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The God Death

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So I take it that means you will no longer quote or look up Bible verses on the internet? Because the internet is not a book.

 

Salam.

lol, no, what i can do is have the Book next to me then look it up on the internet to cut an past to save time writing. Okay, ok I see your point.

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If a scripture or rather the author of a scripture claims: Hey I created this planet..Now we know that this planet, in all its complexities and so on, could not simply create or run it self, then it makes sense for us to investigate the claim since no sane human would ever claim such a thing. If we found within the same scripture for example, I put the earth on the back of a giant turtle and spin it, then obviously that scripture can be dismissed because of that inconsistency, we know based on facts and evidence that the earth is not sitting on a giant turtle. If the exact same account of the exact same event but differs in factual information within the same scripture, that too is inconsistency. Christians, based on the narrations from the Bible, subscribe to the belief that the entire planet was covered with flood water during the time of Noah pbuh. This has been proven wrong based on the scientific finding that there's simply won't be enough water for that to happen, no geological evidence, there were existing civilisations on other parts of the world at the same times and no record from them and so on. Inconsistent?

There is no disagreement even from the Bible scholars themselves that the authors of the Bible were men, Mark,Luke,Mathhew, John etc, which would lead to obvious conclusion, beside if anyone produce a chapter like the Bible, what does that prove since the Bible never claims such inimitability or produce such challenge. ..

The Quran however, clearly and explicitly states this: “If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our messenger, then produce one chapter like it. Call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful” Qur'an Chapter 2 Verse 23. So all that you have to do to disprove Islam is just to produce 3 sentences in Arabic that matches the Quran’s standard of literature and message. You can find out more about this challenge here:

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettheinimitablequran(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettheinimitablequran(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/[/url] I have to warn you, the best of Arabs and various others had tried for 1400 years and we are still waiting, I won be holding my breath..

I've read Hamza's site and I think the challenge of the Quran is fundamentaly flawed. There are no such things as aesthetic universals. That means there is no objective measure of eloquence, brevity, beauty etc in any work of the humanitarian arts. Thus the idea that the quran is supremely eloquent is merely a subjective opinion. One may think that the quran is supremely eloquent and another not based on their arbitrary criteria. So to produce something like the quran in eloquence is merely to subject it to the opinions of arbitrary biased judges. Hardly a "challenge" in the provable sense. Edited by xocoti

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So I take it that means you will no longer quote or look up Bible verses on the internet? Because the internet is not a book.

Without involving myself in the discussion with you and BurningLight too much (because I believe his criticism of the Qur'an is flawed on this count), there are such things as electronic books. The Bible on the internet would still be a book, it just wouldn't be a paper book.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

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I like to use this point,

Sad Clown, I told you before that there are many strong scientific verses in the Quran, that the man have no idea about at the time of the prophet and many of them just been discovered few years ago.

I am sorry, but I don't believe I am well enough acquainted with Arabic to have such a discussion about the purpose of one letter or the meaning of another. I could discuss the verse for you if you like, but the reason for an individual Arabic character is likely beyond the scope of my abilities at this time. I am assuming you think this is a proof that the Qur'an has anticipated science:

 

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

I think that this could be, but it is also open to other interpretations, and so without more detail, it could just as easily be talking about how God created an expanse of the sky to separate the world below from the world above, as the next verse mentions the earth being spread out as well. It is a start, but only that, and more would be needed in order to secure it as an actual demonstration of the prescience of the Qur'an. It becomes more problematic when two verses later it states that all things have a mate, when biology records many examples of asexual creatures for which there are no mates.

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Without involving myself in the discussion with you and BurningLight too much (because I believe his criticism of the Qur'an is flawed on this count), there are such things as electronic books. The Bible on the internet would still be a book, it just wouldn't be a paper book.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Are you saying you disagree that Quran means recitation as opposed to write?

