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Why Is Indoctrination Okay?

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What accounts for most of the growth of most religions is that children grow up to follow what their parents indoctrinated them to believe. Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion? If Islam really is a true religion, why not just make the child have an open mind? This way, when the child grows up he will end up accepting the evidence for Islam anyway because, at least according to you, it is the truth. Why should it be necessary at all to indoctrinate the child by telling him the one true God is Allah, or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Apollo, or whatever. The evidence should be easily accessible and acceptable. Are people scared that their children will end up not following their religion? Why would that be, if their religion really is true?

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In my faith, a person cannot officially declare their religion until they've hit the age of maturity, which we say is 15. Even then, the person can hold off if he/she chooses. The independent investigation of truth is vital for us.

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What accounts for most of the growth of most religions is that children grow up to follow what their parents indoctrinated them to believe. Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion? If Islam really is a true religion, why not just make the child have an open mind? This way, when the child grows up he will end up accepting the evidence for Islam anyway because, at least according to you, it is the truth. Why should it be necessary at all to indoctrinate the child by telling him the one true God is Allah, or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Apollo, or whatever. The evidence should be easily accessible and acceptable. Are people scared that their children will end up not following their religion? Why would that be, if their religion really is true?

 

Well from a none Islamic perspective (Roman Catholic) the final confirmation happens in the US as a Jr/Sr in High school now so between 16-18 years of age. Do parents not have the right to raise and instruct them in morality and faith as they see as correct? They are there children. Also the problem of "indoctrination" goes the other way also at least in the states. Children have evolution stuffed at them and the big bang theory as though they are fact with no other options given. Once a child reaches adult hood and is independent they at least in the Catholic Church to leave if they wish. Faith cannot be forced.

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In my faith, a person cannot officially declare their religion until they've hit the age of maturity, which we say is 15. Even then, the person can hold off if he/she chooses. The independent investigation of truth is vital for us.

 

Okay, but if someone has drilled into your head that Islam is the right religion for 15 years of your life, you have been indoctrinated. Whether or not you would have chosen the same thing on your own is something that is inaccessible.

 

 

Well from a none Islamic perspective (Roman Catholic) the final confirmation happens in the US as a Jr/Sr in High school now so between 16-18 years of age. Do parents not have the right to raise and instruct them in morality and faith as they see as correct? They are there children. Also the problem of "indoctrination" goes the other way also at least in the states. Children have evolution stuffed at them and the big bang theory as though they are fact with no other options given. Once a child reaches adult hood and is independent they at least in the Catholic Church to leave if they wish. Faith cannot be forced.

 

Parents should not drill into their children's heads that a certain religion is absolute truth. They could easily teach the morality of the religion without forcing down the religion. The argument you just made is like me saying do parents not have the right to beat their kids as they see right? They are their kids.

 

No, the problem of indoctrination does not go the other way. Evolution and the Big Bang are both scientifically accepted as fact. You know why? They are based on evidence. The observations are logical, repeatable and well-established by peer review. Saying teaching science is indoctrination is as absurd as saying giving your kids allowance is like stealing money from them. There is absolutely no way you could make that claim.

I did not touch on the topic of whether or not they are free to leave, because really who's gonna stop them? However since they are indoctrinated most will not leave. Most people born Muslims will stay Muslims, most people born Christians will stay Christian, etc. all because of indoctrination.

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Okay, but if someone has drilled into your head that Islam is the right religion for 15 years of your life, you have been indoctrinated. Whether or not you would have chosen the same thing on your own is something that is inaccessible.

Parents should not drill into their children's heads that a certain religion is absolute truth. They could easily teach the morality of the religion without forcing down the religion. The argument you just made is like me saying do parents not have the right to beat their kids as they see right? They are their kids.

 

I definitely agree with you, Atheism101. In many societies and religions, the culture and religion are drilled into your head. If you know only one right early on, it is going to be hard to even conceptualize any other version of "possible right." It is ok if done responsibly and without negatives teachings about other faiths.

 

In the Baha'i Faith, we do try to go about it differently by a process approved by our administrative leaders. It's not required to follow this format but it is recommended.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetruhiresources(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/book-3/ruhi-book-3-teaching-children-s-classes-grade-1/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetruhiresources(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/book-3/ruhi-b...lasses-grade-1/[/url]

 

Here is one except from it:

 

"It is hoped that children's classes will provide a means for developing in the children attitudes and spiritual qualities that will bring them closer to God. In the lessons for grade one, the emphasis is on spiritual qualities, and little attention is given to general knowledge about the Faith. When the foundation of the child's character has been established, there is ample time in later years to impart the necessary knowledge."

 

Spiritual qualities and awareness are important in this system; however, teaching only Baha'i specific knowledge is not promoted. In other words, its the teaching of a spiritual toolkit which a child can use as the child use and build upon.

