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Ron Shirt

Double Talk & War On The West

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I'm not making fun of anyone or anything. What never ceases to amaze me is not only man's capability for self delusion but Muslim's (and other's) self certainty and self righteousness. Not any person nor any religion has all the answers. There will always be the unknown and it's the unknown which interests me.

 

Regards,

 

ron

Dear Ron

Out of all non-believers, the older of them astonish me the most. Young non-believers could possibly have many years of chances to find the truth, correct their lives and find the right path. But old people like you and me have definitely less chances, and the time to stand before our creator comes nearer each day. This is not a wise time to make fun of our fate. Time is ticking, and it will be up one day, or night. Once we die, there is no way we can do anything about this..

 

Think man, think..

 

(I wish you a healthy long happy life)

 

PS Forgive me but I have lost a little patience with Islam. There seems to be a certain amount of what might be termed 'double talk' here on this forum.

I would really like to get to the bottom of what I have started to see as a war on the west or on western values. I am also concerned about the radical/terrorist elements which may well be active here. I trust you will appreciate my honesty in this.

 

Regards,

ron

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PS Forgive me but I have lost a little patience with Islam. There seems to be a certain amount of what might be termed 'double talk' here on this forum.

I would really like to get to the bottom of what I have started to see as a war on the west or on western values. I am also concerned about the radical/terrorist elements which may well be active here. I trust you will appreciate my honesty in this.

 

Regards,

ron

although i don't like the pre-formed patterns and titles the west invinted to put evry thing in. for example if the NATO killed or inslted the Moslems and their beliefs it will be put to the personal small mistakes, while if the opposite happened in an occupied Moslem country it will be put in the box of terrorism although the UN gives the occupied countries the right to defend themselves!!!!!amazing, isn't it!!

 

let's go to another example that may help all of us, i'll ask you a question:

if you was there in Bosnia in Nov. 27 1995, in serbenicia where the Serbs (i don't know if you call them westerners r no!!) were summing the Moslems in groups to masscare them, 8000 and some been masscared in two days, would you help the Moslems? and how?

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although i don't like the pre-formed patterns and titles the west invinted to put evry thing in. for example if the NATO killed or inslted the Moslems and their beliefs it will be put to the personal small mistakes, while if the opposite happened in an occupied Moslem country it will be put in the box of terrorism although the UN gives the occupied countries the right to defend themselves!!!!!amazing, isn't it!!

 

let's go to another example that may help all of us, i'll ask you a question:

if you was there in Bosnia in Nov. 27 1995, in serbenicia where the Serbs (i don't know if you call them westerners r no!!) were summing the Moslems in groups to masscare them, 8000 and some been masscared in two days, would you help the Moslems? and how?

 

Hi,

I think you are referring generally to the catergorisation of things in the western world. This I think, is an offshoot of science whereby one is required to be very clear about what one is talking about. And I can see that this is not always correct when speaking about society or societies or, indeed, the world in general.especially when seen through the eyes of the media.

I'm not sure about your interpretation of what is happening in what you call 'Occupied countries'. As you should realise any occupation has been caused by Islamic or so-called Islamic attacks upon the west. Bin Laden and others were very well aware of the results of their actions and more importantly on the attitudes of Muslims, whom he considered (because he understood muslims very well) which would prevail following his warlike actions.

 

Regarding Bosnia, I don't know but certainly the UN attempted to protect the Muslims (as I would have done) from the genocide of the Serbs. The problem with the UN - as with the Syrian situation - has been with the veto's coming from Russia and China. The west protected Kosovo, if you remember in spite of the Russian vetoes in the 90's.

But, like the Jews, I wonder why it is that Muslims are hated so much by some countries.

Do you know?

 

ron

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Assalamualikum,

 

I think the discussion is getting off-topic. It is better to open another thread for discussion regarding this

 

PS Forgive me but I have lost a little patience with Islam. There seems to be a certain amount of what might be termed 'double talk' here on this forum.

