Jump to content
Islamic Forum
atheism101

Church And State

Recommended Posts

Do you think church (religion) and state (government) should be together or separate? Which would lead to a healthier/more progressive society?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I know, the Sharia system and Caliphate are considered the best for an Islamic society. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I personally believe that seperation of state and religion are better. In that way, all are insured freedom of speech, expression and equal rights for non-Muslims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as I know, the Sharia system and Caliphate are considered the best for an Islamic society. Please correct me if I am mistaken. .....
Yes, and most/first priority is for Makkah (Mecca) where millions of muslimin and muslimah go for (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/topic/738090-caliphate/page__view__findpost__p__1254661"]hajj as the 5th pillar of Islam[/url] every year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For Muslims, we believe Shariah is the best way.
asSalaamu'alaykum,

do you think it could be implemented in the management/administration of hajj travel process ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I know, the Sharia system and Caliphate are considered the best for an Islamic society. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I personally believe that seperation of state and religion are better. In that way, all are insured freedom of speech, expression and equal rights for non-Muslims.

Sounds pretty good to me.

Yes, and most/first priority is for Makkah (Mecca) where millions of muslimin and muslimah go for ...hajj as the 5th pillar of Islam every year.

I'm sorry, what exactly are you arguing here? I didn't get the point you were making.

asSalaamu'alaykum,

do you think it could be implemented in the management/administration of hajj travel process ?

I wasn't really expecting this to go in the direction of hajj, especially since I do not know much about the government processes involved. I was asking more towards the separation of religion from government.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, and most/first priority is for Makkah (Mecca) where millions of muslimin and muslimah go for ...hajj as the 5th pillar of Islam every year.

I'm sorry, what exactly are you arguing here? I didn't get the point you were making.

I meant, the syari'ah, should be put as the top priority to be implemented in Makkah. After that, we can countinue the implementation in the whole country.

I wasn't really expecting this to go in the direction of hajj, especially since I do not know much about the government processes involved. I was asking more towards the separation of religion from government.

I thought, you asking about the implementation in daily life.

The government process including how to manage transportation, visa, rooms rent (hotels), catering etc.

Those all can be as a field to implement syari'ah. The hajj society need also be healthier. It involving a lot of money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant, the syari'ah, should be put as the top priority to be implemented in Makkah. After that, we can countinue the implementation in the whole country.

I thought, you asking about the implementation in daily life.

The government process including how to manage transportation, visa, rooms rent (hotels), catering etc.

Those all can be as a field to implement syari'ah. The hajj society need also be healthier. It involving a lot of money.

Under sharia law, no one is allowed to dissent. How could that possibly lead to a healthy or progressive society?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Under sharia law, no one is allowed to dissent. How could that possibly lead to a healthy or progressive society?

 

This is what frightens me about Islam. Many Muslims actually believe in dictatorships and state (religious) control of everything in society. It is of course Utopian, although theysometimes refer back to the 'Caliphate' The last was called the Ottoman empire I believe, a bloody and expansionist regime if ever there was one. Someone actually stated on this forum the other day that Islam equals extremism.

But I've been thinking about this and I think that the main reason the Quran was written was actually because Muhammad had realised that Christianity was taking hold in the world to such an extent that the Arabs needed a strong religion of their own in order to counter it.

Same old story of wars and domination.

 

regards,

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Under sharia law, no one is allowed to dissent. How could that possibly lead to a healthy or progressive society?

 

Dissent is allowed under Islamic Law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Dissent is allowed under Islamic Law.

 

Oh I see. That's why we DON'T see people getting death threats for presenting different opinions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Dissent is allowed under Islamic Law.

 

I tend to think that you mean a very minor diferrence of opinion.

Fundamental questioning is not allowed, even for discussion. Human rights are not even an issue, if they appear to differ from 'The Book'.

 

You yourself, I believe, have supported the severance of human limbs as 'punishment'. I would also guess that you would support stoning to death for adultery.

But would you be prepared to do these things yourself?

 

regards,

 

ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I see. That's why we DON'T see people getting death threats for presenting different opinions.

 

What an answer.