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Without involving myself in the discussion with you and BurningLight too much (because I believe his criticism of the Qur'an is flawed on this count), there are such things as electronic books. The Bible on the internet would still be a book, it just wouldn't be a paper book.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

But if you put a recitation down on paper and into book, it is no longer a recitation; so just how does one get write out of say?

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But if you put a recitation down on paper and into book, it is no longer a recitation; so just how does one get write out of say?

It is a name, not a restriction. Redeem was correct in pointing out that just because the Bible derives its name from the word for book does not mean that it must be restricted to this form of communication only. There is nothing wrong with reciting the Bible and there is nothing wrong with writing down the Qur'an.

 

Consider this, the names of American football roles of quarterback, halfback and fullback are all related to where they were originally understood to be positioned on the field. But while the names for these roles are retained, the formation that gave them this name is not required or even expected of them. There are numerous examples of this phenomena where language has retained a name that reflects its origins but which is no longer strictly accurate for its current state.

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It is a name, not a restriction. Redeem was correct in pointing out that just because the Bible derives its name from the word for book does not mean that it must be restricted to this form of communication only. There is nothing wrong with reciting the Bible and there is nothing wrong with writing down the Qur'an.

 

Consider this, the names of American football roles of quarterback, halfback and fullback are all related to where they were originally understood to be positioned on the field. But while the names for these roles are retained, the formation that gave them this name is not required or even expected of them. There are numerous examples of this phenomena where language has retained a name that reflects its origins but which is no longer strictly accurate for its current state.

I didn't say it was a restriction to Redeem. She responded to a question I had. I asked how is having the Quran proof or evidence that it is the right path? I also said as far as I knew there was no mandate that it should even be written not that it couldn't be written. I also said, if you put a recitation down on paper and into book, it is no longer a recitation. What critcism are you referring to, and what are you disgreeing with in my dialogue with her? IMO, all I said here is true, as far has I can tell. If you believe the Quran is proof that it is the right path; then by all means don't let me stop you with my comment to Redeem.

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I am sorry, but I don't believe I am well enough acquainted with Arabic to have such a discussion about the purpose of one letter or the meaning of another. I could discuss the verse for you if you like, but the reason for an individual Arabic character is likely beyond the scope of my abilities at this time. I am assuming you think this is a proof that the Qur'an has anticipated science:

I think that this could be, but it is also open to other interpretations, and so without more detail, it could just as easily be talking about how God created an expanse of the sky to separate the world below from the world above, as the next verse mentions the earth being spread out as well. It is a start, but only that, and more would be needed in order to secure it as an actual demonstration of the prescience of the Qur'an. It becomes more problematic when two verses later it states that all things have a mate, when biology records many examples of asexual creatures for which there are no mates.

it may seemed to be complicated, i thout, one phone call, to any arabic man you know, and you will get the answer,

any how,

ÇáÓãÇÁ ...could be sky / heavens and universe too every very far over your head, the stars and plants all in the ÇáÓãÇÁ

áãæÓÚæä ... we surlly keep enlarging/vasting... it gives the present and future in meaning

 

and so the meaning will be [and We, who construct (build) the "ÇáÓãÇÁ" skiy (universe) with might (power), and we "áãæÓÚæä " surlly keep inlarging it]

 

i blieve, not sure, you did quite effort and studied some dead languages Latin, Greek, Hebrow...... to reach the real meanings of some issues in the bible.

while all what you have to do now is to print these words and keep it some where, when ever you see an arabic man ask him about it.

 

yes the translations we have seems a little different, but why speculating, we have the original Arabic Quran and 450 million Arabic speakers.

 

i didn't ask you to believe me, put if you are interested, just do a little effort, and again you may need the previous post, and a trusted arabic translator

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it may seemed to be complicated, i thout, one phone call, to any arabic man you know, and you will get the answer,

I don't know any Arabic men, at least not well enough to ask them about Islam. If I do make such an acquaintance, I'll be sure to ask them.