I would really like to get to the bottom of what I have started to see as a war on the west or on western values. I am also concerned about the radical/terrorist elements which may well be active here. I trust you will appreciate my honesty in this.

 

Regards,

ron

.

Sorry. Next time you post anything like this make sure you come with overwhelming evidence. As long as you can't do that, you are spamming.

 

Anyway, on topic, I do think that Ayat ul Kursi is (one of) the most beautiful verse in Qur'an. Want to listen to as many recitations of this verse as possible!

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PS Forgive me but I have lost a little patience with Islam. There seems to be a certain amount of what might be termed 'double talk' here on this forum.

What do you mean by double talk? examples please?

 

I would really like to get to the bottom of what I have started to see as a war on the west or on western values. I am also concerned about the radical/terrorist elements which may well be active here.

OK, so now you're telling us that you have been pretending to learn about Islam, while in fact you were trying to find terrorists around here? and now you have lost your patience and decided to come out of the closet?

That's really funny.. and we thought your intentions were pure and honest.

Fine, have it your way.. waste the few years left looking for your delusions out of your western stereotypical upside down understanding of Islam.

 

Poor Ron, you had your chance, but threw it away.. what a waste, what a gamble!

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What do you mean by double talk? examples please?

 

 

OK, so now you're telling us that you have been pretending to learn about Islam, while in fact you were trying to find terrorists around here? and now you have lost your patience and decided to come out of the closet?

That's really funny.. and we thought your intentions were pure and honest.

Fine, have it your way.. waste the few years left looking for your delusions out of your western stereotypical upside down understanding of Islam.

 

Poor Ron, you had your chance, but threw it away.. what a waste, what a gamble!

 

I'm just trying to be honest with you.

 

By 'double talk' - as a loose phrase, I meant that words and phrases are sometimes used as according, not to what the recognised English translation is but as according to a meaning which seems unique to Muslims. Take the example 'Revert' which according to my dictionary means: a return to a former habit, practice, belief, condition, etc. But this it seems has come to apply to the word 'Convert', which has the meaning:

to change (something) into a different form or properties; transmute; transform. There have been other examples.

 

No, I am not here on a 'terroist hunt', as I've told you I am here mailny to discover the truth about Islam. I also enjoy discussions relating to the origins and nature of the universe. I have connections with what you might call a 'sect' and that also has relevance for me. My intentions are pure and honest. You don't need to mock me.

Anyway, I have been increasingly shocked to discover that those whom I had thought were moderates appear to be looking more and more like extremists. "To be a Muslim is to be extreme" Is one recent quote. "Islam and democracy do not go together" being another. So, yes, I have been learning about Islam, or at least a part of it and also, I might add, coming to understand some of it.

Are these bad things?

 

ron

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Can I just jump in and add a little balance here? There was a convicted terrorist who spent a lot of time on this forum. As I've been trying to discuss elsewhere, it is the lack of heartfelt compassion for those who might end up in hell forever. Keep your beliefs, but can't you let compassion into your heart for those rejected forever?

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It is our belief that we are born Muslims so that is why we use the word revert.

 

I don't think you have the same view of what extremist is - you just copy what the media tells you. Just because we follow our religion does not make us extreme - extreme is exceeding the limits but if one obeys the limits that does not make them extreme. So yes it is a bad thing when you come here and use the perspectives the media give you instead of approaching things with an open mind. And now you come here and suspect us of terrorism - it is quite laughable honestly. You told me before that you think I am brainwashed but I am a person capable of making my own decisions. I searched for answers in many religions and I was critical of Islam at first but I soon realised its truth - and so for you to call people like me brainwashed is condescending especially when nobody forced me to be a Muslim. And this is just typical rhetoric of people like you who don't like answers you get - you call us brainwashed, delusional and arrogant etc.

 

I think you expect us Muslims who follow our religion to be apologetic because you don't like some things but we don't need to be apologetic for following the word of Allah and you would gain a lot more respect here if you actually tried to learn about Islam by trying to get closer to your Creator.

