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andalusi

Numerical Miracles In The Quran, Real Evidence

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When I used to participate on Newsgroups way back when, there was a rather astute Muslim on the soc.religion.Islam section called Abdulrahman Lomax who rather thoroughly disproved this mathematical claim.

 

nobody had disproved this so far, trust me i have met both christians, muslims, atheists and nobody had yet disproved it. 

 

i have counted nummerical miracle by myself with corpus quran search program, so how can anyone disprove me on this when i have done research in deatils on this topic.

 

if that Lomax have disprove then show me evidence.

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Peace be with you Andalusi,

 

nobody had disproved this so far, trust me i have met both christians, muslims, atheists and nobody had yet disproved it. 

 

i have counted nummerical miracle by myself with corpus quran search program, so how can anyone disprove me on this when i have done research in deatils on this topic.

 

if that Lomax have disprove then show me evidence.

 

I was never interested in the debate even though it did spark some lively dialogues among the Muslim posters. I tried to look up some posts by Abdulrahman Lomax and interestingly an online book came up. This version is catalogued on a Bahai site, not sure why they would be interested in it, but anyway it may be of interest to you. I'd also recommend simply looking up his name in google, he became somewhat of an "authority" on the contrary side.

 

Here one link to his book: http://bahai-library.com/lomax_number_nineteen_quran

 

 

Pax et bonum

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Peace be with you Andalusi,

 

 

I was never interested in the debate even though it did spark some lively dialogues among the Muslim posters. I tried to look up some posts by Abdulrahman Lomax and interestingly an online book came up. This version is catalogued on a Bahai site, not sure why they would be interested in it, but anyway it may be of interest to you. I'd also recommend simply looking up his name in google, he became somewhat of an "authority" on the contrary side.

 

Here one link to his book: http://bahai-library.com/lomax_number_nineteen_quran

 

 

Pax et bonum

 

he was critizising Rashad khalifa and his number 19 miracle in the quran wich was really fraud, i admit that and muslims admit that, but nobody present those frauds from Rashad Khalifa here on this forum.

so to connect lomax and his critics on these examples on this topic here is like shooting in wrong direction.

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Andalusi, any difference when you compare Hans vs Warsh versions? Are the results the same?

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Andalusi, any difference when you compare Hans vs Warsh versions? Are the results the same?

 

yes

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Peace Andalusi,

 

I had asked whether the results pan out the same way if you use the Warsh version of the Quran, to which you said: 

 

yes

 

I'm wondering if you can actually demonstrate this to be true, for one we know the number of verses as well as their placement differs between the two versions. Here is a table showing some of the differences between chapters:

 

HafsWarshVerse.jpg

 

The above was taken from page 7 on the following PDF: http://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf 

Titles, Which Quran? By Layth Al-Shaiban,

 

As you can see, the number of the verses differ and consequently whether a chapter will contain an odd number or an even number of verses changes. So I am wondering what your results would be if you took the Warsh version of the Quran and did a similar analysis to the one table you provided in your original post, where a comparison between odd and even verses was made between the chapters.

 

Pax

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Continuation of above...

 

Appears the end to my post was cut off! Anyway, with the table from the free-minds website in mind, I'm curious to now what your results would be if you did a similar comparison between the number of odd and even verses between the Quran's chapters, as you showed in that one large table in your original post.

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Continuation of above...

 

Appears the end to my post was cut off! Anyway, with the table from the free-minds website in mind, I'm curious to now what your results would be if you did a similar comparison between the number of odd and even verses between the Quran's chapters, as you showed in that one large table in your original post.

 

Hafs recitation style is most common in the world, while warsh style is practiced only in north africa, that is only different spelling while compared to hafs. i dont know if it has 6214 verses, i have never seen such quran.

 

for us muslims this quran Hafs recitation style wich we use today wich is most common in the world is accepted by most muslims.

 

to make analysis of warsh i need to first read it and then i can judge.

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amazing amazing ATTENTION PEOPLE

 

 

2hpjcdg.jpg

 

for your verification, copy

 

111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111211111111111111111011111111 =
15873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015887301587301587301573015873 x 7

When read from right to left, we have:
111111110111111111111111112111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 =
15873015730158730158730158873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873015873 x 7

 

and put this big number in calculator

http://www.javascripter.net/math/calculators/100digitbigintcalculator.htm

 

Edited by andalusi

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Hafs recitation style is most common in the world, while warsh style is practiced only in north africa, that is only different spelling while compared to hafs. i dont know if it has 6214 verses, i have never seen such quran.

 

for us muslims this quran Hafs recitation style wich we use today wich is most common in the world is accepted by most muslims.

 

to make analysis of warsh i need to first read it and then i can judge.