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I didn't say it was a restriction to Redeem. She responded to a question I had. I asked how is having the Quran proof or evidence that it is the right path? I also said as far as I knew there was no mandate that it should even be written not that it couldn't be written. I also said, if you put a recitation down on paper and into book, it is no longer a recitation. What critcism are you referring to, and what are you disgreeing with in my dialogue with her? IMO, all I said here is true, as far has I can tell. If you believe the Quran is proof that it is the right path; then by all means don't let me stop you with my comment to Redeem.

Just because the Qur'an means recitation doesn't mean it can't be written down. I tried pointing this out with my examples.

 

This was your original argument: "The Quran was never suppose to be written as far as I can tell. Quran means recitation not write."

 

My point was that the meaning of the name of the Qur'an has no bearing on whether it can be written down or not, anymore than the examples I gave you dictate what a quarterback can or cannot do. Your mistake is in thinking that the etymology of a name somehow dictates its use or state. It does not. All the etymology tells us is about the origins of the word, not how it can be used or applied at present.

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Just because the Qur'an means recitation doesn't mean it can't be written down. I tried pointing this out with my examples.

 

This was your original argument: "The Quran was never suppose to be written as far as I can tell. Quran means recitation not write."

 

My point was that the meaning of the name of the Qur'an has no bearing on whether it can be written down or not, anymore than the examples I gave you dictate what a quarterback can or cannot do. Your mistake is in thinking that the etymology of a name somehow dictates its use or state. It does not. All the etymology tells us is about the origins of the word, not how it can be used or applied at present.

Communication breakdown:

 

First of all, That was not my argument with redeem. Secondly, a Muslim might need to answer this: Is it true that Quran is not just a name? Isn't Qu'ran a directive given by Allah?

 

Finally, Bible is not a name given by God; it is not even a word in the Book. God’s word, from a Biblical perspective unlike Islam carries a directive to write and say. Bible is the name man has given to the mandated written & spoken Scriptures.

 

On the other hand, if one writes the Scriptures of the Qu’ran, it is not a recitation; if you recite from the written Bible, it still remains a written book or a Bible. No one said the Quran could NOT be written, but as far as I know it wasn't suppose to be written, but that is not a criticism. Sigh

Edited by BurningLight

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Communication breakdown:

 

First of all, That was not my argument with redeem.

I quoted you directly from this post: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737475&view=findpost&p=1249129"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...t&p=1249129[/url]

 

I suppose you are technically correct that it was not originally directed at redeem, but that doesn't change the nature of the argument.

 

The name of the Qur'an could inform us on the nature of how it was originally transmitted to the community, through the recitations of Mohammad. Does that preclude it from being written down for later transmission? I do not see any such requirement.

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I quoted you directly from this post: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737475&view=findpost&p=1249129"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...t&p=1249129[/url]

 

I suppose you are technically correct that it was not originally directed at redeem, but that doesn't change the nature of the argument.

 

The name of the Qur'an could inform us on the nature of how it was originally transmitted to the community, through the recitations of Mohammad. Does that preclude it from being written down for later transmission? I do not see any such requirement.

Yes, we are getting closer to the truth about the post. We are not there yet. That wasn't the nature of my argument. The nature of the argument was on the Quran being the evidence that Islam is the true path for all people. I added to it that I didn't see any such requirement that it was suppose to be written not that it shouldn't or couldn't be. That's it. Maybe, I should have use a different word than "suppose to" but I didn't argue with Redeem even about that side topic.

peace :sl:

Edited by BurningLight

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Yes, this is the situation we are in, and this is why there is such a diversity of opinion, and also why your analogy of doctors and pilots fails. You have not offered me any way out of my dilemma. How do I know I have made the right decision? How do I know that if one group says I am making the wrong decision that they are wrong or that I am wrong? You say that I just have to examine the proof and evidence, that God has given me the faculties to make such a judgment, and yet I am wrong according to you. How did this happen?

