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andalusi

Numerical Miracles In The Quran, Real Evidence

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It just seems that any "evidence" you provide is suspect. You have already admitted that you are not fluent in Arabic, yet you tell me that a seemingly major Islamic site and and an Arabic speaking Islamic scholar and author are both wrong? And we should just take your word for it? Sorry, that may work with some folks, but not with me.

 

i asked an arab who is specialised with mriacles in quran about those stuff and he confirmed what i say to you, he is founder of www.answering-christianity.com

 

this is what he says

 

"To answer you question in the image that you posted "Why was this letter not counted?", it's because the HAMZA is a vowel in this Noble Word.  It is not a letter that is sitting on a KURSI (base) or is attached to an ALIF as in the red-circled one that I colored in the very image that you posted next to it.  In the red example, the ALIF here is a long one, as in Adam in Arabic.  As you know, in Arabic, there are long Alifs and short ones.  Both count as one."

 

 

and if you still dont believe me then dont believe me, i dont care, i have no time to convince you to believe me.

 

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Hi Andalusi


 


Please find attached the periodic table translated with the data you have agreed to above.  Please check my work before I move forwards to the next step.


 


There are a few missing letters as you will see, if you can supply me with the translations for each of these I’ll add them into the data.


 


One thing we need to keep in mind here is that in all cases the letters of the abbreviation are separate characters, they don't run together so cl is not a word rather it's two independent letters so we use the hard 'C' and the hard 'L' sound if you have a hard and a soft sound for these letters so please keep this in mind when you are choosing which Arabic letters represent each character in this translation.


 


Russell


 


 


