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Well, that's not what I am saying, although, if you are not certain of something how can you follow it? And if someone doesn't believe Islam to be the truth in their heart then they are not really Muslim.

I have found this to be true for myself. It is the reason I am no longer Christian. Nothing seems particularly certain to me anymore, although science has had enough success that it allows me to believe something, even if it is a qualified and tentative belief.

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PropellerAds
Well, that's not what I am saying, although, if you are not certain of something how can you follow it? And if someone doesn't believe Islam to be the truth in their heart then they are not really Muslim.

 

I'm not making light of this when I say that this reminds me of Yoda from Star Wars: "Do or do not. There is no try." Since I was practically raised on those movies, that's what rings in my subconscious when I read SaracenSoldier's comment -- and, frankly, that always struck me as the most difficult part of being a Jedi. I am always willing to try things, but I am often wary of committing to something definitively.

 

I have found this to be true for myself. It is the reason I am no longer Christian. Nothing seems particularly certain to me anymore, although science has had enough success that it allows me to believe something, even if it is a qualified and tentative belief.

 

I have to wonder, though, whether most people who identify with any particular religion feel this way, sad clown. That is, I suspect that many Jews, Christians, and even Muslims aren't devoted "in their hearts" to their faith. Frankly, I'm not devoted to Judaism anymore...but I don't know whether or not I can be devoted to Islam, as attracted as I am to it...

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I have to wonder, though, whether most people who identify with any particular religion feel this way, sad clown. That is, I suspect that many Jews, Christians, and even Muslims aren't devoted "in their hearts" to their faith. Frankly, I'm not devoted to Judaism anymore...but I don't know whether or not I can be devoted to Islam, as attracted as I am to it...

But I think that would be a separate issue. There is a difference between being devoted to the teachings and precepts of a religion and having doubts about the veracity of said religion. I think that there are many people who are less than zealous for their faith, but very few that continue in it when seized with doubts about it.

 

Perhaps you are right though. I have always been a person who must do something whole heartedly or else not at all. Maybe this is coloring my perspective of the matter.

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I think your last point is the most applicable here (and very much appreciated). It's not that I'm considering Islam so as to change; I'm considering it because I suspect I already think and intuit in a manner that I see reflected in Islam.

 

But, heh, my clubbing days are long over -- and none of my peers drink very much (or else they get sleepy and have to go to bed early). I already live amongst the humdrum!

 

No, my concern would be with maintaining their trust in my judgment skills. I know this is an unfair comparison, but think I if one of your friends announced he wanted a sex change. (However, he'd still date women; he just identifies more with the "thinking and intuiting" of lesbians as he perceives them.) You might be supportive and kind, but it could leave you wondering what else in his (now her) life is so alterable and changeable. I don't want my friends to think they no longer know me.

 

There may be a period where they will be watching you under a microscope, looking for ways that you have changed. Just do your best to stay true to yourself, while becoming a better person all around. They will slowly be assured that they have not lost their friend, insha'Allah.

 

May Allah guide you on the right path.

Please, keep us updated as you continue your education and decision!

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Salam brothers and sisters. Bismillah.

 

I was raised a Muslim, in a Muslim family. I'm a victim of "waswas", "suspicion", "bad whispers" or whatever it may be called where bad things comes into my mind about Allah or anything to do with Islam. Along with it comes the questions and very intense suspicions towards my faith. From the moment I'm awake until I'm asleep, throughout the day, these voices inside my head continues to insult Islam like an open challenge.

Months back, I was watching a video of Dr. Zakir Naik talking about the existence of God. He said

"All the other human beings, most of them are blindly following their parents. The christian is a christian because the father is a christian, the person is a hindu because father is a hindu, most of the Muslims are Muslims because their fathers are muslims"

 

Am I really a Muslim because my parents? I had to answer this question, as well as the questions in my head. I want to believe in Allah because of Allah, because Allah is God and God is never wrong. Not because of anything else.

