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As far as the bible is concerned, try this:

http://www.answering...s/11struct.html

 

i am 100% sure that you have not even read that site , you just copied it here just to provide something, that is total rubbish. i watched that site and i could not find 1 numerical miracle.

 

if you dont believe me try to read that site before you copy it to me here.

 

i have not seen yet nummerical miracles in any book beside quran.

 

next time you copy something read it first and see what it says.

 

 

I haven't seen you respond to my claim that the word Imam appears 12 times in the Quran (though I may have glossed over it due to your unnecessarily lengthy posts). What do you think this proves?

 

first time i hear that, where can i verify that? and what would that mean if it was really so?

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show me clearly where in bible can we find nummerical miracle,like we find in quran.

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i am 100% sure that you have not even read that site , you just copied it here just to provide something, that is total rubbish. i watched that site and i could not find 1 numerical miracle.

Of course not in its entirety because it does not concern me. But enough to find the claims.

The sum of the numeric values of the 26 authors named as Biblical writers

which was shown above as being 7,931 is a multiple of seven (Feature 9) as

well as a multiple of eleven. Of this number, the 21 (3 x 7) writers of the

Old Testament have 3,808 or 544-7's and the New Testament writers have

(Feature 10) 4,123 or 589-7's. Of the 3,808 belonging to the Old Testament,

2,933 or 419-7's belong to the writers of the Law and the Prophets, from

Moses to Malachi, and 1,190 or 170-7's belong to the writers of the

hagiographa, from David to Nehemiah (Feature 11). Seven of the 21 Old

Testament writers (3-7's) are expressly named in the New Testament; These

are Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Hosea and Joel. Their numeric

value is 1,554 or 222-7's (Features 12 & 13). The numeric value of Moses,

who heads the list, and John who closes it is 345 and 1069 which equal 1414

or 202-7's (Feature 14).

 

YOU obviously did not read it though. The numerical miracle claims come later in the article.

 

first time i hear that, where can i verify that? and what would that mean if it was really so?

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234988059-numerical-miracles-of-the-12-imams/

You tell me - what would it mean if these were true (which they are)?

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The sum of the numeric values of the 26 authors named as Biblical writers

which was shown above as being 7,931 is a multiple of seven (Feature 9) as

well as a multiple of eleven. Of this number, the 21 (3 x 7) writers of the

Old Testament have 3,808 or 544-7's and the New Testament writers have

(Feature 10) 4,123 or 589-7's. Of the 3,808 belonging to the Old Testament,

2,933 or 419-7's belong to the writers of the Law and the Prophets, from

Moses to Malachi, and 1,190 or 170-7's belong to the writers of the

hagiographa, from David to Nehemiah (Feature 11). Seven of the 21 Old

Testament writers (3-7's) are expressly named in the New Testament; These

are Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Hosea and Joel. Their numeric

value is 1,554 or 222-7's (Features 12 & 13). The numeric value of Moses,

who heads the list, and John who closes it is 345 and 1069 which equal 1414

or 202-7's (Feature 14).

 

 

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat :D i cant understand nothing, oh my God what is this, are you joking with me, explain in simple language how this is miracle, i think i destroyed million braincells to understand that, and still i dont understand it.

 

that is absolutly no miracle in that, nobody can understand that rubbish

 

but in quranic miracle it is very easy to understand.

 

 

http://www.shiachat....f-the-12-imams/

You tell me - what would it mean if these were true (which they are)?

 

those are Shia, not muslims, they are well known of telling lies, they have notginh to do with Islam, they dont follow prophet Muhammed.

 

if that is true show us in what verses word imam are mentioned.

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whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat :D i cant understand nothing, oh my God what is this, are you joking with me, explain in simple language how this is miracle, i think i destroyed million braincells to understand that, and still i dont understand it.

 

that is absolutly no miracle in that, nobody can understand that rubbish

 

but in quranic miracle it is very easy to understand.

Oh, so a new criteria now?

 

 

 

those are Shia, not muslims, they are well known of telling lies, they have notginh to do with Islam, they dont follow prophet Muhammed.

 

if that is true show us in what verses word imam are mentioned.

Sure. Read the rest of the posts on the link I sent you.

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Oh, so a new criteria now?

 

 

 

 

Sure. Read the rest of the posts on the link I sent you.

