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No Face Covering Allowed During Canadia Citizenship Ceremony

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The Canadian government has banned all facial coverings during the allegience ceremony for citizenship. If the woman refuses to take off her veil, she'll be asked again. I she again refuses, she will be asked to leave. Her citizenship will be denied. No special treatment for anyone.

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I believe Canada has taken the correct action. Such symbols of oppression as sacking women is an act that highlights the polarizing nature of Islam's politico-religious practices that are at odds with Western values. Ultimately, the West has no obligation to make allowance for such imposed standards as gender apartheid, subjugation of women or to endorse those practices that represent sneering disdain and a direct challenge to our laws and customs. Such symbols of oppression are relics of the 7th century. In addition, there is no concensus among Islamists as to whether this symbol of apartheid is even a religious obligation.

 

Western standards of liberal democracy and of equal rights under the law is the best leveler of disparate cultures, integrating different peoples into a free and working unity, while preserving their cultural and ethnic identities. That in no way suggests that we should abandon core principles of equality under the law in deference to others' cultural sensitivites that are, at their core, oppressive and denigrating of women. The West is under no obligation to accept such intolerance,

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I believe Canada has taken the correct action. Such symbols of oppression as sacking women is an act that highlights the polarizing nature of Islam's politico-religious practices that are at odds with Western values. Ultimately, the West has no obligation to make allowance for such imposed standards as gender apartheid, subjugation of women or to endorse those practices that represent sneering disdain and a direct challenge to our laws and customs. Such symbols of oppression are relics of the 7th century. In addition, there is no concensus among Islamists as to whether this symbol of apartheid is even a religious obligation.

 

Western standards of liberal democracy and of equal rights under the law is the best leveler of disparate cultures, integrating different peoples into a free and working unity, while preserving their cultural and ethnic identities. That in no way suggests that we should abandon core principles of equality under the law in deference to others' cultural sensitivites that are, at their core, oppressive and denigrating of women. The West is under no obligation to accept such intolerance,

Very well stated. Apparently the Canadian immigration minister was appalled when he heard that this was happening. People need to understand that their cultural and religious practices take a back seat to the greater culture and laws of the land. There can be no special treatment for any group. Acommodation can only go so far.

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That seems to be the trend these days in 'Western' countries. I suppose it was inevitable that they would pick on their own populaces, especially women, given the fact they're being defeated in Afghanistan and so they have to take their anger and frustration out on someone right?

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Very well stated. Apparently the Canadian immigration minister was appalled when he heard that this was happening. People need to understand that their cultural and religious practices take a back seat to the greater culture and laws of the land. There can be no special treatment for any group. Acommodation can only go so far.

I agree that acommodation can only go so far in some aspects, but this doesnt seem to be one. A burka, hijab, etc is not a symbol of oppression any more than a bikini is a symbol of exploitation. You have to look at individual circumstances. The minister cited that they were having trouble identifying people and verifying that they had taken the oath. That is something that can be ligitamently debated or corrected etc but the symbol of oppression bit is too reductionist.

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Such symbols of oppression as sacking women is an act that highlights the polarizing nature of Islam's politico-religious practices that are at odds with Western values.

For a Muslim woman wearing her niqab or burqa is not oppression.

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The Canadian government has banned all facial coverings during the allegience ceremony for citizenship. If the woman refuses to take off her veil, she'll be asked again. I she again refuses, she will be asked to leave. Her citizenship will be denied. No special treatment for anyone.

I think that is too bad, but it is their right to set policy on this matter.

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That seems to be the trend these days in 'Western' countries. I suppose it was inevitable that they would pick on their own populaces, especially women, given the fact they're being defeated in Afghanistan and so they have to take their anger and frustration out on someone right?

I don't think Westerns feel quite as bad about their "defeat" in Afghanistan as you seem to think they do.

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For a Muslim woman wearing her niqab or burqa is not oppression.

It may not be for you, but I have no reason to believe that you speak for all muslim women.

 

It might be easy to ask women wearing the Fem-Tent why they wear it but those answers may well be agenda or fear driven. We shouldn’t need to be reminded that most Islamist nations tend to be male dominated and patriarchal in nature. Women are typically reduced to positions that relegate them to roles subservient to men. We shouldn’t need to be reminded where those attitudes come from.

 

In order to form opinions, it’s therefore correct to seek varying experiences or to apply the experiences of others to form our positions on these issues. I found it totally believable that someone wearing a burqa could experience precisely feelings related to isolation, extreme self-consciousness, overly sensitive about anything related to her body, "I felt as if I am inside a tentâ€, etc.

 

My own opinion is that there is a certain pathology that afflicts people who would consign women to those feelings of helplessness and inadequacy as described above. It is unhealthy to treat women in a manner such that they become mere possessions-vessels/repositories of the impotent and inadequate male's fragile “honorâ€. That men and women could relate equally in every sphere of human endeavor is a concept that is so alien and so threatening to so much of the Islamist world; I suspect it is what partly fuels the engine of ineptitude that grips so much of the Islamist Middle East.

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Women are typically reduced to positions that relegate them to roles subservient to men. We shouldn't need to be reminded where those attitudes come from.

 

In order to form opinions, it's therefore correct to seek varying experiences or to apply the experiences of others to form our positions on these issues. I found it totally believable that someone wearing a burqa could experience precisely feelings related to isolation, extreme self-consciousness, overly sensitive about anything related to her body, "I felt as if I am inside a tent", etc.

I actually have some sympathy for this view, but I wanted to ask you, since your argument against Lost in Paradise that her perspective was not representative of all Muslim women, how you had established the typical position of Muslim women. This isn't an argument against you, but rather my effort to sort of move the discussion forward in a direction that could lead to some hard facts being discussed.