 

You seem to say a lot that you are here to learn about Islam but I rarely see you engaging in topics about the spiritual side of Islam - you seem only ever to be interested in the more political side - so maybe you should ask yourself a question - are you really making an effort to get to know Islam as a whole?

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We do have compassion for them EQ. That's the whole idea behind this forum.

 

[at]Ron

We use the word revert not convert, because every human being was originally born a Muslim. Islam means submission to on'es creator. Its a natural instinct. Until someone or something changes that.

That's why you don't convert, but revert to how you were originally born.

 

I still hope you take the chance while you're here. Don't look for flaws in Islam, set aside your stereotypical pre-assumptions. Open your heart for the truth. You can make it if you try.

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It is our belief that we are born Muslims so that is why we use the word revert.

 

I don't think you have the same view of what extremist is - you just copy what the media tells you. Just because we follow our religion does not make us extreme - extreme is exceeding the limits but if one obeys the limits that does not make them extreme. So yes it is a bad thing when you come here and use the perspectives the media give you instead of approaching things with an open mind. And now you come here and suspect us of terrorism - it is quite laughable honestly. You told me before that you think I am brainwashed but I am a person capable of making my own decisions. I searched for answers in many religions and I was critical of Islam at first but I soon realised its truth - and so for you to call people like me brainwashed is condescending especially when nobody forced me to be a Muslim. And this is just typical rhetoric of people like you who don't like answers you get - you call us brainwashed, delusional and arrogant etc.

 

I think you expect us Muslims who follow our religion to be apologetic because you don't like some things but we don't need to be apologetic for following the word of Allah and you would gain a lot more respect here if you actually tried to learn about Islam by trying to get closer to your Creator.

 

You seem to say a lot that you are here to learn about Islam but I rarely see you engaging in topics about the spiritual side of Islam - you seem only ever to be interested in the more political side - so maybe you should ask yourself a question - are you really making an effort to get to know Islam as a whole?

 

I repeat that I am only trying to clarify certain issues. I am not attempting to deliberately criticise Islam fo no reason.

Yes I understand that you believe 'we' (everyone on earth?) are born Muslims and that is why you use the word 'revert'. This sounds like 'double talk' to me because it is used to describe somebody who has - how shall I say this - fallen away from Islam and then returned to it. So you are saying that the word 'convert' has no meaning in English any longer?

This is, of course a very minor matter, but for you to -again - start to criticise the 'media', as seems to be standard practise; and not only that tell me that I am copying them, is going just a little too far. I'm certain the media aren't perfect, by any means, but are you telling me that the word 'extereme' has no meaning to a Mulslim? I insist that it is condesending for you to tell me that I am coming here and using 'perspectives the media give me'.

 

I am talking about the defintions of words in common usage in the English language. And this seems to be a major point of the blockage of communications. If we have to go through the actuallity of step by step meanings of words, then so be it if this will lend a greater understanding of our positions.

Incidentally, I used the word 'brainwashed' in a PM to you and I don't think you should be broadcasting it now. I shouldn't have used that word but it was only used in passing - as we say in English. It was a mistake and I'm sorry. Using emotive words almost always has the opposite effect and hardens one's position.

 

So what do we have as words we can use? Where do we begin in a world full of black, white and infinite shades of grey? A spectrum of existances and concepts. Hard words, soft words, kind words, unkind words. Punishment, no punishment. Light punishment, serious punishment. Physical punishment, non-physical punishment. Temporary punishment, eternal punishment. Mild punishment through to extreme punishment. Brutal punishment, humane punishment, inhumane punishment.

Always plenty of punishment as opposed to no punishment whatsoever.

Is that how you see Islam versus 'the West'?

 

Regards,

 

ron

 

PS As I have mentioned before I don't seem to see much of the spiritual side of Islam here.

But if there appears to be something wrong with the ground then should 'we' do something about it? I don't really seem to have got past the first hurdle for a westener: Is Islam a danger or a threat to the world? This is my basic question.

