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The Problem Of Evil

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Being harsh is a good thing. It invokes stronger responses.

Spaghetti is evidence of the FSM. That spaghetti even exists points to the certainty of existence of the FSM. Whether or not you think that's proof is different, but he definitely exists! So what if the "evidence" for his existence is subjective and not accessible to everyone?

 

I care what people think because I care about human society. I look forward to a society where everyone thinks freely, where we have less conflicts, less killing, and a more rational approach to solving problems. Religion suspends rational thinking in favor of good feelings and faith. The truth of it aside, this is harmful.

 

I posed this question: Would you kill yourself if you found out today that God does not exist? No, I don't think you would.

There is no OBJECTIVE purpose. This means that from the point of view of the universe (if the universe had a point of view), human existence is meaningless. Whether we exist or not does not affect anything in the long run. However, this does not negate a SUBJECTIVE purpose. We as humans experience feelings, emotions, interactions with others, etc. that give our life meaning. At best you could argue that there is no objective purpose, but that does not affect the fact that each individual can give his or her own life a purpose.

 

I pity you if you think your only purpose is to be a slave. I pity you if you think you would kill yourself if you found out God does not exist. I pity you if you don't think family and friends make life worth living. So yes, I

pity you.

"yet you believe you have no real purpose" - Okay, so maybe I need a third person's opinion here. Can anyone point to something in the previous post which has me saying that I have no real purpose? Even in this post, I simply said that human existence has no objective purpose, but if we are allowed to take things from the point of view of the universe, then even computers and pencils do not have purposes. Things only have purpose when viewed from our subjective perspectives. I give my life purpose. I don't understand how you could possibly say I believe I have no purpose unless you are a) lying, b) not reading what i write, or c) delusional.

 

And actually, if I was given the option to enter heaven, and suppose I chose it, I would be disgusted of myself if I enjoyed it. If there were people roasting in Hell, I'd consider myself evil if I was able to enjoy Heaven for even a second. I could just ignore this, as ignorance is bliss, but that would be tremendously cruel. A God that could throw anyone into Hell for eternal roasting would not be worthy of my worship. No one, not even people like Hitler, deserves an ETERNITY in Hell. And let's not even get started on the good people that believed in the wrong God, or the good atheists.

Of course given the choice I wouldn't subscribe myself to eternal suffering, but I also would not enjoy Heaven - nor would I sincerely worship a God that punished people so tyrannically over something as little as which God, if any, that person worshiped - instead of what works that person did.

 

Hi atheism101,

 

Your post clearly shows that you have not understood who God is, what Heaven is, and what our purpose on this earth is (according to the Qur'an). My sincere advice to you would be to learn about Islaam, learn what we believe, and then make your decision. If you're not willing to read the Qur'an then I'm afraid you will never understand what our beliefs are and what faith is about.

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Your post clearly shows that you have not understood who God is, what Heaven is, and what our purpose on this earth is (according to the Qur'an). My sincere advice to you would be to learn about Islaam, learn what we believe, and then make your decision. If you're not willing to read the Qur'an then I'm afraid you will never understand what our beliefs are and what faith is about.

May I ask you a question?

 

Why do you believe that if someone who does not require a god, who does not see any evidence for the existence of any god and is perfectly content with life and the Universe would change their mind if they read the Koran?

 

What if I have read the Koran several times in different languages and the secondary and tertiary texts as well as scholarly redactions and have learnt about Islam for 20 years and I am still an atheist?

 

What if I was an Imam in a Masjid and a Koran scholar in an Islamic Culture Centre and after reading more and more texts decided that it does not make sense and I have become an atheist? Then what?

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Hi atheism101,

 

Your post clearly shows that you have not understood who God is, what Heaven is, and what our purpose on this earth is (according to the Qur'an). My sincere advice to you would be to learn about Islaam, learn what we believe, and then make your decision. If you're not willing to read the Qur'an then I'm afraid you will never understand what our beliefs are and what faith is about.

 

So what part of Ex-Muslim do you not understand?

 

May I ask you a question?

 

Why do you believe that if someone who does not require a god, who does not see any evidence for the existence of any god and is perfectly content with life and the Universe would change their mind if they read the Koran?

 

What if I have read the Koran several times in different languages and the secondary and tertiary texts as well as scholarly redactions and have learnt about Islam for 20 years and I am still an atheist?

 

What if I was an Imam in a Masjid and a Koran scholar in an Islamic Culture Centre and after reading more and more texts decided that it does not make sense and I have become an atheist? Then what?

 

 

I don't understand what you mean. People become atheists at all stages of life. Some become atheists early while others late.

