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Ron Shirt

What If Allah Evolves?

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What if God evolves? An interesting question perhaps.

 

I've seen a lot of things written - what are often really no more than opinions - about the nature of Allah or God. Now, given that man has 'free will', how do we know that God doesn't Himself evolve and change as time passes? Some kind of interaction seems to take place - through prayer and possibly through the divine presence 'monitoring' humanity's activities, that perhaps God Himself is flexible enough to modify His knowledge through His interaction with first, the universe and second, mankind (presumably including other alien species). In fact this has been touched upon in this forum where it has been mentioned that prophets produce an appropiote message for each diferrent age. Therefore this must mean that God is in a state of intimate awareness with ourselves. Thus it isn't unreasonable to say that a two-way process is going on.

 

Isn't this a possibility?

 

 

 

Salaam,

 

ron

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What if God evolves? An interesting question perhaps.

 

I've seen a lot of things written - what are often really no more than opinions - about the nature of Allah or God. Now, given that man has 'free will', how do we know that God doesn't Himself evolve and change as time passes? Some kind of interaction seems to take place - through prayer and possibly through the divine presence 'monitoring' humanity's activities, that perhaps God Himself is flexible enough to modify His knowledge through His interaction with first, the universe and second, mankind (presumably including other alien species). In fact this has been touched upon in this forum where it has been mentioned that prophets produce an appropiote message for each diferrent age. Therefore this must mean that God is in a state of intimate awareness with ourselves. Thus it isn't unreasonable to say that a two-way process is going on.

 

Isn't this a possibility?

Salaam,

 

ron

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Lol, how can God "evolve" when He's perfect?

 

"He is Allah, besides Whom there is no god; the King, the Holy, the Giver of peace, the Granter of security, Guardian over all, the Mighty, the Supreme, the Possessor of every greatness, Glory be to Allah from what they set up (with Him)." [Quran 59:23]

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I believe I may have been one of those who has discussed the adaptation of the Divine Message to fit the needs and capacities of each people, at each age. Despite the Message changing, I believe the evolution is a product of the evolution of people, of the entirety of mankind. It is not a product of an evolving God. As the prior person posted, God is simply perfection. At best, you can say God is also perfectly adaptable. :sl:

 

Now the question was, what if? Well, if it were, well the Messages would definitely be different. Right?

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I believe I may have been one of those who has discussed the adaptation of the Divine Message to fit the needs and capacities of each people, at each age. Despite the Message changing, I believe the evolution is a product of the evolution of people, of the entirety of mankind. It is not a product of an evolving God. As the prior person posted, God is simply perfection. At best, you can say God is also perfectly adaptable. :sl:

 

Now the question was, what if? Well, if it were, well the Messages would definitely be different. Right?

 

 

Well it seems to me that you along with many others, seem to have a fairly clear idea of what God is actually like. How do you know what is consitutued in that one word 'God'? Maybe he has a hidden side - an absolutely unknown essence, perhaps known only to Himself. Maybe he has manifest and changing aspects.

God may only be perfect in His finality. (God may be perfect only at the end of time). God may be perfect at all times and for all people. etc etc

 

It always amazes me what little imagination human beings seem to posses. Especially when they have a supernatural leader and Holy book to guide them!

 

ron

 

PS You've already said that the messges change

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What if God evolves? An interesting question perhaps.

 

I've seen a lot of things written - what are often really no more than opinions - about the nature of Allah or God. Now, given that man has 'free will', how do we know that God doesn't Himself evolve and change as time passes? Some kind of interaction seems to take place - through prayer and possibly through the divine presence 'monitoring' humanity's activities, that perhaps God Himself is flexible enough to modify His knowledge through His interaction with first, the universe and second, mankind (presumably including other alien species). In fact this has been touched upon in this forum where it has been mentioned that prophets produce an appropiote message for each diferrent age. Therefore this must mean that God is in a state of intimate awareness with ourselves. Thus it isn't unreasonable to say that a two-way process is going on.

 

Isn't this a possibility?

 

Yes God an no….. in the the Quran is called the Gaurdian Evolver of all the systems of knowledge, look at the first chapter and the second verse it can be innturpreted as The praise belongs to Allah, the

Guardian Evolver of all the systems of

knowledge

God evolves and protects all the systems or branches of knowledge. He evolves knowledge by evolving creation and guiding humanity to constantly discover it. And He protects knowledge by inspiring those with insight to find it and share it.