 

explain to us that, i am 100% sure that you dont know what that is , you say here in bible we can find the same, but that is not clear at all.

 

and that about 12 imams, it is not said imam, it is said Khalifa, is Islamic ruler/president

 

 

from wikipedia

 

What is caliph?

 

The Caliph (Arabic: خليفة‎ ḫalīfah/khalīfah) is the head of state in a Caliphate, and the title for the ruler of the Islamic Ummah, an Islamic community ruled by the Shari'ah. It is a transcribed version of the Arabic word 11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png خليفة Khalīfah

 

Dont post stuff wich you dont know anything about.

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explain to us in simple language how that stuff in bible can be nummerical miracle, i cant see it, help us understand it.

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Yes, the word imam appears 12 times as does the word Khalifa. Do you even care to read the thread I sent you?

FYI - I know what a Khalifa is. Care to actually respond to the point being made, or will you continue to show off your ignorance?

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explain to us in simple language how that stuff in bible can be nummerical miracle, i cant see it, help us understand it.

Firstly, you must understand that I don't see either the bible or the Quran as containing numerical *miracles* - just expected coincidences that result from the large body of text. These biblical coincidences are roughly the equivalent of the "19" miracles in the Quran.

Let's consider the simplest from the website. It focuses on the prime number 11:

66 books is 6*11.

22 anonymous books is 2*11.

44 non-anonymous books is 4*11.

Of these 44 non-anomyous books, 22 belong to authors that wrote more than 1 book. 22 = 2*11. The remaining 22 belong to authors that only wrote one book. This is again 22 = 2*11.

What is so difficult to understand about these coincidences? Why is this any different from the number 19 miracles in the Quran?

 

You should come to conclude that these numerical coincidences are just that - and they are expected for texts large enough. They do not add credibility to any of the claims. They do not make the claims any more or less true. They are completely irrelevant.

Edited by atheism101

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Yes, the word imam appears 12 times as does the word Khalifa. Do you even care to read the thread I sent you?

FYI - I know what a Khalifa is. Care to actually respond to the point being made, or will you continue to show off your ignorance?

 

man, i can read orginal arabic quran, no imam is not mentioned 12 times, look here , this is what they say:

 

 

Here are the references bro:

 

 

1. Surah Baqarah, verse 30

2. Surah Saad, verse 26

3. Surah Al-An'aam, verse 165

4. Surah Younus, verse 14

5. Surah Younus, verse 73

6. Surah Faatir, verse 39

7. Surah Al-A'raaf, verse 69

8. Surah Al-A'raaf, verse 74

9. Surah An-Naml, verse 62

10. Surah An-Noor, verse 55

11. Surah Hood, verse 57

12. Surah Al-A'raaf verse 129

 

 

lets take this one

1. Surah Baqarah, verse 30

 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَِ

Waith qala rabbuka lilmalaikati innee jaAAilun fee alardi khaleefatan qaloo atajAAalu feeha man yufsidu feeha wayasfiku alddimaa wanahnu nusabbihu bihamdika wanuqaddisu laka qala innee

 

Do you se word imam here or khalieefa?

 

DONT TEACH ME MY OWN RELIGIOUS BOOK IF YOU DONT KNOW IT.

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man, i can read orginal arabic quran, no imam is not mentioned 12 times, look here , this is what they say:

 

 

Here are the references bro:

 

 

1. Surah Baqarah, verse 30

2. Surah Saad, verse 26

3. Surah Al-An'aam, verse 165

4. Surah Younus, verse 14

5. Surah Younus, verse 73

6. Surah Faatir, verse 39

7. Surah Al-A'raaf, verse 69

8. Surah Al-A'raaf, verse 74

9. Surah An-Naml, verse 62

10. Surah An-Noor, verse 55

11. Surah Hood, verse 57

12. Surah Al-A'raaf verse 129

 

 

lets take this one

1. Surah Baqarah, verse 30

 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَِ

Waith qala rabbuka lilmalaikati innee jaAAilun fee alardi khaleefatan qaloo atajAAalu feeha man yufsidu feeha wayasfiku alddimaa wanahnu nusabbihu bihamdika wanuqaddisu laka qala innee

 

Do you se word imam here or khalieefa?

 

DONT TEACH ME MY OWN RELIGIOUS BOOK IF YOU DONT KNOW IT.