 

I tend to think that you mean a very minor diferrence of opinion.

Fundamental questioning is not allowed, even for discussion. Human rights are not even an issue, if they appear to differ from 'The Book'.

 

No, I don't mean a very minor of difference of opinion. Human rights are derived from the Book in an Islamic state.

 

You yourself, I believe, have supported the severance of human limbs as 'punishment'. I would also guess that you would support stoning to death for adultery.

But would you be prepared to do these things yourself?

 

Yes, I do support that. However, asking me whether I would be prepared to administer these punishments myself is quite irrelevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best one to decide what is best for society, how is a crime and what is not a crime, how the punishments should be, how the management of wealth should be, how the social aspect in public should be and so on is not the weak and limited human being rather it should be the All-Knowledge and Wise Creator.

 

Ron: But I've been thinking about this and I think that the main reason the Quran was written was actually because Muhammad had realised that Christianity was taking hold in the world to such an extent that the Arabs needed a strong religion of their own in order to counter it.

Same old story of wars and domination

 

1. The Qur`aan was 'revealed' and then written.

2. Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] did not consider himself as an 'arab'. He rejected nationalism. So clearly you are just making stuff up

3. Christianity can never 'take hold' of the world, that is absurd. This is because by its nature it is a secular religion [or has become a secular religion after Jesus [peace be upon him] left the earth] - so how can it take control if its place is not even in the governments?

 

I think the answer to queries you have would be solved once you recognise the miraculous nature of the Qur`aan which points to a Divine Authority. After that, life becomes simple to understand and our purpose of existence becomes clear.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What an answer.

No, I don't mean a very minor of difference of opinion. Human rights are derived from the Book in an Islamic state.

Yes, I do support that. However, asking me whether I would be prepared to administer these punishments myself is quite irrelevant.

 

Hope you caught my sarcasm.

"Human rights are derived from the Book in an Islamic state." This precisely summarizes the problem - nothing other than what is in the book can be law, and nothing in the Quran can be questioned.

 

The best one to decide what is best for society, how is a crime and what is not a crime, how the punishments should be, how the management of wealth should be, how the social aspect in public should be and so on is not the weak and limited human being rather it should be the All-Knowledge and Wise Creator.

 

Hence the problem.

3. Christianity can never 'take hold' of the world, that is absurd. This is because by its nature it is a secular religion [or has become a secular religion after Jesus [peace be upon him] left the earth] - so how can it take control if its place is not even in the governments?

Secular religion? Oh NOW you're making sense.

 

I think the answer to queries you have would be solved once you recognise the miraculous nature of the Qur`aan which points to a Divine Authority. After that, life becomes simple to understand and our purpose of existence becomes clear.

And thus blind belief was born.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Human rights are derived from the Book in an Islamic state." This precisely summarizes the problem - nothing other than what is in the book can be law, and nothing in the Quran can be questioned.

 

"nothing other than what is in the book can be law". This part is incorrect. There are plenty of situations, conditions, issues that are not addressed in the Qur'an and these things can be decided by men. You are right though that in an Islamic State the Qur'an wouldn't be questioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What an answer.

 

 

 

No, I don't mean a very minor of difference of opinion. Human rights are derived from the Book in an Islamic state.

 

 

 

Yes, I do support that. However, asking me whether I would be prepared to administer these punishments myself is quite irrelevant.

 

Irrelevant? To what? Humanity? I would like to ask if any Muslim on this site would be prepared to stone a woman to death for adultery.

And if anyone was honest enough to say that they would then I for one would not consider that they would have the right to call themselves civilised human beings.

Or do you want someone else to do your dirty work for you?

 

regards,

 

ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best one to decide what is best for society, how is a crime and what is not a crime, how the punishments should be, how the management of wealth should be, how the social aspect in public should be and so on is not the weak and limited human being rather it should be the All-Knowledge and Wise Creator.

 

Ron: But I've been thinking about this and I think that the main reason the Quran was written was actually because Muhammad had realised that Christianity was taking hold in the world to such an extent that the Arabs needed a strong religion of their own in order to counter it.

