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Why do religious people believe that without religion there is no morality? That's absolutely absurd. Rational human beings will not go out killing people if they find that there is no God. We should make decisions with other people in mind. If we are to live in healthy societies, rational people will understand why being mindful of others is vital. As Albert Einstein put it, "If we are only good to avoid punishment or to gain reward we are a sorry bunch indeed." Is the only reason you don't go out killing people or doing whatever you want just fear of punishment and/or anticipation of being rewarded? Are you REALLY a good person if that's all you care about?

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Why do religious people believe that without religion there is no morality? That's absolutely absurd. Rational human beings will not go out killing people if they find that there is no God. We should make decisions with other people in mind. If we are to live in healthy societies, rational people will understand why being mindful of others is vital. As Albert Einstein put it, "If we are only good to avoid punishment or to gain reward we are a sorry bunch indeed." Is the only reason you don't go out killing people or doing whatever you want just fear of punishment and/or anticipation of being rewarded? Are you REALLY a good person if that's all you care about?

who don't like a world without crimes, but how?

 

1- the Atheists will agree with the religious people to call many crimes as crimes, like the killing or stealing or leying,....., we will not differ too to take every convincing means to stop/minimize its rates. what we have to do if some one decided to commit a crime (that's the reality), kill your brother for instance, what to do for him?

 

2- what if that relation is right "as harsher the punishment, as lower the crimes rates". either to accept low punishments and very hight crimes' rates or harsh punishments and very low crimes' rates.

 

3- while i wonna know your opinion about (adultery before/after marriage, insest, homosexuality)? do all Atheists have the same opinion?

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Why do religious people believe that without religion there is no morality? That's absolutely absurd. Rational human beings will not go out killing people if they find that there is no God. We should make decisions with other people in mind. If we are to live in healthy societies, rational people will understand why being mindful of others is vital. As Albert Einstein put it, "If we are only good to avoid punishment or to gain reward we are a sorry bunch indeed." Is the only reason you don't go out killing people or doing whatever you want just fear of punishment and/or anticipation of being rewarded? Are you REALLY a good person if that's all you care about?

 

This is a straw man argument, who has claimed that in the absence of religion there is no morality? Who has said that the only reason we don't go out killing people or doing whatever is out of fear of punishment and/or anticipation of being rewarded? I never had the desire to go out and kill someone when I was a non-Muslim, and neither do I have that desire now, neither do the vast majority of human beings. However, what is moral and what is immoral differs from person to person, you may think it is perfectly fine to have sexual intercourse with your own mother, I don't. Being the rational and logical person that you are perhaps you could tell me whether having sexual intercourse with your own mother or your own sister is moral or immoral, and why. You mentioned in a previous thread that you would teach your children that they should not accept anything unless there is evidence, so where is the evidence that it is immoral to commit incest?

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who don't like a world without crimes, but how?

 

1- the Atheists will agree with the religious people to call many crimes as crimes, like the killing or stealing or leying,....., we will not differ too to take every convincing means to stop/minimize its rates. what we have to do if some one decided to commit a crime (that's the reality), kill your brother for instance, what to do for him?

 

2- what if that relation is right "as harsher the punishment, as lower the crimes rates". either to accept low punishments and very hight crimes' rates or harsh punishments and very low crimes' rates.

 

3- while i wonna know your opinion about (adultery before/after marriage, insest, homosexuality)? do all Atheists have the same opinion?

 

I had a little difficulty understanding what exactly you were asking, so please clarify if I misunderstand the questions.

 

1. Punish him. Jail him perhaps. The current law system in America, for example, works fine.

2. I don't see how this question is really relevant. I don't think that relationship is true. I think punishment is fine as long as it's not cruel. Stoning - no. Getting executed - in certain cases, if the criminal chooses death over extensive jail time, then perhaps.

3. Fornication, adultery and homosexuality are not crimes. I would be surprised if an atheist disagreed, mostly because the only criticism to these things comes from religion. This does not mean people should just go do adultery. People should respect marriage. Of course if both the husband and wife are okay with it I suppose it would be okay (of course you need to consider legal obligations such as child support). However, as far as running a society is concerned, these things are not crimes.