 

So God is the gaurdian evolver but He is above evolution.

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Evolution means there is room for growth or improvement. Allah is perfect.

 

Salam.

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Yes God an no….. in the the Quran is called the Gaurdian Evolver of all the systems of knowledge, look at the first chapter and the second verse it can be innturpreted as The praise belongs to Allah, the

Guardian Evolver of all the systems of

knowledge

God evolves and protects all the systems or branches of knowledge. He evolves knowledge by evolving creation and guiding humanity to constantly discover it. And He protects knowledge by inspiring those with insight to find it and share it.

 

So God is the gaurdian evolver but He is above evolution.

 

 

Yes, very interesting. I was trying to get at people's individual concepts of the Almighty.

I see that you do not mention the actual verse of the Quran that you are quoting, or are you saying that the first chapter and second verse are the ones to look at?

 

I see that you conclude by saying that 'God is the guardian evolver, but he is above creation'. Where does this come from, as a dogmatic statement, I wonder? It does seem to sound quite novel and has a resonance, at least for me personally as a very possible statement of truth. Or are you playing with me?

 

regards,

 

ron

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Yes, very interesting. I was trying to get at people's individual concepts of the Almighty.

I see that you do not mention the actual verse of the Quran that you are quoting, or are you saying that the first chapter and second verse are the ones to look at?

 

I see that you conclude by saying that 'God is the guardian evolver, but he is above creation'. Where does this come from, as a dogmatic statement, I wonder? It does seem to sound quite novel and has a resonance, at least for me personally as a very possible statement of truth. Or are you playing with me?

 

regards,

 

ron

 

 

Yes chapter 1 verse 2.

 

Yes that statement is from the study of Islam ...lol no im not just playing with you.

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Yes chapter 1 verse 2.

 

Yes that statement is from the study of Islam ...lol no im not just playing with you.

 

 

Not very helpful then, all round I'd say.

 

 

ron

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Not very helpful then, all round I'd say.

ron

Yes it is meant for all round as well, when speaking about God being the evolver.

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Yes it is meant for all round as well, when speaking about God being the evolver.

 

 

Sorry but can you explain?

 

 

ron

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Sorry but can you explain?

ron

 

what is it excatly that your not understanding? or what is it that you think im saying, it could be that we are in agreement. so what is it that you see

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what is it excatly that your not understanding? or what is it that you think im saying, it could be that we are in agreement. so what is it that you see

 

 

I don't understand your position regarding my hypothesis. I can't understand anything that you've said so far.

I'm just making a suggestion that there is a possibility (to my mind) that God exists - at least in one way - in a state of constant flux in terms of the relationship He has with, not only the human race, but with all of creation, i.e. the universe.

 

 

regards,

 

ron

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I don't understand your position regarding my hypothesis. I can't understand anything that you've said so far.

I'm just making a suggestion that there is a possibility (to my mind) that God exists - at least in one way - in a state of constant flux in terms of the relationship He has with, not only the human race, but with all of creation, i.e. the universe.

regards,

 

ron

 

 

Sorry, I think there's been some confusion here. I was wondering what the exact quote from the Qur'an was and the actual verses you mentioned. It really says 'God the evolver'?

 

regards,

 

ron

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Evolution means there is room for growth or improvement. Allah is perfect.

 

Salam.

 

 

He may only be perfect at this moment in time. Perhaps this statement is true for all eternity.

 

regards,

 

ron

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Sorry, I think there's been some confusion here. I was wondering what the exact quote from the Qur'an was and the actual verses you mentioned. It really says 'God the evolver'?

 

regards,

 

ron

 

 

YES AS STATED IN MY POST NUMBER 6, IN THE FIRST CHAPTER IN THE QURAN THE SECOND VERSE.

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YES AS STATED IN MY POST NUMBER 6, IN THE FIRST CHAPTER IN THE QURAN THE SECOND VERSE.

 

 

Yes, but you didn't give the exact quote, so far as I'm aware and as I don't have a Qur'an to hand I am not able to see for myself.