I began to try answer the questions in my head, to know more about Islam.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Muslim friend was telling me about things that disturbs his faith, "How did Allah come into existence?"

 

- I told him, it's very simple! Allah has always been there.

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,

Allah , the Eternal Refuge.

He neither begets nor is born,

Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

(Quran 112)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

According to athiests, whatever which is 'unknown' to men, they believe it to be God's creation/doings.

For example:

We didnt know how the universe came into existence, so we say God created it or we didnt know why the seawater is salty, so we say God made it salty.

So athiests believe the more science matures, the more it will prove the nonexistence of God.

I have learned this to be the opposite, the more science matures, the more it shows the Quran from 1400 years ago to be true.

The sun rotates in its own orbit revealed in the Quran, science has just discovered it.

And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming. (Quran 21:33)

 

The universe formed out of an explosion (big bang):

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? (Quran 21:30)

science has just discovered this.

 

Moon is reflecting sun's light after Quran was revealed:

Blessed is He who has placed in the sky great stars and placed therein a [burning] lamp and luminous moon. (Quran 25:61)

 

Earth is round known through Sir Francis Drake in 1597:

And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse); (Quran 79:30)

(According to Dr. Zakir Naik, it also translates to the shape of an ostrich egg)

 

Universe is always expanding, everything moving away:

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. (Quran 51:47)

 

Prophet Muhammad's mirage where it was actually a long period of time, but only a short period of time on earth:

The difference in the FLOW OF TIME is proven by the differences of time that occurs in our GPS satellites.

World's largest particle accelerator in Switzerland, proves that particles that ordinarily disintegrate after 25 billionth of a second last 30 times longer when they travel almost at the speed of light.

 

So how fast did our Prophet travel on his mirage to create such a huge difference of time on earth?

 

So much more you can find in the Quran i'm sure.

 

Zakir Naik: watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM

Into the universe with Stephen Hawking: Time Travel

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Some say that the Quran claims the sun sets in the murky water which is scientifically impossible:

So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (Quran 18:85-86)

 

The Quran is speaking about what Dhul-Qarnain/Zulkarnain saw from his point of view, from his own eyes. The Quran is NOT saying that the sun set on the murky water. That's how precise the Quran is, and also shows how important it is for us to know the language used in the Quran as some words might not be translated perfectly.

 

How can the same Quran that revealed to us so much about the sun and unknown things to us say something which scientifically impossible? It is us who do not know or unable to understand.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

We will be judged according to our own deeds. I try my best not to care about what others think about me when it comes to Islam, because they are indeed not going to answer for my deeds to God. No one will dare share the punishment for each other.

So why should I be concerned about people around me who are actually ignorant?

Whatever Islam says is the truth.

 

Islam forbids intoxications, drugs alcohol etc. Why not?

Intoxication makes people irrational, shameless, stupid and whatnot. I dont wanna be any of that, nor i care about people who demands it.

 

Islam asks you to cover your body. Why not?

I wouldnt want my friends to look at my wife and be sexual aroused, or even think of her in a sexual way. Of course it must be starting from my wife to cover herself to prevent these sexually oriented thoughts from other people's mind.

 

Islam forbids murder, do i even have to explain this?

Islam forbids stealing, do i even have to explain this?

Islam forbids robbery, do i even have to explain this?

Islam forbids gambling, once a rich man, now he's a beggar, i do not believe anyone not to hear these stories.

Islam forbids pork, look at this dirty creature, it's nature, it's sound, how it mates. It eats everything, does everything. I dont wanna eat it nor be it.

 

Islam asks you to respect, why not?

Islam asks you to have patience, why not?

Islam asks you to have knowledge, why not?

Islam asks you to give charity, why not?

Islam asks you to help the poor, why not?

 

Islamic law only punishes people with SOLID & PROVEN reason, i was told that even if I saw a man and a lady coming out from a prostitution center, even that it's not enough to say they did something wrong. The guy might've just saved the girl from that place, who knows? Everything has to be confirmed and proven.