H, 1, 1, ح


He, 2, 4, ح ا‎


Li, 3, 7, ل‎ ا‎


Be, 4, 9, ب‎ ا‎


B, 5, 11, ب‎


C, 6, 12, ك‎


N, 7, 14, ن‎


O, 8, 16, O


F, 9, 19, ف‎


Ne, 10, 20, ن‎ ا‎


Na, 11, 23, ن‎ ع


Mg, 12, 24, م غ


Al, 13, 27, ع ل‎


Si, 14, 28, ث‎ ا‎


P, 15, 31, P


S, 16, 32, ث‎


Cl, 17, 35, ك‎ ل‎


Ar, 18, 40, ع ر‎


K, 19, 39, ك‎


Ca, 20, 40, ك‎ ع


Sc, 21, 45, ث‎ ك‎


Ti, 22, 48, ت‎ ا‎


V, 23, 51, و‎


Cr, 24, 52, ك‎ ر‎


Mn, 25, 55, م ن‎


Fe, 26, 56, ف‎ ا‎


Co, 27, 59, ك‎ o


Ni, 28, 59, ن‎ ا‎


Cu, 29, 64, ك‎ و‎


Zn, 30, 65, ز‎ ن‎


Ga, 31, 70, غ ع


Ge, 32, 73, غ ا‎


As, 33, 75, ع ث‎


Se, 34, 79, ث‎ ا‎


Br, 35, 80, ب‎ ر‎


Kr, 36, 84, ك‎ ر‎


Rb, 37, 85, ر‎ ب‎


Sr, 38, 88, ث‎ ر‎


Y, 39, 89, و‎


Zr, 40, 91, ز‎ ر‎


Nb, 41, 93, ن‎ ب‎


Mo, 42, 96, م o


Tc, 43, 98, ت‎ ك‎


Ru, 44, 101, ر‎ و‎


Rh, 45, 103, ر‎ ح


Pd, 46, 106, P د


Ag, 47, 108, ع غ


Cd, 48, 112, ك‎ د


In, 49, 115, ا‎ ن‎


Sn, 50, 119, ث‎ ن‎


Sb, 51, 122, ث‎ ب‎


Te, 52, 128, ت‎ ا‎


I, 53, 127, ا‎


Xe, 54, 131, X ا‎


Cs, 55, 133, ك‎ ث‎


Ba, 56, 137, ب‎ ع


La, 57, 139, ل‎ ع


Ce, 58, 140, ك‎ ا‎


Pr, 59, 141, P ر‎


Nd, 60, 144, ن‎ د


Pm, 61, 145, P م


Sm, 62, 150, ث‎ م


Eu, 63, 152, ا‎ و‎


Gd, 64, 157, غ د


Tb, 65, 159, ت‎ ب‎


Dy, 66, 163, د و‎


Ho, 67, 165, ح o


Er, 68, 167, ا‎ ر‎


Tm, 69, 169, ت‎ م


Yb, 70, 173, و‎ ب‎


Lu, 71, 175, ل‎ و‎


Hf, 72, 178, ح ف‎


Ta, 73, 181, ت‎ ع


W, 74, 184, و‎


Re, 75, 186, ر‎ ا‎


Os, 76, 190, O ث‎


Ir, 77, 192, ا‎ ر‎


Pt, 78, 195, P ت‎


Au, 79, 197, ع و‎


Hg, 80, 201, ح غ


Tl, 81, 204, ت‎ ل‎


Pb, 82, 207, P ب‎


Bi, 83, 209, ب‎ ا‎


Po, 84, 209, P o


At, 85, 210, ع ت‎


Rn, 86, 222, ر‎ ن‎


Fr, 87, 223, ف‎ ر‎


Ra, 88, 226, ر‎ ع


Ac, 89, 227, ع ك‎


Th, 90, 232, ت‎ ح


Pa, 91, 231, P ع


U, 92, 238, و‎


Np, 93, 237, ن‎ p


Pu, 94, 244, P و‎


Am, 95, 243, ع م


Cm, 96, 247, ك‎ م


Bk, 97, 247, ب‎ ك‎


Cf, 98, 251, ك‎ ف‎


Es, 99, 252, ا‎ ث‎


Fm, 100, 257, ف‎ م


Md, 101, 258, م د


No, 102, 259, ن‎ o


Lr, 103, 262, ل‎ ر‎


Rf, 104, 267, ر‎ ف‎


Db, 105, 268, د ب‎


Sg, 106, 269, ث‎ غ


Bh, 107, 270, ب‎ ح


Hs, 108, 269, ح ث‎


Mt, 109, 278, م ت‎


Ds, 110, 281, د ث‎


Rg, 111, 281, ر‎ غ


Cn, 112, 285, ك‎ ن‎


Fl, 114, 289, ف‎ ل‎


Lv, 116, 293, ل‎ و‎


 

you cant count like that
 

for example, in first word soft H is used in first verse, while in second word in our H is used, and H is 1 1, i dont know wich of those is programmed, is it first word or that there is one word to the letter H, our H.
 

and for example you cant only count "As" for example, you if there is no other chemical element with with "Sa" then you count reversed "Sa" as "As"


you cant count only like this ,, you dont know if other D is used , there is


Gd, 64, 157, غ د


maybe this ض‎    is used, hard D,  د this is our D


that is why you count only like that

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i asked an arab who is specialised with mriacles in quran about those stuff and he confirmed what i say to you, he is founder of www.answering-christianity.com

 

this is what he says

 

"To answer you question in the image that you posted "Why was this letter not counted?", it's because the HAMZA is a vowel in this Noble Word.  It is not a letter that is sitting on a KURSI (base) or is attached to an ALIF as in the red-circled one that I colored in the very image that you posted next to it.  In the red example, the ALIF here is a long one, as in Adam in Arabic.  As you know, in Arabic, there are long Alifs and short ones.  Both count as one."

 

 

and if you still dont believe me then dont believe me, i dont care, i have no time to convince you to believe me.

 

So, at best, what you have is disagreement between Muslims on the fundamental details of one of your "miracles".

Not really very convincing  if you are yet to be convinced that it is a miracle at all!

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QED, on 11 Mar 2014 - 11:27, said:

So, at best, what you have is disagreement between Muslims on the fundamental details of one of your "miracles".

Not really very convincing if you are yet to be convinced that it is a miracle at all!

in my language there are one letter in alphabet Dz = J for example

 

no one will say that these are two letters, beacuse it sounds as J in english, one letter made of two.

 

so if you come to count a text in my language you read name Dzafer = Jafer

 

you count it as this D, Z, A, F,E,R

 

but youshould actually count it like this

Dz, A, F, E, R

 

at point 7 you will see letter Dz made of two letter, it is allways counted as 1 letter not 2

abeceda1.gif

 

do you understand now why he made mistake, he counted A , elif and hemza as two letter while it is only one letter A

 

same as you would separate D and Z and count them as two letters while it is actually one letter, do you understand now why they counted wrong???