Same old story of wars and domination

 

1. The Qur`aan was 'revealed' and then written.

2. Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] did not consider himself as an 'arab'. He rejected nationalism. So clearly you are just making stuff up

3. Christianity can never 'take hold' of the world, that is absurd. This is because by its nature it is a secular religion [or has become a secular religion after Jesus [peace be upon him] left the earth] - so how can it take control if its place is not even in the governments?

 

I think the answer to queries you have would be solved once you recognise the miraculous nature of the Qur`aan which points to a Divine Authority. After that, life becomes simple to understand and our purpose of existence becomes clear.

 

I am not 'just making stuff up'. It came to me that - unpalatable to Muslims that this may be - that this was actually the reality of of what happened. It came to me just as if it were a flsh of divine inspiration. So simple!

I suppose you know all about how things are 'revealed' don't you?

I believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was an Arab. Correct me if I'm wrong. It isn't important whether he regarded himself one or not. Why do you say he didn't? He must certainly have had an awareness of his identity in terms of where he lived and was born. And he also would have had an awareness of what had been happening in the world since the birth of Jesus and birth of Christianity.

 

Christianity can 'never take hold in the world'? What planet do you live on? Perhaps you need to study history a bit. The whole of Europe (apart from a short time when the Moors took hold of Southern Spain) was converted to Christianity.

 

regards,

 

ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not 'just making stuff up'. It came to me that - unpalatable to Muslims that this may be - that this was actually the reality of of what happened. It came to me just as if it were a flsh of divine inspiration. So simple!

I suppose you know all about how things are 'revealed' don't you?

I believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was an Arab. Correct me if I'm wrong. It isn't important whether he regarded himself one or not. Why do you say he didn't? He must certainly have had an awareness of his identity in terms of where he lived and was born. And he also would have had an awareness of what had been happening in the world since the birth of Jesus and birth of Christianity.

 

Christianity can 'never take hold in the world'? What planet do you live on? Perhaps you need to study history a bit. The whole of Europe (apart from a short time when the Moors took hold of Southern Spain) was converted to Christianity.

 

regards,

 

ron

 

Correction: I meant to say 'flash', but maybe 'fish' will do...

 

 

ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"nothing other than what is in the book can be law". This part is incorrect. There are plenty of situations, conditions, issues that are not addressed in the Qur'an and these things can be decided by men. You are right though that in an Islamic State the Qur'an wouldn't be questioned.

 

What I meant to say was that nothing that goes against anything the book says can be law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"nothing other than what is in the book can be law". This part is incorrect. There are plenty of situations, conditions, issues that are not addressed in the Qur'an and these things can be decided by men. You are right though that in an Islamic State the Qur'an wouldn't be questioned.

 

As for the second part of the quote, you admit to the major problem "that in an Islamic State the Qur'an wouldn't be questioned."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not 'just making stuff up'. It came to me that - unpalatable to Muslims that this may be - that this was actually the reality of of what happened. It came to me just as if it were a flsh of divine inspiration. So simple!

I suppose you know all about how things are 'revealed' don't you?

I believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was an Arab. Correct me if I'm wrong. It isn't important whether he regarded himself one or not. Why do you say he didn't? He must certainly have had an awareness of his identity in terms of where he lived and was born. And he also would have had an awareness of what had been happening in the world since the birth of Jesus and birth of Christianity.

 

Christianity can 'never take hold in the world'? What planet do you live on? Perhaps you need to study history a bit. The whole of Europe (apart from a short time when the Moors took hold of Southern Spain) was converted to Christianity.

 

regards,

 

ron

 

1. Reply to your other post, we believe in the stoning of adultery - both for the women and the men. You speak as if we are going to shy away from it? This has been the best ever method to reduce the crime of adultery in history. The mere fact that you hate this punishment itself is an enough proof that you would not dare commit this sin if this punishment was in place. And besides, this law exists both in the old testament and new testament

 

2. If you think your inspired, show us your proof.. what miracle have you got? The answer would always be - none. It could also be that you are possessed? God challenges you in the Qur`aan to produce a chapter like it if you are in doubt of its author and also if you can find any contradictions...why dont you defeat that challenge? - you would destroy the entire Muslim population this way. But you would definitely fail even if you gathered the whole of mankind.

