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Make Bradford "british"

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Salaam

 

I searched for this topic but didnt find anything...sorry if i opened a duplicate thread.

 

 

This programme was to promote integration, but as Muslims we remain Muslims no matter where we go. We do not integrate, rather we encourage others to integrate into Islaam.

And anyway, no one in the programme [or elsewhere] actually defined what it means to be british.... so what exactly are we mean to integrate to?

 

Check this video, forward if you find it beneficial:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV-tjZjGYJU&list=UU5F8uVYleswpdRzYf5S3i6g&index=1&feature=plcp

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We still need to live side-by-side harmoniously, which will mean trying to understand each other, and acknowledge that we are different ...

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We still need to live side-by-side harmoniously, which will mean trying to understand each other, and acknowledge that we are different ...

Agreed...

You don't have to give up Islamic values in order to understand each other.

 

If I remember correctly there was 2 or 3 Muslims in this show and they live together with other people. The Muslim guy who didn't integrate with the others just made Islam seem a closed religion compared to the other 2 especially the woman who was much more open to communication. I think if the point of a Muslim is to call others to Islam you can't just isolate yourself in a society where you are the minority.

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One of the fundamental point of the Deen is [as the Nabi [saw] said]: Al-Islaamu Ya'lu wa laa yu'laa 'alayh - Islaam is superior and nothing can surpass it.

 

With that in mind, when integration is spoken about, it means we can not believe in that anymore. Integration is a call to mix in with the rest of society and to not have the feeling that ones value/beliefs is better than the others. The Muslims should not have gone on to that show in the first place - unless they make it known that integration is not in the agenda of the Muslims.

 

Having said that, coming to your concern about knowing each other and not isolating - I agree with 100%. We are obliged to give Da'wah to the non-Muslims we live amongst and so isolation is something we cannot do. Also it makes it important to know about other peoples beliefs and practises in order to adjust our Da'wah to connect with them.

 

However, 'to know each other' does not mean that we do so in order to respect their beliefs as we already know that any other Deen besides Islaam is false.

 

Coming back to the first point, when giving Da'wah we must show the people that Islaam is a superior way of life [as it is from God] - we dont need to be wishy washy about it and worry about people getting offended. the command of Dawah is that is has to be preached clearly [balaaghul Mubeen]. This is how the Prophet [saw] gave Da'wah and majority of the people got offended and turned against him - resulting in a lot persecution as you all know.

So regarding living harmoniously, although this is something we all want, unfortunetly in the face of all the shirk, kufr and the rest of the evils in our society, its not only hard to live in peace - it is not allowed as Muslims. This is because we have a duty to make our camp clear from the rest of the sinners and make our stance clear. Allah [swt] punishes entire nations when sins get rampant - Britain is a country full of sin. What makes us forget that it could be hit with a punishment from Allaah anytime soon? The only way to save ourselves from it is when we speak out against these evils - not by living integrated, silent and with 'live and let live' mentality.

 

Please free to ask any questions. JZK for reading

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One of the fundamental point of the Deen is [as the Nabi [saw] said]: Al-Islaamu Ya'lu wa laa yu'laa 'alayh - Islaam is superior and nothing can surpass it.

 

With that in mind, when integration is spoken about, it means we can not believe in that anymore. Integration is a call to mix in with the rest of society and to not have the feeling that ones value/beliefs is better than the others. The Muslims should not have gone on to that show in the first place - unless they make it known that integration is not in the agenda of the Muslims.

 

Having said that, coming to your concern about knowing each other and not isolating - I agree with 100%. We are obliged to give Da'wah to the non-Muslims we live amongst and so isolation is something we cannot do. Also it makes it important to know about other peoples beliefs and practises in order to adjust our Da'wah to connect with them.

 

However, 'to know each other' does not mean that we do so in order to respect their beliefs as we already know that any other Deen besides Islaam is false.

