Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Sign in to follow this  
EasternQibla

Real Islaam

Recommended Posts

I have enjoyed and loved the topic on "Prophet Muhammad And Love., Lets learn the qualities of Muhammad":

 

Please post things that show the love of Prophet Muhammad so that we can all learn to become more like him and so that we can become closer to Allah.

 

It is this type of thing that help me see Muhammad (God rest his soul) as inspired of God.

 

However, it appears as though this imitation of his love is not central to Islaam at all. Some examples (the first one is one I found ages ago):

 

For example, a lot of Christians claim that God is all-loving and all-merciful, yet sends people to Hell for an eternity. However, Islam doesn't claim that God is all-loving nor all-merciful, so there is no contradiction there

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=735944&view=findpost&p=1238558"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...t&p=1238558[/url]

"Islam doesn't claim that God is all-loving nor all-merciful" – is this the real Islaam? An hadith states that Adam wept on seeing people go to hell: Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345, "Those on his (Adam's) right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps". Why do Muslims so easily come out with things like Allah is not all-loving? Is Adam more loving than Allaah?

 

 

This is like when Allaah gives parents a blessed child and they experience goodness because of him, whilst He gives others a mean child and they experience bad things because of him. This applies to what may Allaah may bestow on His slave of houses, wives and horses. Allaah is the Creator of good and evil, good luck and bad luck.

"Allaah is the Creator of good and evil, good luck and bad luck ": Allaah is not the Creator of evil. He permits bad things to happen to test us (or even to help us, a little bad to help us overcome a larger bad), but he is against all evil and suffering. Or does Allaah in Islaam desire the suffering of people in hell for eternity because they have refused to obey him?

 

 

That is not an insult(I wouldn't care if it was either). He said he planned to leave and all I did was give my preference for him to leave sooner. He has been on this forum for a while and he has been 'discussing' as have the rest of us. But if he wants to label us as extremists and religious nutters and he hopes that our religion will die then, personally, for me he is not welcome here. I don't speak for this forum just for myself. Everyone in the world has disagreements and different mindsets and beliefs. We are happy to discuss, talk, argue, and all else that goes on on forums and we love to give dawah but if you are going to slap us we will slap you back. Our role is not to please you and tell you what you want to hear.

 

We try our best to portray 'real Islam'. Just because you don't like it does not make it 'un-real' Islam.

"if you are going to slap us we will slap you back":While I know that we all get hurt and angry, yet this statement here shows absolutely no acknowledgment that we should be loving like Muhammad (God rest his soul), trying not to give into anger.

 

 

I am confused. What is the real Islaam regarding imitating the love of Muhammad (God rest his soul), or even about Allaah's love for humanity?

 

Richard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

The topic which I started about Prophet Muhammad and Love - I did so because I feel Muslims today are straying away from an important message of Muhammad. Loving your brother in faith is only one part of Muhammads message. People have forgotten that as Muslims we are brothers and sisters of faith and Muhammad told us to love and respect one another. Muhammad is our example and we should follow this - this is Islam. The post is one aspect of his life just the way love is one attribute of Allah. Allah cannot be limited to just one attribute. Of course Allah is the Creator of evil - it may seem harsh but Allah is the Creator of all things and therefore He is the Creator of satan.

 

Narrated AbuUmamah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone loves for Allah's sake, hates for Allah's sake, gives for Allah's sake and withholds for Allah's sake, he will have perfect faith. (Sunan Abudawud Book40, Hadith4664)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The topic which I started about Prophet Muhammad and Love - I did so because I feel Muslims today are straying away from an important message of Muhammad. Loving your brother in faith is only one part of Muhammads message. People have forgotten that as Muslims we are brothers and sisters of faith and Muhammad told us to love and respect one another. Muhammad is our example and we should follow this - this is Islam. The post is one aspect of his life just the way love is one attribute of Allah. Allah cannot be limited to just one attribute. Of course Allah is the Creator of evil - it may seem harsh but Allah is the Creator of all things and therefore He is the Creator of satan.

 

Narrated AbuUmamah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone loves for Allah's sake, hates for Allah's sake, gives for Allah's sake and withholds for Allah's sake, he will have perfect faith. (Sunan Abudawud Book40, Hadith4664)

 

 

I think this is an admirable post. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the Qu'ran to understand exactly how much of it directly supports the due love and respect to 'our brothers and sisters'.

Might I say that Muhammad has not been the only human to highlight the desirablility of this state of affairs. John Lennon of recent years was a well known champion of the 'Love and Peace' generation. Not to mention the Buddha and many, many others, going back much further into history.