 

I would be interested in learning how many Muslims follow the different versions of the Quran, would you happen to have any statistics on that? But either way, I think you would have to agree that some of the numerical phenomena you apparently find in the Hafs version can not be reproduced in the Warsh, and so in reality the results are not the same. 

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Furthermore a lot of this hinges on how the Quran is divided into verses. Apparently there is not consensus on what constitutes a verse such that there are at least five different systems of numbering the verses: 

 

 

Ayah (pl. Ayat), Verses. Ayah is a word which signifies "sign." It was used by Muhammad for short sections or verses of his revelation. The division of verses differs in different editions of the Arabic Qur'an. The number of verses in the Arabic Qur'an are recorded after the title of the Surah, and the verses distinguished in the text by a small cypher or circle. The early readers of the Qur'an did not agree as to the original position of these circles, and so it happens that there are five different systems of numbering the verses: 

Taken from: http://muslimcanada.org/quran_division.html

 

What's unclear to me is whether the division between verses was also thought to be inspired, or whether this is more the work of the early Ummah, perhaps a Muslim reader can clarify? Either way, with five different systems of allocating verses, and different qirat that do not even agree on the number of verses, how can we say a miracle is taking place? First what the "miracle" is would have to be defined, and it would seem if the Hafs version is singled out, it would ultimately downcast the other versions which are also said to be inspired. 

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Hi Andalusi

 

The board seems to have had a glitch because much of our previous conversation has disappeared.  To recap, the claim was made that items from the periodic table were found encoded in the quran and that this was proof of the quran’s divine nature because you would not expect to find such items correctly encoded in there.  I presented my findings of over 89000 correctly correlated hits from “Moby Di-ck” for objects from the periodic table including a single chapter that contained every single object.

 

The discussion continued and we refined our search methodology so that the search was limited to only counting the first occurrence of an abbreviation in any given chapter plus the distance from the first to second and the distance from the second to the third occurrence because you have done all of these searches.  I suspect that this is a post hoc justification because the quran has short chapters and probably only contains one or at most a few hits for these items but I’ll allow it to demonstrate the point here. Because the quran has short chapters I pointed out that it will have significantly more hits from the first occurrence to the end of the chapter than any book with longer chapters simply because the counts from long chapters will exceed the numbers we are seeking in every case but this is not the case for any book with short chapters such as the quran.  I included the number of hits for the last item in the chapter to compensate.  In this final search I’ve excluded the last hits completely to remove this complication.

 

So what would we expect to find.  If the quran is divine and what you are seeing is something that will not happen by chance alone in other books you’d expect to find no hits from another book using these methods.  If, however, the hits are generated by the methodology of the search rather than these items being encoded in there you’d expect to find hits from other sources.  Given that last hits will be virtually none existent for any book with long chapters you’d expect to find less hits overall because this number is excluded but a significant number of hits should still be expected if it is the method rather than the book that produces these results.

 

Lets see what we find in “Moby Di-ck”. Using only the methods you have used and totally excluding the hits for the last occurrence in a chapter, even though you have included these, we find the following.:-

Chapter 42 'The Whiteness of The Whale' 20 Hits.

Chapter 72 'The Monkey Rope' 20 Hits.

Chapter 110 'Queequeg in His Coffin' 20 Hits.

Chapter 135 'The Chase. Third Day' 21 Hits.

Chapter 19 'The Prophet' 21 Hits.

Chapter 39 'First Night Watch' 21 Hits.

Chapter 101 'The Decanter' 21 Hits.

Chapter 50 'Ahabs Boat and Crew. Fedallah' 22 Hits.

Chapter 89 'Fast Fish and Loose Fish' 22 Hits.

Chapter 93 'The Castaway' 22 Hits.

Chapter 55 'Of the Monstrous Pictures of Whales' 22 Hits.

Chapter 88 'Schools and Schoolmasters' 23 Hits.

Chapter 48 'The First Lowering' 24 Hits.

Chapter 53 'The Gam' 24 Hits.

Chapter 106 'Ahabs Leg' 25 Hits.

Chapter 100 'Leg and Arm' 26 Hits.

Chapter 133 'The Chase First Day' 26 Hits.

 

Now one chapter in detail so you can check the methodology.  Let’s do Chapter 81 which also contains 26 hits.

 

Chapter 81 'The Pequod Meets The Virgin'

Seeking 'h' N1 W1

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated...

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 49 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Number 1

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met T*he ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 49 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Weight 1

The predestinated… day arrived and we duly met T*he ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'he' N2 W4

Character Position 3 Letter Position Matches Atomic Weight 2

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Letter Position in line Matches Atomic Weight 2

T*he predestinated…

Seeking 'be' N4 W9

Character Position 1004 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 9

Hes out of oil and has come a *begging.