I would, however, comment that I had a much more difficult time deconverting than would most atheists. Deconverting from Islam is a terrible experience because of how much the Quran degrades ex-muslims or the hatred towards them in places like the Hadiths. For this reason the idea of deconverting is almost absolutely foreign to a Muslim, because he is brought up close-minded and is not really allowed to question anything about his beliefs. Even as a child I questioned my parents about certain things about Allah, and when it was a tough question, the response would simply be "We don't ask "why" when talking about God." or something similar. So really I would find it amazing if an Imam deconverted, just because by then the indoctrination is a little too hard to get rid of.

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I don't understand what you mean. People become atheists at all stages of life. Some become atheists early while others late.

I would, however, comment that I had a much more difficult time deconverting than would most atheists. Deconverting from Islam is a terrible experience because of how much the Quran degrades ex-muslims or the hatred towards them in places like the Hadiths. For this reason the idea of deconverting is almost absolutely foreign to a Muslim, because he is brought up close-minded and is not really allowed to question anything about his beliefs. Even as a child I questioned my parents about certain things about Allah, and when it was a tough question, the response would simply be "We don't ask "why" when talking about God." or something similar. So really I would find it amazing if an Imam deconverted, just because by then the indoctrination is a little too hard to get rid of.

Sorry for butting in. My questions were directed at Abu Firdaws.

I found it interesting that he seems to think that you hold up a Koran and people will fall for it automatically. Hence the different hypothetical scenarios.

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Sorry for butting in. My questions were directed at Abu Firdaws.

I found it interesting that he seems to think that you hold up a Koran and people will fall for it automatically. Hence the different hypothetical scenarios.

 

Oops, didn't realize. Your questions sounded like they were by a non-Muslim but I just thought I didn't understand the question. Sorry about that.

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May I ask you a question?

 

Why do you believe that if someone who does not require a god, who does not see any evidence for the existence of any god and is perfectly content with life and the Universe would change their mind if they read the Koran?

 

What if I have read the Koran several times in different languages and the secondary and tertiary texts as well as scholarly redactions and have learnt about Islam for 20 years and I am still an atheist?

 

What if I was an Imam in a Masjid and a Koran scholar in an Islamic Culture Centre and after reading more and more texts decided that it does not make sense and I have become an atheist? Then what?

 

I never said that everyone who reads the Qur'an will become a Muslim, but what is clear is that atheist101 has not understood what Islam is about, therefore he cannot make a decision based upon knowledge.

 

Also, for the record, I have never come across a scholar/person of knowledge who has left Islam. Simply reading the Qur'an, or even being an Imam doesn't make you a scholar/person of knowledge, and these days any Tom, ###### and Harry can become an Imam.

 

You can take what you want from this, I have NEVER come across a person who was a knowledgeable and practising Muslim who followed the Qur'an and the Sunnah who left Islam. I'm not saying that they do not exist, I just have never met one. Now what I have seen is random people on YouTube who CLEARLY weren't practicing Islam to begin with (and therefore weren't even Muslim) go on about how they were Muslims and then left Islam.

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So what part of Ex-Muslim do you not understand?

I don't understand what you mean. People become atheists at all stages of life. Some become atheists early while others late.

I would, however, comment that I had a much more difficult time deconverting than would most atheists. Deconverting from Islam is a terrible experience because of how much the Quran degrades ex-muslims or the hatred towards them in places like the Hadiths. For this reason the idea of deconverting is almost absolutely foreign to a Muslim, because he is brought up close-minded and is not really allowed to question anything about his beliefs. Even as a child I questioned my parents about certain things about Allah, and when it was a tough question, the response would simply be "We don't ask "why" when talking about God." or something similar. So really I would find it amazing if an Imam deconverted, just because by then the indoctrination is a little too hard to get rid of.

 

Again, you show your ignorance in regards to what Islam is about my friend. Your parents telling you that you are a Muslim doesn't make you a Muslim. I was never raised as a Muslim, sure I was told that I was a Muslim, but that's about it... then Allaah guided me so I studied Islaam and I became a practising Muslim, the only practising Muslim at that time in my family in fact -- so you can't say I was closed-minded, brainwashed, or whatever.

 

So please, don't try to make out as if you were a Muslim and then left Islaam, because your ignorance is clear to any Muslim who knows even a little bit about their faith (no offence).

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I never said that everyone who reads the Qur'an will become a Muslim, but what is clear is that atheist101 has not understood what Islam is about, therefore he cannot make a decision based upon knowledge.

 

Also, for the record, I have never come across a scholar/person of knowledge who has left Islam. Simply reading the Qur'an, or even being an Imam doesn't make you a scholar/person of knowledge, and these days any Tom, ###### and Harry can become an Imam.

 

Ooops, then I apologise. I took your assertion "what our purpose on this earth is (according to the Qur'an)" to mean that we need the Koran to understand what humans are doing on this planet. So anyone who does not believe the Koran is of divine origins will never know and thus requires to become a believer.