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name='atheism101' date='Jan 31 2012, 05:09 PM' post='1253958']

Parents should not drill into their children's heads that a certain religion is absolute truth. They could easily teach the morality of the religion without forcing down the religion. The argument you just made is like me saying do parents not have the right to beat their kids as they see right? They are their kids.

 

It is more than the morality. There are many tennants to the faith. That is why we spend almost 12 years instructing them in what the faith teaches.

 

What do you mean I don't have the right to beat them. :-p You must be from Mississippi. :sl:

 

No, the problem of indoctrination does not go the other way. Evolution and the Big Bang are both scientifically accepted as fact. You know why? They are based on evidence. The observations are logical, repeatable and well-established by peer review. Saying teaching science is indoctrination is as absurd as saying giving your kids allowance is like stealing money from them. There is absolutely no way you could make that claim.

I did not touch on the topic of whether or not they are free to leave, because really who's gonna stop them? However since they are indoctrinated most will not leave. Most people born Muslims will stay Muslims, most people born Christians will stay Christian, etc. all because of indoctrination.

 

On the contrairy yes it does. They are not fact. They are scientific theory. You know the biggest problem with evolution or the big bang theory is? I will enlighten you. They bolth claim to come from nothing but cosmic chance. They came from nothing. The problem is they use the basis of starting from something. So what created the something that everything came from?

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It is more than the morality. There are many tennants to the faith. That is why we spend almost 12 years instructing them in what the faith teaches.

 

What do you mean I don't have the right to beat them. :-p You must be from Mississippi. :sl:

On the contrairy yes it does. They are not fact. They are scientific theory. You know the biggest problem with evolution or the big bang theory is? I will enlighten you. They bolth claim to come from nothing but cosmic chance. They came from nothing. The problem is they use the basis of starting from something. So what created the something that everything came from?

 

 

Dont know how often this needs to be pointed out, but please look up the defination of scientific theory before you call it just a theory.

 

Do you still think gravity is just a theory?

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Dont know how often this needs to be pointed out, but please look up the defination of scientific theory before you call it just a theory.

 

Do you still think gravity is just a theory?

 

Gravity is both a law and a theory.

 

Law = We know without question that objects attract each other

Theory = We are not 100% sure why objects attract each other.

 

Evolution... We know that living organisms do change.. but we definitely do not have scientific certainty as to why species change or why/how life began

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More on Gravity... thanks to NASA

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.nationalgeographic(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/news/2011/05/110505-einstein-theories-confirmed-gravity-probe-nasa-space-science/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.nationalgeographic(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/news/20...-space-science/[/url]

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Dont know how often this needs to be pointed out, but please look up the defination of scientific theory before you call it just a theory.

 

Do you still think gravity is just a theory?

I am quite well aware of the deffinition of scientific theory. I would give the definition but I see it has already been given. Gravity is a law also as has been pointed out. Evolution is not law. Do things evolve? Yes. Do we know why? NO. It seems you missed my real point though in my quote. If evolution is the case who or what created the source material. (Wait don't answer that. It is getting off topic. The topic is on "indoctrination". My point in even bringing it up is showing indoctrination the other way. Why not teach bolth. They can go hand in hand if one knows how to read it properly. The problem is people look to science as if it has all the answers. There are many things still science can't explain. But what ever believe as you wish. I guess I will go back to indoctrinating my children with unscientific theory.

 

In order to have anything to evolve from God would have had to create it. In order to have come from a big bang God would have had to provide the matter for the spark for the bang of life to start. Either way God is the source and man was created in His image.

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I definitely agree with you, Atheism101. In many societies and religions, the culture and religion are drilled into your head. If you know only one right early on, it is going to be hard to even conceptualize any other version of "possible right." It is ok if done responsibly and without negatives teachings about other faiths.

 

In the Baha'i Faith, we do try to go about it differently by a process approved by our administrative leaders. It's not required to follow this format but it is recommended.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetruhiresources(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/book-3/ruhi-book-3-teaching-children-s-classes-grade-1/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetruhiresources(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/book-3/ruhi-b...lasses-grade-1/[/url]

 

Here is one except from it:

 

"It is hoped that children's classes will provide a means for developing in the children attitudes and spiritual qualities that will bring them closer to God. In the lessons for grade one, the emphasis is on spiritual qualities, and little attention is given to general knowledge about the Faith. When the foundation of the child's character has been established, there is ample time in later years to impart the necessary knowledge."

 

Spiritual qualities and awareness are important in this system; however, teaching only Baha'i specific knowledge is not promoted. In other words, its the teaching of a spiritual toolkit which a child can use as the child use and build upon.

 

 

Right, the less indoctrination the better. I'd have been indoctrinated much less were I raised in a Bahai family compared to a Muslim family.

 

It is more than the morality. There are many tennants to the faith. That is why we spend almost 12 years instructing them in what the faith teaches.

 

What do you mean I don't have the right to beat them. :-p You must be from Mississippi. :sl:

On the contrairy yes it does. They are not fact. They are scientific theory. You know the biggest problem with evolution or the big bang theory is? I will enlighten you. They bolth claim to come from nothing but cosmic chance. They came from nothing. The problem is they use the basis of starting from something. So what created the something that everything came from?

