Jump to content
Islamic Forum
the sad clown

Eternal Hell

Recommended Posts

We might as well get straight to the point then and ask: Why didn't God just put us in Paradise instead of testing us? Point I'm trying to make is that we can only go so far in trying to understand the Wisdom of Allaah. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know." [2:30]

I understand. I tried to qualify my statement at the end to make it clear that of course I am too limited to fully comprehend the mind of a God like Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds
Sorry, I didn't quite understand you there. Did you mean that disbeliever deserves infinite punishment?

I see. That seems similar to the Catholic concept of purgatory. The major difference here between Christianity and Islam is the idea of Jesus being a propitiatory sacrifice, which seems to mitigate much, if not all, of the need for a temporary punishment. Thus, for the Christian, there is only the eternal punishment of disbelief and eternal Paradise for those who have believed in Jesus and so been forgiven by God. I have not done a thorough study of purgatory to understand how that works into such a framework, but I am sure it is possible. Perhaps one of the Catholic members here can comment on it.

The catholics believe in purgatory; they believe people with venial sins go there, but those with mortal sins go to hell. Mortal sins consists of missing mass for one which is just totally ridiculous. It is not even SCRIPTURAL. I guess you're right that the believe that some will be punished on earth and eventually enter paradise sounds bearable to the human mind, but the Bible states there is no such thing as purgatory. It is either one of the other. After death, all negotiations stop; hell is non negotiable and forever. It is a place where god is not; a place where god doesn't hear you forever; it is a place of weeping gnashing of teeth and where their worm never dies. There is no communication and total outer darkness. The rest is just to horrific to speak of. Just think of all the imagined evil tortures man has done to man on earth. That is like a 5 star hotel by comparsion of hell!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The catholics believe in purgatory; they believe people with venial sins go there, but those with mortal sins go to hell. Mortal sins consists of missing mass for one which is just totally ridiculous. It is not even SCRIPTURAL.

Ah, you're right, those nasty Catholics. Why, they can hardly even be called Christian. Well, I guess it is easier to defend if you actually believe it.

 

I guess you're right that the believe that some will be punished on earth and eventually enter paradise sounds bearable to the human mind

I don't remember saying that, but ok...

 

but the Bible states there is no such thing as purgatory. It is either one of the other. After death, all negotiations stop; hell is non negotiable and forever.

In the same way that it says there is no such thing as the Trinity? I do know enough about purgatory to know that Catholics do have verses they point to for it. You may disagree with the interpretation, but that isn't quite the same as the Bible "stating" that there is no such thing as purgatory, unless you have a verse that says just that.

 

It is a place where god is not; a place where god doesn't hear you forever;

So God is able to defeat his own omnipresence and omniscience?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ah, you're right, those nasty Catholics. Why, they can hardly even be called Christian. Well, I guess it is easier to defend if you actually believe it.
Some catholics are really nice people and know a lot of truth. Some are dogmatic and ignorant pagans.

 

I don't remember saying that, but ok...
Sorry, you said something to the affect that the concept of heaven and hell in Islam is similar to that of Catholics and I thought to mention my sentiments on it

 

In the same way that it says there is no such thing as the Trinity?
It doesn't say there is no trinity; it just doesn't mentione the word trinity but the concept of trinity or triunity of God is there even though there is only one God. Please don't ask me to explain the unexplainable!

 

I do know enough about purgatory to know that Catholics do have verses they point to for it. You may disagree with the interpretation, but that isn't quite the same as the Bible "stating" that there is no such thing as purgatory, unless you have a verse that says just that.

So God is able to defeat his own omnipresence and omniscience?

The Bible mentions nothing of purgatory; you are intelligient. Yes, god is able in his sovereingty to not be present in hell, but knows all things and sees all. I am trying to figure you out. I am wondering why you a non believer finds a forum of monotheistic believers interesting. Can you explain that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to catholic beliefs, is purgatory only for the christians or is it for everyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not clear on how that sentence changes the statement. So, if God had wanted to, he could have guided every soul, but he doesn't want to. I just wasn't sure if it was saying he didn't want to because he had promised to populate hell with people.

 

God will not for this reason:

 

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers (10:99)

 

God could very well make everyone believe. He won't do it because He would compelling people to believe. He has chosen not do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
According to catholic beliefs, is purgatory only for the christians or is it for everyone?

I don't know and don't really care

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
God will not for this reason:

 

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers (10:99)

 

God could very well make everyone believe. He won't do it because He would compelling people to believe. He has chosen not do so.

Ah, so does that mean that some souls could only be guided into belief through compulsion. That makes sense to me now. Thank you for the explanation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
According to catholic beliefs, is purgatory only for the christians or is it for everyone?