 

Well, maybe atheist101 has a very good understanding but you don't recognise it or maybe he is not formulating it in a way everybody understands it.

 

You can take what you want from this, I have NEVER come across a person who was a knowledgeable and practising Muslim who followed the Qur'an and the Sunnah who left Islam. I'm not saying that they do not exist, I just have never met one. Now what I have seen is random people on YouTube who CLEARLY weren't practicing Islam to begin with (and therefore weren't even Muslim) go on about how they were Muslims and then left Islam.

 

My experience is exactly the opposite. In fact, there are entire groups consisting of ex-Muslims from different countries all exchanging ideas and offering assistance to other people who have left Islam. One was even translating Hadith texts and providing dawah actively.

 

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

But now I have a new one after what you said: are you saying that not every person calling themselves a Muslim should be considered a Muslim? My understanding of the definition was that a person who believes in the Muslim god and the messenger and worshipping this god following the prescribed rituals is a Muslim. Muslims then get bonus points for reading the Koran and performing different tasks.

Is every person who is now an ex-Muslim considered by you to have never been a proper Muslim?

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Ooops, then I apologise. I took your assertion "what our purpose on this earth is (according to the Qur'an)" to mean that we need the Koran to understand what humans are doing on this planet. So anyone who does not believe the Koran is of divine origins will never know and thus requires to become a believer.

 

Well, maybe atheist101 has a very good understanding but you don't recognise it or maybe he is not formulating it in a way everybody understands it.

My experience is exactly the opposite. In fact, there are entire groups consisting of ex-Muslims from different countries all exchanging ideas and offering assistance to other people who have left Islam. One was even translating Hadith texts and providing dawah actively.

 

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

But now I have a new one after what you said: are you saying that not every person calling themselves a Muslim should be considered a Muslim? My understanding of the definition was that a person who believes in the Muslim god and the messenger and worshipping this god following the prescribed rituals is a Muslim. Muslims then get bonus points for reading the Koran and performing different tasks.

Is every person who is now an ex-Muslim considered by you to have never been a proper Muslim?

 

He doesn't give me the impression of someone who has or had knowledge of the religion, but of course I could be wrong.

 

Like I said in my previous post, I have never come across a Muslim who had knowledge of Islam who then left the religion. I have seen videos on YouTube of people claiming to have been Muslim but then left, but the things that they say simply do not add up. You cannot have been a Muslim for God knows how many years without knowing how to recite the first Chapter of the Qur'an. I don't expect you to be able to appreciate what I am saying, but this is what I have seen. Are there individuals who had knowledge but then left Islam out there? Well, there must be, I just haven't met any.

 

If someone calls themselves a Muslim then we consider them to be a Muslim unless we see something in them which constitutes disbelief. Even then we don't automatically take them out of the religion, because someone may have done/said something out of ignorance; in general we don't go around saying this person is a believer or this person is a disbeliever (if they claim to be a Muslim). However, when we see someone leave Islam, and is then saying things like "Why did God create us?", or "Do we have free will?" then it becomes clear that that person clearly never knew Islam to begin with. If I tell you I used to be a professional racer and then you find out I don't even know how to start a car, are you going to believe what I say?

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I never said that everyone who reads the Qur'an will become a Muslim, but what is clear is that atheist101 has not understood what Islam is about, therefore he cannot make a decision based upon knowledge.

 

Also, for the record, I have never come across a scholar/person of knowledge who has left Islam. Simply reading the Qur'an, or even being an Imam doesn't make you a scholar/person of knowledge, and these days any Tom, ###### and Harry can become an Imam.

 

You can take what you want from this, I have NEVER come across a person who was a knowledgeable and practising Muslim who followed the Qur'an and the Sunnah who left Islam. I'm not saying that they do not exist, I just have never met one. Now what I have seen is random people on YouTube who CLEARLY weren't practicing Islam to begin with (and therefore weren't even Muslim) go on about how they were Muslims and then left Islam.

 

The fact that you have never seen a scholar that has left Islam is because they became a scholar since they already fully believed Islam to be the truth. How many scholars have you come across that ever doubted Islam to be true? So really this is switching the cause and effect. Someone that doubted Islam to begin with would not grow up to be a practicing Muslim. A practicing Muslim most likely never doubted Islam (with exceptions like converts), and THAT is why you don't see practicing Muslims deconvert. They are practicing because they already believe. Don't switch the cause and effect.

 

Again, you show your ignorance in regards to what Islam is about my friend. Your parents telling you that you are a Muslim doesn't make you a Muslim. I was never raised as a Muslim, sure I was told that I was a Muslim, but that's about it... then Allaah guided me so I studied Islaam and I became a practising Muslim, the only practising Muslim at that time in my family in fact -- so you can't say I was closed-minded, brainwashed, or whatever.