 

You don't have the right to beat them. You should be ashamed of yourself. Would you use similar logic to beat your dog?

 

You obviously don't have much of an education if you actually believe "They are scientific theory" has anything to do with their truth. Do you know what a theory is? It's not guesswork as the definition outside of the context of science suggests. Let me tell you. A fact is one observation of something. A scientific theory explains a set of many facts. Therefore a scientific theory can be just as much of a fact as a mankind can be a man. Do you believe in the theory of gravity? I believe I can fly!

 

Now let ME enlighten YOU (actually who am I kidding, this is a lost cause seeing as people like you never change their mind even when truth smacks them in the face). Neither theory is based on chance - for the big bang we are now understanding string theory, and for evolution we have a good idea of how abiogenesis could have happened. But even if it WAS based on chance - if I handed you a shuffled deck of cards would you be impressed? The probability of that very arrangement is 1/(52!). Obviously this is unimpressive - it is equally as unimpressive as something like evolution happening by chance on this planet. We happen to be observing this shuffled deck, so to speak, and if it was different, we wouldn't be around to observe it.

 

Dont know how often this needs to be pointed out, but please look up the defination of scientific theory before you call it just a theory.

 

Do you still think gravity is just a theory?

 

Yep same thing I pointed out.

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Gravity is both a law and a theory.

 

Law = We know without question that objects attract each other

Theory = We are not 100% sure why objects attract each other.

 

Evolution... We know that living organisms do change.. but we definitely do not have scientific certainty as to why species change or why/how life began

 

Again you made it clear you don't know what a theory is.

 

 

I am quite well aware of the deffinition of scientific theory. I would give the definition but I see it has already been given. Gravity is a law also as has been pointed out. Evolution is not law. Do things evolve? Yes. Do we know why? NO. It seems you missed my real point though in my quote. If evolution is the case who or what created the source material. (Wait don't answer that. It is getting off topic. The topic is on "indoctrination". My point in even bringing it up is showing indoctrination the other way. Why not teach bolth. They can go hand in hand if one knows how to read it properly. The problem is people look to science as if it has all the answers. There are many things still science can't explain. But what ever believe as you wish. I guess I will go back to indoctrinating my children with unscientific theory.

 

In order to have anything to evolve from God would have had to create it. In order to have come from a big bang God would have had to provide the matter for the spark for the bang of life to start. Either way God is the source and man was created in His image.

 

Do we know why things evolve? YES!! Do YOU know why things evolve? Obviously not.

If you want to teach evolution next to creationism, then teach greek mythology as a possibility too.

 

No, something evolving does not require God. As I am sure I have said in other threads, we already know that abiogenisis is naturally possible and we understand that evolution is straightforward beyond that point. For the big bang string theory is giving us an idea.

Obviously what you are doing is God of the gaps. Before we knew about evolution people said God created us all directly. Before we knew about gravity people said God carried the sun around. These are all arguments from ignorance.

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name='atheism101' date='Jan 31 2012, 10:38 PM' post='1253973']

You don't have the right to beat them. You should be ashamed of yourself. Would you use similar logic to beat your dog?

 

No kidding I don't have the right to beat them. Apparently you did not see the sarcasem inflected in that statment. You need to lighten up a little. A good idea of when it was sarcasim would of been the wink face and the toung sticking out that is this ;-p

 

You obviously don't have much of an education if you actually believe "They are scientific theory" has anything to do with their truth. Do you know what a theory is? It's not guesswork as the definition outside of the context of science suggests. Let me tell you. A fact is one observation of something. A scientific theory explains a set of many facts. Therefore a scientific theory can be just as much of a fact as a mankind can be a man. Do you believe in the theory of gravity? I believe I can fly!

 

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO thats right because I am religious I am uneducated unlike you! It is the law of gravity. Gravity has moved from more than just theory. Watch out! The apple might hit you in the head. WOW you can fly? Cool prove it and jump (J/k)

 

 

Now let ME enlighten YOU (actually who am I kidding, this is a lost cause seeing as people like you never change their mind even when truth smacks them in the face). Neither theory is based on chance - for the big bang we are now understanding string theory, and for evolution we have a good idea of how abiogenesis could have happened. But even if it WAS based on chance - if I handed you a shuffled deck of cards would you be impressed? The probability of that very arrangement is 1/(52!). Obviously this is unimpressive - it is equally as unimpressive as something like evolution happening by chance on this planet. We happen to be observing this shuffled deck, so to speak, and if it was different, we wouldn't be around to observe it.

Yep same thing I pointed out.

 

See you are assuming I don't hold to evolution. Where I differ from most and this is allowed in the Church is Man was created in God's immage and the source of all came from God. You point out to abiogenesis the deffinition of is as follows "a hypothetical organic phenomenon by which living organisms are created from nonliving matter." It is still a hypothetical unless you have a scientific paper that proves other wise? All I am asking in this case is consider the possibility that God gave existance to the matter living or not for these things to happen. You are no more open minded than me so remove your own plank from your eye before pointing out mine. OOOOOOOOO all wise man of science (role eyes in sarcasm).