I heard ONLY HABITUAL thieves will receive the punishment for stealing. It is not allowed to punish the thief if he stole to survive.

 

So much more.... there's so much more, and they're so easy to see and understand why.

 

I am a Muslim yes.

 

I hope some of it helps. I'm sorry for any mistakes i've made. Allah have mercy.

 

Salam

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Assalam alaikum

 

I suggest to read this short pdf right now:

 

you are not allowed to post links yetonereason(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/media/The_Man_In_The_Red_Underpants_book.pdf

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Salam brothers and sisters. Bismillah.

 

Some say that the Quran claims the sun sets in the murky water which is scientifically impossible:

So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (Quran 18:85-86)

 

The Quran is speaking about what Dhul-Qarnain/Zulkarnain saw from his point of view, from his own eyes. The Quran is NOT saying that the sun set on the murky water. That's how precise the Quran is, and also shows how important it is for us to know the language used in the Quran as some words might not be translated perfectly.

Salam

wa alykom alsalam wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh, brother

Gazak Alla khyer for the very nice post,

 

may Allah reward you and Dr/Zakir as the best he, almighty, grant the good people,

 

In Fact it's so simple to imagine this righteous king journey, and find that it's just add one more evidence about the ultimate accuracy of the Quran.

Just tell any one, travel from the far west of the earth to the far east of it, and that's mostly is the human immigration path from west to east.

 

The far west will be the western coast of Africa, where the most famous view will be the sun set to the Atlantic ocean. While the far east will be the eastern coast of American continent, where the most famous view will be the sun rise from the ocean without any kind of hindrances (mountains/hells) from the Atlantic ocean

 

018.086 Y: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water……

 

018.090 Y: Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun

 

see the attached photo, the sailing man is from Morocco's coast.

 

And yes, brother no one can transfer any text from a language, exactly, to any other language, especially from Arabic and more especially the "Arabic Quran". and so we will need to review the old translations every now and then.

 

May Allah show us the right as right and strengthen us to follow it.

EarthOrthographicMapProjection1111.jpg

Edited by AHMAD_73

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That interpretation seems quite a stretch, and requires quite a bit of imaginative thinking to accomplish. On one level, I wonder how you can know that this is the correct interpretation given the figurative nature of the language used. On a lower, more pragmatic level, your picture doesn't look like a spring of black or murky water, although I am sure you can find a way to rationalize even this.

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Assalam alaikum

 

I suggest to read this short pdf right now:

 

######onereason(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/media/The_Man_In_The_Red_Underpants_book.pdf

 

Ok, but, rather than feeling it's a homework assignment, could you give me some context as to why this feels like an important thing for me to read? That is, what is it such that it could aid me?

 

That interpretation seems quite a stretch, and requires quite a bit of imaginative thinking to accomplish. On one level, I wonder how you can know that this is the correct interpretation given the figurative nature of the language used. On a lower, more pragmatic level, your picture doesn't look like a spring of black or murky water, although I am sure you can find a way to rationalize even this.

 

I want to keep up with this discussion, but you folks have kind of lost me. Could you explain the relevance of all this to me?

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Salam,

Wow, really amazing and logical information.

 

[at]Absolute truth: Very nice pdf brother, i haven't finished reading it but whatever i've read, it's simply amazing, i'll finish it InsyaAllah.

 

[at]AHMAD_73: Thank you very much brother for the support and giving an even better understanding, i adore this kind of solid and detailed explanation. I really appreciate it.

 

"May Allah show us the right as right and strengthen us to follow it."

May Allah forgive us, bless us with heaven and save us from hellfire.

Amin.

Salam.

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[at]odyssean

I'm sorry if what i've wrote was not exactly the things u wanted. I was just trying to point out how I confirmed my faith and made it even stronger, hoping it would've help you to do the same.

Let me try again.