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This is a straw man argument, who has claimed that in the absence of religion there is no morality? Who has said that the only reason we don't go out killing people or doing whatever is out of fear of punishment and/or anticipation of being rewarded? I never had the desire to go out and kill someone when I was a non-Muslim, and neither do I have that desire now, neither do the vast majority of human beings. However, what is moral and what is immoral differs from person to person, you may think it is perfectly fine to have sexual intercourse with your own mother, I don't. Being the rational and logical person that you are perhaps you could tell me whether having sexual intercourse with your own mother or your own sister is moral or immoral, and why. You mentioned in a previous thread that you would teach your children that they should not accept anything unless there is evidence, so where is the evidence that it is immoral to commit incest?

No, it's not a straw man. If you go to my previous threads made on this very forum, MANY have said that without religion there is no morality. Take andalusi for example, in my thead "Why is Indoctrination Okay":

hitler, stalin, lenin wre atheists and killed milions of people,

 

HITLER WAS INSPIRED BY DARWINISM, WICH IS ATHEISTIC IDEOLOGY, YOU SHOULD LEARN MORE BEFORE YOU POST HERE...

 

Even if I said it is not "immoral" to commit incest, it is obviously unhealthy. That's at the very least the reason why it is frowned upon. Of course, there are other factors such as devaluing family relations.

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Even if I said it is not "immoral" to commit incest, it is obviously unhealthy. That's at the very least the reason why it is frowned upon. Of course, there are other factors such as devaluing family relations.

 

This statement alone is enough to expose your hypocrisy and double standards. You apply one way of thinking when it suits you and another when it doesn't. You sometimes use your intellect and reasoning, and other times you will act as if you are a robot... that's not being sincere in my opinion.

 

I'm sorry but you'll have to excuse me if I don't post in this thread or other threads of yours, it's just time consuming and we aren't getting anywhere.

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This statement alone is enough to expose your hypocrisy and double standards. You apply one way of thinking when it suits you and another when it doesn't. You sometimes use your intellect and reasoning, and other times you will act as if you are a robot... that's not being sincere in my opinion.

 

I'm sorry but you'll have to excuse me if I don't post in this thread or other threads of yours, it's just time consuming and we aren't getting anywhere.

 

What double standard did I use? How did I not use intellect and reason? I clearly stated that I could even say incest is not "immoral" and it would still be wrong. You have not responded to this point.

 

You post what you want when you want. I would recommend, though, that you do not back out simply because you fear I will get the upper hand.

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Even if I said it is not "immoral" to commit incest, it is obviously unhealthy. That's at the very least the reason why it is frowned upon. Of course, there are other factors such as devaluing family relations.

If you meant it is not healthy for the baby, then you can have an abortion, then?

 

Yasnov

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If you meant it is not healthy for the baby, then you can have an abortion, then?

 

Yasnov

 

That in turn would be dangerous to the mother.

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That in turn would be dangerous to the mother.

That's a far reaching thought from the atheists. Atheism's scripture prohibits the followers from using "protection", eh?

 

Yasnov

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That's a far reaching thought from the atheists. Atheism's scripture prohibits the followers from using "protection", eh?

 

Yasnov

 

What??

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Well, I applauded atheists for thinking so far ahead. You don't commit sexual relations with your own mother, or your own sister, because you don't want to have an unhealthy child later, despite of the fact that you can use protection (condom). But it seems that you think so far ahead, as condom is not always safe.

 

Yasnov

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I had a little difficulty understanding what exactly you were asking, so please clarify if I misunderstand the questions.

then you may need to learn Arabic English!!!

 

1. Punish him. Jail him perhaps. The current law system in America, for example, works fine.

in your opinion, how long the killer have to be jailed, will be fair?