Seeking 'b' N5 W11

Character Position 467 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Number 11

While yet some distance from the Pequod she rounded to and dropping a *boat her captain was impelled towards us impatiently standing in the bows instead of the stern.

Seeking 'c' N6 W12

Character Position 70 Word Position Matches Atomic Number 12

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Deri*ck De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 70 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 12

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Deri*ck De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'o' N8 W16

Character Position 88 Word Position Matches Atomic Number 16

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master *of Bremen.

Character Position 88 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 16

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master *of Bremen.

Seeking 'na' N11 W23

Character Position 14 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 11

The predesti*nated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 14 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 11

The predesti*nated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'p' N15 W31

Character Position 6 Words to End of Line Matches Atomic Weight 15

The *predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 's' N16 W32

Character Position 11 Letters Between First and Second Matches Atomic Number 32

The prede*stinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'sc' N21 W45

Character Position 747 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Number 45

Not that said Stubb no no its a coffee pot Mr Starbuck he*s coming off to make us our coffee is the Yarman dont you see that big tin can there alongside of…

Character Position 748 Words to End of Line Matches Atomic Weight 21

Not that said Stubb no no its a coffee pot Mr Starbuck he*s coming off to make us our coffee is the Yarman dont you see that big tin can there alongside of him

Seeking 'v' N23 W51

Character Position 28 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 23

The predestinated day arri*ved and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 28 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 23

The predestinated day arri*ved and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

 

So what did we find?  I’ve shown before that your methods pull hits out of random letters and here we see that it also pulls hits out of another book that we both agree is not divine.  Is that your idea of evidence that the quran is a miracle?

 

Russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

You talked earlier about the miracles of 7 and 19 and how they showed the divine nature of the quran.  Let’s examine “Moby Di-ck” in a similar vein and see what we find.

 

I’d like to do this scientifically/mathematically so let’s calculate the odds against any given chapter passing the tests I will apply.

 

Chapter 41 is the title chapter of the book.

 

If we count the characters in the chapter completely including all spaces and punctuation we get 21980 which is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Next count the sentences in this chapter.  There are 91 which is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.  The chances of any chapter passing these two tests is 1 in 7*7 or 1 in 49.  In other words if you read around 50 chapters you are likely to find just one that will pass these two tests.

 

Next construct a number using the character location in the alphabet, 1 for ‘A’ 2 for ‘B’ etc and add the character position in the text in front of each.  So the word ‘cba’ would come out like this 1 3 2 2 3 1 etc.  Do that for the whole chapter and you’ll get a number that is 76819 digits long and it is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.  The chances of any given chapter passing these three tests is 1 in 49 * 7 or 1 in 343.  The book has under 150 chapters so you’d have to read two books the size of “Moby Di-ck” to stand much of a chance of finding a chapter that could pass these three tests.

 

Next total the ASCII codes for all the characters in the chapter and suffix each with it’s character position number.  You’ll get a number that is 157965 digits long and is divisible by 7 with no remainder.  That’s now odds of 1 in 2401 that you’ll find a chapter that can pass these tests.

 

Following your example I created a magic number code in which I assigned the letters of the alphabet a number as follows. A=1, b=2, c=3, d=4, e=5, f=6, g=7, h=8, i=9, j=10, k=20, l=30, m=40, n=50, o=60, p=70, q=80, r=90, s=100, t=200, u=300, v=400, w=500, x=600, y=700, z=800.  Now construct a number by adding all of the magic numbers for the entire chapter together in a row.  This will produce a 31188 digit number that is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Next repeat the above but suffix each character with it’s character position number and you’ll get a 108007 digit number that is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Next create a number by adding the character numbers into words and suffixing each with the word number and you’ll get a 17799 digit number that is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

That’s seven tests each with a chance of one in seven giving a total probability that any given chapter will pass all of these tests of 1 in 823543.  You’d have to read a lot of books to get through that many chapters wouldn’t you?

 

Now for the same chapter add together, as above, all the ASCII codes for every character in there and you’ll get a 59171 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Then use the Magic code above and add all the digits together and again you’ll get a 31188 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

And finally add the character numbers together into words, as above, and suffix each word with it’s word number and you’ll get a 17799 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Now a bit of maths will show you that the chances of finding any given chapter which can pass all of those tests is 1 in 5,648,681,437.  I don’t think any of us will live long enough to read that many books but wait there’s more.

 

Lets examine Chapter 126 called “The Life-Buoy”.

