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Wesley

The Return Of Jesus

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As most in here believe Jesus will be back as part of the Last Day prophecies and its fulfillment, tell me

 

How will you know that it is in fact Jesus? The first time He came, most disbelieved.

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Insh'Allah someone will post the actual hadith. Basically Jesus(peace be upon him) will return at the white minaret in Damascus when it is time for Fajr prayer. He will descend resting his hands on the wings of two angels.

 

Interesting thing to note here is that Damascus wasn't even under Muslim rule when Prophet Muhammad(saw) said this. And I believe now there is a masjid with a white minaret in Damascus. Not sure however.

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This is about the Anti-Christ and the Return of Jesus(as). However, if you just want to know about the return of Jesus(as) then listen/watch from 25 min onwards:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=cSTfHVAT-4A"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=cSTfHVAT-4A[/url]

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Insh'Allah someone will post the actual hadith. Basically Jesus(peace be upon him) will return at the white minaret in Damascus when it is time for Fajr prayer. He will descend resting his hands on the wings of two angels.

 

Interesting thing to note here is that Damascus wasn't even under Muslim rule when Prophet Muhammad(saw) said this. And I believe now there is a masjid with a white minaret in Damascus. Not sure however.

It would seem to be a tradition created under the Ummayyid Caliphate, you know, the ones who authorized the compilation of traditions. Who narrated the tradition and under which compilation?

 

Will the descent be similar as when the dove came down upon Jesus when he came the first time or different?

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It would seem to be a tradition created under the Ummayyid Caliphate, you know, the ones who authorized the compilation of traditions. Who narrated the tradition and under which compilation?

 

Will the descent be similar as when the dove came down upon Jesus when he came the first time or different?

 

1 - I am not sure but it's been mentioned so many times by so many Shaykhs, lecturers, scholars that I'm sure it is an authentic narration. That's why I said 'insh'Allah someone will post the actual hadith'.

 

2 - I don't recall hearing anything like that.

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(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmuftisays(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/blog/Seifeddine-M/1271_28-02-2011/ahadeeth-pertaining-to-the-descent-of-sayyidina-isa-(jesus-.-peace-be-upon-him).html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmuftisays(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/blog/Seifeddine-M...-upon-him).html[/url]

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1 - I am not sure but it's been mentioned so many times by so many Shaykhs, lecturers, scholars that I'm sure it is an authentic narration. That's why I said 'insh'Allah someone will post the actual hadith'.

 

2 - I don't recall hearing anything like that.

 

:sl:

 

Sayyidina an-Nawas b. Sam'an (ÑÖí Çááå Úäå) (while relating the story of Dajjal) reports: "Meantime when Dajjal will be engaged in perpetrating such deeds, God shall send Christ, son of Mary. Christ (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) will descend near the white tower in the eastern quarter of Damascus, wearing two pieces of yellow garment and resting his hands upon the arms of two angels. When he will bend his head, it would seem that drops of water would fall down from his head and when he will raise his head it would seem as if pearls would be trickling in the form of drops. Any infidel who will be within reach of the air of his breath, and the air of his breath willr each as far as his eye would see - will not escape death. Later the son of Mary will pursue Dajjal and will overtake him at the gate of Lydda [Please note that Lod (modern Lydda) is situated at a distance of few miles from Tel Aviv, the capital of the State of israel in Palestine. The Jews have built a large air-base at this place.] and put him to death." (Muslim, Dhikr Dajjal; Abu Dawud, Kitab ul-Malahim, Bab: Khuruj; Dajjal; Tirmidhi, Abwab ul-Fitan; Bab: Fi Fitna al-Dajjal; Ibn Majah, Kitab ul-Fitna, Bab: Fitna al-Dajjal)

 

From the above link.

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2 - I don't recall hearing anything like that.

 

It is in a Book called the Gospel, you know, a Book the Qur'an says is Truth. It would be wise to learn what the Qur'an is true instead of focusing solely on sources the Qur'an does not even mention.

 

Here is the actual verse in the Gospel:

 

1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

 

1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 

(King James Bible, John)

 

Here is the Qur'an based summary of this event.

 

87. We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a Messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

 

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2)

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Since the majority of the world, to include those who lived in the area Jesus lived, did not believe Jesus had descended from heaven.... what makes a believer certain they will know when Jesus will descend from Heaven again?

 

maybe I should ask it this way...

 

If Jesus was born from the womb of a woman, the holy Virgin Mary, yet is described as having descended from Heaven... how will Jesus's 2nd coming be recognized? Would it be possible that Muslims not believe Jesus came, if he came?

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24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

 

24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

(King James Bible, Matthew)

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It is in a Book called the Gospel, you know, a Book the Qur'an says is Truth. It would be wise to learn what the Qur'an is true instead of focusing solely on sources the Qur'an does not even mention.

