never found a flaw in Islam. Had my religion been confronted with 1% of the concrete accusations yours face, I would surely go educate myself about a true non-tampered with religion.

I don't even know why I bother coming here...

I think you have to answer that yourself.

 

BTW Does it look like I care if I get banned from this forum? As far as I’m concerned I’ve helped a brother in Christ come home where he has the privilege to call God his father. If I wanted to be sneaky about it then I wouldn’t have mentioned it openly in this thread.

 

As far as Vincent is concerned he would rather be the son of God than the slave of God.

 

I pity all the Christian converts here, they drop their dignity from son of God to slave of God. Not a very smart thing to do...

 

IT IS GOD who said that He has no sons, fullstop. We would surely be honored if we were, but we were strictly warned against even imagining such nonsense.

Playing with words doesn't always work JP. When it comes to our Lord, a "slave" is much more cherished and cared for than your earthly understanding of the word "son". While we see parents who abuse their children, raise them the wrong way, giving them bad examples, or even abandoning them, everyday, on the other hand, God creates His slaves in the best shape. Every organ, bone, muscle, cell is perfectly designed and placed. Can fathers do that? God provides new born slaves with their food, wealth, knowledge, health, senses, children and much more. Can fathers do any of that?

 

You don’t understand what gravity is yet you believe in it, yet you don’t believe in the Trinity because you don’t understand it. I have yet to meet a single Muslim that does not use a double standard and that includes the moderator Dot...I don’t have time for ignorant people.

 

Muslims insult God and history by thinking God would allow his eternal word transmitted in the Torah and Gospel to be fabricated. The Jews and Christians fabricated their own books, wow that makes alot of sense. So all biblical and secular sources are wrong and Islam is right...yeh right, whatever man.

 

It is The Lord Al-Mighty, not us humans, who guaranteed only the Quran against fabrication. You should ask yourself: why?

Its simply because all previous religions were just temporary steps toward the final and perfect religion everyone should revert to. Why guard (against fabrication or loss) text of religions that have expired their purpose already? Weren't you clearly informed that you should abandon your Christianity and embrace the final religion, Islam? Why complain now about outdated systems?

 

It is the final religion that counts my friend, till the end of time.

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JP, thank you for proving that you stoop to the lowest common denominator like many of the Christians that I personally know, rather than showing even a modicum of respect with your comments.

 

First, you seem like you've bought into Pamela Geller's and Robert Spencer's hate campaign against Islam with your little swipe at the "Ground Zero" mosque. That claim has been debunked by so many different groups that I'm not going to even go into it. Safe to say, when support for the Cordoba Center came in from Christians, Jews and other religious groups, the haters tried to politicize 9/11 and blame all Muslims for it. You are stooping to their level with your comments.

 

Second, I am a revert from Christianity. I have friends who are Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Jewish, Hindu and so forth. And yet you attack me in hatred instead of anything else. You know, I am hopeful that with the new pope, things will get better between our faiths. But it is people that respond like you that make that seem almost impossible. You believe Christianity, specifically Catholicism is perfect. I disagree strongly with that, but I don't denigrate people for their beliefs either. That's the difference between us I think.

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