 

So please, don't try to make out as if you were a Muslim and then left Islaam, because your ignorance is clear to any Muslim who knows even a little bit about their faith (no offence).

 

Really? Perhaps you don't understand. Not only was I a devout practicing Muslim, I also began researching the different philosophies, of atheism, other religions, etc. in order to be able to debate with people that Islam is the truth. I NEVER doubted Islam until very very recently. You are going to tell me that I don't know Islam? I've studied details you probably never came across. I'm not saying I'm a scholar. I'm saying I'm not some guy that never was a practicing Muslim and one day just decided to leave Islam. My family is very very devout. There is no doubt in their mind that Islam is the truth and until recently I was exactly like them in this manner. But see it's all really useless, what I am saying there. Because whenever you see an example of something that is not how you would imagine in your world view, i.e. a devout Muslim who had no doubts that in a matter of months deconverted, you simply choose not to believe it and make up a story about how that person is not what he says he is. For you, truth doesn't matter as long as you don't have to change your mind. To you it doesn't matter that I was a devout Muslim studying Islam with the intention of converting people I know, and that by being honest with myself I deconverted. Because you'll just ignore the truth and instead say that I know nothing about Islam and that I wasn't ever a devout Muslim, never a practicing Muslim, and don't even know the basics of true Islam. Truth is smacking you in the face but you refuse to look at it.

 

...

Well, maybe atheist101 has a very good understanding but you don't recognise it or maybe he is not formulating it in a way everybody understands it.

My experience is exactly the opposite. In fact, there are entire groups consisting of ex-Muslims from different countries all exchanging ideas and offering assistance to other people who have left Islam. One was even translating Hadith texts and providing dawah actively.

Correct. Of course what's the value of truth to people like Abu Firdaws, who will even call you a fraud if you are a counterexample to their worldview.

 

 

He doesn't give me the impression of someone who has or had knowledge of the religion, but of course I could be wrong.

 

Like I said in my previous post, I have never come across a Muslim who had knowledge of Islam who then left the religion. I have seen videos on YouTube of people claiming to have been Muslim but then left, but the things that they say simply do not add up. You cannot have been a Muslim for God knows how many years without knowing how to recite the first Chapter of the Qur'an. I don't expect you to be able to appreciate what I am saying, but this is what I have seen. Are there individuals who had knowledge but then left Islam out there? Well, there must be, I just haven't met any.

 

If someone calls themselves a Muslim then we consider them to be a Muslim unless we see something in them which constitutes disbelief. Even then we don't automatically take them out of the religion, because someone may have done/said something out of ignorance; in general we don't go around saying this person is a believer or this person is a disbeliever (if they claim to be a Muslim). However, when we see someone leave Islam, and is then saying things like "Why did God create us?", or "Do we have free will?" then it becomes clear that that person clearly never knew Islam to begin with. If I tell you I used to be a professional racer and then you find out I don't even know how to start a car, are you going to believe what I say?

 

Adding the qualifier "but of course I could be wrong" but never actually conceiving of this option to be true is being intellectually dishonest. Why not say what's really on your mind, "He doesn't give me the impression of someone who has or had knowledge of the religion, and even if I am proven wrong on this manner I will continue to believe that he did not know anything about Islam, was never a practicing Muslim, etc., and it is impossible that I am wrong."

I already explained why a practicing Muslim would most likely never leave Islam. So answer: Are they practicing because they believe, or do they believe because they are practicing? And ever see anyone that didn't believe and still practiced? Do you understand why this is a problem or do I have to spell it out a different way?

Most of the ex-muslims on youtube are frauds, but that's only for things like spreading Christianity. Atheists wouldn't hire people to pretend to be ex-Muslims so that they could spread the gospel of no gospels. On the contrary I know how to recite a good amount of the 30th para. Am I just another one of those non-practicing Ex-Muslims that somehow ... practiced Islam?

No, it does not mean I never knew Islam to begin with. As a Muslim I had gone through these questions and sort of accepted superficial answers. There was no way I was going to question Islam. But once I became an atheist the lack of good answers became clear to me because I was actually willing to accept truth rather than what I was indoctrinated to believe.

Your racer analogy doesn't make any sense here.

Would you ever accept something as evidence against Islam? Of course not. This is clear in my thread about "Proof that the Quran is the word of God" in which no one even DOUBTS that the Quran is the word of God. I asked for something that, if proven correct, would show the Quran to be false - but such an idea is absolutely foreign to Muslims. This makes perfect sense with the fact that I never even doubted the Quran to be false. I was willing to say things like maybe the Quran is metaphorical when referring to creation since we know evolution to be true, but never in a million years would I have DOUBTED the Quran. Only after I became honest with myself that my mind would never let me falsify Islam did I began a quest for empirical evidence. Seeing as there was none I knew immediately that my whole belief was nothing more than faith.