I am fairly sure it would only be for Christians, since it would only be for those souls already destined for heaven. Christians believe one can go to heaven only through faith in Jesus Christ, which would include believing in his death on the cross and resurrection.

 

I don't know and don't really care

Huh, one would think that this might be a good indicator that the question wasn't directed towards you, the confirmed anti-Catholic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I understand. I tried to qualify my statement at the end to make it clear that of course I am too limited to fully comprehend the mind of a God like Allah.

It sounds like you believe in a god?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Some catholics are really nice people and know a lot of truth. Some are dogmatic and ignorant pagans.

But not as much truth as you, eh? And pity those poor dogmatic (and you aren't?) pagan Catholics. Why, they're probably still burning sacrifices to Jupiter.

 

Sorry, you said something to the affect that the concept of heaven and hell in Islam is similar to that of Catholics and I thought to mention my sentiments on it

Funny, I'm still missing where your sentiment helped clarify the subject at hand. Now lets see what else you said...

 

[The Bible] doesn't mention the word trinity

The Bible mentions nothing of purgatory

Can you see the parallel in these two statements? I don't think many Muslims would see the distinction. I don't think many Catholics would see that much of a distinction either. Both are dependent on the interpretation of passages that imply but do not explicitly state their respective positions.

 

Yes, god is able in his sovereingty to not be present in hell, but knows all things and sees all.

So how is an omnipresent God not present somewhere? Or is God no longer omnipresent once Hell starts? And if God knows and sees all, wouldn't he be aware of what you are saying? I'm not sure if that qualifies as hearing you, but it ought to be good enough, since the same thing happens, you say something and the other persons knows what you said.

 

I am trying to figure you out. I am wondering why you a non believer finds a forum of monotheistic believers interesting. Can you explain that?

I find it interesting because it is interesting. Islam is the second largest religion by many measures (and the largest by some), and has played a critical role in shaping much of the United States political rhetoric if not actual policy. Unfortunately, its role in this has often been through misconception and disinformation, which seems to me to make an even more compelling case for learning about it since it is too easy to get wrong information about the religion. This is why I started posting here.

 

I have more personal reasons for having continued here. One is my admiration for how the forum is generally operated (in a friendly and intelligent manner). Another is that I generally feel like I can discuss religion here and not experience some of the condemnation one gets being an ex-Christian on Christian forums. The greater distance both religiously between me and Muslims allows for a more emotionally safe situation for both myself and the interlocutor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It sounds like you believe in a god?

Saying I am not as strong as a man like Superman does not entail belief in Superman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BurningLight, I wanted to apologize for the tone of my last couple of posts towards you. Too much unnecessary snark. I admit to disliking the attitude that dismisses Catholics as non-Christians, primarily since it was one that I once held and later regretted. Nevertheless, I can conduct a discussion better than I have, and so I apologize to you.

 

I will leave my posts unedited, since I still believe what I said in them, but I will strive to improve the tone of them in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BurningLight, I wanted to apologize for the tone of my last couple of posts towards you. Too much unnecessary snark. I admit to disliking the attitude that dismisses Catholics as non-Christians, primarily since it was one that I once held and later regretted. Nevertheless, I can conduct a discussion better than I have, and so I apologize to you.

 

I will leave my posts unedited, since I still believe what I said in them, but I will strive to improve the tone of them in the future.

I accept you apology. I can pick up from your tone that Catholic/Christians have not impressed you in the slightest, but you seem to favor Islam over Christianity as a whole. If Christians have judged you, they are probably self-rigtheous ones. I too was reared Catholic; so, I am wondering why you come down on me for believing they are missguided when you believe the same??? Or are you just looking at me from an Islamic perspective? If that is the case, I wonder why you just don't consider yourself a Muslim? That seems to be the direction your heading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am fairly sure it would only be for Christians, since it would only be for those souls already destined for heaven. Christians believe one can go to heaven only through faith in Jesus Christ, which would include believing in his death on the cross and resurrection.

Huh, one would think that this might be a good indicator that the question wasn't directed towards you, the confirmed anti-Catholic.

Okay, I concede, I like your answer better that mine!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not really anti-Catholic when it comes to the true meaning of the word Catholic means universal; I believe there is only one church, one body, one faith!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I accept you apology. I can pick up from your tone that Catholic/Christians have not impressed you in the slightest

Well, that's not true. I actually do appreciate Catholics and Christians as a whole. I just don't like it when someone tries to exclude Catholics from being Christian.

 

but you seem to favor Islam over Christianity as a whole.

This is not true either. If I did believe in God, I am fairly certain I would be a Christian and not a Muslim.