 

Coming back to the first point, when giving Da'wah we must show the people that Islaam is a superior way of life [as it is from God] - we dont need to be wishy washy about it and worry about people getting offended. the command of Dawah is that is has to be preached clearly [balaaghul Mubeen]. This is how the Prophet [saw] gave Da'wah and majority of the people got offended and turned against him - resulting in a lot persecution as you all know.

So regarding living harmoniously, although this is something we all want, unfortunetly in the face of all the shirk, kufr and the rest of the evils in our society, its not only hard to live in peace - it is not allowed as Muslims. This is because we have a duty to make our camp clear from the rest of the sinners and make our stance clear. Allah [swt] punishes entire nations when sins get rampant - Britain is a country full of sin. What makes us forget that it could be hit with a punishment from Allaah anytime soon? The only way to save ourselves from it is when we speak out against these evils - not by living integrated, silent and with 'live and let live' mentality.

 

Please free to ask any questions. JZK for reading

 

Would you be upset if non muslim countrys banned any muslims moving there?

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So regarding living harmoniously, although this is something we all want, unfortunetly in the face of all the shirk, kufr and the rest of the evils in our society, its not only hard to live in peace - it is not allowed as Muslims. This is because we have a duty to make our camp clear from the rest of the sinners and make our stance clear. Allah [swt] punishes entire nations when sins get rampant - Britain is a country full of sin. What makes us forget that it could be hit with a punishment from Allaah anytime soon? The only way to save ourselves from it is when we speak out against these evils - not by living integrated, silent and with 'live and let live' mentality.

It is not about living in silence! But with an attitude like that above you are certainly not going to bring people to Islam. In all fairness I think Muslims have a lot of rights in Britain when it comes to practicing religion, compared to other countries where they are oppressed which I think you are downplaying.

 

Integration is not about giving up your religion it is about being part of the larger society. And I really can't stand those Muslims who look down on anyone else who is not a Muslim and they won't even talk to anyone else who is not a Muslim - I can assure you that people like them are not bringing people to Islam compared to a Muslim who is willing to talk to a non Muslim and tell them about Islam. It is like the other day when I was on the bus and in Ireland you give up your seat if there is an old man or old woman. And at the top of the bus their was a Muslim girl who had her bag on the seat beside her and when old people were coming on the bus she wouldn't move it even though there were no other seats free so other people got up to offer their seat! Now is this what Islam teaches us ? Certainly not!

 

The other two options we have in society are assimilation which is blending into the majority culture and multiculturalism which has created groups of cultures that isolate themselves in Britain with no interaction which is why you have ghettos. So if integration is the other option then I am up for that because the other two produce no results.

 

Also patience is a significant part of Islam - we have to be patient as Muslims for results and not expect everyone else in the world to become Muslim just because we are - people are different and people have different journeys and this needs to be understood.

 

It also really annoys me when Muslims start saying the non Muslim country they are living in is full of shirk etc because there are many Muslim majority countries which have strayed from the true message of Allah but no one ever says anything about that! There is no harm in speaking out against evil but there is harm in being a hypocrite.

 

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. (16:25)

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You are mixing up many different ahkaam [rulings] of Islaam up and trying to apply it in the wrong places.

 

Before I go into it, it really saddens me that your post seems very hostile towards Muslims while seeming apologetic to the non-Muslims. I hope this is not the case and only my misunderstanding...

 

I think this time it is better to discuss with each other with more evidence from Qur'aan and Sunnah:

 

The Prophet [saw] said: I have nothing to do with any Muslim who lives amongst the Mushrikeen [i.e. the Disbelievers - including Britain] - This Hadeeth is Saheeh and there are others similiar to it which talk about making our camps clear.

 

The Scholars who explained this have mentioned that the permit to live amongst the non-Muslims is for things such as economic benefit, providing that the basics of our Deen can be practised.