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name='atheism101' date='Jan 31 2012, 10:45 PM' post='1253974']

Do we know why things evolve? YES!! Do YOU know why things evolve? Obviously not.

If you want to teach evolution next to creationism, then teach greek mythology as a possibility too.

 

So then since you clame to know why do things evolve? Enlighten me and my primative mind.

 

Thats fine teach it all. I love greek mythology. I don't care how many you teach give it all a equal run.

 

No, something evolving does not require God. As I am sure I have said in other threads, we already know that abiogenisis is naturally possible and we understand that evolution is straightforward beyond that point. For the big bang string theory is giving us an idea.

Obviously what you are doing is God of the gaps. Before we knew about evolution people said God created us all directly. Before we knew about gravity people said God carried the sun around. These are all arguments from ignorance.

 

I did not say the evolving requred God the creating of the needed matter does. Since I am using God to fill in the gaps as you say. Tell me why don't you believe in God and think that science is correct?

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No kidding I don't have the right to beat them. Apparently you did not see the sarcasem inflected in that statment. You need to lighten up a little. A good idea of when it was sarcasim would of been the wink face and the toung sticking out that is this ;-p

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO thats right because I am religious I am uneducated unlike you! It is the law of gravity. Gravity has moved from more than just theory. Watch out! The apple might hit you in the head. WOW you can fly? Cool prove it and jump (J/k)

 

 

See you are assuming I don't hold to evolution. Where I differ from most and this is allowed in the Church is Man was created in God's immage and the source of all came from God. You point out to abiogenesis the deffinition of is as follows "a hypothetical organic phenomenon by which living organisms are created from nonliving matter." It is still a hypothetical unless you have a scientific paper that proves other wise? All I am asking in this case is consider the possibility that God gave existance to the matter living or not for these things to happen. You are no more open minded than me so remove your own plank from your eye before pointing out mine. OOOOOOOOO all wise man of science (role eyes in sarcasm).

 

I didn't understand the Mississippi reference and so I didn't catch the sarcasm.

 

It's the THEORY of gravity. Big bang THEORY. THEORY of evolution. These things explain many facts based on logical conclusions. "Gravity has moved from more than just a theory." Again, you do not understand what a theory is. You are imagining some sort of hierarchy with "law" somehow above theory. A theory explains facts. A law may be, for example, mathematical; it may follow from the theory. If the theory were false the law would also be false, but this does not mean that without an associated "law" something is not true. There is no "law" of evolution because there's no mathematical aspect needing to be quantified.

 

Do your own research. Abiogenesis has been demonstrated as naturally possible. All steps theoretically necessary have been shown in the lab to be possible.

You don't know what open minded means. I'm willing to convert to your religion as soon as you give me evidence of it's truth - that's open minded. On the contrary you will never accept any evidence against your religion and your God is an unfalsifiable hypothesis - that's close minded.

 

 

So then since you clame to know why do things evolve? Enlighten me and my primative mind.

 

Thats fine teach it all. I love greek mythology. I don't care how many you teach give it all a equal run.

I did not say the evolving requred God the creating of the needed matter does. Since I am using God to fill in the gaps as you say. Tell me why don't you believe in God and think that science is correct?

 

Why do things evolve? Evolution is based on variation in population + natural selection + time. This is a straightforward logical theory and the only premise is variation in population, which is self-evident, and ample time. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old, so the time premise is already proven.

 

Are you kidding? You must be insane if you actually agreed with me saying that we should teach every creation myth as an option.

 

That science is correct has nothing to do with my belief in God. I no longer subscribe to a belief in God because there is no empirical evidence to support the supernatural claims made in texts like the bible or the Quran. Unless empirical evidence is provided the belief is based purely on faith. With this understood I then came to further realize that there were many things which went against my beliefs which I had previously ignored, making my "god" unfalsifiable. I had come to accept evolution, for example, but rather than questioning the Quran thought that perhaps the Quranic stories were metaphors. This kind of thinking was obviously not a good way to get to learn truth.

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'atheism101' date='Jan 31 2012, 11:54 PM' post='1253978']

I didn't understand the Mississippi reference and so I didn't catch the sarcasm.

 

It was a current event I read about a state senator in Mississippi that wants to pass a law making it a fellony to spank ones one kid. The language was so vuage it was just stupid. But that is another subject.

 

It's the THEORY of gravity. Big bang THEORY. THEORY of evolution. These things explain many facts based on logical conclusions. "Gravity has moved from more than just a theory." Again, you do not understand what a theory is. You are imagining some sort of hierarchy with "law" somehow above theory. A theory explains facts. A law may be, for example, mathematical; it may follow from the theory. If the theory were false the law would also be false, but this does not mean that without an associated "law" something is not true. There is no "law" of evolution because there's no mathematical aspect needing to be quantified.