 

2. I don't see how this question is really relevant. I don't think that relationship is true. I think punishment is fine as long as it's not cruel. Stoning - no. Getting executed - in certain cases, if the criminal chooses death over extensive jail time, then perhaps.

for those who have a specific nature (agressive, rebel, criminal) they will see such relation is ultimate right. in fact all the humanity saw it as a relevant relation, and they already appling it in the most important and critical sections in the society, in the Army, near the stratigic facilities. you know when ever you get near any nuclear power station or army unit, they will just shoot you down, and when ever you try to touch the fence you will be 10,000 AC electrically shocked. why do you think?

 

3. Fornication, adultery and homosexuality are not crimes. I would be surprised if an atheist disagreed, mostly because the only criticism to these things comes from religion. This does not mean people should just go do adultery. People should respect marriage.

do you mean, adultery out of marriage is un-respectaful action?

 

Of course if both the husband and wife are okay with it I suppose it would be okay (of course you need to consider legal obligations such as child support).

what if that was okey for one of the partners and not for the other, what will be the solution?

 

you, personaly, [using large font size is not allowed]

1- will be okey with this?

2- is it okey for any of the two parteners to have sex out of marriage in the marriage house/marriage room/marriage bed?

3- is it okey for any of the two parteners to have sex out of marriage in the marriage bed in the other partener presence and/or the children?

4- if he/she received AIDS or any non-curable STDs and so transferred it to the partner, is that still okey?

Edited by AHMAD_73

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then you may need to learn Arabic English!!!

in your opinion, how long the killer have to be jailed, will be fair?

for those who have a specific nature (agressive, rebel, criminal) they will see such relation is ultimate right. in fact all the humanity saw it as a relevant relation, and they already appling it in the most important and critical sections in the society, in the Army, near the stratigic facilities. you know when ever you get near any nuclear power station or army unit, they will just shoot you down, and when ever you try to touch the fence you will be 10,000 AC electrically shocked. why do you think?

do you mean, adultery out of marriage is un-respectaful action?

what if that was okey for one of the partners and not for the other, what will be the solution?

 

you, personaly, [using large font size is not allowed]

1- will be okey with this?

2- is it okey for any of the two parteners to have sex out of marriage in the marriage house/marriage room/marriage bed?

3- is it okey for any of the two parteners to have sex out of marriage in the marriage bed in the other partener presence and/or the children?

4- if he/she received AIDS or any non-curable STDs and so transferred it to the partner, is that still okey?

 

1. I don't know how long a killer would have to be jailed. I'm sure it depends on the situation, too. However this question really has nothing to do with the original topic. My claim is that morality can exist very easily without religion.

2. I'm okay with punishment as long as it is not excessively cruel. The relationship between strength of punishment and number of people that do the crime may hold, but even if it does, I doubt it is a strong relationship. Say the current punishment for murder is 10 years of jail. If you change that to 20 years, will murder decrease? I highly doubt it. People don't choose to do what they do with legal consequences in mind. So this really wouldn't affect people doing crimes. However I think this point is also irrelevant. I'm not saying I personally can create some sort of utopia based on my ideas. I think examples like the American justice system is sufficient to show that religion is not necessary for morals/a good society.

3. Yes, adultery is disrespectful to marriage. When people get married they expect loyalty. However, this is similar to your friends trusting you. If your friends trust you but you lie to them and they find out, are you a criminal? No. Can this happen without negatively affected society? Sure, since not too many people do this. Is it moral? Maybe not. That's where the decision rests with the individual, and it has nothing to do with the society as a whole. Why, if breaking your friends' trust is not illegal, is it not widespread across the world? Will atheist friends break trust more often? I highly doubt it. This is sufficient to show that religion is not some sort of controlling factor that greatly affects people's behavior.

4. If one partner is not okay with it the other should respect the marriage. The marriage would be based on their agreements, so if they did not agree that adultery is okay then adultery would be disrespectful to the marriage.

I don't see why the adults would have sex around children. That's just silly. As far as the disease is concerned, note that if both parties had initially agreed, they are capable of making their own decisions so they have responsibility of that. That being said I don't think many married couples actually agree on adultery, but if they did, it would not somehow destroy the society. It would be an individual choice.

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