 

If Christians have judged you, they are probably self-rigtheous ones. I too was reared Catholic; so, I am wondering why you come down on me for believing they are missguided when you believe the same???

I wouldn't say Christians are wrong. I would say that I do not believe in God, but that is because I don't see any evidence for there being a God. I don't believe I have positive proof that Christianity is wrong. And besides, if I did think Catholics were wrong, it would be for the same reason I would think Christianity is wrong. In other words, it is their commonality as Christians that would be the problem, and not some of the peculiars of Catholicism, which I find mostly incidental when compared to the fundamentals of Christianity which they hold in common with other Christians.

 

Or are you just looking at me from an Islamic perspective? If that is the case, I wonder why you just don't consider yourself a Muslim? That seems to be the direction your heading.

No, I wouldn't claim to have an Islamic perspective, although I try to have an empathetic perspective. And unfortunately for me, the direction I seem to be headed is a continuation of my unbelief.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not really anti-Catholic when it comes to the true meaning of the word Catholic means universal; I believe there is only one church, one body, one faith!

But that isn't what anti-Catholic means. I mean, if you used that measure, the most homophobic person on the planet wouldn't be anti-gay, since the word gay means happy. There is a context for these terms by which they are understood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don't forget that the Qur'an mentions Christians and Jews as having the same God as Muslims as well. I think there is a good case to be made from the Qur'an for holding to the belief that Christians are monotheistic.
.

 

But that isn't what anti-Catholic means. I mean, if you used that measure, the most homophobic person on the planet wouldn't be anti-gay, since the word gay means happy. There is a context for these terms by which they are understood.

I am not in the mood for semantics. I am against Catholics, but not all. There are many branches of Catholism. Some of which follow very closely to all I believe, but there are divisions in very religion. I don't believe in confessing my sin to a priest or calling them father, for only one is our father in heaven. I don't believe Mary is the mother of god or pray to her. I don't believe in praying to statues of saints or for the dead and many other such things. I am a Biblical believer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not in the mood for semantics. I am against Catholics, but not all. There are many branches of Catholism. Some of which follow very closely to all I believe, but there are divisions in very religion. I don't believe in confessing my sin to a priest or calling them father, for only one is our father in heaven. I don't believe Mary is the mother of god or pray to her. I don't believe in praying to statues of saints or for the dead and many other such things. I am a Biblical believer

Everyone brings something to the Bible. If anything, the Catholics are just a little more clear about what they are bringing to it. Protestants seem to have a harder time recognizing the interpretive tradition they bring to their own study of the Bible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Everyone brings something to the Bible. If anything, the Catholics are just a little more clear about what they are bringing to it. Protestants seem to have a harder time recognizing the interpretive tradition they bring to their own study of the Bible.

I am not sure what you mean about protestants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, that's not true. I actually do appreciate Catholics and Christians as a whole. I just don't like it when someone tries to exclude Catholics from being Christian.
Well isn't that what you're saying in your statement here. You are making a distinction by saying you appreciate Catholics & Christians as if Catholics weren't Christians; then you contradict yourself by saying you don't like when someone excludes Catholics from Christianity. I wouldn't say Catholics are not Christians, but I would go as far as to say they are not Biblical Christians!

 

This is not true either. If I did believe in God, I am fairly certain I would be a Christian and not a Muslim.
Really, I am impressed and surprised. You could have fooled me!

 

I wouldn't say Christians are wrong.
Again, I am surprised.

 

I would say that I do not believe in God, but that is because I don't see any evidence for there being a God.
Now sad clown you are making me sad. You know what the Bible says about those who say there is no god. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things we do not seen!

 

 

I don't believe I have positive proof that Christianity is wrong. And besides, if I did think Catholics were wrong, it would be for the same reason I would think Christianity is wrong. In other words, it is their commonality as Christians that would be the problem, and not some of the peculiars of Catholicism, which I find mostly incidental when compared to the fundamentals of Christianity which they hold in common with other Christians.
I am not sure what you mean here
No, I wouldn't claim to have an Islamic perspective, although I try to have an empathetic perspective. And unfortunately for me, the direction I seem to be headed is a continuation of my unbelief.

What is the continuation of your believe, Atheism, Prostestant/Christianity, Catholic/Christianity or Biblical/Christianity?

Edited by BurningLight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
God will not for this reason:

 

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers (10:99)

 

God could very well make everyone believe. He won't do it because He would compelling people to believe. He has chosen not do so.