 

 

The Gospel is not the absolute truth(the Gospel available today). It is mixed with falsehood. There is some truth and some things that people added over time.

 

Now, if you are trying to discredit ahadeeth then let me assure you that you will not get anywhere. A Muslim can NEVER EVER take the gospel that we have today over the ahadeeth of The final Messenger of Allah, our beloved Muhammad(saw).

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The Gospel is not the a##olute truth(the Gospel available today). It is mixed with falsehood. There is some truth and some things that people added over time.

 

Now, if you are trying to discredit ahadeeth then let me ######ure you that you will not get anywhere. A Muslim can NEVER EVER take the gospel that we have today over the ahadeeth of The final Messenger of Allah, our beloved Muhammad(saw).

 

What is false about the above quote from the Gospel? Do you know the Hour when He will return?

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What is also interesting is that there is no doubt regarding what was in the Gospel during the life of His holiness Muhammad.

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Plus, it would be unthinkable to imagine humans have greater will than God. By this I mean, God left the Gospel as a guide and judgment to mankind. If the Gospel were no longer to exist, then by what standard could God judge mankind? Surely not every Christian from 0-622AD were doomed. This is why the Qur'an does not say mankind does not have the Gospel, the Gospel still existed and exists today. The Qur'an said mankind created other books claiming it is from God and that mankind changed the meanings of the Gospel.

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I don’t understand what you guys are getting at? The Gospel contradicts the Quran, if you are honest you cannot follow both of them at the same time.

 

God bless,

 

Believe what you must. What do you believe in exactly.. like.. the top 10 tenets of your personal faith? It would be interesting for a new topic. By the way, I would never lie to you.

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I don’t understand what you guys are getting at? The Gospel contradicts the Quran, if you are honest you cannot follow both of them at the same time.

 

God bless,

 

Hi Augustine,

 

I can see why as a person who considers the Gospel to uphold the trinitarian doctrine you see things that way, however even with in Christianity there are people who do not believe that the Gospel upholds the view of the trinitarians. Once you get past this view I beleive it is relatively simple to support the view that one can follow the Qur'an and the Gospel.

 

Kind regards :)

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I'm a Catholic.

 

One of the tenets would be the Pope is the Lord's Vicar on Earth?

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How do you deal with the Quran denying the crucifixion of Jesus which the Gospel affirms?

 

God bless,

 

4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;" but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. 4:158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 4:159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.

 

Just a few points I o##erve between this and the accounts in the Gospels.

1) The Gospels testify Jesus did not die. His body gave up the Spirit a few hours before the body died. A few days later the Spirit appeared to the disciples although they did not immediately recognize it was Jesus until later.

2) Both the Gospel and Qur'an thus state Jesus did not die.. nor was he killed.

3) The Qur'an also states the power over life and death belongs to God only. This does not go against the Qur'an. Technically another human cannot kill another.

4) Once again, Jesus was not crucified. The Gospel tells the first time Spirit Jesus walked with the disciples, they could not recognize Him. This means no obvious crucifixion marks, probably a new body of sorts. Later He appeared again and there were the marks. One disciple was even asked to touch it. It was then they believed it was Jesus. A body, formerly used by jesus, was crucified but as Jesus is more than just a body, He Himself was not crucified.

 

 

Now back to the original point of the topic, How would you know if Jesus was here when even the disciples didn't recognize Him immediately? They knew Him most intimately.

Edited by Wesley

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Yes

 

The concept of Lord's Vicar isn't exactly a Biblical concept although I understand how the church came to make this claim from Jesus telling Peter he is the Rock of the church. I find it interesting the Pope lost all temporal power in 1870 and later su##tituted the claim of temporal power for that of religious infallibility. Infallible means "free from error." Do you believe the Popes through the centuries have been infallible? Is this Biblically supported? Also, if the Papal office has authority from God, why did it lose temporal power in 1870?

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We can debate what certain verses mean which I don’t think would get us far, but there is one irrefutable fact we must consider, the verse you quoted says “nor crucified him”. The verses below say Jesus was crucified:

 

And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him.” – Mark16:6

 

And they crucified Him, and divided up His garments among themselves, casting lots for them to decide what each man should take.” – Mark 15:24

 

It was the third hour when they crucified Him” – Mark 15:25

 

I can give you many more verses but I think these verses suffice. The Quran says Jesus was not crucified, the Gospel says he was and so you have a contradiction my friend. You cannot honestly follow the Quran and the Gospel.

 

God bless,

 

Hi Augustine,

 

It is agreed that the verses outwardly appear to contradict, however consider the matter carefully. "to the disblievers it was made to appear so".