 

I'm a 30-something Caucasian male born and raised in New England. I was raised Jewish but have come to see that as more a culture/tradition than an active religious identity for myself. Instead, I'm fascinated by Islam.

 

This fascination comes from some very obvious sources: my spouse, my academic studies, the post-9/11 environment, etc. But, for a very long time now, I've thought about converting.

 

That's mostly why I'm here -- I'm trying to sort out my motives for considering conversion, where it leaves me with Judaism, and what sort of Muslim I can/will be. I live a fairly secular life and don't foresee a radical change in lifestyle; rather, I'm trying to work through how I see myself and how I identify myself.

 

So you're here because of your fascination towards Islam, to sort out your motives and to know what sort of Muslim you can or will be. You expect no major changes in your lifestyle. Ok so let's see, this is the kind of Muslim you must be:

 

1. You will believe that there is no God except Allah and Muhammad (S.A.W) is Allah's Messenger, and you will verbally declare it in front of 2 witnesses.

2. You will pray 5 times a day to Allah.

3. You will fast for 30 days in a year where you will fight with your own desires. (Eat, drink, sexual desires, and various other sins during the fast)

4. You will give a small portion of your wealth to the poor, needy, slaves, travellers etc

5. You will to for Hajj (pilgrimage) if you're able (physically, or by wealth etc)

 

These are the 5 pillars of Islam, I personally dont think that they're major unaffordable changes in your life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The rest:

You will follow the basic morals of course, no lying, cheating, killing, gambling. etc. just like how everyone should be.

Whatever good things you do you start it by the name of Allah.

 

Appearance:

You can dress up anyhow you want, as long as you cover from your belly button to your knees (for males), i think the intention is not to sexually tempt anyone.

No beard needed unless you adore Allah's Prophet, Muhammad (S.A.W) so much that you want a beard because he had one.

You cant wear gold in large amount (for males), just enough as salary of the caretaker of your body+/price of the white cloth in case you pass away.

 

Food & Drinks:

No pork or dirty things.

Nothing that can harm you, drugs, tobacco, drugs etc.

Nothing that intoxicates you or makes you go out of your sanity.

 

Hygene:

Bath of course, a daily life thing.

We Muslims like to wear perfumes/fragrances during occasions or prayers because our Prophet Muhammad used to use them (so I've heard).

Obviously you are going to clean yourself 5 times a day (face, hands, feet etc) in order to offer prayers.

You will have to take bath after every sexual intercourse or ejaculate semen (willingly/unwillingly).

Should try to avoid bad breath.

 

Mental state/way of thinking:

Easy, just try your best to follow what Allah has revealed to you in the Quran and examples from the life of our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W).

Once you know that you're trying, surrender everything to Allah and be confident in your life and by Allah's mercy Allah will guide you.

That's one of the best gift of being a Muslim, you cannot possibly learn all the tricks of life, you can only try and surrender to Allah with much humiliation, that we are nothing without Allah.

Even the words and language we use to praise Allah is created by Allah, that's how helpless we are, should we not surrender to Allah with much humiliation?

 

Attitude:

Smile? If there's nothing good to say, stay silent. No arrogance or jealousy, they're the traits of satan. Avoid arguments, stick to the truth.

 

Wealth/business:

You cant take interests.

 

I think pretty much these are the things you'll have to face when you're a Muslim InsyaAllah.

Does it sound like a major change in your life? If it does, are they not for the better?

 

Hope it helps.

Forgive me for my mistakes. May Allah have mercy.

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I want to keep up with this discussion, but you folks have kind of lost me. Could you explain the relevance of all this to me?

I was referring to (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737587&view=findpost&p=1250235"]Ahmad's post[/url], and in particular to the picture at the bottom of the post.

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your picture doesn't look like a spring of black or murky water, although I am sure you can find a way to rationalize even this.

Sad Clown, have a nice day

Insha'a Allah I can rationalize this. You, too, can expand your pattern* to get it into. No one can change any other's mind but Allah.