Do you care if what you believe is right? If so, you would accept that there are people like me, once devout practicing Muslims with an understand of Islam who then deconverted. If not, you may continue to live the delusion that people like me do not exist. If you don't care if what you believe is right then I have no respect for you. But I don't think you are possibly thick enough to not care about truth. I know somehow I'll reach a part of you that actually cares about truth - perhaps at least to get you to accept that people like me exist.

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The fact that you have never seen a scholar that has left Islam is because they became a scholar since they already fully believed Islam to be the truth. How many scholars have you come across that ever doubted Islam to be true? So really this is switching the cause and effect. Someone that doubted Islam to begin with would not grow up to be a practicing Muslim. A practicing Muslim most likely never doubted Islam (with exceptions like converts), and THAT is why you don't see practicing Muslims deconvert. They are practicing because they already believe. Don't switch the cause and effect.

Really? Perhaps you don't understand. Not only was I a devout practicing Muslim, I also began researching the different philosophies, of atheism, other religions, etc. in order to be able to debate with people that Islam is the truth. I NEVER doubted Islam until very very recently. You are going to tell me that I don't know Islam? I've studied details you probably never came across. I'm not saying I'm a scholar. I'm saying I'm not some guy that never was a practicing Muslim and one day just decided to leave Islam. My family is very very devout. There is no doubt in their mind that Islam is the truth and until recently I was exactly like them in this manner. But see it's all really useless, what I am saying there. Because whenever you see an example of something that is not how you would imagine in your world view, i.e. a devout Muslim who had no doubts that in a matter of months deconverted, you simply choose not to believe it and make up a story about how that person is not what he says he is. For you, truth doesn't matter as long as you don't have to change your mind. To you it doesn't matter that I was a devout Muslim studying Islam with the intention of converting people I know, and that by being honest with myself I deconverted. Because you'll just ignore the truth and instead say that I know nothing about Islam and that I wasn't ever a devout Muslim, never a practicing Muslim, and don't even know the basics of true Islam. Truth is smacking you in the face but you refuse to look at it.

Correct. Of course what's the value of truth to people like Abu Firdaws, who will even call you a fraud if you are a counterexample to their worldview.

Adding the qualifier "but of course I could be wrong" but never actually conceiving of this option to be true is being intellectually dishonest. Why not say what's really on your mind, "He doesn't give me the impression of someone who has or had knowledge of the religion, and even if I am proven wrong on this manner I will continue to believe that he did not know anything about Islam, was never a practicing Muslim, etc., and it is impossible that I am wrong."

I already explained why a practicing Muslim would most likely never leave Islam. So answer: Are they practicing because they believe, or do they believe because they are practicing? And ever see anyone that didn't believe and still practiced? Do you understand why this is a problem or do I have to spell it out a different way?

Most of the ex-muslims on youtube are frauds, but that's only for things like spreading Christianity. Atheists wouldn't hire people to pretend to be ex-Muslims so that they could spread the gospel of no gospels. On the contrary I know how to recite a good amount of the 30th para. Am I just another one of those non-practicing Ex-Muslims that somehow ... practiced Islam?

No, it does not mean I never knew Islam to begin with. As a Muslim I had gone through these questions and sort of accepted superficial answers. There was no way I was going to question Islam. But once I became an atheist the lack of good answers became clear to me because I was actually willing to accept truth rather than what I was indoctrinated to believe.

Your racer analogy doesn't make any sense here.

Would you ever accept something as evidence against Islam? Of course not. This is clear in my thread about "Proof that the Quran is the word of God" in which no one even DOUBTS that the Quran is the word of God. I asked for something that, if proven correct, would show the Quran to be false - but such an idea is absolutely foreign to Muslims. This makes perfect sense with the fact that I never even doubted the Quran to be false. I was willing to say things like maybe the Quran is metaphorical when referring to creation since we know evolution to be true, but never in a million years would I have DOUBTED the Quran. Only after I became honest with myself that my mind would never let me falsify Islam did I began a quest for empirical evidence. Seeing as there was none I knew immediately that my whole belief was nothing more than faith.

Do you care if what you believe is right? If so, you would accept that there are people like me, once devout practicing Muslims with an understand of Islam who then deconverted. If not, you may continue to live the delusion that people like me do not exist. If you don't care if what you believe is right then I have no respect for you. But I don't think you are possibly thick enough to not care about truth. I know somehow I'll reach a part of you that actually cares about truth - perhaps at least to get you to accept that people like me exist.