 

It’s chapter number, 126, is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

The chapter length, counting all characters including spaces and punctuation is 7532 which is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Count all the occurrences of the letter G, the seventh letter of the alphabet, and you’ll find 133 which is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Create a number by adding together all the letter position numbers from the alphabet as described above and suffixing each with its position number in the chapter and you’ll get a 22181 digit number that is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Create a number by adding the characters magic numbers together and suffixing each by its position number and you’ll get a 32455 digit number that is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Create a number by adding the characters magic numbers together and prefixing each by its position number and you’ll get another 32455 digit number that is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

That’s 7 tests with a one in seven chance each for a combined unlikelihood of 1 in 16807.  But wait there’s more.

 

If you create a number by counting the number of letters in each word and adding the result together you’ll get a 1383 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Now count the G’s in the chapter and again you’ll get 133 which is divisible by 19 with no remainder and the answer is 7.

 

Now create a number by adding the character position number and suffixing each with its position number and you’ll get a 22181 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Now create a number by adding together the decimal ASCII codes for each character and suffixing each with its position number and you’ll get a 49107 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

And finally create a number as above but prefix each by its position number and again you’ll get a different 49107 digit number that is also divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

That gives you a total probability against finding a chapter that can pass all those tests of 1 in 14,274,217,991,299.  That’s a big number.  How many chapters do you think you could read in a day, a year, in the rest of your life?  How miraculous is “Moby Di-ck” that it can pass such a long list of improbable tests?

 

Russell

Edited by russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

The board seems to have had a glitch because much of our previous conversation has disappeared.  To recap, the claim was made that items from the periodic table were found encoded in the quran and that this was proof of the quran’s divine nature because you would not expect to find such items correctly encoded in there.  I presented my findings of over 89000 correctly correlated hits from “Moby Di-ck” for objects from the periodic table including a single chapter that contained every single object.

 

The discussion continued and we refined our search methodology so that the search was limited to only counting the first occurrence of an abbreviation in any given chapter plus the distance from the first to second and the distance from the second to the third occurrence because you have done all of these searches.  I suspect that this is a post hoc justification because the quran has short chapters and probably only contains one or at most a few hits for these items but I’ll allow it to demonstrate the point here. Because the quran has short chapters I pointed out that it will have significantly more hits from the first occurrence to the end of the chapter than any book with longer chapters simply because the counts from long chapters will exceed the numbers we are seeking in every case but this is not the case for any book with short chapters such as the quran.  I included the number of hits for the last item in the chapter to compensate.  In this final search I’ve excluded the last hits completely to remove this complication.

 

So what would we expect to find.  If the quran is divine and what you are seeing is something that will not happen by chance alone in other books you’d expect to find no hits from another book using these methods.  If, however, the hits are generated by the methodology of the search rather than these items being encoded in there you’d expect to find hits from other sources.  Given that last hits will be virtually none existent for any book with long chapters you’d expect to find less hits overall because this number is excluded but a significant number of hits should still be expected if it is the method rather than the book that produces these results.

 

Lets see what we find in “Moby Di-ck”. Using only the methods you have used and totally excluding the hits for the last occurrence in a chapter, even though you have included these, we find the following.:-

Chapter 42 'The Whiteness of The Whale' 20 Hits.

Chapter 72 'The Monkey Rope' 20 Hits.

Chapter 110 'Queequeg in His Coffin' 20 Hits.

Chapter 135 'The Chase. Third Day' 21 Hits.

Chapter 19 'The Prophet' 21 Hits.

Chapter 39 'First Night Watch' 21 Hits.

Chapter 101 'The Decanter' 21 Hits.

Chapter 50 'Ahabs Boat and Crew. Fedallah' 22 Hits.

Chapter 89 'Fast Fish and Loose Fish' 22 Hits.

Chapter 93 'The Castaway' 22 Hits.

Chapter 55 'Of the Monstrous Pictures of Whales' 22 Hits.

Chapter 88 'Schools and Schoolmasters' 23 Hits.

Chapter 48 'The First Lowering' 24 Hits.

Chapter 53 'The Gam' 24 Hits.

Chapter 106 'Ahabs Leg' 25 Hits.

Chapter 100 'Leg and Arm' 26 Hits.

Chapter 133 'The Chase First Day' 26 Hits.

 

Now one chapter in detail so you can check the methodology.  Let’s do Chapter 81 which also contains 26 hits.

 

Chapter 81 'The Pequod Meets The Virgin'

Seeking 'h' N1 W1

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated...

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 49 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Number 1

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met T*he ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 49 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Weight 1

The predestinated… day arrived and we duly met T*he ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'he' N2 W4

Character Position 3 Letter Position Matches Atomic Weight 2

T*he predestinated…

Character Position 3 Letter Position in line Matches Atomic Weight 2

T*he predestinated…

Seeking 'be' N4 W9

Character Position 1004 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 9

Hes out of oil and has come a *begging.