Edited by andalusi

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The Literary Magnificence of the Qur’an.


 


 

3


 


Usually when one thinks of literature the medium of writing comes to mind. Many non Muslims are unaware that the Qur’an was not originally delivered to its first audience in the form of writing, but rather speech. There is a fundamental difference between written and oral communication. Certainly with live, unplanned oral discourse, you don’t have the benefit of the editorial process. Whereas when it comes to publishing written works, you do not release the first draft. The writing process generally involves proof reading, review, corrections and the removal of redundancy before any respectable author considers their work to be in a fit state for public consumption.


To reiterate, the entire Qur’an was first delivered to its audience, a mixture of believers and non believers, in the form of speech. We know from pre-Islamic history that the Arabs were keen on scrutinising each other’s poetic efforts. So Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a tough audience. In addition the Qur’an often did not have the opportunity for an editorial process, as many verses were revealed on the spot as a response to questions and challenges that were brought forward to Prophet Muhammad from both believers and non believers. Moreover, although the Qur’an was revealed gradually over a period of 23 years, it did not go through multiple revisions as it was revealed. This is in contrast to the New Testament which has undergone numerous corrections as the manuscripts were passed from one scribe to another and they decided to correct each other’s mistakes. So had any mistakes or errors crept into the Qur’an, it would have been extremely difficult to correct or retract them given the rapid and mass spread of the Qur’an to multiple tribes and countries. Finally, Prophet Muhammad did not have a reputation for poetry. In fact there is evidence indicating that at a personal level he wasn’t a skilled poet. [1]


In the face of all these obstacles, one would naturally expect the Qur’an to exhibit traits of incoherence, contradictions, redundancy, errors and other such issues. As we will see, this couldn’t be further from the truth. What we are going to take a look at are a few examples of what makes the Qur’an a literary masterpiece against all odds.


CREATIVITY


In the chapter of the Qur’an known as Maryam (Mary), there are sudden changes in the rhyming scheme (click on picture to enlarge):

surah-maryam3.png

 

 

Notice that the pattern for the verse endings are “-a” from the beginning of the chapter all the way up to and including the 33rd verse. The subject of these verses are the prophets with themes of monotheism. The 34th verse suddenly switches to an ending of “-oon”. This verse and the few that follow it divert the subject to the disbelievers. The 41st verse onwards bring the subject back to the prophets and monotheism, resuming the “-a” ending pattern up to the end of the chapter, the 98th verse. What is the purpose of breaking this pattern? This change in pattern represents the audio equivalent of a footnote in written literature. The Qur’an instilled the footnote in the Arabic listener via this change in rhyme scheme. You know that the original subject is continuing from where it left off by the return to the “-a” ending pattern. This was a device that had never been used before in Arabic poetry.

 

 

Edited by andalusi

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from the poetical point of view

 

Chapter Mary

 

verses

1 ends with "a"

2 ends with "a"

3 ends with "a"

.

.

.

33 ends with "a"

 

From 1-33 verses talks about the prophets and monotheism

 

34 ends with "n"

35 ends with "n"

36 ends with "m"

37 ends with "m"

38 ends with "n"

39 ends with "n"

40 ends with "n"

 

Thess verses and the few that follow it divert the subject to the disbelievers

 

41 ends with "a"

42 ends with "a"

.

.

98 ends with "a"

 

The 41st verse onwards bring the subject back to the prophets and monotheism, resuming the “-a” ending pattern up to the end of the chapter, the 98th verse

 

can you recite a chapter from your own head, without using pen and paper that it has this such big rhyme scheme connect to the content of the text?

Edited by andalusi

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Wow, I'm speechless! Why didn't you present this evidence first?  I'm convinced.

It's obviously a miracle as pre-Islamic literature, including some very sophisticated poetry and narrative, was almost entirely based on oral traditions so there's no way that the Quran could have developed using just oral transmission.

Oh.

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do you understand now why he made mistake, he counted A , elif and hemza as two letter while it is only one letter A

 

same as you would separate D and Z and count them as two letters while it is actually one letter, do you understand now why they counted wrong???

All I understand is that you say one thing while two Arabic speaking sources say another.