Naturally, as you say there are many attributes to Allah, and this is one of the things that not only makes Islam unique but is also one of the major things which attracted me too it (cynic that I am).

 

Salaam,

 

ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have enjoyed and loved the topic on "Prophet Muhammad And Love., Lets learn the qualities of Muhammad":

It is this type of thing that help me see Muhammad (God rest his soul) as inspired of God.

 

However, it appears as though this imitation of his love is not central to Islaam at all. Some examples (the first one is one I found ages ago):

"Islam doesn't claim that God is all-loving nor all-merciful" – is this the real Islaam? An hadith states that Adam wept on seeing people go to hell: Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345, "Those on his (Adam's) right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps". Why do Muslims so easily come out with things like Allah is not all-loving? Is Adam more loving than Allaah?

"Allaah is the Creator of good and evil, good luck and bad luck ": Allaah is not the Creator of evil. He permits bad things to happen to test us (or even to help us, a little bad to help us overcome a larger bad), but he is against all evil and suffering. Or does Allaah in Islaam desire the suffering of people in hell for eternity because they have refused to obey him?

"if you are going to slap us we will slap you back":While I know that we all get hurt and angry, yet this statement here shows absolutely no acknowledgment that we should be loving like Muhammad (God rest his soul), trying not to give into anger.

I am confused. What is the real Islaam regarding imitating the love of Muhammad (God rest his soul), or even about Allaah's love for humanity?

 

Richard

salam

1- Allah is named

Arrahman Arraheem

He is Alwadood

 

2- Allah is the creator of everything, but out of respect and love we shouldn't attribute bad things to him eg: Ayoob story he said: The satan touched me with harm / I was toched by harm in another ayah - or as the ayah says-he didn't said :you touched me by harm !

 

3- Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported:

Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) never hit anything with his hand neither a servant nor a woman but of course, he did fight in the Cause of Allah. He never took revenge upon anyone for the wrong done to him, but of course, he exacted retribution for the sake of Allah in case the Injunctions of Allah about unlawful acts were violated.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_sunnah(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/riyadussaliheen/1/644"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_sunnah(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/riyadussaliheen/1/644[/url]

 

And Allah knows the best

Edited by Absolute truth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People have forgotten that as Muslims we are brothers and sisters of faith and Muhammad told us to love and respect one another. Muhammad is our example and we should follow this - this is Islam.

 

Dear 'Lost_In_Paradise',

 

Thank you for the topic Prophet Muhammad and Love. It was, and is, very heart-warming. However, I have just read this in ibn Kathir's tasfir on surah 9:29, and am crying inside:

 

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

 

Allah said,

(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,

(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

 

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.)

 

This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.

We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices ﴿with prayer﴾ at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. ….'

When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

 

This has broken my heart. I had heard that Christians were not able to repair their churches in Turkey, but passed this over as a distortion of Islaam, but here it is right at the heart. Here is no love for your fellow human, but a desire to 'humiliate'. Is the love of Muhammad or of Allaah towards all, or only to Muslims?

 

Please, someone help my heart. Or do you find nothing wrong in the authentic hadith quoted and Umar's views?

 

Richard

:cry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Islam doesn't claim that God is all-loving nor all-merciful" – is this the real Islaam? An hadith states that Adam wept on seeing people go to hell: Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345, "Those on his (Adam's) right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps". Why do Muslims so easily come out with things like Allah is not all-loving? Is Adam more loving than Allaah?

 

God does not love disbelievers whom He will put in Hell for eternity. Adam (pbuh) is weeping because he is looking at his offspring. He is weeping out of parental love. However, God doesn't have love for the disbelievers.

 

"Allaah is the Creator of good and evil, good luck and bad luck ": Allaah is not the Creator of evil. He permits bad things to happen to test us (or even to help us, a little bad to help us overcome a larger bad), but he is against all evil and suffering. Or does Allaah in Islaam desire the suffering of people in hell for eternity because they have refused to obey him?

 

God creates absolutely everything, that includes evil. Evil does not create itself nor is it created by another "author" like Satan. God is against sins definately. God will put the disbelievers in Hell for eternity because they refused to obey Him, yes. I don't know what mean by "desire" per se because often people have their own connotations.

 

I am confused. What is the real Islaam regarding imitating the love of Muhammad (God rest his soul), or even about Allaah's love for humanity?

 

Hard to say without giving a context because it is context-based.