Seeking 'b' N5 W11

Character Position 467 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Number 11

While yet some distance from the Pequod she rounded to and dropping a *boat her captain was impelled towards us impatiently standing in the bows instead of the stern.

Seeking 'c' N6 W12

Character Position 70 Word Position Matches Atomic Number 12

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Deri*ck De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 70 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 12

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Deri*ck De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'o' N8 W16

Character Position 88 Word Position Matches Atomic Number 16

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master *of Bremen.

Character Position 88 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 16

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master *of Bremen.

Seeking 'na' N11 W23

Character Position 14 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 11

The predesti*nated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 14 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 11

The predesti*nated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'p' N15 W31

Character Position 6 Words to End of Line Matches Atomic Weight 15

The *predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 's' N16 W32

Character Position 11 Letters Between First and Second Matches Atomic Number 32

The prede*stinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'sc' N21 W45

Character Position 747 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Number 45

Not that said Stubb no no its a coffee pot Mr Starbuck he*s coming off to make us our coffee is the Yarman dont you see that big tin can there alongside of…

Character Position 748 Words to End of Line Matches Atomic Weight 21

Not that said Stubb no no its a coffee pot Mr Starbuck he*s coming off to make us our coffee is the Yarman dont you see that big tin can there alongside of him

Seeking 'v' N23 W51

Character Position 28 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 23

The predestinated day arri*ved and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 28 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 23

The predestinated day arri*ved and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

 

So what did we find?  I’ve shown before that your methods pull hits out of random letters and here we see that it also pulls hits out of another book that we both agree is not divine.  Is that your idea of evidence that the quran is a miracle?

 

Russell

 

 

 

The board seems to have had a glitch because much of our previous conversation has disappeared. 

 

it was me who removed it, and i will remove all your post about chemical elements as long as you dont count as i did in the quran,

i want only first occurence, and now you look even in the whole book moby wich is 135 chapter while we only find in only one chapter with 29 verses

 

Seeking 'b' N5 W11

Character Position 467 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Number 11

While yet some distance from the Pequod she rounded to and dropping a *boat her captain was impelled towards us impatiently standing in the bows instead of the stern.

 

no, and i say 1000000 times NO, you dont count from first occurence, if you find first occcurence of "B" to match , then you can find between first and second, or second or third, or last whatever, but you allways have to count from the first, if you dont count from first and i want you to choose only 1 chapter instead of the whole book, beacuse how can you compare whole book with only one chapter when in that chapter you can only see one occurence of some chemical elements, like "Ga", "Rd" or "Nd" and they matched perfectly.

 

so i want that you choose only 1 chapter in moby instead of search in the all chapters, and i want you to count from first occurence, if you dont do that, then i have to remove all your post fom this topuic and we will end our discussion.

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Hi Andalusi

 

You talked earlier about the miracles of 7 and 19 and how they showed the divine nature of the quran.  Let’s examine “Moby Di-ck” in a similar vein and see what we find.

 

I’d like to do this scientifically/mathematically so let’s calculate the odds against any given chapter passing the tests I will apply.

 

Chapter 41 is the title chapter of the book.

 

If we count the characters in the chapter completely including all spaces and punctuation we get 21980 which is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Next count the sentences in this chapter.  There are 91 which is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.  The chances of any chapter passing these two tests is 1 in 7*7 or 1 in 49.  In other words if you read around 50 chapters you are likely to find just one that will pass these two tests.

 

Next construct a number using the character location in the alphabet, 1 for ‘A’ 2 for ‘B’ etc and add the character position in the text in front of each.  So the word ‘cba’ would come out like this 1 3 2 2 3 1 etc.  Do that for the whole chapter and you’ll get a number that is 76819 digits long and it is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.  The chances of any given chapter passing these three tests is 1 in 49 * 7 or 1 in 343.  The book has under 150 chapters so you’d have to read two books the size of “Moby Di-ck” to stand much of a chance of finding a chapter that could pass these three tests.

 

Next total the ASCII codes for all the characters in the chapter and suffix each with it’s character position number.  You’ll get a number that is 157965 digits long and is divisible by 7 with no remainder.  That’s now odds of 1 in 2401 that you’ll find a chapter that can pass these tests.