 

As for the basics, what is the ultimate basis of our Deen? It is not Prayer, Dress Code and so on - which are all definitely from the signs of Islaam. There is something more basic than these things, which must be present in order for our Salaah and the rest of our Ibaadah to be accepted - and that is the Kalimat ut-Tawheed i.e. Laa ilaaha illa Allaah.

 

Im sure when you studied this topic, you would have known that [in summary] it is a statement which rejects all Taaghoot [things which are worshipped, obeyed or followed besides Allaah], Shirk and Kufr and affirms Allaah as the only one worthy to be obeyed, worshipped and followed.

 

It is from this that our basic duty is to openly declare that we have nothing to do with the shirk and kufr of the people - this is how we make our camps clear.

The british governemnt are at a war against Islaam and Muslims - under the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism. It is our basic duty to declare our ourselves free from the government and its people and expose them and warn others not to follow them:

 

''Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrahim and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone'' [soorah 60:4]

 

The above is form the way of Ibraaheem [as] and Allaah says that whoever turns away from this path has fooled himself - so it is very dangerous to claim that you get annoyed when people do that.

 

As for inviting non-Muslims to Islaam, of course this has to be done in a kind and gentle manner. No one is saying dont give up your seat for an old man because he is Kaafir and so on. Even though we make our stance clear that we are against shirk and kufr, that does not mean we do not have concern for non-Muslims - we should try and show the guidance to all of them in the best way possible. And im sure you nkow the evidences for being kind and gentle already.

 

In summary, we should realise that in Islaam there is a place for both harshness and softness and one should not be sacrificed for the sake of the other and each has its own place and cannot be mixed up.

 

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"The british governemnt are at a war against Islaam and Muslims - under the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism. It is our basic duty to declare our ourselves free from the government and its people and expose them and warn others not to follow them"

 

 

I'm wondering what you base this statement on. What do you think is 'the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism".

 

And are you saying that you are not only not subject to the laws of the country in which you have chosen to live in, but that you should also try to encourage others to actively break those laws?

 

I myself resent being called a 'Kaafir' in my own country.

 

Regards,

 

ron

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Before I go into it, it really saddens me that your post seems very hostile towards Muslims while seeming apologetic to the non-Muslims. I hope this is not the case and only my misunderstanding...

It is definitely your misunderstanding because I believe that Islam is the right religion for all people but I also understand that not everyone sees this and that there are people who take longer to come to Islam if they are not born into a Muslim family. And there are Muslims who are not practicing their faith the right way and we need to encourage them too not just non Muslims. You and I know that though there are Muslims who are hypocrites in the West, they are the first to speak up against an injustice to Muslims in the West such as the ban of the burqa/niqab in France (and rightly so) but when it comes to injustices to Muslims in Muslim majority countries I don't hear them saying anything such as the ban on women in Turkey to even cover their hair when they go to school.

 

 

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you avoid justice; and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. (4:135)

This verse makes it clear that we must stand out for justice even if it is against Muslims who are not following Islam correctly - but people do not do this enough and they just focus on the non Muslim when there are plenty of things we need to fix within the Islamic community.

 

As for the basics, what is the ultimate basis of our Deen? It is not Prayer, Dress Code and so on - which are all definitely from the signs of Islaam. There is something more basic than these things, which must be present in order for our Salaah and the rest of our Ibaadah to be accepted - and that is the Kalimat ut-Tawheed i.e. Laa ilaaha illa Allaah.

You just wrote in a previous thread that to believe is not enough - I am aware that the core of Islam is the belief Allah alone but I also am aware that Islam comes with other responsibilities that relate to how we deal with others and our own moral character.

 

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Faith (Belief) consists of more than sixty branches (i.e. parts). And haya (This term "haya" covers a large number of concepts which are to be taken together; amongst them are self respect, modesty, bashfulness, and scruple, etc.) is a part of faith." (Sahih Bukhari Book 2 Hadith 8)

It is clear from Islam that faith is not just about saying I believe there is no god but Allah because we have to put that faith into practice.