 

Ggravity is theory and law I looked it up. When I was going through school it was taught as the law of gravity and as we know scientific law is the last step beond theory. As for evolution yes it has happened (i.e. frogs that will switch gender). Science has done many wonderful things and discovered many wonderful things. What I don't get is why people think science and religion are opposed to each other.

 

Do your own research. Abiogenesis has been demonstrated as naturally possible. All steps theoretically necessary have been shown in the lab to be possible.

 

Well you are sure sounding snippy on this. From what I can gather it has not much evolved beyond amino acids and such. The idea behind it is interesting though. I could not find much on it though newer than 2006. I don't think it will hold up to a source for cration though.So once again if you know of something newer a reference would be nice. No need to be snippy.

 

You don't know what open minded means. I'm willing to convert to your religion as soon as you give me evidence of it's truth - that's open minded. On the contrary you will never accept any evidence against your religion and your God is an unfalsifiable hypothesis - that's close minded.

Why do things evolve? Evolution is based on variation in population + natural selection + time. This is a straightforward logical theory and the only premise is variation in population, which is self-evident, and ample time. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old, so the time premise is already proven.

 

I don't know what kind of proof you are looking for but I doubt that I could provide it for you. All I can do is pray that God reveals himself to you.

 

Are you kidding? You must be insane if you actually agreed with me saying that we should teach every creation myth as an option.

 

Nope not insane. Yes kidding. Though it would make for a entertaining class room.

 

That science is correct has nothing to do with my belief in God. I no longer subscribe to a belief in God because there is no empirical evidence to support the supernatural claims made in texts like the bible or the Quran. Unless empirical evidence is provided the belief is based purely on faith. With this understood I then came to further realize that there were many things which went against my beliefs which I had previously ignored, making my "god" unfalsifiable. I had come to accept evolution, for example, but rather than questioning the Quran thought that perhaps the Quranic stories were metaphors. This kind of thinking was obviously not a good way to get to learn truth.

 

What is wrong with faith? Since science is not why you don't believe in God. What about archeological digs that are unearthing cities and such that are described in the locations like sodom and gomorah. Well you don't need to answer this it is another thread probably. As you are the OP it is at your discression.

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As a side note would you consider Eucharistic Miricals and evidence of God?

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It was a current event I read about a state senator in Mississippi that wants to pass a law making it a fellony to spank ones one kid. The language was so vuage it was just stupid. But that is another subject.

Ggravity is theory and law I looked it up. When I was going through school it was taught as the law of gravity and as we know scientific law is the last step beond theory. As for evolution yes it has happened (i.e. frogs that will switch gender). Science has done many wonderful things and discovered many wonderful things. What I don't get is why people think science and religion are opposed to each other.

Well you are sure sounding snippy on this. From what I can gather it has not much evolved beyond amino acids and such. The idea behind it is interesting though. I could not find much on it though newer than 2006. I don't think it will hold up to a source for cration though.So once again if you know of something newer a reference would be nice. No need to be snippy.

I don't know what kind of proof you are looking for but I doubt that I could provide it for you. All I can do is pray that God reveals himself to you.

Nope not insane. Yes kidding. Though it would make for a entertaining class room.

What is wrong with faith? Since science is not why you don't believe in God. What about archeological digs that are unearthing cities and such that are described in the locations like sodom and gomorah. Well you don't need to answer this it is another thread probably. As you are the OP it is at your discression.

 

Like I said there is also a law for gravity because it is a mathematical quantification. That's why you see many laws in say, chemistry: Dalton's law of partial pressures, boyle's law, ideal gas law, etc. All of these are quantifying observed phenomena. Similarly, the law of gravitation is a mathematical relationship.

 

If you want a more formal definition,

Law differs from a scientific theory in that it does not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: it is merely a distillation of the results of repeated observation. As such, a law is limited in applicability to circumstances resembling those already observed, and is often found to be false when extrapolated.

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Scientific_law"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Scientific_law[/url]

 

You seem to think that law is somehow higher up in some hierarchy than theory, but as has been demonstrated already this is clearly false. There is no "law" of evolution because nothing needs to be quantified.

 

I did not mean to sound snippy, I meant to encourage you to do your own research. Of course, you should only do unbiased research.

Again, even if we didn't know how the first cell came to be, it would not add an ounce of credibility to the God hypothesis.

 

Science and religion SHOULD not be opposed to each other, but they are. If a religious book says literal creation and science says evolution, then they are opposed to each other. If a religious book says literal magic then they are opposed to each other. Such problems arise when we only think in terms of literal interpretations. Of course, the books may be metaphorical - this belongs in the "Quran Interpretation" thread by me.

 

I don't care if old cities are being dug up similar to cities described. It does not add credibility to the events that are claimed to have happened there. Spiderman takes place in New York. New York is a real place! Should this add credibility to Spiderman?

 

 

As a side note would you consider Eucharistic Miricals and evidence of God?