 

3. Yes he was Arab, but he rejected nationalism - as i said in the previous post which you seemed to have not read? And if you studied history, you would know that at his time there were two main empires - Roman and Persians [who were fire worshippers]. So who told you that the Prophet Muhammad was worried that christianity would take over the world, what about the Persians?

 

4. Theres a difference between Christianity and a Christian. If a christian is in charge, that does not mean christianity is in charge. David cameron is a christian, but is england ruled by christianity? No. Because Christianity is a secular religion, it cannot by its nature rule a country. Parts of it can by applied, but ultimately it would still be manmade law. When it tried to rule, it caused oppression and people had to rise against it. But the foolishness of the people who rose up is that they replaced a man made system with another man made system.

 

And hence, and the answer to the initial question of the thread, there would always be oppression and chaos on earth as long as man is made to rule by his own weak and limited understandings, wisdom, judgements and so on.

 

True peace and harmony would always come about when we all submit to Gods law [i.e. the shariah], just like the rest of the universe submit to Gods law [laws of nature] and work in harmony.

 

 

This is my last post on this thread so dont expect any replies. No point debating if people are going to make stuff up and try and attack Islaam - and they talk about being civilised?

Edited by Israa`eel
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Reply to your other post, we believe in the stoning of adultery - both for the women and the men. You speak as if we are going to shy away from it? This has been the best ever method to reduce the crime of adultery in history. The mere fact that you hate this punishment itself is an enough proof that you would not dare commit this sin if this punishment was in place. And besides, this law exists both in the old testament and new testament

"The crime of adultery" is not a serious threat, whereas the crime of, say, pedophilia, is. Any death sentence for pedophiles?

 

2. If you think your inspired, show us your proof.. what miracle have you got? The answer would always be - none. It could also be that you are possessed? God challenges you in the Qur`aan to produce a chapter like it if you are in doubt of its author and also if you can find any contradictions...why dont you defeat that challenge? - you would destroy the entire Muslim population this way. But you would definitely fail even if you gathered the whole of mankind.

I find this very amusing, because for example the Jews are criticized for asking their prophet to prove to them that he was a real prophet. As far as the silly challenge is confirmed, guess who the judges are? Muslims. Oh wait...

 

4. Theres a difference between Christianity and a Christian. If a christian is in charge, that does not mean christianity is in charge. David cameron is a christian, but is england ruled by christianity? No. Because Christianity is a secular religion, it cannot by its nature rule a country. Parts of it can by applied, but ultimately it would still be manmade law. When it tried to rule, it caused oppression and people had to rise against it. But the foolishness of the people who rose up is that they replaced a man made system with another man made system.

Ok, there is really no other way to put this: SECULAR means NOT RELIGIOUS. "Secular religion" involves no spiritual component. You must be completely ignorant of Christianity if you think it's somehow secular. A better way to put what you are saying would be perhaps to say that average Christians are much more moderate than average Muslims. This, of course, is definitely not a bad thing.

 

And hence, and the answer to the initial question of the thread, there would always be oppression and chaos on earth as long as man is made to rule by his own weak and limited understandings, wisdom, judgements and so on.

Why do we see more oppression and chaos today in Muslim countries than non-Muslim countries?

 

 

True peace and harmony would always come about when we all submit to Gods law [i.e. the shariah], just like the rest of the universe submit to Gods law [laws of nature] and work in harmony.

This is my last post on this thread so dont expect any replies. No point debating if people are going to make stuff up and try and attack Islaam - and they talk about being civilised?

Nothing was falsely presented as fact. Ron just presented his own theory. Far from being uncivilized. I'd prefer a million false theories over people still believing in stoning in this day and age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The crime of adultery" is not a serious threat, whereas the crime of, say, pedophilia, is. Any death sentence for pedophiles?

 

Child molestation/rape also carry the penalty of death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the second part of the quote, you admit to the major problem "that in an Islamic State the Qur'an wouldn't be questioned."

 

Yes, that's right. Although it is not a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×