 

It is from this that our basic duty is to openly declare that we have nothing to do with the shirk and kufr of the people - this is how we make our camps clear.

The british governemnt are at a war against Islaam and Muslims - under the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism. It is our basic duty to declare our ourselves free from the government and its people and expose them and warn others not to follow them:

No one is saying that we have to be best friends with non Muslims - the point of integration is to interact to some degree with the 'others' in society and not isolate yourself in your own group.

 

 

 

As for inviting non-Muslims to Islaam, of course this has to be done in a kind and gentle manner. No one is saying dont give up your seat for an old man because he is Kaafir and so on.

The point is there are Muslims who do not give up their seat just because the elderly person is not a Muslim - and there are people who do not want anything to do with non Muslims - they won't look at them they won't talk to them etc like they are a disease. If I didn't speak out about this then I would just be a hypocrite. Tell me do you believe that the Muslim who isolates him/herself is doing any benefit in calling people to Islam compared to the Muslim who is willing to interact with non Muslims, answer the questions they have about Islam? And right now with the media against Islam and prejudices against Islam obvious, it is necessary that Muslims interact with non Muslims in order to clear these misconceptions.

 

In summary, we should realise that in Islaam there is a place for both harshness and softness and one should not be sacrificed for the sake of the other and each has its own place and cannot be mixed up.

I think this can be summed up from the quran:

 

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah does love those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers - those who disobey Allah). (Surah 60: 8-9)

Edited by ParadiseLost
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"The british governemnt are at a war against Islaam and Muslims - under the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism. It is our basic duty to declare our ourselves free from the government and its people and expose them and warn others not to follow them"

 

I'm wondering what you base this statement on. What do you think is 'the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism".

 

hmmm, could be Iraq, the seige 1991-2003, the air stricks 1998, the invassion 2003 tell 2011,.......but i believe every fair person did and should stand against the unjustified actions of the governments

 

I myself resent being called a 'Kaafir' in my own country.

 

Regards,

 

ron

 

i don't like you to take it personally,

 

the word "Kafir" means to cover up, and the english word "cover" is a copy from it. in this specific meaning means "to cover up the truth with the non-truth religion". and every one believe in some thing as the truth, will see those who don't accept it to be Kafir and vise virsa ofcourse.

Edited by AHMAD_73

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After reading your reply, I dont think we are disagreeing with each other, maybe I am not putting my point across in the best way.

 

1. I am against isolation

This would be hiding knowledge and a way of stopping the call of Islaam to spread. I believe the general Muslims in the UK have a covenant of security with its people, that is to say that as long as our life and wealth is not at risk, it is forbidden to target the life or property of any non-Muslim. The whole purpose of this covenant is to facilitate the Da'wah:

 

''And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah'' [9:6]

 

and like you said there would be many questions unanswered if we remain isolated and do not interact with the people. So to answer your question, no i do not believe the isolated Muslim would benefit the spread of Islaam - he may even be a hindrance.

 

2. I am against the Shirk and Kufr of both the Non-Muslims and Muslims.

I am against the kufr of all the countries, whether east or west. But the subject matter was Britain, hence I wouldnt talk about [for example] Bangladesh, Pakistan or Saudi - which all do need to be exposed and talked about.

As for giving Dawah to both Muslim and non-Muslim, of course. I dont know any one who would disagree that we need to fix the problems in our own Ummah.

And also, I dont think it is true to say that more focus is on the problems of the Kuffar rather than Muslims. Majority of the Islamic speakers mostly focus on rectifying the Ummah....Maybe you can mention a few speakers who do not do this? So on this note, it actually becomes more important to speak out against the Kuffaar [i am talking about the government by the way, not every single non-Muslim we see on the street] as not many people openly do this.