 

No I would not. All religions claim to have miracles. We can either look for a good explanation for all of them (psychology) or we could believe one and discredit the rest.

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No I would not. All religions claim to have miracles. We can either look for a good explanation for all of them (psychology) or we could believe one and discredit the rest.

 

Hmmmmmm. I asked that because the vatican tends to use science to verify what is happening. It is taken very seriously because of fradulent claims. I will respond latter to the rest off to work.

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What accounts for most of the growth of most religions is that children grow up to follow what their parents indoctrinated them to believe. Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion? If Islam really is a true religion, why not just make the child have an open mind? This way, when the child grows up he will end up accepting the evidence for Islam anyway because, at least according to you, it is the truth. Why should it be necessary at all to indoctrinate the child by telling him the one true God is Allah, or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Apollo, or whatever. The evidence should be easily accessible and acceptable. Are people scared that their children will end up not following their religion? Why would that be, if their religion really is true?

 

I would rather "indoctrinate" my children with Islam than leave them to be indoctrinated by society. There is a debate titled "Can We Live Better Lives Without Religion", I haven't watched it so I can't comment on it but I will watch it when I have some time insha'Allaah (God willing).

 

 

If you believe something to be right then of course you will try and pass those beliefs onto your children. If I genuinely believe that God exists then it is my responsibility to pass on that information to my children... just like you would probably encourage your children not to believe. Regardless of all of this, at the end of the day one cannot be forced to believe, which is why I personally wouldn't use the word "indoctrinated", you can indoctrinate all you like, your children will have decisions to make in their lives and go through experiences which will lead them to either believe, or disbelieve.

 

Also, from my experience many of those who reverted/converted to Islam are more religiously committed than those who were simply born into Muslim families... and that wasn't through any "brainwashing" rather it was through seeking the truth for themselves.

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What accounts for most of the growth of most religions is that children grow up to follow what their parents indoctrinated them to believe. Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion? If Islam really is a true religion, why not just make the child have an open mind? This way, when the child grows up he will end up accepting the evidence for Islam anyway because, at least according to you, it is the truth. Why should it be necessary at all to indoctrinate the child by telling him the one true God is Allah, or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Apollo, or whatever. The evidence should be easily accessible and acceptable. Are people scared that their children will end up not following their religion? Why would that be, if their religion really is true?

 

To teach your child the religion of Islam is not a bad thing at all, the child once an adult has the right to choose wheter or not Islam is for them. However as a child what else are you going to teach the child as far as morals and living a good life if you your self is a Muslim. It is necessary to tell the child that the true God is Allah and teach them the religion. If what is taught is false the child once an adult will reject it however thats not the case. Think of how you grew up you was indoctrinated with the belief that that was your mother and that that was your family all bros sis and cousins and all but have you once considered that hey i might be adopted maybe this isnt my real family. No you believe in what was told to you unless something else with strong evidence proves otherwise.

 

Muslims have and teach their children to have an open mind if not then why the heck do they send them to universities?? Public schools ect ect. If you as an atheist is comfortable with your atheism then you should teach your child to be a rejecter of God and a rejecter of religion which is in fact close minded teachings and is an indoctrination into close mindedness.

 

2nd you said make the child have an open mind, you cannot make a child have an open mind you can teach them what it is like to have an open mind but you cannot force them an Islam teaches childern to have an open mind.

 

3rd atheisim doesnt offer a child to have an open mind at all, if a parent who is an atheist has a child who goes to school and starts to say hey daddy i believe there is a God then you can be sure that the parent will try their best to show and tell the child that God does not exist.

 

4th Islam means peace and is a way of LIFE.. atheism means rejection of belief in God, Islam starts off by opening up the childs eyes to God and spiritual life an to learn and study the earth atheisim restrics the child to just the earth and thats it.

which indoctrination is better.... i 'll choose Islam any day, heck id choose christianity and judaisim any day over being a rejecter from the start.

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What accounts for most of the growth of most religions is that children grow up to follow what their parents indoctrinated them to believe. Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion? If Islam really is a true religion, why not just make the child have an open mind? This way, when the child grows up he will end up accepting the evidence for Islam anyway because, at least according to you, it is the truth. Why should it be necessary at all to indoctrinate the child by telling him the one true God is Allah, or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Apollo, or whatever. The evidence should be easily accessible and acceptable. Are people scared that their children will end up not following their religion? Why would that be, if their religion really is true?

 

 

Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion?

 

 

this is highest level of ignorance , and not knowing what Islam really teaches, THAT IS WHY YOU ARE ATHEISTS , THAT IS WHY YOU ARE WITHOUT GUIDENCE FROM GOD

 

I LET GOD TO ANSWER YOU FROM QURAN Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion...

 

 

THIS IS WHY..

 

GOD SAYS IN QURAN:

 

17:23-24 Your Lord has commanded that you should worship none but Him, and that you be kind to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say no word that shows impatience with them, and do not be harsh with them, but speak to them respectfully

and lower your wing in humility towards them in kindness and say, ‘Lord, have mercy on them, just as they cared for me when I was little.’