 

I'm not doubting that you think you were a knowledgeable Muslim, but the impression I get is that you weren't. Telling me that you studied Islam with the intention of converting people is in of itself incorrect. Firm faith comes from knowledge and understanding, sure it's possible to be a Muslim without having firm knowledge and understanding, but then that results in people like you who leave the religion due to some misunderstanding. Islam encourages people to seek and uphold the truth even if it goes against their own wishes, so you trying to make out Muslims are just blind followers is not something I recognise. Try forcing yourself up to pray early in the morning when it's freezing cold for something you don't even believe in, see how you get on.

 

Kind of weird how you state that evolution is a fact but anyway, don't really want to get into that.

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I'm not doubting that you think you were a knowledgeable Muslim, but the impression I get is that you weren't. Telling me that you studied Islam with the intention of converting people is in of itself incorrect. Firm faith comes from knowledge and understanding, sure it's possible to be a Muslim without having firm knowledge and understanding, but then that results in people like you who leave the religion due to some misunderstanding. Islam encourages people to seek and uphold the truth even if it goes against their own wishes, so you trying to make out Muslims are just blind followers is not something I recognise. Try forcing yourself up to pray early in the morning when it's freezing cold for something you don't even believe in, see how you get on.

 

Kind of weird how you state that evolution is a fact but anyway, don't really want to get into that.

 

I didn't leave Islam due to a "misunderstanding." Clearly you don't care to ask the true story, you're going to continue believing your own little story about me - a Muslim with little knowledge of Islam and little faith who barely practiced Islam misunderstood some beautiful part of Islam and that's why he deconverted.

I'll tell you the story, again, but of course you won't care to listen. I deconverted because of lack of evidence.

 

Did you miss that? Let me restate that:

I deconverted because of lack of evidence.

 

Sorry to tell you, I did not deconvert because of some misconception. I did not deconvert because of lack of knowledge of Islam. I did not deconvert as some mistake in my judgment. It must be hard accepting something that your worldview would say is impossible, so I'm gonna have to force it down. I was a firm believer in Islam, never once doubted it, but once I came to understand the nature of evidence, Islam's lack of evidence led me to deconvert.

 

It's great that Islam encourages people to uphold truth even if they don't like it. I didn't like to believe that Islam lacked evidence, but I chose to uphold truth even when I didn't want to believe it.

 

I don't understand your last sentence of the paragraph. "Try forcing yourself up to pray early in the morning when it's freezing cold for something you don't even believe in, see how you get on." What? Why would I do that? For your information, though, I did pray Fajr as a Muslim. What's your point?

 

Let me summarize the theme: evidence. It's kind of weird that I say evolution is fact? Nope. You know why? That's right. Evidence.

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I didn't leave Islam due to a "misunderstanding." Clearly you don't care to ask the true story, you're going to continue believing your own little story about me - a Muslim with little knowledge of Islam and little faith who barely practiced Islam misunderstood some beautiful part of Islam and that's why he deconverted.

I'll tell you the story, again, but of course you won't care to listen. I deconverted because of lack of evidence.

 

Did you miss that? Let me restate that:

I deconverted because of lack of evidence.

 

Sorry to tell you, I did not deconvert because of some misconception. I did not deconvert because of lack of knowledge of Islam. I did not deconvert as some mistake in my judgment. It must be hard accepting something that your worldview would say is impossible, so I'm gonna have to force it down. I was a firm believer in Islam, never once doubted it, but once I came to understand the nature of evidence, Islam's lack of evidence led me to deconvert.

 

It's great that Islam encourages people to uphold truth even if they don't like it. I didn't like to believe that Islam lacked evidence, but I chose to uphold truth even when I didn't want to believe it.

 

I don't understand your last sentence of the paragraph. "Try forcing yourself up to pray early in the morning when it's freezing cold for something you don't even believe in, see how you get on." What? Why would I do that? For your information, though, I did pray Fajr as a Muslim. What's your point?

 

Let me summarize the theme: evidence. It's kind of weird that I say evolution is fact? Nope. You know why? That's right. Evidence.

 

But you can't have it both ways, on one hand you are saying that you were a sincere and devout Muslim, and on the other you are saying that you didn't question anything and simply blindly believed...

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But you can't have it both ways, on one hand you are saying that you were a sincere and devout Muslim, and on the other you are saying that you didn't question anything and simply blindly believed...

 

I was a sincere and devout Muslim particularly because I did not question anything and simply believed. I don't understand what the problem is.

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I was a sincere and devout Muslim particularly because I did not question anything and simply believed. I don't understand what the problem is.

 

But how can you be sincere and have knowledge if you simply believe without giving thought? I mean, sure at some point it does come down to belief, but even then that belief must be based upon something.