 

3. I am against integration

If the intended meaning of integration is as you gave, about not being isolated and interacting with others, then I would agree with you totally. But this is not what the government mean by it. Integration is usually used along with interfaith [known in the Arab world as Ittihaad ul Adyaan - unity between all religions]. Interfaith is about promoting equality between religions and to respect each others beliefs. This is totally Kufr; we do not say that Allaahs Religion and the Religion inspired by the Shaytaan are equal. I am against this. Also from the programme we saw how the idiot in the pub had a problem with the way the sister was dressed. So to some, integration means to adopt their way of clothing. Perhaps a Non-Muslim on this forum can explain what is meant by integration - but certainly it is not about refraining from Dawah [i.e. interaction]

 

4. I dont understand how my thread about believing is not enough contradicts what i wrote above?

Of course, from the other thread, to merely claim we believe in Allaah is not enough. We need to act upon His Commands i.e. show submission. But the point we were talking about here is the basis of the Deen - which is Laa ilaaha illa Allaah.

 

5. Heavy Implications of Laa ilaaha illa Allaah

This statement does not just mean Allaah is God or Allah is the creator.. it means nothing has the rights or is worthy to be worshipped or obeyed or followed [Laa Ilaaha] except Allaah [illa Allaah]. So the first part [Laa ilaaha] is to disbelieve in the things which people worship [idols, animals, cross etc] or even obey [kings, queens, prime ministers, leaders etc] and follow [Christianity, democracy, secularism etc], to believe that worshipping, obeying or following these is futile and also to have hatred for this shirk and its people. And there are many evidences and quotes from the Salaf about this - which im sure you are aware of.

 

This heavy meaning of this kalimah is the reason why all the prophets who came with it were always attacked and even killed. If it was always presented with sugar coating, why did they get attacked? Ibraaheem [as] got thrown alive in a fire and the companions of 'Isa [as] got sworn in half - who would do these things if they were spoken to nicely and gently? The fact is, this kalimah goes directly against the interests, authority and entire way of life of the Mushrikeen. And of course, i am referring to the heads of kufr and not the normal non-Muslim.

 

6. Differentiating between Head of Kufr and average non-Muslim

As said above, our tawheed rejects the authority of the head of Kufr - and it includes its armys and supporters [this head is otherwise known as Taaghoot]. But our attitude and actions towards other Non-Muslims is not the same. In fact some non-Muslims are against the government as well. Like the verse you quoted above, it is not forbidden to treat them kindly. We dont believe in going round beating up any Kaafir we see, or speaking to them rudely or bullying them etc. This is all detrimental to Dawah. But having said that, we are still obliged to have hatred for them - although the level of hate would not be the same as the head of Kufr. Our hatred is not anything personal, we hate a person purely for their rejection of Islaam and their shirk. This is why when they give it up and embrace Islaam, we begin to have love for them and treat them like we would treat our own family members. so although we have hatred for them, it should not make us be unjust to them and treat them badly, rather it should motivate us more to give them Dawah. And this Dawah is out of concern, we do not want people to be punished.

 

 

Forgive me if I missed anything out or if I didnt make my points clear. JZK for spending time reading. And may Allaah forgive me if I said anything wrong and reward you, or anyone else, when you correct me

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"The british governemnt are at a war against Islaam and Muslims - under the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism. It is our basic duty to declare our ourselves free from the government and its people and expose them and warn others not to follow them" I'm wondering what you base this statement on. What do you think is 'the lie of fighting terrorism and extremism". And are you saying that you are not only not subject to the laws of the country in which you have chosen to live in, but that you should also try to encourage others to actively break those laws? I myself resent being called a 'Kaafir' in my own country. Regards, ron

 

1. When they talk about extremism, they are referring to aspects of the Shariah - which is synonymous to Islaam.

2. For them, the terrorist is those people who are defending their own home land and trying to get rid of the foreign occupation [of USA and ally], while intending to establish the Islamic state

3. And an extremist is the one who believes in an Islamic state

 

This is a brief summary. As you can see, they are against Islaam and Muslims - regardless of what they call it.