 

If you actually read what those references are for, those are the references for the 12 uses of the word khaleefa. THESE are the references of the 12 uses of the word imam (singular and plural):

1. Surah Al Baqarah, verse124

2. Surah At-Tawbah, verse 12

3. Surah Al Hood, verse 17

4. Surah Al Hijr, verse 79

5. Surah Al Isra, verse 71

6. Surah Al Ambiya, verse 72-73

7. Surah Al Furqan, verse 74

8. Surah Al Qasas, verse 5

9. Surah Al Qasas, verse 41

10. Surah As-Sajdah, verse 24

11. Surah Al Yaseen, verse 12

12. Surah Al-Ahqaf verse 12

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Firstly, you must understand that I don't see either the bible or the Quran as containing numerical *miracles* - just expected coincidences that result from the large body of text. These biblical coincidences are roughly the equivalent of the "19" miracles in the Quran.

Let's consider the simplest from the website. It focuses on the prime number 11:

66 books is 6*11.

22 anonymous books is 2*11.

44 non-anonymous books is 4*11.

Of these 44 non-anomyous books, 22 belong to authors that wrote more than 1 book. 22 = 2*11. The remaining 22 belong to authors that only wrote one book. This is again 22 = 2*11.

What is so difficult to understand about these coincidences? Why is this any different from the number 19 miracles in the Quran?

 

You should come to conclude that these numerical coincidences are just that - and they are expected for texts large enough. They do not add credibility to any of the claims. They do not make the claims any more or less true. They are completely irrelevant.

 

WHY DO YOU PUT SUCH NONSENSE?

 

i never put the "19" miracles in the Quran, beacuse i dont see it as miracle. so why do you change the subject

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WHY DO YOU PUT SUCH NONSENSE?

 

i never put the "19" miracles in the Quran, beacuse i dont see it as miracle. so why do you change the subject

The 19 miracle is very often upheld as one of the best miracles. It was simply a demonstration that similar results can be achieved in any large text.

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The 19 miracle is very often upheld as one of the best miracles. It was simply a demonstration that similar results can be achieved in any large text.

 

no it is not, i dont promote that 19 miracle in quran. you are changing the subject

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no it is not, i dont promote that 19 miracle in quran. you are changing the subject

I didn't say you were promoting it. It is, however, like I said previously, often displayed as the best of these numerical miracles.

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I didn't say you were promoting it. It is, however, like I said previously, often displayed as the best of these numerical miracles.

 

for me miracle 19 is not special miracle, i dont use it in my claim, that is why you shall not talk about stuff wich we dont talk about

 

but this stuff is wich i talk about , nummerical miracles in quran

 

 

evidence how chapter numbers , verse numbers cooperate with eachother, it is like programmed book.

 

EXEMPLE 1

 

In this example we see clearly nummerical miracle, between odd and even numbers and how the correspond to sum of chapters and verses

25jjnmo.jpg

15gb8e8.jpg

24ys6rr.jpg

 

Here, we have repetetive nummerical values from the table above

for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107, we summerize all repetitive nummerical values

1z1wpyp.jpg

 

Here, we have non-repetitive nummerical values, and we summerize them also

259j3pj.jpg

 

We can clearly see golden ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values from this table

166k5z6.jpg

 

you can test here in this excel file

http://www.answering-christianity.co...en_miracle.xls

 

 

Evidence that quran is symmetric book, if someone would change only 1 verse, add or remove only 1 verse from quran, symmetric would not work anymore, you can confirm it with your own eyes and hands.

 

EXEMPLE 2

 

(Sequence number of Chapter)-(Verses) =

 

4 combination:

 

odd-odd

odd-even

even-even

even odd

 

example first chapter Fatiha has sequence number 1 and 7 verses, then it is in ODD-ODD section

 

Look how Quran is constructed symmetrically, amazing

efnl0p.jpg

 

Homogenus are ODD-ODD, EVEN-EVEN

 

Non-homogenus are odd-even, even-odd

 

It is also constructed simmetrically

9q90mc.jpg

 

Now we divide Quran in half, first part of quran 57 chapters, and second part quran 57 chapters

 

even this is also symetrical between homogenus and non-homogenus

21ajl7r.jpg

 

This is evidence that quran is simmetrical book also, for more detailed explanation of this you can read here

 

http://www.simetrikkitap.com/subject1.pdf

 

ANYONE WHO DARES TO DEBUNK THIS ????