 

Following your example I created a magic number code in which I assigned the letters of the alphabet a number as follows. A=1, b=2, c=3, d=4, e=5, f=6, g=7, h=8, i=9, j=10, k=20, l=30, m=40, n=50, o=60, p=70, q=80, r=90, s=100, t=200, u=300, v=400, w=500, x=600, y=700, z=800.  Now construct a number by adding all of the magic numbers for the entire chapter together in a row.  This will produce a 31188 digit number that is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Next repeat the above but suffix each character with it’s character position number and you’ll get a 108007 digit number that is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Next create a number by adding the character numbers into words and suffixing each with the word number and you’ll get a 17799 digit number that is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

That’s seven tests each with a chance of one in seven giving a total probability that any given chapter will pass all of these tests of 1 in 823543.  You’d have to read a lot of books to get through that many chapters wouldn’t you?

 

Now for the same chapter add together, as above, all the ASCII codes for every character in there and you’ll get a 59171 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Then use the Magic code above and add all the digits together and again you’ll get a 31188 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

And finally add the character numbers together into words, as above, and suffix each word with it’s word number and you’ll get a 17799 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Now a bit of maths will show you that the chances of finding any given chapter which can pass all of those tests is 1 in 5,648,681,437.  I don’t think any of us will live long enough to read that many books but wait there’s more.

 

Lets examine Chapter 126 called “The Life-Buoy”.

 

It’s chapter number, 126, is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

The chapter length, counting all characters including spaces and punctuation is 7532 which is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Count all the occurrences of the letter G, the seventh letter of the alphabet, and you’ll find 133 which is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Create a number by adding together all the letter position numbers from the alphabet as described above and suffixing each with its position number in the chapter and you’ll get a 22181 digit number that is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Create a number by adding the characters magic numbers together and suffixing each by its position number and you’ll get a 32455 digit number that is divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

Create a number by adding the characters magic numbers together and prefixing each by its position number and you’ll get another 32455 digit number that is also divisible by 7 with no remainder.

 

That’s 7 tests with a one in seven chance each for a combined unlikelihood of 1 in 16807.  But wait there’s more.

 

If you create a number by counting the number of letters in each word and adding the result together you’ll get a 1383 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Now count the G’s in the chapter and again you’ll get 133 which is divisible by 19 with no remainder and the answer is 7.

 

Now create a number by adding the character position number and suffixing each with its position number and you’ll get a 22181 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

Now create a number by adding together the decimal ASCII codes for each character and suffixing each with its position number and you’ll get a 49107 digit number that is divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

And finally create a number as above but prefix each by its position number and again you’ll get a different 49107 digit number that is also divisible by 19 with no remainder.

 

That gives you a total probability against finding a chapter that can pass all those tests of 1 in 14,274,217,991,299.  That’s a big number.  How many chapters do you think you could read in a day, a year, in the rest of your life?  How miraculous is “Moby Di-ck” that it can pass such a long list of improbable tests?

 

Russell

 

this is totally rubbish

 

d you know why? beacuse you are counting in your own world, why dont you clearly show to me where and how you count it and why would it be special

 

 

let me give you some help if you find this then you have achieve some of quranic programming

 

 

try to program numbers like this

1.ABCDEF / 7 = NO DECIMALS

2.FEDCBA / 7 = NO DECIMALS

3.123456 / 7 = NO DECIMALS

4.654321 / 7 = NO DECIMALS

 

as we have in this example

xfxmjn.jpg

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Hi Andalusi

So what did we find?  I’ve shown before that your methods pull hits out of random letters and here we see that it also pulls hits out of another book that we both agree is not divine.  Is that your idea of evidence that the quran is a miracle?

 

Russell

You know that whatever results you get, Andalusi will just say that your method is wrong.

Why not agree on just one particular search criterion and both use that one, and see what happens?

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You know that whatever results you get, Andalusi will just say that your method is wrong.

Why not agree on just one particular search criterion and both use that one, and see what happens?

 

i tell him all the time but he dont want to follow my advice beacuse it will never give him any good results, and he knows that, that is why he avoids that.

 

i counted allways first occurence  and that is why i ask him to do, i JUST COUNT THE FIRST OCCURENCE NOT SECOND, THIRD, OR LAST, NO JUST FIRST OCCURENCE, if he do that then he has done almost as i did. and it is not ok to search in whole moby book, he need to pick one chapter just like we picked one chapter in the quran most logical where you could find chemical elements in it, and that was only element chapter in the quran, called Iron.

Edited by andalusi

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i tell him all the time but he dont want to follow my advice beacuse it will never give him any good results, and he knows that, that is why he avoids that.

 

i counted allways first occurence  and that is why i ask him to do, i JUST COUNT THE FIRST OCCURENCE NOT SECOND, THIRD, OR LAST, NO JUST FIRST OCCURENCE, if he do that then he has done almost as i did. and it is not ok to search in whole moby book, he need to pick one chapter just like we picked one chapter in the quran most logical where you could find chemical elements in it, and that was only element chapter in the quran, called Iron.