 

The question about the law, firstly we do not believe we are obliged to break the law and nor do we call people to break the law. Rather we believe none has the rights to be obeyed except Allaah [included in the meaning of laa ilaaha ill Allaah] and we call people to obey Allaah and not break His Law. As for the law we live under, the meaning of Laa ilaaha ill Allaah indicates that the law does not have the right to exist in the first place. We believe in this Verse:

 

''Or have they got partners with Allaah who have legislated for them a Deen [way of life] which Allah did not authorize'' [42:21] - to the nearest meaning.

 

 

So we believe that Allaah did not authorise any law from any way of life to be legislated except for His own i.e. Islaam/Shariah.

 

 

As for resenting being called Kaafir, this is just a descriptive word which refers to the people who reject Islaam. You said you are a Buddhist, which means you do not believe in Islaam. Hence we would call you a Kaafir in Islaam - disbeliever in Islaam. You dont have to be offended by it, you can call me a Kaafir in Buddhism, I wouldnt have a problem with that.

And we would not call you Kaafir if you embrace Islaam :)

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hmmm, could be Iraq, the seige 1991-2003,....but i believe every fair person did and should stand against the unjustified actions of the governments...

 

 

I WAS AGAINST the ILLEGAL INVASION of KUWAIT by THE GOVERNMENT OF IRAQ. WERE YOU ? :yes:

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1. When they talk about extremism, they are referring to aspects of the Shariah - which is synonymous to Islaam.

2. For them, the terrorist is those people who are defending their own home land and trying to get rid of the foreign occupation [of USA and ally], while intending to establish the Islamic state

3. And an extremist is the one who believes in an Islamic state

 

This is a brief summary. As you can see, they are against Islaam and Muslims - regardless of what they call it.

 

The question about the law, firstly we do not believe we are obliged to break the law and nor do we call people to break the law. Rather we believe none has the rights to be obeyed except Allaah [included in the meaning of laa ilaaha ill Allaah] and we call people to obey Allaah and not break His Law. As for the law we live under, the meaning of Laa ilaaha ill Allaah indicates that the law does not have the right to exist in the first place. We believe in this Verse:

 

''Or have they got partners with Allaah who have legislated for them a Deen [way of life] which Allah did not authorize'' [42:21] - to the nearest meaning.

 

 

So we believe that Allaah did not authorise any law from any way of life to be legislated except for His own i.e. Islaam/Shariah.

 

 

As for resenting being called Kaafir, this is just a descriptive word which refers to the people who reject Islaam. You said you are a Buddhist, which means you do not believe in Islaam. Hence we would call you a Kaafir in Islaam - disbeliever in Islaam. You dont have to be offended by it, you can call me a Kaafir in Buddhism, I wouldnt have a problem with that.

And we would not call you Kaafir if you embrace Islaam :)

 

Firstly, I have only put Buddhist on my profile because it most nearly represents my current beliefs. I used to call myself Muslim for the same reasons but since being on this site I have changed that.

I'm not going to bother to reeply to the body of your post because I can see that you have distanced yourself from these extremist views by using 'they' and speaking in the third person.

Why don't you just come out and say that you supported the London underground bombings or 9/11 and any other so-called terrorist acts comitted in the name of Islam by persons claiming to be Muslims?

 

regards,

 

ron

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I WAS AGAINST the ILLEGAL INVASION of KUWAIT by THE GOVERNMENT OF IRAQ. WERE YOU ? :yes:

yes of course i was against it,

 

let's say i was against it 100-1000 times, which is the number of casualities.

 

i'm against the un-fair, non-humenitarian siege (1991-2003) over the whole Iraqi population, that led to the death of 100,000s most of them were children, which wasn't urgent especialy after destructing almost 90% of the Iraqi military capabilities and 80% of its infra-structure, for example collapsing every bridge over Deglah and Alfurat, almost every electric power station, water station, factory,......