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That seems to be the trend these days in 'Western' countries. I suppose it was inevitable that they would pick on their own populaces, especially women, given the fact they're being defeated in Afghanistan and so they have to take their anger and frustration out on someone right?

Who is being defeated in Afghanistan? let's take stock of the embarrassingly pathetic state of affairs for the Taliban death-cultists: you're being wiped out by the hundreds whenever you try to engage infidel troops; you can only secure victories when you ambush Afghan cops, blow up kids and women in marketplaces, or kidnap some poor farmer and behead him; we've taken out your leaders and put them on display for journalists to photograph, like some cheap work of grotesque art.

 

How does it feel to be a tiresome joke of a fighting force?

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Who is being defeated in Afghanistan? let's take stock of the embarrassingly pathetic state of affairs for the Taliban death-cultists: you're being wiped out by the hundreds whenever you try to engage infidel troops; you can only secure victories when you ambush Afghan cops, blow up kids and women in marketplaces, or kidnap some poor farmer and behead him; we've taken out your leaders and put them on display for journalists to photograph, like some cheap work of grotesque art.

 

How does it feel to be a tiresome joke of a fighting force?

 

You are being dumb. Who cares? Do you really think a minister in Canada was chilling out one day, read the news about some deaths in Afghanistan and said, "Well time to go oppress some Muslims today?" Get real. It's a complete knee jerk reaction by SauranSoldier, and it doesn't really need a response except to roll your eyes.

Edited by xocoti

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I never said I am speaking for Muslim women but I think I know a lot more Muslim women that you do. And if they want to wear the burqa or niqab whats the big deal - why is it men who always feel they need to tell women what to do - you are criticising exactly what you are doing. Why should any woman be told to wear the burqa/niqab or be told to take it off! Its her decision!

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That seems to be the trend these days in 'Western' countries. I suppose it was inevitable that they would pick on their own populaces, especially women, given the fact they're being defeated in Afghanistan and so they have to take their anger and frustration out on someone right?

The western countries have made an attempt to free the enslaved populace in Afghanastan, especially the women. No human should have to live like that.

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For a Muslim woman wearing her niqab or burqa is not oppression.

Many Muslim women are forced to wear it. It is not congruent with societies in the west. Plain and simple...we don't like it. It's our right to discourage it or ban it in public places.

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I actually have some sympathy for this view, but I wanted to ask you, since your argument against Lost in Paradise that her perspective was not representative of all Muslim women, how you had established the typical position of Muslim women. This isn't an argument against you, but rather my effort to sort of move the discussion forward in a direction that could lead to some hard facts being discussed.

 

They did a poll in Paris and found 75% of women wearing these things stated they were forced to. This is an arab cultural practice designed to keep women imprisoned. I have heard many, many Muslims say it is not a requirement of the religion. I think I'll believe their point of view

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I don't think Westerns feel quite as bad about their "defeat" in Afghanistan as you seem to think they do.

 

It was a no win situation from the get go. Maybe we have given the people, especially the women some hope. For now, the women can go to school and even get some sun on their faces. Sadly, when the taliban return, they'll go back to slavery and the dark ages. How sad.

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I agree that acommodation can only go so far in some aspects, but this doesnt seem to be one. A burka, hijab, etc is not a symbol of oppression any more than a bikini is a symbol of exploitation. You have to look at individual circumstances. The minister cited that they were having trouble identifying people and verifying that they had taken the oath. That is something that can be ligitamently debated or corrected etc but the symbol of oppression bit is too reductionist.

 

In the west, it is a symbol of oppression. It is also a symbol of the west's wrestling match with it's social Libertarianism and its concern about the some of the ways of Islam in our countries. We believe in free expression but we sometimes bend over backwards too far to accomodate. Many people are angry, just below the surface. Muslims are welcome, and most conform well to society, but there is an element that is worrying. The burkha is a symbol of this.

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They did a poll in Paris and found 75% of women wearing these things stated they were forced to. This is an arab cultural practice designed to keep women imprisoned. I have heard many, many Muslims say it is not a requirement of the religion. I think I'll believe their point of view

I can't argue with that, although I am sure Muslim members are going to wonder who conducted the poll and question the reliability and bias of it. I wonder if our Muslim members know of any contradictory polls, perhaps some conducted among Muslim women in the United States?

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In the west, it is a symbol of oppression.

But surely we are able to look past how it has been symbolized (or demonized?) in the West and attempt to understand how the woman who is wearing it feels? If she doesn't want to wear it, then it is fine to support her in not wearing it, but if she does want to wear it, why should we force to to remove it?

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But surely we are able to look past how it has been symbolized (or demonized?) in the West and attempt to understand how the woman who is wearing it feels? If she doesn't want to wear it, then it is fine to support her in not wearing it, but if she does want to wear it, why should we force to to remove it?

Some countries ban it, others don't. The face is an important communication tool. We need to see a person's face. If they want to live in our society, they should show their face. We owe arab culture nothing.

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We owe arab culture nothing.

I'm not saying we owe arab culture anything. I am saying we should allow people freedom as long as it doesn't impinge upon our liberties. I don't see how it harms me. I don't feel any undeniable need to see her face if she chooses not to show it. If that were really the case, I would be under great duress during Halloween and masquerade parties. Nevermind those, I would have problems talking to people over the phone or communicating with you on this forum.

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In the west, it is a symbol of oppression

I disagree. It isn't a symbol of oppression in and of itself, but rather the individual circumstances around it. If a person wears something without coersion then it isn't oppressive. If forced to then yes. That is the framework that libertarian freedoms work under.

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Many Muslim women are forced to wear it.

Really how many muslim women did you meet that told you they are forced to wear it?

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