You know what Clown? I quoted to you verse from the Bible that says something like Abraham pbuh put a water bag AND his teenage son on his wife’s shoulder. You respond was, it could be the result of grammatical/translation mistake coming from the original Hebrew..Did you follow up on that one? Because if you did, you would find out that the Hebrew version says precisely that and the translators were well aware of the ludicrously and therefore resorted to word juggling and what not. “The woman hid her teenage son under some bushesâ€, your respond was : We don’t know how tall or big the bushes were. Hellooo?

A while back I was telling you how precise a surveyor can measure his origin from the sun or star and from there establish a land boundary point to within millimeters to settle a boundary dispute, completely acceptable in the court of law and asked you to verify this from your local surveyor, did you take me up on that one?. Yesterday, I asked you to print part of Genesis 21 and show them to your kids or some people and get them to guess the age of the boy in the narrations, did you take me up on that one?

Brother Ahmad showed you this amazing verse, here are the translations:

Sahih International

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

Muhsin Khan

With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Yusuf Ali

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.

I can almost guess what you respond to this yet another agreement and affirment of a recently discovered scientific fact, that this universe is expanding and we have a specific claim of Someone who claims to be the One who is responsible for it ..

 

So back to what you asked above, you know what? I don't think you should be asking me, how about you telling me?

Edited by RAHIMI

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I quoted to you verse from the Bible that says something like Abraham pbuh put a water bag AND his teenage son on his wife’s shoulder. You respond was, it could be the result of grammatical/translation mistake coming from the original Hebrew..Did you follow up on that one? Because if you did, you would find out that the Hebrew version says precisely that and the translators were well aware of the ludicrously and therefore resorted to word juggling and what not. “The woman hid her teenage son under some bushes”, your respond was : We don’t know how tall or big the bushes were. Hellooo?

A while back I was telling you how precise a surveyor can measure his origin from the sun or star and from there establish a land boundary point to within millimeters to settle a boundary dispute, completely acceptable in the court of law and asked you to verify this from your local surveyor, did you take me up on that one?. Yesterday, I asked you to print part of Genesis 21 and show them to your kids or some people and get them to guess the age of the boy in the narrations, did you take me up on that one?

Brother Ahmad showed you this amazing verse, here are the translations:

Sahih International

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

Muhsin Khan

With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Yusuf Ali

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.

I can almost guess what you respond to this yet another agreement and affirment of a recently discovered scientific fact, that this universe is expanding and we have a specific claim of Someone who claims to be the One who is responsible for it ..

 

So back to what you asked above, you know what? I don't think you should be asking me, how about you telling me?

The most important thing about the chp & verses in Gen 21 is not the wording used about the skin of water the child and the bushes. It is what God said to Abraham. There is no ambiquity in that whatsoever, it is very clear. God said it is the Bible. If he didn't say what I and scholars consider to be an unequivocal statment in regards to Ishmael that would be a different story. We are each accountable for what God said not the way the writer expressed the story or the terms used such as was he a child or a boy or how tall the bushes were etc lets not chase rabbits in the desert.

To say the Torah is corrupted just won't cut it either. Muhammad didn't think so. In fact, Muhammad used the OT Bible to judge the sin of adultery. The Bible being corrupted is mainstream Muslim worldview not Muhammad's view of his day. The Torah is the same today as it was during his time.

Edited by BurningLight

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The most important thing about the chp & verses in Gen 21 is not the wording used about the skin of water the child and the bushes. It is what God said to Abraham. There is no ambiquity in that whatsoever, it is very clear. God said it is the Bible. If he didn't say what I and scholars consider to be an unequivocal statment in regards to Ishmael that would be a different story. We are each accountable for what God said not the way the writer expressed the story or the terms used such as was he a child or a boy or how tall the bushes were etc lets not chase rabbits in the desert.