 

 

Salaam,

 

ron

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Yes, but you didn't give the exact quote, so far as I'm aware and as I don't have a Qur'an to hand I am not able to see for myself.

Salaam,

 

ron

 

 

 

I did give you the excat qoute here it is again

 

chapter 1 verse 2

 

The praise belongs to Allah, the

Guardian Evolver of all the systems of

knowledge

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I did give you the excat qoute here it is again

 

chapter 1 verse 2

 

The praise belongs to Allah, the

Guardian Evolver of all the systems of

knowledge

 

 

OK, thanks. The problem was in the way you presented the verse in question, I think. Most people seem to post direct quotes from the Qur'an in a more formal fashion: e.g. :

 

1. Respect and honour all human beings irrespective of their religion, color, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job and so on [17/70]

 

Anyway, all of this is irellevant.

I am amazed that Allah is called "the Guardian evolver". Especially as many Muslims seem quite adament that the idea of 'evolution' is at best highly suspect and at worst impossible to conceive.

This verse seems to convey a lot. "All systems of knowledge" ! Incredible!

But then isn't this simple statement contradicted many times over later on in the book? The supposed instantaneous creation of Adam for example and the 'eternal perfection' of Allah - however this is to be interpreted in a philosophical sense.

 

Thanks,

 

ron

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OK, thanks. The problem was in the way you presented the verse in question, I think. Most people seem to post direct quotes from the Qur'an in a more formal fashion: e.g. :

 

1. Respect and honour all human beings irrespective of their religion, color, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job and so on [17/70]

 

Anyway, all of this is irellevant.

I am amazed that Allah is called "the Guardian evolver". Especially as many Muslims seem quite adament that the idea of 'evolution' is at best highly suspect and at worst impossible to conceive.

This verse seems to convey a lot. "All systems of knowledge" ! Incredible!

But then isn't this simple statement contradicted many times over later on in the book? The supposed instantaneous creation of Adam for example and the 'eternal perfection' of Allah - however this is to be interpreted in a philosophical sense.

 

Thanks,

 

ron

 

No Ron it is not contradicted at all, you see the Quran is a books explain how to live as a human community and a way of life for the development of the human person and the human community. When looking at the creation of Adam from another point of view, Adam does not represent 1 man, Adam represents a mind, a leadership body and his wife which is eve represents a community for the leadership. Adam is an awakened man (leadership)with knowledge of God an how to evolve into the best human community that God wants established on this earth.

 

The story of Adam and eve is a story of how a community and its leadership fall when they do not work together and have consultation. If leaders act with out asking and seeking advice from the community that is dictatorship and it will soon fall. The tree that the leadership and its community took from was the tree of knowledge..scriptural knowledge. Once they done that they was naked and tried to cover themselves with the leaves of the tree or the leaves of paradise.

 

This is saying that once a leadership and its community disobeys God an tries to take from scriptural knowledge or take scripture and do it with out the help or guidance of God then they will fall. That’s why they saw themselves as naked not naked as in no clothes but they lost their clothing of righteousness and righteousness is the best dress. You might say well how do u get the tree meaning scripture, well what do they call the paper that we write on in our school notebooks…its called loose leaf right. So the instantaneous creation is not a creation like we may want to see, it has way more deeper meaning more so than this little bit that I have given.

 

Even in the bible God says in

Gen 5 :2 male and female created he them and blessed them and called their names Adam in the day when they were created
..

 

this shows a community of people not a 1 person he called THEM Adam

 

As far as eternal perfection of Allah there is a phrase in Arabic that says Allah u akbar which means God is greater, meaning that what ever you think about God He is greater than that. So if the question is asked does God have eternal perfection we say that God is greater than eternal perfection, He is greater than that. If we start to try to describe other than what He himself describes Himself as then that is like taking knowledge from a tree that we really don’t know much about.

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No Ron it is not contradicted at all, you see the Quran is a books explain how to live as a human community and a way of life for the development of the human person and the human community. When looking at the creation of Adam from another point of view, Adam does not represent 1 man, Adam represents a mind, a leadership body and his wife which is eve represents a community for the leadership. Adam is an awakened man (leadership)with knowledge of God an how to evolve into the best human community that God wants established on this earth.