 

Although the Moslem brothers, me too, will not care too much about the Journey places, simply because we believe our god, we have to care more about the lessons from the story.

1- The righteous ruler will be provided with endless powers from Allah.

2- The righteous people will find who will help them from wherever they know or don't know. May be a king, powerful man, poor man, money, happiness,….Allah will help them.

3- We have to help others without waiting for reward (building the barrier)

4- We have to depend on our selves, Zulqarnain asked their honost efforts to help them.

 

But this time, the meaning of this word will be important since it's used elsewhere;

Allah tells in the Quran

 

015.026 " æóáóÞóÏú ÎóáóÞúäóÇ ÇáÅöäÓóÇäó ãöä ÕóáúÕóÇáò ãøöäú ÍóãóÅò ãøóÓúäõæäò "[using large font size is not allowed]

Y: We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

P: Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered,

S: And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.

 

The Arabic word "ÕáÕÇá" indicates a easily formed clay (plastic deformation)

The word " Íãà " indicates heated up tell color change, in case of dust it may reach different degrees of black.

The word "ãÓäæä" indicates softness

 

The point here, the same word "ÍãÃ" but for feminine this time " ÍóãöÆóÉò " is used in the other place,

018.086 "ÍóÊøóì ÅöÐóÇ ÈóáóÛó ãóÛúÑöÈó ÇáÔøóãúÓö æóÌóÏóåóÇ ÊóÛúÑõÈõ Ýöí Úóíúäò ÍóãöÆóÉò"[using large font size is not allowed]

Y: …. the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: …

P: …. setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, …

S: … the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, ….

 

And so, "ÍãÆÉ " means heated up tell dark colors, mostly a degrees from dark red to black

The word "Úíä" could be a spring, or an eye or any circular/near circular shape

 

*do you remember the video of the man who talks about "finding a watch on the ground that made by no one", then he explained how man will organize his mind with a pre-prepared patterns. this pattern for the Moslem claims, and this one for my honored teachers, and so on....

and before hearing or discussing, he have the pre-judgment and the storing place, either he played with the words, or it's not clear or it's flexible or may be by chance or not very specified,.....or even unknown. but it will not get out the pattern, even if we needed to expand it.

 

Allah tells in the Quran"

028.056 S: Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way.

 

Sad Clown, i didn't mean you personally, i meant a general talk, but i felt i have to say that, generally, Pardon me

 

Allah knows best, I'm asking his forgiveness for my mistakes. Amen

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Sad Clown, have a nice day

Insha'a Allah I can rationalize this. You, too, can expand your pattern* to get it into. No one can change any other's mind but Allah.

The Atlantic ocean is not particularly black, nor is it particularly muddy, nor is it a spring, nor is it round, nor is it an eye. The only connection I see is that both are associated with water. That is too loose a connection for me to justify identifying this verse with the Atlantic ocean. I don't think it is particularly unreasonable of me to find this a difficult association to make.

 

 

*do you remember the video of the man who talks about "finding a watch on the ground that made by no one", then he explained how man will organize his mind with a pre-prepared patterns. this pattern for the Moslem claims, and this one for my honored teachers, and so on....and before hearing or discussing, he have the pre-judgment and the storing place, either he played with the words, or it's not clear or it's flexible or may be by chance or not very specified,.....or even unknown. but it will not get out the pattern, even if we needed to expand it.

You are right, which is why I do my best to understand the perspective of others. I am not perfect, and it is true that I do not have an objective view of these matters, but given the frequent accusations I have faced in this forum of being pro-Muslim, I don't think that I am entirely failing in trying to understand your perspective. Quite honestly, even if I were Muslim, I would find your interpretation far fetched and implausible, that this verse is somehow referring to human migration patterns and leads us to associate a murky/muddy spring with the Atlantic ocean. It would be easier for me to believe that there was just a murky/muddy spring then to try to force your interpretation into the passage.