Edited by Ron Shirt

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Ron it is not double talk - you seem to make the really small things such as the using of the word revert a big deal when it is not. No one is saying the word convert has no meaning in English. It can also be used in other contexts such as I converted the file from this to that. We just personally don't use the word convert in relation to a person coming back to Islam.

It seems to be an exaggeration about it being a blockage of communication because you know full well what the word means for a Muslim while you have been here. I would understand if you were a new member who had no understanding of the concept that it could be confusing.

It was a mistake and I'm sorry. Using emotive words almost always has the opposite effect and hardens one's position.

It's ok, I am not going to hold it against you

Is that how you see Islam versus 'the West'?

I don't live my life thinking of Islam vs West. Western values are criticised by other cultures also not just Islam. I just see life as a test and that there is good and evil.

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Ron it is not double talk - you seem to make the really small things such as the using of the word revert a big deal when it is not. No one is saying the word convert has no meaning in English. It can also be used in other contexts such as I converted the file from this to that. We just personally don't use the word convert in relation to a person coming back to Islam.

It seems to be an exaggeration about it being a blockage of communication because you know full well what the word means for a Muslim while you have been here. I would understand if you were a new member who had no understanding of the concept that it could be confusing.

 

It's ok, I am not going to hold it against you

 

I don't live my life thinking of Islam vs West. Western values are criticised by other cultures also not just Islam. I just see life as a test and that there is good and evil.

 

"This is, of course a very minor matter". Didn't you read this with reference to being a 'revert'? As I explained this was only one small example but it seems you have chosen to refer back to it once more instead of responding to the main body of my post. I was speaking about the usage and definitions of English words with relation to Islam.

Perhaps I'll need to learn Arabic in order to get at the subtle and hidden meanings within Islam.

 

It does seem to me that the world would be a better place if people put more emphasis on the things they have in common rather than their diferrences.

 

Regards,

 

ron

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It does seem to me that the world would be a better place if people put more emphasis on the things they have in common rather than their diferrences.

 

Regards,

 

ron

 

hello, MR Ron

 

that exactly what we like to have, as well, without asking a Concessions in beliefs.

 

 

PS Forgive me but I have lost a little patience with Islam. There seems to be a certain amount of what might be termed 'double talk' here on this forum.

I would really like to get to the bottom of what I have started to see as a war on the west or on western values. I am also concerned about the radical/terrorist elements which may well be active here. I trust you will appreciate my honesty in this.

 

Regards,

ron

 

 

that charge what intiate all of that tension!!!

 

that's a false charge, this charge can provoke any patient Moslem and we just had long time discusing it, and you was there all the time. if you wonna discuss it again on a reasonable basis we have no problems, begins by giving a deffenition to "terrorism".

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I would really like to get to the bottom of what I have started to see as a war on the west or on western values. I am also concerned about the radical/terrorist elements which may well be active here. I trust you will appreciate my honesty in this.

 

Regards,

ron

 

Are you serious? War on the West.. on an online forum? :huh: If you say so.. funny thing about that is that last I checked hundreds of thousands of Western Soldiers were occupying Muslim land.. not the other way around.

 

As for the bold, underline part well that is just so offensive. Not to mention very ignorant and very rude on your part.

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Are you serious? War on the West.. on an online forum? :huh: If you say so.. funny thing about that is that last I checked hundreds of thousands of Western Soldiers were occupying Muslim land.. not the other way around.

 

As for the bold, underline part well that is just so offensive. Not to mention very ignorant and very rude on your part.

 

Offensive? Very ignorant? Rude? Well that's put my mind at rest.

I was under the impression that the thousands of soldiers were occupying what you call 'Muslim land' were sent there because of of extremist Muslim's violent attacks on western countries.

You're saying I have nothing to worry about?

 

ron

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the thousands of soldiers were occupying what you call 'Muslim land

..so what do you call it?

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