To say the Torah is corrupted just won't cut it either. Muhammad didn't think so. In fact, Muhammad used the OT Bible to judge the sin of adultery. The Bible being corrupted is mainstream Muslim worldview not Muhammad's view of his day. The Torah is the same today as it was during his time.

aj, we have two witnesses here, two versions of the same event, now if we subjected both witnesses to scrutiny based on common sense, rationality, sincerity, facts , evidence etc etc, which version do you think going to fly? You yourself said both can't be right...Please follow through the Isaac & Ishmael pbut thread, I'll post more on that one IA..

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aj, we have two witnesses here, two versions of the same event, now if we subjected both witnesses to scrutiny based on common sense, rationality, sincerity, facts , evidence etc etc, which version do you think going to fly? You yourself said both can't be right...Please follow through the Isaac & Ishmael pbut thread, I'll post more on that one IA..
Alright I 'll meet you there

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You know what Clown? I quoted to you verse from the Bible that says something like Abraham pbuh put a water bag AND his teenage son on his wife's shoulder. You respond was, it could be the result of grammatical/translation mistake coming from the original Hebrew..Did you follow up on that one? Because if you did, you would find out that the Hebrew version says precisely that and the translators were well aware of the ludicrously and therefore resorted to word juggling and what not. "The woman hid her teenage son under some bushes", your respond was : We don't know how tall or big the bushes were. Hellooo?

I responded that the wording from the ESV was grammatically complex and could be taken either way. I am interested in what sources you have on the Hebrew grammar of the passage. What I could find indicated that the Hebrew grammar is reflected in the ambiguous grammar of the ESV, namely there is a lack of clarity as to which verb is being served by the direct object "and the boy". I see no reason to accuse the translators of word juggling. As for the rest, I think I answered you well enough that you shouldn't have a complaint. I don't mind discussing it with you further if you like.

 

A while back I was telling you how precise a surveyor can measure his origin from the sun or star and from there establish a land boundary point to within millimeters to settle a boundary dispute, completely acceptable in the court of law and asked you to verify this from your local surveyor, did you take me up on that one?

I don't remember that one. Could you point me to which thread it was in?

 

Yesterday, I asked you to print part of Genesis 21 and show them to your kids or some people and get them to guess the age of the boy in the narrations, did you take me up on that one?

My ten year old son read it (I changed the names so it wouldn't give the story away since he has been indoctrinated in church about Ishmael and Hagar). He said he didn't know how old the child was. I know you don't want to believe me for some reason, but I am being honest with you. The English passage is grammatically complex and ambiguous, and from what I have read elsewhere, so is the Hebrew passage it is interpreting. I have no commitment to Christianity to motivate me to lie to you about this and it would not effect me at all if Christianity was wrong on this account. For all I know, you could be right, and this passage is from a text that originally indicated a young age for Ismael. Unfortunately it does not indicate this clearly and is open to legitimate interpretational differences, and since other elements of the narrative firmly fix Ishmael's age as being older, it is perfectly fine for the translators of the NIV and NASB to use these other elements to guide their translation of this difficult passage.

 

Brother Ahmad showed you this amazing verse, here are the translations:

Sahih International

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

Muhsin Khan

With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Yusuf Ali

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.

I can almost guess what you respond to this yet another agreement and affirment of a recently discovered scientific fact, that this universe is expanding and we have a specific claim of Someone who claims to be the One who is responsible for it

You don't have to guess, since I have already responded: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=737475&st=40&p=1249240entry1249240"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic...p;#entry1249240[/url]

 

So back to what you asked above, you know what? I don't think you should be asking me, how about you telling me?

I'm sorry, but it was your theory that the human faculties were capable of judging what you called sufficient evidence and proof. I cannot answer for why your theory has failed in my case, or in the case of numerous other people. If forced to answer, I would have to conclude that there is something deficient in your theory, although I do not know where such a deficiency might lie. I am sure you must have an alternate explanation. I don't mind discussing this with you.

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