 

The story of Adam and eve is a story of how a community and its leadership fall when they do not work together and have consultation. If leaders act with out asking and seeking advice from the community that is dictatorship and it will soon fall. The tree that the leadership and its community took from was the tree of knowledge..scriptural knowledge. Once they done that they was naked and tried to cover themselves with the leaves of the tree or the leaves of paradise.

 

This is saying that once a leadership and its community disobeys God an tries to take from scriptural knowledge or take scripture and do it with out the help or guidance of God then they will fall. That’s why they saw themselves as naked not naked as in no clothes but they lost their clothing of righteousness and righteousness is the best dress. You might say well how do u get the tree meaning scripture, well what do they call the paper that we write on in our school notebooks…its called loose leaf right. So the instantaneous creation is not a creation like we may want to see, it has way more deeper meaning more so than this little bit that I have given.

 

Even in the bible God says in ..

 

this shows a community of people not a 1 person he called THEM Adam

 

As far as eternal perfection of Allah there is a phrase in Arabic that says Allah u akbar which means God is greater, meaning that what ever you think about God He is greater than that. So if the question is asked does God have eternal perfection we say that God is greater than eternal perfection, He is greater than that. If we start to try to describe other than what He himself describes Himself as then that is like taking knowledge from a tree that we really don’t know much about.

 

 

Thanks for this. I've not seen such an in depth and allegorical illustration of the signifigence of Adam and his wife before. It makes sense to me, particularly as Adam representing a mind, an awakened man. This would be a representaion , indeed, of the first fully human person. I don't have any problem with that either as a symbolic representation or as an actual 'evolutionary step'.

Being a logical sort of a person, however I cannot accept that Adam was simply created overnight, as it were, out of nothing but dust or clay. Life begets life surely.

I can see a balance between accepting the story of Adam purely literally and understanding the meaning behind (literally true or not) it.

 

I have alway understood that 'Allah u akbar' means 'God is greatest' which I suppose is the same as saying that He is always greater.

The other problem I have with your original quotation from the Qur'an 1st Chapter 2nd verse which you say "can be interpreted" as "The praise belongs to Allah, the

Guardian Evolver of all the systems of knowledge".

Perhaps you can tell me which translation (or other version) of the Qur'an you have been using because I haven't been able to see any version which uses the word 'guradian or evolver', so far.

 

Thanks,

 

ron

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Thanks for this. I've not seen such an in depth and allegorical illustration of the signifigence of Adam and his wife before. It makes sense to me, particularly as Adam representing a mind, an awakened man. This would be a representaion , indeed, of the first fully human person. I don't have any problem with that either as a symbolic representation or as an actual 'evolutionary step'.

Being a logical sort of a person, however I cannot accept that Adam was simply created overnight, as it were, out of nothing but dust or clay. Life begets life surely.

I can see a balance between accepting the story of Adam purely literally and understanding the meaning behind (literally true or not) it.

 

I have alway understood that 'Allah u akbar' means 'God is greatest' which I suppose is the same as saying that He is always greater.

The other problem I have with your original quotation from the Qur'an 1st Chapter 2nd verse which you say "can be interpreted" as "The praise belongs to Allah, the

Guardian Evolver of all the systems of knowledge".

Perhaps you can tell me which translation (or other version) of the Qur'an you have been using because I haven't been able to see any version which uses the word 'guradian or evolver', so far.

 

Thanks,

 

ron

 

The word in Arabic for this verse is ..rabb bil ala meen, Rabb means is translated as Lord, however it also means gauardian, caretaker,owner, master , ruler, controller, sustainer, provider. Now you may find some translations that will use either one of these however when reading the Arabic it conveys a message more than that of a simple translation, and the translator who is a great scholar gives his best translation that makes it easy for the ready to grasp what it being said.

 

However we are encouraged to study the Arabic to tyr to get the full meaning of what is being said. So Rabb means Gaurdian, u might see it translated as “praise to Allah Lord of the worlds†But the same word for lord also has vast meanings. Now to say Lord of the worlds is the same as saying Gaurdian evolver of all systems of knowledge. The next word Alameen means one who is learned or one who knows, aka system of knowledge. Once one starts studying the Arabic language this understanding comes while reading, also you can check Arabic dictionarys as well and see what I am saying.