So, to be clear, reviewing your original post on the subject.

The task is to find the symbol for an element occurring the number of letters or words, (including spaces or not including spaces?), from the start of the paragraph,  that matches its atomic number?

Also, the number of letters or words between occurrance.

Also the number of letters or words from the end of the paragraph to the element.

The letters of the element do not have to be in the correct order (eg Fe or Ef will do).

Edited by QED

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Andalusi.

A thought just occurred to me. The symbols for the chemical elements are an international standard with no Arabic translation (or any other language) - look at the Periodic Table in any language, the symbols are always the same. As some Latin letters have no Arabic equivalent, the search must be done on a translation using a Latin alphabet. I had a quick look at the examples in Celakil's book and many of them don't seem to relate to either translations or standard transliterations of the Latin letters.

 

The whole exercise is pointless at best and deliberately misleading at worst.

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Hi Andalusi

 

I had sort of suspected that you were responsible for the deletion but I always try to give my opponents in such discussions the benefit of the doubt.  I don’t like to think that they will resort to dishonest tactics.

 

Good catch there by the way, that’s the sort of error you should be pointing out to me.  I had forgotten to add the “Case Insensitive” flag to my algorithm so it was searching for the first, second and third occurrence of just the lower case character.  That’s fixed now and what follows is the results.

 

I have no problems with choosing only one chapter but the figures I gave showing the number of hits in each chapter is how I choose which chapter to examine in detail.  If you want me to hide this important evidence from you I can but does that really make sense.

 

Yes the chapters in “Moby Di-ck” are longer than the chapters in the quran and, as I have pointed out before, that is a detriment to my search given the rules you have laid out.  Long chapters mean that first hits to the end of the chapter will never match while for the short chapters such as those in the quran this is not the case so you will get more hits by chance alone.  Do you understand that?  To create a level playing field here, if such is actually necessary, you should discount all hits from an occurrence to the end of the chapter, you have 8 of those leaving you with 20 hits in total, to be fair.

 

Here are the totals for the chapters in the book.  As I said before I can hide this info but it’s very telling so I think its better that people can see it.  If you don’t wish to see it please skip the following list.  You’ll note that your correction above, case insensitivity, has increased my count of chapters with 20 hits or more to 28.

 

Chapter 10 'A Bosom Friend’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 44 'The Chart’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 50 'Ahabs Boat and Crew. Fedallah’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 69 'The Funeral’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 72 'The Monkey Rope’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 80 'The Nut’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 108 'Ahab and the Carpenter’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 110 'Queequeg in His Coffin’ 20 Matches.

Chapter 19 'The Prophet’ 21 Matches.

Chapter 42 'The Whiteness of The Whale’ 21 Matches.

Chapter 82 'The Honour and Glory of Whaling’ 21 Matches.

Chapter 101 'The Decanter’ 21 Matches.

Chapter 135 'The Chase. Third Day’ 21 Matches.

Chapter 55 'Of the Monstrous Pictures of Whales’ 22 Matches.

Chapter 89 'Fast Fish and Loose Fish’ 22 Matches.

Chapter 93 'The Castaway’ 22 Matches.

Chapter 95 'The Cassock’ 22 Matches.

Chapter 40 'Midnight Forecastle’ 23 Matches.

Chapter 106 'Ahabs Leg’ 24 Matches.

Chapter 120 'The Deck Towards the End of the First Night Watch’ 24 Matches.

Chapter 53 'The Gam’ 24 Matches.

Chapter 88 'Schools and Schoolmasters’ 24 Matches.

Chapter 48 'The First Lowering’ 25 Matches.

Chapter 39 'First Night Watch' 26 Matches.

Chapter 71 'The Jeroboams Story' 26 Matches.

Chapter 100 'Leg and Arm' 26 Matches.

Chapter 133 'The Chase First Day' 26 Matches.

 

And again one chapter in detail so you can check my methods.

 

Chapter 81 'The Pequod Meets The Virgin'

Seeking 'h' N1 W1

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 3 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Chapter Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 3 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Weight 1

T*he predestinated day arrived…

Character Position 49 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Number 1

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met T*he ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 49 Words Between Second and Third Matches Atomic Weight 1

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met T*he ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'he' N2 W4

Character Position 3 Letter Position in Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 2

T*he predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 3 Letter Position in line Matches Atomic Weight 2

T*he predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'be' N4 W9

Character Position 1004 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 9

Go along with you cried Flask its a lamp feeder and an oil can. Hes out of oil and has come a *begging.

Seeking 'b' N5 W11

Character Position 91 Letters to End of Line Matches Atomic Weight 5

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of B*Bremen.