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But how can you be sincere and have knowledge if you simply believe without giving thought? I mean, sure at some point it does come down to belief, but even then that belief must be based upon something.

 

I still don't see the problem. I was sincere and had knowledge about Islam. Why can't this be harmonious with blind belief?

 

Edit: For example, a Christian may be blindly believing. Obviously, there are many Christians with knowledge about Christianity and they are very sincere Christians. Where's the problem? Do you mean to say blind belief is impossible? How, then, do you explain other religions? Any explanation you provide would apply to Islam as well (e.g. if you say it is a result of indoctrination, then the same would apply to Islam).

Edited by atheism101

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I still don't see the problem. I was sincere and had knowledge about Islam. Why can't this be harmonious with blind belief?

 

Edit: For example, a Christian may be blindly believing. Obviously, there are many Christians with knowledge about Christianity and they are very sincere Christians. Where's the problem? Do you mean to say blind belief is impossible? How, then, do you explain other religions? Any explanation you provide would apply to Islam as well (e.g. if you say it is a result of indoctrination, then the same would apply to Islam).

 

I'm not saying that blind belief is impossible, I'm saying that blind belief is not based upon firm knowledge and understanding and therefore the belief itself is not strong.

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I'm not saying that blind belief is impossible, I'm saying that blind belief is not based upon firm knowledge and understanding and therefore the belief itself is not strong.

 

No, instead it is the exact opposite. Blind belief is 100% belief. It is the strongest belief possible. Whereas a normal believer may accept being wrong, a blind believer, because the belief is not based on evidence, will never accept any evidence that will go against the belief.

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Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).

 

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).

 

Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness “And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was.” (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.

 

The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.

 

Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the “bad”. The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said “Do not be overly righteous” (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

 

Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance. [using large font size is not allowed]

 

you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetancient-hebrew(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/12_goodbad.html

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Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).

 

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).

 

Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness “And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was.” (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.

 

The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.

 

Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the “bad”. The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said “Do not be overly righteous” (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

 

Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance. [using large font size is not allowed]

 

you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetancient-hebrew(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/12_goodbad.html

 

Unless you can somehow reconcile this with, say, being raped at age 10, I will cast this away as just fancy word play. You don't have to feel happiness to feel sadness, and you don't have to feel sadness to feel happiness.

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This is a really good thread, even though you two have so much trouble grasping what the other is saying. I thought it might be helpful to those reading this thread, (assuming there is somebody besides me!) if I told how I came to abandon the Christian religion in which I was raised. First, I actually thought about the Creeds that I had been taught to say by rote: "I believe in...." Much of those creeds made little or no sense to me. The Trinity was gibberish. The resurrection of Christ stuck me as improbable, at best. The "life everlasting" promised seemed like a magical prize. When I actually went and studied the origins of those statements of belief, I realized that the early Roman Catholic Church literally imposed them upon people, in spite of the real lack of supporting evidence. When I got to college, I took a course on "Contempory Christian Thought" taught by a world renowned scholar, and another on the origins of Judo-Christian Scriptures. Knowledge of how religions actually came into existence made me an atheist. Religion is clearly the product of the mind of man. The fact that the men who make it up quote a supposed deity does NOT prove that deity exists. Sorry Abu Firdaws, but no amount of reading and study of the Quaran could ever convince me that it came from any god! I do believe that faith in god is not necessarily delusional, but also believe it is something forced upon you by your parents. Nobody is born Christian or Jew or Muslim. I have met many atheists who come from very religious backgrounds, and they, like me and Atheist 101 did not deconvert lightly. I was sincere, but the more thought I gave, and the more I have studied over the years, the more sure I have become there is no phantom Man-in-the-Sky passing on secret messages to humans via various prophets. Science may ultimately explain how the universe came to be, or maybe not, but we do not need to just say "Goddidit!"

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This is a really good thread, even though you two have so much trouble grasping what the other is saying. I thought it might be helpful to those reading this thread, (assuming there is somebody besides me!) if I told how I came to abandon the Christian religion in which I was raised. First, I actually thought about the Creeds that I had been taught to say by rote: "I believe in...." Much of those creeds made little or no sense to me. The Trinity was gibberish. The resurrection of Christ stuck me as improbable, at best. The "life everlasting" promised seemed like a magical prize. When I actually went and studied the origins of those statements of belief, I realized that the early Roman Catholic Church literally imposed them upon people, in spite of the real lack of supporting evidence. When I got to college, I took a course on "Contempory Christian Thought" taught by a world renowned scholar, and another on the origins of Judo-Christian Scriptures. Knowledge of how religions actually came into existence made me an atheist. Religion is clearly the product of the mind of man. The fact that the men who make it up quote a supposed deity does NOT prove that deity exists. Sorry Abu Firdaws, but no amount of reading and study of the Quaran could ever convince me that it came from any god! I do believe that faith in god is not necessarily delusional, but also believe it is something forced upon you by your parents. Nobody is born Christian or Jew or Muslim. I have met many atheists who come from very religious backgrounds, and they, like me and Atheist 101 did not deconvert lightly. I was sincere, but the more thought I gave, and the more I have studied over the years, the more sure I have become there is no phantom Man-in-the-Sky passing on secret messages to humans via various prophets. Science may ultimately explain how the universe came to be, or maybe not, but we do not need to just say "Goddidit!"