 

This has broken my heart. I had heard that Christians were not able to repair their churches in Turkey, but passed this over as a distortion of Islaam, but here it is right at the heart. Here is no love for your fellow human, but a desire to 'humiliate'. Is the love of Muhammad or of Allaah towards all, or only to Muslims?

 

God loves only believers, yes. Do some Torah/Old Testament passages also break your heart?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eastern, in the sight of Allah disbelievers and believers are not equal - it seems like you need to deal with that. Why should someone who devoted their whole life to Allah, prayed their prayers, did good deeds etc be equal to one who cursed Allah, who rejected Him.

 

If we truly did not care then we would leave them alone to disbelieve and never call them to Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Prophet (SAWS) said

 

"Shall I tell you who is kept away from Hell and from whom Hell is kept away?" He then said "From everyone who is gentle and kind, approachable and of easy disposition"

 

[Tirmidhi, 1315]

 

If you truly desire to imitate the Prophet in this way then you would never say to someone "Move, I want to sit here!", especially not to an elderly person or pregnant woman.

 

But the religion of Umar states Christians should "move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them" (quoted above).

 

There are numerous issues which have been raised in this topic, but perhaps I need to understand this aspect of Islaam better.

 

I realise that running a country implies laws which imply punishments (I do not want to go to prison, but that does not mean I want to abolish the institution of prison), but it seems as though Islaam has no concept that we should be living beyond such laws: "And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them." (Bible, Luke 6:31-32) If you desire to be authentically "gentle and kind" then you would not tell someone to move from where they are sitting, and would greet all people equally: I will say 'Peace' to you first even if you refuse to say 'Peace' to me first …

 

Richard

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are numerous issues which have been raised in this topic, but perhaps I need to understand this aspect of Islaam better.

 

If you want to understand this aspect of Islam better, then I think the best way for you to do it, as a Christian, is to review the commandments in the Torah concerning conquered nations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God does not love disbelievers whom He will put in Hell for eternity. Adam (pbuh) is weeping because he is looking at his offspring. He is weeping out of parental love. However, God doesn't have love for the disbelievers.

If Adam loves all humans because of parental love (especially when the ability to procreate is not of himself but from Allah who created him), then how much more does Allah have love towards all he created! Did Allah the Merciful the Compassionate create someone more compassionate than himself?

 

God loves only believers, yes. Do some Torah/Old Testament passages also break your heart?

If you want to understand this aspect of Islam better, then I think the best way for you to do it, as a Christian, is to review the commandments in the Torah concerning conquered nations.

 

One verse from the Quran puts these comments into their proper perspective:

57: 27. …We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. …

 

I am following Jesus perfectly in seeking to be compassionate and merciful, imitating the Great One, Allah Himself, the Compassionate and Merciful. This is greater than the rulings of the Torah which was given to those who had hardened hearts. It is clear that Muhammad was sent by Allah to the pagan Arabs in imitation of the Old Testament prophets, because the Arabs too were descendants of Abraham with "hardness of heart" (Matthew 19:8) like the israelites.

 

Yet the love of Allah for his creation is (and always was) greater than this 'Old Testament' type, which rulings were abrogated in Jesus. We do not deny eternal punishment, nor justice in this life with laws and punishments, but know that within ourselves adhering to such outward laws does not raise us to knowledge of Allah.

 

We seek to have the compassion, mercy, and love of Allah within us, which means that such love manifests itself for all humans. We also consider our own sins before condemning others in our hearts.

 

Eastern, in the sight of Allah disbelievers and believers are not equal - it seems like you need to deal with that. Why should someone who devoted their whole life to Allah, prayed their prayers, did good deeds etc be equal to one who cursed Allah, who rejected Him.

If we truly did not care then we would leave them alone to disbelieve and never call them to Islam.

 

Say a man has two children, one good and the other bad. They are both his sons, loved by him and equal in his sight. But he relates differently to each one, for their own good. His punishments to the bad son are actually a sign of love. Indeed, instead of punishing his bad son, he might even show him more gentleness and love to win his heart over, which is indeed the greater path.

 

Richard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Say a man has two children, one good and the other bad. They are both his sons, loved by him and equal in his sight. But he relates differently to each one, for their own good. His punishments to the bad son are actually a sign of love. Indeed, instead of punishing his bad son, he might even show him more gentleness and love to win his heart over, which is indeed the greater path.

 

Richard

I think this is the biggest mistake humans make. Comparing God to a human.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Adam loves all humans because of parental love (especially when the ability to procreate is not of himself but from Allah who created him), then how much more does Allah have love towards all he created! Did Allah the Merciful the Compassionate create someone more compassionate than himself?