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i'm so happy that you shared in this,

 

all what i did say and tried to prove is this " Úíä ÍãÆÉ" is a heated up (more dark than normal) near-circular shape, and that will be mostly the sun and the rings around it in air and sea.

 

yes, the translations are not too accurate, because it's too diffeculte to translate the Quran, we will need the Arabic Quran forever.

 

i like to end this, and not to personalize issues

 

have a nice day/night

00001.jpg

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i'm so happy that you shared in this,

 

all what i did say and tried to prove is this " Úíä ÍãÆÉ" is a heated up (more dark than normal) near-circular shape, and that will be mostly the sun and the rings around it in air and sea.

Why would something heated up be darker than normal? A brand is brighter when it is heated up. Incandescent lightbulbs likewise function in this manner as do a number of other objects and substances when heated up. Are you suggesting from your image that this murky/muddy/dark/heated up thing is the sun? Wouldn't this mean that this verse is saying that the sun sets where the sun sets? I suppose I cannot argue with that, since it is true as a tautology, but it doesn't seem to explain very much and I wouldn't call it a scientific miracle.

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Why would something heated up be darker than normal? A brand is brighter when it is heated up. Incandescent lightbulbs likewise function in this manner as do a number of other objects and substances when heated up. Are you suggesting from your image that this murky/muddy/dark/heated up thing is the sun? Wouldn't this mean that this verse is saying that the sun sets where the sun sets? I suppose I cannot argue with that, since it is true as a tautology, but it doesn't seem to explain very much and I wouldn't call it a scientific miracle.

1- neither I, if you returned back to the subject, the brother was tring to deffend an attack on that verse and i did the same, we just tried to show it as normal not miracle.

2- yes there is a far west position and the sun will sit down like that, and there is a far east position and the sun will rise up like that.

3- the dust that man is made of, turned more darker after heated up, and the sun during sitting down seems darker than normal.

 

wonna discuss miracles, we can when ever you like,

but, you have to know, the Quran is the god messege to every individual person. i'm just trying to help, to explain what i have in Arabic into English, and so, i'm not god's interpreter and if i said some thing not very accurate it will be my fault.

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1- neither I, if you returned back to the subject, the brother was tring to deffend an attack on that verse and i did the same, we just tried to show it as normal not miracle.

I know what started it. It was my post: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737587&view=findpost&p=1250245"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...t&p=1250245[/url]

 

My original objection is what we are still talking about, namely what is being identified by the dark/murky/muddy/heated spring/circular thing/eye. I didn't disagree with the brother, since he was just saying that the sun didn't literally descend into a murky spring. I thought that was a reasonable interpretation. Your interpretation was that it was somehow referencing human migratory patterns and so pointed to the Atlantic ocean, which I thought was more difficult to accept, and so mentioned it.

 

2- yes there is a far west position and the sun will sit down like that, and there is a far east position and the sun will rise up like that.

What does that have to do with a dark/murky/muddy/heated spring in which the Sun at least figuratively descended into?

 

3- the dust that man is made of, turned more darker after heated up, and the sun during sitting down seems darker than normal.

So you really do think that this verse is saying something as trivial as the sun sets where the sun sets? That doesn't seem to be what the brother was saying, but I guess you can't go wrong with stating the obvious.

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I know what started it. It was my post: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737587&view=findpost&p=1250245"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...t&p=1250245[/url]

 

My original objection is what we are still talking about, namely what is being identified by the dark/murky/muddy/heated spring/circular thing/eye. I didn't disagree with the brother, since he was just saying that the sun didn't literally descend into a murky spring. I thought that was a reasonable interpretation. Your interpretation was that it was somehow referencing human migratory patterns and so pointed to the Atlantic ocean, which I thought was more difficult to accept, and so mentioned it.

What does that have to do with a dark/murky/muddy/heated spring in which the Sun at least figuratively descended into?