Personally, I think that the number of letters in chapter 71; 950 or 953, is meaningless and proves absolutely nothing if you are not already convinced that it means something. If you look at a something already convinced that it will prove what you are trying to prove, then you achieve nothing.

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All I understand is that you say one thing while two Arabic speaking sources say another.

Personally, I think that the number of letters in chapter 71; 950 or 953, is meaningless and proves absolutely nothing if you are not already convinced that it means something. If you look at a something already convinced that it will prove what you are trying to prove, then you achieve nothing.

 

it proves that quran is programmed nummerically

 

29:14 We sent Noah out to his people. He lived among them for fifty years short of a thousand but when the Flood overwhelmed them they were still doing evil.

 

Noah lived 950 years according to quran, and chapter Noah has 950 letters , for you this is nothing, just coincidence. 

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Hi Andalusi

 

What it appears you are saying is that you want the rules to be more flexible so that you’ll get more hits.  You decide to use the hard or soft version depending on which gives you something that sounds right and you’ll ignore the other if it doesn’t sound right.  The abbreviations are all pronounced in English as hard single characters, there’s no ambiguity here in English.  To introduce it in your search is thus false.  To do this search honestly you must only choose the single hard character when there’s a choice because that is what the original English is doing.

 

To be honest here, and to be consistent, you need to decide to either treat all versions of a character as countable so hard and soft “D”’s will be counted equally or only count the hard one’s as that is what the original English which you are trying to match here does.  We can achieve the first approach by searching the text and replacing all soft characters with their hard equivalent before we do the final search if that is your chosen approach but you can’t change the rules mid-stream if you wish to do this honestly.

 

Russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

What it appears you are saying is that you want the rules to be more flexible so that you’ll get more hits.  You decide to use the hard or soft version depending on which gives you something that sounds right and you’ll ignore the other if it doesn’t sound right.  The abbreviations are all pronounced in English as hard single characters, there’s no ambiguity here in English.  To introduce it in your search is thus false.  To do this search honestly you must only choose the single hard character when there’s a choice because that is what the original English is doing.

 

To be honest here, and to be consistent, you need to decide to either treat all versions of a character as countable so hard and soft “D”’s will be counted equally or only count the hard one’s as that is what the original English which you are trying to match here does.  We can achieve the first approach by searching the text and replacing all soft characters with their hard equivalent before we do the final search if that is your chosen approach but you can’t change the rules mid-stream if you wish to do this honestly.

 

Russell

 

just do the research and present it to me here, then we can discuss this further

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Hi Andalusi

 

I'm trying to sort out the rules before I run the analysis, if you can't tell me whether to count only hard characters or all characters then I can't analyse the text.  Either works for me but we need the ground rules set before the test is possible.

 

Russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

I'm trying to sort out the rules before I run the analysis, if you can't tell me whether to count only hard characters or all characters then I can't analyse the text. Either works for me but we need the ground rules set before the test is possible.

 

Russell

 

does not matter , you can count both hard , soft or normal letters , for example if you see soft D, you just write D, if you see hard D, you write it as D.

 

by the way i need people like you here on this forum, who want to test those examples with their own hands so they witness quran miracles with their own eyes. these stuff, is something testable, empirical evidence wich can prove that quran is from God, and when you have confirmed that, then you have confirmed automatically life after death, paradise, hell, Judgment day and so on. beacuse If that book come from God and He talks about those stuff then we can start to believe in all that this book says.

Edited by andalusi

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Just a quick query before the video starts. It states that the Quran has:

6236 verses and 78,257 words.  However, a few minutes Googling found that other sources differ...

 

6666 verses and 77,701 words   http://www.qurannetwork.com/quraninfo.html

 

6236 verses and 77,934 words  http://www.quranrecites.com/quran-information

 

6236 verses and 77,430 words  http://islamtutor.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/qurans-statistics.html

 

6236 verses and 86,872 words   http://www.jespk.net/publications/4.pdf

 

6346 verses    http://www.quran-Islam.org/main_topics/miracle_of_the_quran_(P1313).html

 

I would not like to claim which is right and which are wrong, but as they are all used as the basis for numerical "miracles", one does start to wonder...?

Anyway, let's see what the video has to say about its version of these numbers...