 

The Jews believe that a person who is crucified is accursed by God. Thus by crucifying the non-essential part of Jesus (ie the body), it appeared to them that they had crucified the essential part (ie the soul). Thus the reason it appeared to the disbelievers that they had crucified Jesus, was because they were physically able to see His body being crucified, but too spiritualy blind to see that His soul (that which essentially is Jesus as opposed to merely being the vehicle for Jesus) lived on, and could not be crucified.

 

In the Qur'an, it says of martyrs (people put to death for their belief), "154. And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not." Surah 2:154). Note how once again to the spiritualy blind, seeing a dead body, it appears they are dead, but to the spiritually perceptive the soul is percieved as not having died.

 

The same applies to Jesus who was crucified (ie slain) in the way of God, He appeared crucified (or put to death), but in reality He was living, though it appeared otherwise to the disbelievers because they perceived (it) not.

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If Jesus's body is an essential part of Jesus, then what body will He have when He returns? It is quite clear the first one is gone, done, dead. My view is the same Spirit but with a completely different body, which is also non-essential.

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Unfortunately I don't have any Gawaher approved reference. Thank you for asking. Which part of the conclusion were you most curious about? The 2nd body or the non-essential nature of the first?

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I do have just a simple question to Augustine

 

Why God even needs to sacrifice his only child and have him crucified to redeem the humanity sin, while he can just simply forgive them?

 

This is what I can’t understand about the Christianity

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Perhaps I can find your refernce by google search if you would point to what it is I should be looking for?

 

Both parts makes me curious.

 

God bless,

 

I would start off with Psalms 22. The moment before Jesus gave up the Spirit, He said “Why hast thou forsaken me?” Here you can see how the prophecy of Psalms 22 was fulfilled. The body was essential for the fulfillment of the prophecy, but not essential for the Spirit to live, continue administering to the disciples until they fully believed, and continued on through the Day of Pentecost, through the bodies of the disciples. Even though it was Paul and others who wrote the books of the New Testament, it was through the Spirit of Jesus those books were being written, thus being the Word of God, not the word of the disciples.

 

Now for the second body. When Jesus was raised to Heaven, He didn't have a physical body. Think about how He fulfilled the prophecies of His first coming. The prophecies would be that He would descend from Heaven and Jesus even asked the Pharisees if they doubt this actually happened. Jesus told them He did descend from Heaven. How can this be if He was born from the womb of Mary? The body definitely came from Earth. Notice the Gospels really do not start describing the ministry of Jesus until after He was baptized by John the Baptist. At that point, a dove descended from Heaven. This dove was the Holy Spirit and Jesus's ministry began by his journey through the desert. This also explains why the details of Jesus's youth are mostly missing. Jesus was exceptional as a youth and had some innate knowledge, but He was not fully the Manifestation of God until He received the Holy Spirit. When Jesus's Spirit departed His body on the cross, the Spirit no longer needed that physical body. That body is done, gone, decomposed somewhere, and back to the Earth.

 

With the accounts of the last supper, we can see Jesus has the disciples eat His body, even though it was not literally His body. The bread, the body of Christ, is purely symbolic, perhaps a bounty of Spirit. They received this bounty days after the crucifixion. Maybe the body is something else, but definitely Jesus taught the body is not always literal. For a better explanation, google “THE SYMBOLISM OF THE BREAD AND THE WINE”

 

In Matthew 24, when Jesus describes how He will come back a 2nd time, and also in Revelations, He comes from Heaven again. He will come in the clouds, although as you know clouds o##cure light. This means it will not be so obvious, only to those who truly believe in God and His Signs. Maybe like the same clouds the Jews had when they disbelieved Him.

 

Perhaps the google term “Talk at Home of Mr. and Mrs. Edward B. Kinney” could also help. Both searches should result in the same author.

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I never quite understood how Muslims get around this statement. I’ve made this point before to Muslims but it always seems to be brushed aside.

 

How do Muslims deal with this problem?

 

As Muslims, we do not see that God's mercy and justice are at odds. God is not unjust for forgiving somebody without an infinite sacrifice. As God says in the Qur'an, He forgives whomever He wills and punishes whomever He wills. This concept of an infinite sacrifice being needed is not mentioned as requirement in the Qur'an. This concept that you presented is at odds with the Bible itself, well, at least the Hebrew Bible:

 

Isaiah 43:25-26

"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Review the past for me, let us argue the matter together; state the case for your innocence.

 

Isaiah 1:18

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

 

Psalm 103:12

as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

 

Numbers 14:19-21

In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now." The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth,

 

Micah 7:18-19

Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.

 

These are before the supposed infite sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).

 

In short, we, Muslims, go by what God has informed us of Himself. We don't speak of God without knowledge. God has said in the Qur'an that He will forgive and have mercy on the believers and enter them Paradise. There is no mention of an infinite sacrifice. There is no mention of God needing to sacrifice His son or Himself in order to forgive us.

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