 

this is testable evidence that quran is not ordinary book, this is evidence also that it comes from God, when you see under what conditions uran came down on earth during these 23 years, you know that this is impossible for people in 6th century to do something like this

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do yo usee miracle 19 here? i dont think so, beacuse we are not talking about miracle 19, but real testable miracles from Quran.

 

or this one

 

i have confirmed myself that Mekka is indeed in golden ratio between south pole and noreth pole

 

evidence from google earth

 

qxsbgo.jpg

 

dh651y.jpg

 

Mekka golden ratio in the world

 

12348,32 / 7631,68 = 1,618.......

 

same as position od word mekka in Quranic verse

2a9paon.jpg

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JUST LOOK HOW TEXT COOPERATE WITH NUMBERS IN QURAN

 

6odjeu.jpg

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Why are these numerical miracles any different from, say, the 19 miracle? Also, I already responded to the golden ratio claim in particular earlier in this thread.

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Why are these numerical miracles any different from, say, the 19 miracle? Also, I already responded to the golden ratio claim in particular earlier in this thread.

 

beacuse so called miracle 19 is weak miracle i think, that is my opinion after studing miracles in quran, those wich i present to you is far more superior miracles than "the 19 miracle"

 

you can see here confirmation of those miracles wich i presented to you here

 

 

Also, I already responded to the golden ratio claim in particular earlier in this thread

 

where?

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beacuse so called miracle 19 is weak miracle i think, that is my opinion after studing miracles in quran, those wich i present to you is far more superior miracles than "the 19 miracle"

 

you can see here confirmation of those miracles wich i presented to you here

I am not interested in proving whether or not these numerical coincidences exist or not. I am willing to grant them to you. All I am asking is why, conceptually, these are any different from the 19 miracle.

 

 

where?

Right here:

Yes, I have seen the golden ratio claim before, and upon checking it, found what many others found - it is pretty far from the exact golden ratio points. The point chosen returns a value close to the golden ratio points, but this is true for very large regions of the earth. If you want precise golden ratio points, a golden ratio point turns out to be Rio de Janeiro - what does this prove?

Did you even care to read my responses?

Also - you dropped the topic of imam appearing 12 times in the Quran.

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I am not interested in proving whether or not these numerical coincidences exist or not. I am willing to grant them to you. All I am asking is why, conceptually, these are any different from the 19 miracle.

 

 

 

Right here:

 

Did you even care to read my responses?

Also - you dropped the topic of imam appearing 12 times in the Quran.

 

 

All I am asking is why, conceptually, these are any different from the 19 miracle.

 

beacuse it is clearer miracle than the 19 miracle

 

 

for me this is to weak when beacuse it is too much multiply and division 19 x 15 or 114/6= 19

 

i think this is weak compared to real nummerical miracles like this

 

this for example

6odjeu.jpg

 

here it is clear numerical miracle, when you can see connection between text and number

 

 

 

Yes, I have seen the golden ratio claim before, and upon checking it, found what many others found - it is pretty far from the exact golden ratio points. The point chosen returns a value close to the golden ratio points, but this is true for very large regions of the earth. If you want precise golden ratio points, a golden ratio point turns out to be Rio de Janeiro - what does this prove?

 

not true, this goled ratio has been confirmed even by a documentary

 

 

and i have also confirm it in google earth

 

 

Also - you dropped the topic of imam appearing 12 times in the Quran.

 

we muslims dont take our belief from nummerical miracle in quran, 12 imams is shia sect belief, wich Muhammed did not say anything about, and our relgion Islam is based on what quran and prophet Muhammed said, not that we shall take our belief from nummerical miracles.

 

Shia are not muslims, just you know that, they dont follow quran and prophet Muhammed.

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beacuse it is clearer miracle than the 19 miracle

 

 

for me this is to weak when beacuse it is too much multiply and division 19 x 15 or 114/6= 19

 

i think this is weak compared to real nummerical miracles like this

 

What is the systematic difference? If you can so easily discredit the Quran's 19 miracle and the bible's 11 miracle or 7 miracle etc, I can just as easily discredit your numerical claims. The same reasoning that would lead you to discredit the 19 miracle can be applied to any numerical miracle. In a text large enough, you are bound to have numerical coincidences. Do you just get scared when you see large numbers?