So you really do think that this verse is saying something as trivial as the sun sets where the sun sets? That doesn't seem to be what the brother was saying, but I guess you can't go wrong with stating the obvious.

you may like to read the story of this king 18:86-90 or the full story 18:83-98, and explanations. this site provides ibn Katheer explanation (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicstudies.info/ibnkathir/ibnkathir.php?sid=18&tid=30770"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicstudies.info/ibnkathir/i...8&tid=30770[/url],

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Assalamualaikum, Bismillah.

 

Obviously our intentions are to study/understand the message of Allah better, to be more precise, to know.

We might not speak the same language, have the same amount of knowledge or way of understanding.

We might not even understand everything in the Quran, but we can only try.

 

Maybe I didn't understand everything that brother AHMAD_73 said, as I'm weak in geography I admit. But maybe brother AHMAD_73 is weak in English as his signature mentions.

So I would expect him to excuse me for having less knowledge about geography, and I certainly will excuse him if he has trouble explaining in English.

 

I'm certain,

if we gave the Quran to the dumbest person, he will not be able to explain everything, same way

if we gave the Quran to the smartest person, he will also not be able to explain everything.

Because there's so much of the past that we don't know of, we weren't there, we cant interpret exactly.

There's so much of the future, we cant interpret exactly as well.

 

A man can only understand the greatness of Allah by his knowledge,

A man in the past might've said "wow! how mighty is Allah, who created this huge mountain!", because the mountain is the biggest thing he could see.

A man in our modern world might say "wow! how mighty is Allah the one who created this universe!" because the universe is the biggest thing he knows about.

 

I think we should try to understand each other better by doing a bit of our own study.

 

Sorry for any mistakes, Allah have mercy.

May Allah guide us to the straight path, save us from hellfire and reward us with heaven. Amen.

 

 

Salam.

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Assalamualaikum, Bismillah.

 

Obviously our intentions are to study/understand the message of Allah better, to be more precise, to know.

We might not speak the same language, have the same amount of knowledge or way of understanding.

We might not even understand everything in the Quran, but we can only try.

 

Maybe I didn't understand everything that brother AHMAD_73 said, as I'm weak in geography I admit. But maybe brother AHMAD_73 is weak in English as his signature mentions.

So I would expect him to excuse me for having less knowledge about geography, and I certainly will excuse him if he has trouble explaining in English.

 

I'm certain,

if we gave the Quran to the dumbest person, he will not be able to explain everything, same way

if we gave the Quran to the smartest person, he will also not be able to explain everything.

Because there's so much of the past that we don't know of, we weren't there, we cant interpret exactly.

There's so much of the future, we cant interpret exactly as well.

 

A man can only understand the greatness of Allah by his knowledge,

A man in the past might've said "wow! how mighty is Allah, who created this huge mountain!", because the mountain is the biggest thing he could see.

A man in our modern world might say "wow! how mighty is Allah the one who created this universe!" because the universe is the biggest thing he knows about.

 

I think we should try to understand each other better by doing a bit of our own study.

 

Sorry for any mistakes, Allah have mercy.

May Allah guide us to the straight path, save us from hellfire and reward us with heaven. Amen.

Salam.

alsalamo alykom wa rahmat Allah, brother

Gazak Allah khyer for the soft nice notes,

 

i really don't know if what i did is allowed from Islamic point of view or no, sure i'll ask very soon,

 

what i draw was a probable scenario for this king "Dhul-Qarnayn" journey, and i don't mean that's the only real explanation.

 

1- in Ibn Katheir Tafseer: ill quote from his talk

﴿حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ﴾

(Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun,) means, he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun's setting, which is the west of the earth. ..........

and so i felt that will be on the west coast of Africa

 

2- what he saw at that place was:

﴿وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِى عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ﴾

(he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah) meaning, he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean. This is something which everyone who goes to the coast can see: it looks as if the sun is setting into the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it is fixed. Hami'ah is, according to one of the two views, derived from the word Hama'ah, which means mud

 

3- i got the meanings of the two key wards here from "Moagam (dictionary) of the meaning of the wards of Quran" authored by: Al-Ragheb Al- Asfahany

the word,, "حمئة " means heated up tell dark colors, it is from the arbic root "Hamaa حمى" (in case of human creation process "حمأ" a heated up mud/dust tell dark color (black)"

The word "عين" could be a spring, or an eye or any circular/near circular shape, and some others.