 

i'm against the illegal Air stricks in 1998, let's say 1000s of times

 

i'm against the un-fair, non-humenitarian and illegal invassion 2003-2011 another 1000,000 of times, which are the number of casualities and the weak faked causes.

 

i know you don't like comparisons but, that's the truth

i'm against the US/British invassins, 2,010,000 :1000 the Iraqi invassion.

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It is like the other day when I was on the bus and in Ireland you give up your seat if there is an old man or old woman. And at the top of the bus their was a Muslim girl who had her bag on the seat beside her and when old people were coming on the bus she wouldn't move it even though there were no other seats free so other people got up to offer their seat! Now is this what Islam teaches us ? Certainly not!

 

Is it what Islam teaches? Recall what I quoted elsewhere, and which Muslims here defended:

 

... However, I have just read this in ibn Kathir's tasfir on surah 9:29, and am crying inside:

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

...

We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

 

There is not much difference between making a Christian move from their seat, and not moving from yours if a Christian - no matter how old - wants or needs to sit in it.

 

This is why I raised it. Perhaps now you can see why I cried inside.

 

Richard

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Is it what Islam teaches? Recall what I quoted elsewhere, and which Muslims here defended:

 

 

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah does love those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers - those who disobey Allah). (Surah 60: 8-9)

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Dear ParadiseLost (or better, Lost_In_Eden, Lost_In_Jannat?),

 

I am sorry for posting that, but it is an emotive issue for me, as I am sure that it is an emotive issue for you. It does show how misunderstandings will bread fear. People do fear that Islam is nice now, but will change when it can. Then again, in the TV programme I was totally shocked when an ex-policeman spoke of 'paki-bashing'. Fear is on both sides. (Also the Muslim lady went into a pub to help there - how brave was this! - but the customers were so rude and horrible to her without cause.)

 

But moving on, I have been thinking that Islam could seriously help the West. 50 years ago, marriage was held in honour. Sex outside of marriage happened (and always will do), but society acknowledged that for the good of society marriage was best. Films were more strictly regulated for their content, elders held in respect, and so on. While I know people here will think I am a puritan in favour of censorship - which I am not - it is clear that something fundamental has been lost: I heard of a teenage mother where the commitment of the father of the baby did not go beyond calling round to her twice a week for sex! This is absurd.

 

I repeat, I do not want to go to censorship, but the balance in society needs readjusting. And it must come from the population as a whole. Christians in general will be in favour of this, but it is our culture which has been ruined. There must be a way forward, and I think Islam can help a lot, but it will have to compromise to help to get the core of marriage and respect back into society.

 

Richard

PS Joke: Why wasn't Jesus born in America? Because they couldn't find a virgin!

Funny, but in reality totally tragic ...

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Dear ParadiseLost (or better, Lost_In_Eden, Lost_In_Jannat?),

 

I repeat, I do not want to go to censorship, but the balance in society needs readjusting. And it must come from the population as a whole. Christians in general will be in favour of this, but it is our culture which has been ruined. There must be a way forward, and I think Islam can help a lot, but it will have to compromise to help to get the core of marriage and respect back into society.

Richard

Yes I agree. While Christianity and Islam have their differences they also have things they agree on - I think for the time being it would be better for society that they use the things they agree on to help reform society. Society is ruined nowadays you just have to watch an episode of Jeremy Kyle (UK talk show) to see how adultery is causing problems. Muhammad pbuh came with his message to a society that was completely ignorant - he gradually had to introduce new things and revelations from Allah were sent down over a period of years - it is not wise for us to think society can change in one day, things need to be done slowly. InshaAllah change will come soon. Also things being changed for the good of society is something that people do not care about anymore, things are becoming very individualistic.

PS my previous lost in paradise username didn't mean to refer to paradise as in the next life but rather a state of mind of happiness :)

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