I expect that the likely response from Muslims will be along the lines of "Well of COURSE you found Christianity illogical! The Christian god is not the real God!" I also expect that Muslims will be very willing to accept your deconversion story to be true. Sadly, Muslims simply refuse to accept my deconversion. They would rather not believe that a truly devout Muslim could actually leave Islam. Hypocrisy, to say the least.

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I expect that the likely response from Muslims will be along the lines of "Well of COURSE you found Christianity illogical! The Christian god is not the real God!" I also expect that Muslims will be very willing to accept your deconversion story to be true. Sadly, Muslims simply refuse to accept my deconversion. They would rather not believe that a truly devout Muslim could actually leave Islam. Hypocrisy, to say the least.

 

The comments that you have posted so far show that you had and have very little knowledge about Islam to be honest. How do I know? Of course by reading your comments so far. I can even give example from the very post i have quoted now. You gave the notion that Muslims say/believe 'Christian god is not the real God' which is not true. It is the same God, creator of the whole universe, that believing Muslims,Christians, Jews worship. Muslims are against associating partner with One and only God, who has power over everything, and Qur'an is now the Book to follow.

 

005.015 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -

 

Al-Qur'an, 005.015 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

 

I am yet to see Muslims here in Gawaher attacking the God in Christianity.

 

Another thing you do is that keep on repeating the same thing even when Muslims have answered your question. You quote the answer but rearrange that same question previously asked by you using some different words and/or modifying the sentence structure which is really boring.

 

Rhetoric and blanket arguments often accompany your posts as well.

 

So, yes, it is really difficult to accept that you were a 'truly devout Muslim'.

Edited by Saracen21stC

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I was sincere, but the more thought I gave, and the more I have studied over the years, the more sure I have become there is no phantom Man-in-the-Sky passing on secret messages to humans via various prophets.

 

First of all, Muslims do not believe that there is a man in the sky. When you come to talk about theology of Islam, avoid this type of word(s) as they are misleading. And I don't know how the messages to humans is 'secret' when it is meant to be accepted and followed by them.

 

 

Science may ultimately explain how the universe came to be, or maybe not, but we do not need to just say "Goddidit!"

 

Just because we say 'God did it' does not mean that there can't be any other explanation for the mechanism. In (orthodox) Islam, we do NOT believe that Allah is everywhere (in the universe). It is rather Allah has power over everything. Allah is separate and distinct from His creation. As a result, we (Muslims) can and should observe and carry out systematic studies of this universe.

 

 

003.190 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,-

 

 

So, it's a common misconception to say that Muslims say 'Goddidit!' when there is no other way of explaining it/ the mechanism.

Edited by Saracen21stC
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The comments that you have posted so far show that you had and have very little knowledge about Islam to be honest. How do I know? Of course by reading your comments so far. I can even give example from the very post i have quoted now. You gave the notion that Muslims say/believe 'Christian god is not the real God' which is not true. It is the same God, creator of the whole universe, that believing Muslims,Christians, Jews worship. Muslims are against associating partner with One and only God, who has power over everything, and Qur'an is now the Book to follow.

This is pathetic. I commented on how no Muslim on this forum is willing to believe that I was ever a devout Muslim, and clearly you only support my point. You're trying to find errors in my knowledge of Islam where there are none, and you're not even the first to do it in my time here. Now let's see if any of what you're saying makes sense.

The Christian God is a TRINITY. Muslims do NOT agree with this. Certainly, Muslims say things along the lines of that the God that revealed the Bible (Tawrat, Injeel), also revealed the Quran. But this is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand and just shows how desperate you are to make it seem like I don't know what I am talking about.

 

 

Another thing you do is that keep on repeating the same thing even when Muslims have answered your question. You quote the answer but rearrange that same question previously asked by you using some different words and/or modifying the sentence structure which is really boring.

Yes, I will do that if the question is not sufficiently answered or, in many cases, not answered at all.

 

Rhetoric and blanket arguments often accompany your posts as well.

So, yes, it is really difficult to accept that you were a 'truly devout Muslim'.

Wonderful. Please explain how the first and second sentence are related.

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