 

not true, this goled ratio has been confirmed even by a documentary

I don't care what authorities you cite. If you actually read what I am saying, you will understand that I am not disputing that the ratio rounds to the same ratio as the golden ratio. Rather, I am saying that if you were to find points that were more precise, somewhere like Rio de Janero is more precisely the golden ratio point. If you don't care about being precise past 2 decimal places, then there are very large regions that would fall into these "golden ratio" regions. I'm not going to respond to the same point over and over again.

 

 

 

we muslims dont take our belief from nummerical miracle in quran, 12 imams is shia sect belief, wich Muhammed did not say anything about, and our relgion Islam is based on what quran and prophet Muhammed said, not that we shall take our belief from nummerical miracles.

 

Shia are not muslims, just you know that, they dont follow quran and prophet Muhammed.

This sounds like an admission that numerical "miracles" are irrelevant to intellectual beliefs. Why do you think I should take my belief from numerical coincidences if you refuse to do the same?

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What is the systematic difference? If you can so easily discredit the Quran's 19 miracle and the bible's 11 miracle or 7 miracle etc, I can just as easily discredit your numerical claims. The same reasoning that would lead you to discredit the 19 miracle can be applied to any numerical miracle. In a text large enough, you are bound to have numerical coincidences. Do you just get scared when you see large numbers?

 

 

I don't care what authorities you cite. If you actually read what I am saying, you will understand that I am not disputing that the ratio rounds to the same ratio as the golden ratio. Rather, I am saying that if you were to find points that were more precise, somewhere like Rio de Janero is more precisely the golden ratio point. If you don't care about being precise past 2 decimal places, then there are very large regions that would fall into these "golden ratio" regions. I'm not going to respond to the same point over and over again.

 

 

 

 

This sounds like an admission that numerical "miracles" are irrelevant to intellectual beliefs. Why do you think I should take my belief from numerical coincidences if you refuse to do the same?

 

 

 

What is the systematic difference? If you can so easily discredit the Quran's 19 miracle and the bible's 11 miracle or 7 miracle etc, I can just as easily discredit your numerical claims. The same reasoning that would lead you to discredit the 19 miracle can be applied to any numerical miracle. In a text large enough, you are bound to have numerical coincidences. Do you just get scared when you see large numbers?

 

for example

 

they say, in quran there is 114 chapters, if you divide them with 6 you get 19, so 19 is special

 

bism_scan_e_290w.gif

every chapter beging with this arabic phrase, "In the name of God, most Gracious, most Compassionate".

 

it has also 19 letters

 

so they continue like this finding connections with 19. do you see this a big miracle??? for me it is weak

 

but in this case

 

 

this for example

6odjeu.jpg

for me such nummerical miracles are greater than miracle 19.

 

 

Rather, I am saying that if you were to find points that were more precise, somewhere like Rio de Janero is more precisely the golden ratio point. If you don't care about being precise past 2 decimal places, then there are very large regions that would fall into these "golden ratio" regions. I'm not going to respond to the same point over and over again.

 

if you watched the video, you would know what i am talking about, so watch it man...

 

 

This sounds like an admission that numerical "miracles" are irrelevant to intellectual beliefs. Why do you think I should take my belief from numerical coincidences if you refuse to do the same?

 

nummerical miracle is not the base for construction of our belief system, quran and hadith are base for our belief system. not numerical miracles, nummerical mriacles are just evidence of divine coinstruction of Quran.

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for me such nummerical miracles are greater than miracle 19.

Why is it conceptually any different? I don't know how else I can phrase this question. How can you discredit the 19 miracle but not discredit this using the same reasoning?

 

 

if you watched the video, you would know what i am talking about, so watch it man...

Like I said, I am not going to respond to the same point over and over again. There are large regions that give the ratio accurate to two decimal places.

 

 

nummerical miracle is not the base for construction of our belief system, quran and hadith are base for our belief system. not numerical miracles, nummerical mriacles are just evidence of divine coinstruction of Quran.

I don't think you understood my response to the 12 imams claim. You denied it because you said you would not base your beliefs off of numerical miracles. Why should I? What are the numerical coincidences proving? If they were put there by divine choice, why does the word imam in singular and plural come exactly 12 times in the Quran? You cannot say that sometimes the miracles mean something but when they disagree with your view they don't mean anything.

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