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Just a quick query before the video starts. It states that the Quran has:

6236 verses and 78,257 words.  However, a few minutes Googling found that other sources differ...

 

6666 verses and 77,701 words   http://www.qurannetwork.com/quraninfo.html

 

6236 verses and 77,934 words  http://www.quranrecites.com/quran-information

 

6236 verses and 77,430 words  http://islamtutor.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/qurans-statistics.html

 

6236 verses and 86,872 words   http://www.jespk.net/publications/4.pdf

 

6346 verses    http://www.quran-Islam.org/main_topics/miracle_of_the_quran_(P1313).html

 

I would not like to claim which is right and which are wrong, but as they are all used as the basis for numerical "miracles", one does start to wonder...?

Anyway, let's see what the video has to say about its version of these numbers...

 

 

6666 verses and 77,701 words

 

this is not true

 

this is true 6236 verses totally in quran. and i dont know how many words are in quran.

 

actually if God only sent down chapter numbers and verse number it would be enough to be convinced that it comes from him beacuse we can extract so many nummerical miracles just from chapter numbers and verse numbers , that it is impossible for humans to create something like that even today. not to talk about in 6th century when they did not have even paper and pens enough to write so many nummerical combinations.

Edited by andalusi

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Hi Andalusi

 

OK in that case what I will do to simplify the search is to replace every variant of each letter with just one so instead of a hard and soft letter etc we’ll end up with just one.  If it’s a ‘d’ it’s a ‘d’ regardless and I’ll search that for hits.  Does that sound reasonable?

 

Russell

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Nothing new here. I have already shown that other books can produce similar results simply by the laws of probability. I tested Ibn Warraq's "Why I am not a Muslim" (I used that book to avoid accusations of lack of relevance of subject matter). You will find the results earlier in this thread. I also did a preliminary test for the chemical elements and found the first five or six I looked for in one chapter. Again, it is merely the results of statistical probability. If you are not familiar with the maths involved, such results may well look spectacularly improbable. However, in reality they are not. It is merely confirmation bias.

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Hi Andalusi

 

OK in that case what I will do to simplify the search is to replace every variant of each letter with just one so instead of a hard and soft letter etc we’ll end up with just one.  If it’s a ‘d’ it’s a ‘d’ regardless and I’ll search that for hits.  Does that sound reasonable?

 

Russell

 

yes, do the reaserch now, then we can analyze your results and compare it with my results.

 

it is more convincing that you see these stuff with your own eyes when you test it than when someone talks about it.

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 that it is impossible for humans to create something like that even today. not to talk about in 6th century when they did not have even paper and pens enough to write so many nummerical combinations.

I think you need to do some research into the astounding level of mathematics achieved by the Greeks a thousand years befor the Quran. Check out the Antikythera mechanism and then tell me that ancient civilisations couldn't do hard maths. It is universally accepted that the knowledge of the Greeks was passed to the Byzantines and then the Arabs.

This does not assume that I think that the Quran is mathematically programmed BTW. The fact that different people use different numbers to acheive their "miracles" demonstrates this. (like the total number of words or your letters in Noah)

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I think you need to do some research into the astounding level of mathematics achieved by the Greeks a thousand years befor the Quran. Check out the Antikythera mechanism and then tell me that ancient civilisations couldn't do hard maths. It is universally accepted that the knowledge of the Greeks was passed to the Byzantines and then the Arabs.

This does not assume that I think that the Quran is mathematically programmed BTW. The fact that different people use different numbers to acheive their "miracles" demonstrates this. (like the total number of words or your letters in Noah)

 

after your claim , about 950 letter in chapter Noah and 309 words in people of the cave chapter that it is coincidence, i cant take you seriously after that statement, i just cant, you are not logical in my eyes anymore.

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Hi Andalusi

 

OK I’m just putting together a transliterated version of “The Iron” using the key you agreed to above.  I’d just like to check a couple of the character’s to ensure accuracy.  How should I translate the following?

 

ش This one is “Sh” on the latest key.  I can put in a place keeper for “Sh” if that would work best or I can translate it as “S” if it’s basically just a sibilant “S”.  Which would be more accurate?

 

ة An earlier key you sent me had this as “ah/t” but it’s missing from this latest one.