This really isn't an explanation though. Why did God chose not to compel people? If the ultimate goal is for people to worship him then the idea of compulsion is superfluous. People did not exist. God existed. God creates man to worship him. By defining what man's purpose is and imposing a punishment for not doing so he is, in a sense, compelling people to a course of action. No more so than a bank robber who points a gun at you and tells you to get on the floor isn't compelling you to get on the floor, you can still resist, but the consequence is clear and so the idea of implicate compulsion is present. It's worse than that though because in a practice sense a bank robber cannot control your thought process. God, ultimately, can to achieve his ultimate aim, which is, that man worship him. In addition, God's ultimate punishment of eternal torture isn't based on a generalized sense of right and wrong, but on a very specific criteria which in essence has nothing to do with how good a person or not you are. It's whether you accept a specific dogma or not. Keep in mind you have 80 or so years to make that decision which will result in infinite, I mean, infinite torture, pain, burning, scalding, tearing, cutting, bleeding, breaking of bones, pouring of hot boiling water, fire, hot irons. Not even the most vile and despicable human being can inflict that amount of torture on another being, because at least they would die from it. God doesn't like that though, he wants you to live though it in fact he'll bring you back from the dead just to torture you again and again and again.

Edited by xocoti

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This really isn't an explanation though. Why did God chose not to compel people? If the ultimate goal is for people to worship him then the idea of compulsion is superfluous. People did not exist. God existed. God creates man to worship him. By defining what man's purpose is and imposing a punishment for not doing so he is, in a sense, compelling people to a course of action. No more so than a bank robber who points a gun at you and tells you to get on the floor isn't compelling you to get on the floor, you can still resist, but the consequence is clear and so the idea of implicate compulsion is present. It's worse than that though because in a practice sense a bank robber cannot control your thought process. God, ultimately, can to achieve his ultimate aim, which is, that man worship him. In addition, God's ultimate punishment of eternal torture isn't based on a generalized sense of right and wrong, but on a very specific criteria which in essence has nothing to do with how good a person or not you are. It's whether you accept a specific dogma or not. Keep in mind you have 80 or so years to make that decision which will result in infinite, I mean, infinite torture, pain, burning, scalding, tearing, cutting, bleeding, breaking of bones, pouring of hot boiling water, fire, hot irons. Not even the most vile and despicable human being can't inflict that amount of torture on another being, because at least they would die from it. God doesn't like that though, he wants you to live though it in fact he'll bring you back from the dead just to torture you again.

Wow, I think I agree with most of what you said. I am not sure with all of it. I know we are free to choose, but we are not free from the consequences of those choices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not sure what you mean about protestants.

I mean (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Protestantism"]Protestants[/url].

 

Well isn't that what you're saying in your statement here. You are making a distinction by saying you appreciate Catholics & Christians as if Catholics weren't Christians; then you contradict yourself by saying you don't like when someone excludes Catholics from Christianity. I wouldn't say Catholics are not Christians, but I would go as far as to say they are not Biblical Christians!

No, my statement was that I appreciated Catholics and Christians as a whole. The "as a whole" indicates that there is also a part. Catholics in that phrase are the part, and Christianity was the whole. I was careful to make sure I did not exclude them from Christianity. And I wonder what kind of Christian is a non-Biblical Christian, since the Bible is the foundational text for Christianity. Catholics are devoted to the Bible as is any other Christian. I'm not sure I would call someone who rejected the authority of the Bible a Christian. I think you are making the mistake of thinking that if they have other authorities besides the Bible then the Bible is not somehow authoritative for them.

 

Really, I am impressed and surprised. You could have fooled me!

What have I done that indicated I preferred Islam over Christianity? I am fairly certain I have not made any such indication here in this forum or elsewhere.

 

Now sad clown you are making me sad. You know what the Bible says about those who say there is no god. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things we do not see!

I do not say there is no God. I say I cannot find any sign of God. Of course there could be a God who simply leaves no sign of his existence, or I could be blind to the signs, as you might be more inclined to assert. But I do not subscribe to the more positive statement that there is no God. And perhaps you are better than me, but I was unable to sustain my faith when I could no longer detect God in my prayers or Bible reading. From my perspective, my prayers never seemed to make it any further than the echo chamber of my skull, and reading the Bible was as inspiring as a cookbook (my apologies if you find cookbooks inspiring). I could not sustain my faith in that kind of environment, although I tried for some years.

 

I am not sure what you mean here

Don't worry. It was poorly expressed. I was merely saying that my unbelief is based on a lack of evidence, not positive proof and that any problem I had with Catholicism was because it was Christian, and not because it was Catholicism.

 

What is the continuation of you believe, Atheism, Prostestant/Christianity, Catholic/Christianity or Biblical/Christianity?

Sorry, I'm not clear on what your question is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×