 

 

so i dont know which traslation u will find it in however im sure that if you have or study arabic you will see what im saying, or even take it to a local masjid in your area and the can help u as well

 

Being a logical sort of a person, however I cannot accept that Adam was simply created overnight, as it were, out of nothing but dust or clay. quote]

 

Dust is something scattred all over the place, clay is something that can be molded, man was like dust ..all over the place, when man became awakened he came together like clay. A good example of this is looking at babies, while babies is in their input stage they are like dust if you was to teach the baby curse words then you would be forming their mind like clay, and clay is impressionable . So the dust will come together and become something, however I see what your saying as an overnight creation. Even God says that a day to Him is like 1000 of our years so with that being said if adam was made in a day then he was formed in 1000 years so that hardly would agree with people saying 1 day lol.

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The word in Arabic for this verse is ..rabb bil ala meen, Rabb means is translated as Lord, however it also means gauardian, caretaker,owner, master , ruler, controller, sustainer, provider. Now you may find some translations that will use either one of these however when reading the Arabic it conveys a message more than that of a simple translation, and the translator who is a great scholar gives his best translation that makes it easy for the ready to grasp what it being said.

 

However we are encouraged to study the Arabic to tyr to get the full meaning of what is being said. So Rabb means Gaurdian, u might see it translated as "praise to Allah Lord of the worlds" But the same word for lord also has vast meanings. Now to say Lord of the worlds is the same as saying Gaurdian evolver of all systems of knowledge. The next word Alameen means one who is learned or one who knows, aka system of knowledge. Once one starts studying the Arabic language this understanding comes while reading, also you can check Arabic dictionarys as well and see what I am saying.

 

 

so i dont know which traslation u will find it in however im sure that if you have or study arabic you will see what im saying, or even take it to a local masjid in your area and the can help u as well

 

Being a logical sort of a person, however I cannot accept that Adam was simply created overnight, as it were, out of nothing but dust or clay. quote]

 

Dust is something scattred all over the place, clay is something that can be molded, man was like dust ..all over the place, when man became awakened he came together like clay. A good example of this is looking at babies, while babies is in their input stage they are like dust if you was to teach the baby curse words then you would be forming their mind like clay, and clay is impressionable . So the dust will come together and become something, however I see what your saying as an overnight creation. Even God says that a day to Him is like 1000 of our years so with that being said if adam was made in a day then he was formed in 1000 years so that hardly would agree with people saying 1 day lol.

 

" Rabb means is translated as Lord, however it also means gauardian, caretaker,owner, master , ruler, controller, sustainer, provider."

 

I've only known the word Rabb translated as 'Lord' previously.

But in spite of what various people say regarding the Arabic language being very expressive, my impression has so far been that it is rather vague and imprecise in the way it is used and in the way that the words translate into English. I hope this won't offend any Arab speakers here, but compared to English (or German for example which is rather precise) this seems to me to be so.

The words you mention nearly all have more or less subtle diferrences in English, with the exceptions of lord, master and ruler. Furthermore none of them seem to have translated as 'Evolver'. I was wondering if there was such a concept as 'evolution' 1400 years ago. I suppose, however that there must have been a word which would translate as 'developer', but I rather doubt that evolution as appicable to the development of species and of homo sapiens would have been known, at least generally.

 

I see what you are saying regarding the creation of Adam and the time element, so maybe I'm wrong about evolution not being known, as a concept, at that time in history, or is this your own idea?

 

I would be interested in reading any books written at the approximate time that the Qur'an was written, especially those which refer to any commentary on society at that time. Maybe this is too much to hope for however.

 

Regards,

 

ron

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One of the topics I wanted to discuss with good Muslims is related to this thread.

What do you all think about Reform Islam?

Judaism and Christianity both have seen major changes, which I believe have made those religions more relevant. But Islam doesn't change its tenants, so many Muslims just "bend the rules" as it were, and many of the real Fundamentalists are now seen as outlaws, beyond the main stream of the Faith.

I would welcome some candid thoughts about this idea, which I really hope doesn't offend. I don't mean to attack Islam, but the non-evolutionary nature of the religion is one thing that gives me pause, and, I think, bothers many others, too.

I took religion courses in my Ivy League college, and have enjoyed studying religion for years. I really do want to understand the world of my Muslim child and my three grandchildren.

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