 

and so: the explanations are :

A- English translations, the sum seems as sinking into dark (black) spring (sea) of water.

 

B- the sun seems like heated up (more than normal) in circular or near circular shape [like the old kind furnace from a far away]. (my suspect point of view, i'll make sure about it from a Quran scholar, as soon as possible)

 

4- then he directed east:

﴿ثُمَّ أَتْبَعَ سَبَباً - حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَطْلِعَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَطْلُعُ عَلَى قَوْمٍ لَّمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُمْ مِّن دُونِهَا سِتْراً - كَذَلِكَ وَقَدْ أَحَطْنَا بِمَا لَدَيْهِ خُبْراً ﴾

(89. Then he followed (another) way,) (90. Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We (Allah) had provided no shelter against the sun.) (91. So (it was)! And We knew all about him (Dhul-Qarnayn).)

 

5- on the same way as (1) i supposed the far east that Dhul-Qarnayn can reach will be the eastern coast of America. based on a good tradition mentioned in "Al-Bedaih wa Alnehayah, البداية و النهاية " by Ibn Katheer and others, "4 kings ruled the world ...and mentioned one of them is Dhul-Qarnayn".

 

6- what was the important feature there:

th eastern coast of America fulfills the criteria of the place where there is no shelter against the rising sun (which mostly a terrain, and could be houses or cloth too), and may be all together. i believe all of them are applicable there.

yes there could be other scenarios.

 

finally:

i may be right and i may be wrong, and i'll make sure of a Quran scholar as soon as i can.

as a Moslem, the lessons of the story (i mentioned in a previous post) are more important than what tried to do.

may Allah forgive me if i did some thing wrong

Edited by AHMAD_73

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you may like to read the story of this king 18:86-90 or the full story 18:83-98, and explanations. this site provides ibn Katheer explanation (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicstudies.info/ibnkathir/ibnkathir.php?sid=18&tid=30770"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicstudies.info/ibnkathir/i...8&tid=30770[/url],

Sorry, his explanation didn't make any more sense than yours did. How do you get "he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah" to mean the same as "he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean" when Hami'ah is derived from the word for mud?

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Sorry, his explanation didn't make any more sense than yours did. How do you get "he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah" to mean the same as "he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean" when Hami'ah is derived from the word for mud?

 

The sun was not setting in murky water or mud, nor was it going into the water. This was described from the vantage point of Dhul Qarnayn, as evidenced by the phrasing of the words "he found it setting" and not "it was setting". The first one is from the POV of the individual mentioned, the second one would be from the POV of the narrator (Allah). As for Hami'ah; to the eyes of Dhul Qarnayn, the water was darker and murkier, and it is compared with mud because of this. Not because it is literally made of mud.

 

And this is not a modern interpretation. It is the interpretation given by the commentators (Ibn Kathir, Qurtubi, etc) centuries ago.

 

Salam.

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The sun was not setting in murky water or mud, nor was it going into the water. This was described from the vantage point of Dhul Qarnayn, as evidenced by the phrasing of the words "he found it setting" and not "it was setting".

And I said I thought that this was reasonable (see this (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737587&view=findpost&p=1250298"]post[/url]).

 

 

The first one is from the POV of the individual mentioned, the second one would be from the POV of the narrator (Allah). As for Hami'ah; to the eyes of Dhul Qarnayn, the water was darker and murkier, and it is compared with mud because of this. Not because it is literally made of mud.

Are you saying that the Atlantic ocean looked like a muddy (or murky) spring to Dhul Qarnayn? Why is it interpreted this way instead of just understanding that he saw the sun appear to set in a dark or muddy spring?

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