 

 

BUT HEY, 'atheism101 DONT WANT HIS CHILDREN TO BE INDOCTRINATE WITH SUCH IDOLOGY,

 

LET THEM HAVE FUN, LET THEM DO WHAT THEY WANT...BUT IF SOMETHING TURNS UPSIDE DOWN, LIKE IF YOU CHILDREN BACOME, ALCOHOLIC, DRUG DILER,S RAPERS, MURDERS, LIARS, OR THAT THEY DONT RESPECT YOU AND YOUR WIFE, THEN YOU SHOULD WRITE DOWN THIS ON PAPER AND READ IT EVERY NIGHT BEFORE YOU SLEEP, SO YOU KNOW WHY YOU ARE WRONG AND YOUR ATHEISTIC IDEOLOGY WICH IS HARMTO YOU AND YOU DONT EVEN REALISE IT...

 

Father and son (video that will run your feelings) MUST SEE

Edited by andalusi

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Hmmmmmm. I asked that because the vatican tends to use science to verify what is happening. It is taken very seriously because of fradulent claims. I will respond latter to the rest off to work.

 

Just like "science" that young earth creationists cite to support a universe that is 6000 years old?

 

I would rather "indoctrinate" my children with Islam than leave them to be indoctrinated by society. There is a debate titled "Can We Live Better Lives Without Religion", I haven't watched it so I can't comment on it but I will watch it when I have some time insha'Allaah (God willing).

 

...

 

If you believe something to be right then of course you will try and pass those beliefs onto your children. If I genuinely believe that God exists then it is my responsibility to pass on that information to my children... just like you would probably encourage your children not to believe. Regardless of all of this, at the end of the day one cannot be forced to believe, which is why I personally wouldn't use the word "indoctrinated", you can indoctrinate all you like, your children will have decisions to make in their lives and go through experiences which will lead them to either believe, or disbelieve.

 

Also, from my experience many of those who reverted/converted to Islam are more religiously committed than those who were simply born into Muslim families... and that wasn't through any "brainwashing" rather it was through seeking the truth for themselves.

 

You are presenting it as if the only two options are to be indoctrinated by you or be indoctrinated by society. First of all I think being indoctrinated by society is an absurd idea. But even if it was a dangerous threat, you could easily teach your child to think rationally. It's not that hard.

 

NO, I would NOT encourage my children not to believe. I would not indoctrinate them in any direction. I would tell them to be rational, and to not accept anything without evidence.

Obviously an indoctrinated child is much more likely to follow what they were indoctrinated into rather than make any sort of rational decision. Religion calls for faith over reason, so there is no way you could say that telling your child that faith is better than reason will still lead your child to end up value reason over faith. Indoctrination means forcing a belief without evidence - so I don't care if you don't use the word "indoctrinated", you are indoctrinating.

 

Converts have nothing to do with the effect of indoctrination.

 

To teach your child the religion of Islam is not a bad thing at all, the child once an adult has the right to choose wheter or not Islam is for them. However as a child what else are you going to teach the child as far as morals and living a good life if you your self is a Muslim. It is necessary to tell the child that the true God is Allah and teach them the religion. If what is taught is false the child once an adult will reject it however thats not the case. Think of how you grew up you was indoctrinated with the belief that that was your mother and that that was your family all bros sis and cousins and all but have you once considered that hey i might be adopted maybe this isnt my real family. No you believe in what was told to you unless something else with strong evidence proves otherwise.

Muslims have and teach their children to have an open mind if not then why the heck do they send them to universities?? Public schools ect ect. If you as an atheist is comfortable with your atheism then you should teach your child to be a rejecter of God and a rejecter of religion which is in fact close minded teachings and is an indoctrination into close mindedness.

2nd you said make the child have an open mind, you cannot make a child have an open mind you can teach them what it is like to have an open mind but you cannot force them an Islam teaches childern to have an open mind.

3rd atheisim doesnt offer a child to have an open mind at all, if a parent who is an atheist has a child who goes to school and starts to say hey daddy i believe there is a God then you can be sure that the parent will try their best to show and tell the child that God does not exist.

4th Islam means peace and is a way of LIFE.. atheism means rejection of belief in God, Islam starts off by opening up the childs eyes to God and spiritual life an to learn and study the earth atheisim restrics the child to just the earth and thats it.

which indoctrination is better.... i 'll choose Islam any day, heck id choose christianity and judaisim any day over being a rejecter from the start.

 

What about "indoctrination" do you not understand? Sure they have the RIGHT to choose, but more often than not they will remain with what they had been forced into believing as a child.

You can teach your child to be rational, and to not believe anything without evidence. You imply without religion there is no morality - that's absurd. But even if it were true, you could easily teach your child moral values without forcing faith down their throats.