 

They are the only outstanding characters and my transliteration is complete.  I’ll translate the periodic table such that all W,Y’s and U’s are represented by the same character as you’ve indicated that this is how they are represented in Arabic.  That makes no sense in English because those three letters have very different sounds but if that’s the way you say it should be done that’s how I’ll do it.

 

With that I think we are nearly there.

 

Russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

OK I’m just putting together a transliterated version of “The Iron” using the key you agreed to above.  I’d just like to check a couple of the character’s to ensure accuracy.  How should I translate the following?

 

ش This one is “Sh” on the latest key.  I can put in a place keeper for “Sh” if that would work best or I can translate it as “S” if it’s basically just a sibilant “S”.  Which would be more accurate?

 

ة An earlier key you sent me had this as “ah/t” but it’s missing from this latest one.

 

They are the only outstanding characters and my transliteration is complete.  I’ll translate the periodic table such that all W,Y’s and U’s are represented by the same character as you’ve indicated that this is how they are represented in Arabic.  That makes no sense in English because those three letters have very different sounds but if that’s the way you say it should be done that’s how I’ll do it.

 

With that I think we are nearly there.

 

Russell

 

 

 

ش This one is “Sh” on the latest key.  I can put in a place keeper for “Sh” if that would work best or I can translate it as “S” if it’s basically just a sibilant “S”.  Which would be more accurate?

 

i did not count chemical element with that letter at all, beacuse there is not Sh in any of chemical element, i only counted it as letter when it was counted between abbreviation and end point, or between abbreviations , but never as abbreviation itself. do you understand?

 

 

ة An earlier key you sent me had this as “ah/t” but it’s missing from this latest one.

 

that is "T"

 

 

I’ll translate the periodic table such that all W,Y’s and U’s are represented by the same character as you’ve indicated that this is how they are represented in Arabic. 

 

W,V, and U but not Y

 

i used that letter to count only V

Edited by andalusi

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after your claim , about 950 letter in chapter Noah and 309 words in people of the cave chapter that it is coincidence, i cant take you seriously after that statement, i just cant, you are not logical in my eyes anymore.

But your eyes see a statistical probability as a miracle, and that is your problem. Your confirmation bias makes you dismiss the evidence of the real world in favour of the miraculous because that is what you expect to find.

 

You do reasilse that I have never taken anything you say seriously as you display an obvious lack of logic. However, I will still attempt to explain where you are going wrong in the same way a teacher will persevere with a slow pupil. They don't just give up. They give that pupil even more attention. Every time I see you post something that is not supported by real-world evidence, I will point this out.

 

Your claims regarding numerical miracles have been shown to be fabricated as well as statistically probable. Cases in point are the different numbers of letters quoted in Noah and the different number of words in the Quran. It does not matter which is right or wrong as each different value is used to prove a miracle. This alone proves that it is all nonsense.

 

I think I need to repeat another point that I have made several times but you seem to be having trouble accepting.

A miracle is something that is IMPOSSIBLE under the laws of nature.

If something is POSSIBLE under the laws of nature, it cannot be a miracle, no matter how IMPROBABLE it may seem.

That, my illogical friend, is logical!

Edited by QED

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A miracle is something that is IMPOSSIBLE under the laws of nature.

 

 

If something is POSSIBLE under the laws of nature, it cannot be a miracle, no matter how IMPROBABLE it may seem.

 

 

good, then explain to me how can illitarate man who could not write his own name nor read a sentence come with a book, full of scintific statment wich were confirmed 1400 years after, future statement wich came true, wich we can see now, program it nummerically with so big numbers that it is not possible with normal calulators to calulate it. not only that, make it lingustic miracle, correct position of verses and words on correct places. and finally to attachj healing properties of Quran, Islamic exorcism, quranic verses are recited over the sick person, the body start to react to the recitation, that it start to move itself without using force 1%. explain to me this phenomenom, you recite a book, and these words somehow impact the body, and parts of the body start to move, arms start to levitate without using 1% force to lift them up, and many many other phenomenom wich occur during Islamic exorcism.

 

all of these stuff are in one book wich came from a man who is illitarate, is that miracle, yes it is a miracle, but since it comes from God from that point it is not miracle, but from your non-muslim prespective it came from Muhammed, beacuse nobody else claimed to helped him or write it for him.

 

explain to us here how it is possible that such book can come from illitarate person?

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