 

And the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones.'' Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins'' Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all). (5:18)

 

(3:31). Say (O Muhammad to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah, then follow me (i.e. Muhammad), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'') (32. Say: "Obey Allah and the Messenger.'' But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.)

 

The fact is God does not love everybody, namely the disbelievers. It is explicitly stated so in the Qur'an. You are just trying to twist the Qur'an and Islamic teachings to try to suit them with your beliefs.

 

I am following Jesus perfectly in seeking to be compassionate and merciful, imitating the Great One, Allah Himself, the Compassionate and Merciful. This is greater than the rulings of the Torah which was given to those who had hardened hearts. It is clear that Muhammad was sent by Allah to the pagan Arabs in imitation of the Old Testament prophets, because the Arabs too were descendants of Abraham with "hardness of heart" (Matthew 19:8) like the israelites.

 

Yet the love of Allah for his creation is (and always was) greater than this 'Old Testament' type, which rulings were abrogated in Jesus. We do not deny eternal punishment, nor justice in this life with laws and punishments, but know that within ourselves adhering to such outward laws does not raise us to knowledge of Allah.

 

We seek to have the compassion, mercy, and love of Allah within us, which means that such love manifests itself for all humans. We also consider our own sins before condemning others in our hearts.

 

Yet the Law given to Muhammad (pbuh) is the Law that is to be followed now:

 

Say: "O People of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Tawrah, the Injil, and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an).'' Verily, the revelation that has come to you from your Lord makes many of them increase in rebellion and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve. (5:68)

 

(3:81) . And (remember) when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree (to it) and will you take up Isri'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (82. Then whoever turns away after this, they are the rebellious.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is the biggest mistake humans make. Comparing God to a human.

 

As ibn Kathir commented:

 

(And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm faith) Who is more just in decision than Allah for those who comprehend Allah's Law, believe in Him, who are certain that Allah is the best among those who give decisions and that He is more merciful with His creation than the mother with her own child Allah has perfect knowledge of everything, is able to do all things, and He is just in all matters.

 

Sura 5, “Praising the Qur'an; the Command to Refer to the Qur'an for Judgment”

 

The fact is God does not love everybody, namely the disbelievers. It is explicitly stated so in the Qur'an. You are just trying to twist the Qur'an and Islamic teachings to try to suit them with your beliefs.

You can find similar verses in the Bible about God favouring only the believers. However, the question is what is the highest understanding of Allah? I have read that Muhammad was sent to the pagan Arabs who had very little knowledge of the truth. They needed drastic waking up, hence the stark contrast of heaven and hell with Allah acting accordingly. Yet Adam shows a higher level of knowledge by his crying for those going to hell. We need to learn from him. Do you feel sorry for those in hell for eternity? Adam does, and so too should we: to ignore this is to sink down to the level of newly converted pagans.

 

I am not twisting the Quran at all, but interpreting it from Adam’s level, from knowledge of the Merciful and Compassionate. Regarding Adam, I will ask again: “Did Allah the Merciful the Compassionate create someone more compassionate than himself?”

 

Yet the Law given to Muhammad (pbuh) is the Law that is to be followed now:

 

57: 27. …We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy.

Compassion and mercy are not of laws, but built into us. Laws exist for good, but can be used for bad. But mercy and compassion will always do what is good, hence they are higher than laws.

 

 

Richard

 

PS. Given that there was a terrorist learning from this forum, I would suggest that universal compassion independent of religion or morals should be the hallmark of ‘moderate’: punishments must exist, but not with a condemning heart; it is the attitude which matters.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not twisting the Quran at all, but interpreting it from Adam’s level, from knowledge of the Merciful and Compassionate. Regarding Adam, I will ask again: “Did Allah the Merciful the Compassionate create someone more compassionate than himself?”

 

There are people who say that God is evil for creating Hell and they believe that nothing merits eternal Hell. Are these people more merciful than God? There are people who say that if they were/had God's powers, they would cure all the word of evil. Are these people more merciful than God? The answer is no and neither is Adam (pbuh). However, this still does not mean that feels sorry the disbelievers in Hell, nor does He love them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the Ibn Kathir quote you gave, you are still taking things out of context - you are focusing on one attribute of Allah and disregarding the fact that He makes it clear in the quran that while he is Most Merciful He is capable of punishing those who disbelieve. And the last part of that quote says Allah is Just - indeed He is - He will judge who deserves to go to Paradise and who will go to Hell. You have to take Allah as a whole not as some attribute that you in particular like and think that Allah is just this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×