 

What you just said is a perfect example of the dangers of indoctrination. Christians find it necessary to teach children that the true God is the trinity. You believe Christianity is false. According to your theory then, once an adult a Christian will reject Christianity. There should be no Christians (or very few) if what you are saying has any truth. Why is Christianity the largest religion in the world, then?

No I was not "indoctrinated" with the belief that my family is related to me. This is actually based on evidence. Indoctrination calls for belief without evidence. Plus even if I was adopted, my parents would not be telling me that they are my biological parents - that, if anything, would be something you could consider for indoctrination (though it's not). That I would interpret my family to be biological has nothing to do with what my parents would have told me. So this example makes no sense. So it's absolute nonsense to say Islam teaches open-mindedness. It is perhaps the most close-minded religion on the face of this planet.

 

I already stated that I wouldn't force my child into disbelief. I would tell my children to accept only if sufficient evidence was given.

You do not know what it means to be open-minded. If you take a look at my thread "Proof that the Quran is the word of God" it will be clear that Muslims will not accept ANYTHING as evidence that they are wrong. That's close-minded. On the contrary I will accept evidence even if it goes against what I believe. That's why I accepted evolution when I believed otherwise. That's why I declined magic when I believed otherwise. And that's why I ultimately left Islam even when I didn't want to. That's what open-minded is.

 

Your third point has been stated about 3 times already. I would not teach my child that God doesn't exist, I would teach my child that they should not accept anything without evidence. If a child told me that they were a theist, guess what? I WOULD ACCEPT THAT. I wouldn't ostracize them, disown them, etc as religious parents will do if their child deconverts from their religion (surely my family will do that if they ever find out). I would surely be interested to know about what evidence evaded me, but I wouldn't force my child into disbelieving.

Your 4th point is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with indoctrination. Let alone it doesn't demonstrate why one thing is good while the other is bad.

Your last statement is just ridiculous. If you really do think Islam is the truth you would find it much easier to go from atheist to Muslim than a different religion to Muslim - that's the negative result of indoctrination.

 

this is highest level of ignorance , and not knowing what Islam really teaches, THAT IS WHY YOU ARE ATHEISTS , THAT IS WHY YOU ARE WITHOUT GUIDENCE FROM GOD

 

I LET GOD TO ANSWER YOU FROM QURAN Why is it okay to indoctrinate a child with religion...

THIS IS WHY..

 

GOD SAYS IN QURAN:

 

17:23-24 Your Lord has commanded that you should worship none but Him, and that you be kind to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say no word that shows impatience with them, and do not be harsh with them, but speak to them respectfully

and lower your wing in humility towards them in kindness and say, ‘Lord, have mercy on them, just as they cared for me when I was little.’

BUT HEY, 'atheism101 DONT WANT HIS CHILDREN TO BE INDOCTRINATE WITH SUCH IDOLOGY,

 

LET THEM HAVE FUN, LET THEM DO WHAT THEY WANT...BUT IF SOMETHING TURNS UPSIDE DOWN, LIKE IF YOU CHILDREN BACOME, ALCOHOLIC, DRUG DILER,S RAPERS, MURDERS, LIARS, OR THAT THEY DONT RESPECT YOU AND YOUR WIFE, THEN YOU SHOULD WRITE DOWN THIS ON PAPER AND READ IT EVERY NIGHT BEFORE YOU SLEEP, SO YOU KNOW WHY YOU ARE WRONG AND YOUR ATHEISTIC IDEOLOGY WICH IS HARMTO YOU AND YOU DONT EVEN REALISE IT...

 

Father and son (video that will run your feelings) MUST SEE

...

 

This deserves a new thread regarding morality. It is ABSOLUTELY absurd that you think atheism means lack of morality. Atheists have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Why? Because they make their decisions based on rational thought. There is no causal way that atheism could lead to crime. On the contrary, faith could more easily lead to crime. Take suicide bombing for example. Would people kill themselves in suicide bombings were it not for faith, were they to think rationally? Of course not.

Secondly, even if you somehow thought atheism meant crime...you can very easily teach morality without forcing faith down your children's throats.

If you want to talk about morality, I will be making a new thread and you can give your opinions there.

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NO, I would NOT encourage my children not to believe. I would not indoctrinate them in any direction. I would tell them to be rational, and to not accept anything without evidence.

 

That is still indoctrination. Children follow their parents, so of course your beliefs/lack of belief will be forced on them, even if that wasn't your intention.

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That is still indoctrination. Children follow their parents, so of course your beliefs/lack of belief will be forced on them, even if that wasn't your intention.

 

Perhaps you are under the impression that you are allowed to define words. The following is the definition of the word "indoctrination":

teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically (wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)

ndoctrination is the process of ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine). It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned (wikipedia)

Teach or persuade (a person or group) to accept certain ideas or beliefs without questioning them in any way. (bbc.co.uk)

 

In case you ever need help understanding the meaning of a word again, you can similar websites to look at their definitions. This may take a little more work as compared to making up definitions, but I assure you it will be worth a few of your valuable seconds.

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