Seeking 'c' N6 W12

Character Position 70 Word Position in Chapter Matches Atomic Number 12

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Deric*ck De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 70 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 12

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Deric*ck De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'o' N8 W16

Character Position 88 Word Position in Chapter Matches Atomic Number 16

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master o*of Bremen.

Character Position 88 Word Position in Line Matches Atomic Number 16

The predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master o*of Bremen.

Seeking 'na' N11 W23

Character Position 14 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 11

The predestin*nated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 14 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 11

The predestin*nated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 'p' N15 W31

Character Position 6 Words to End of Line Matches Atomic Weight 15

The p*predestinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Seeking 's' N16 W32

Character Position 11 Letters Between First and Second Matches Atomic Number 32

The predes*stinated day arrived and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

At one time

Seeking 'sc' N21 W45

Character Position 747 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Number 45

Not that said Stubb no no its a coffee pot Mr Starbuck he*s coming off to make us our coffee is the Yarman dont you see that big tin can there alongside of hi

Character Position 748 Words to End of Line Matches Atomic Weight 21

Not that said Stubb no no its a coffee pot Mr Starbuck hes* coming off to make us our coffee is the Yarman dont you see that big tin can there alongside of him

Seeking 'v' N23 W51

Character Position 28 Letters to start of Chapter Matches Atomic Weight 23

The predestinated day arriv*ved and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

Character Position 28 Letters to start of Line Matches Atomic Weight 23

The predestinated day arriv*ved and we duly met the ship Jungfrau Derick De Deer master of Bremen.

This pass located 26 Matches in Chapter 81.

 

If you have a problem with my matching the distance between the first and second hits without first finding a match for the first hit you will have to deduct one of my hits from the above leaving 25 hits for this chapter.  I have no problems with that.

 

As I explained before I don’t need to show that “Moby Di-ck” has more hits than the quran rather what I wish to show you and what I’m seeing here time and again is that, whichever way you slice and dice these figures the ‘miracle’ of the quran that you are demonstrating here is there in other books too.  It even exists in strings of random letters made up to look like English sentences.  Is that really your idea of a miracle?

 

Russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

The methods I used were explained in brief but I can spell them out if you don’t understand the english versions.  Please, there are a lot of them so can you just pick one or two and I’ll explain in detail.  The results, likewise, are rather cumbersome so I can’t include them in detail but I can supply the code I used if that will help you.  Then you’ll be able to run it yourself over any text you like.  Remember that many of those numbers were over 10000 digits long so including them in a post on this board isn’t practical.  If you really want that please supply some other location that can accept huge strings of numbers and I will happily upload them all for you to peruse.

 

Now you went through a process in which you assigned numbers to letters in a few different ways and you found significant results.  The methods you used to do this were arbitrary and you ignored methods that seemed the next logical step in a number of cases to get a result that looked right.  You added up letter numbers but prefixed them with the letter positions ignoring the far simpler just add the letter numbers approach.  There’s only one rational reason for this and it’s pretty obvious, if you’d included this simple and obvious test the quran would have failed and that would not serve your purpose.

 

Again we see that the sorts of results you strung together to produce your ‘miracle’ are found in other books in great numbers.  Is it really a miracle to point out that the quran passes the same sorts of tests as every other book out there?

 

Russell

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Hi QED

 

I can handle the idea of choosing just one or two methods and doing the search again.  I’m not sure if Andalusi has access to the resources to achieve this but I’m up for it if he does.

 

Russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

What you are not seeing is that I have been following your advice one bit at a time.  I started out pointing out that “Moby Di-ck” contained around 89000 hits.  Actually using the more refined methods you have used that figure is far higher but that includes all hits just so people get a feel for how really really common such findings are, despite your claims that such findings must be rare and so indicative of divine intervention.

 

You then insisted on limiting the search to just the first occurrence though when I checked you had included other hits so I specifically included just the checks you had included in your list.

 

Now you are insisting that I only include other hits after the first hit is found.  I’ve updated the program so that it does this and that is the latest response you’ll see above.  Can you not see progress here?  Can you not see that the hits I keep finding aren’t going away just because you tighten the rules?

 

Now you are also insisting that I choose just one chapter but which one.  I’ve only been presenting the full results for one chapter in recent posts but the program I’m running goes through the whole book each time so I have access to all that data whether or not I show it to you.  To me it’s telling that so many chapters in “Moby Di-ck” contain so many hits and I think it’s important for people to understand that but I can hide all that evidence from you and just use it to choose the best chapter to examine in detail if that would make you feel better.  Is deception really what you want from me here?

 

Of course I suspect that you have chosen Iron because you find many hits in it, if another chapter had significantly more hits contained within it you’d choose that one and find some justification for that choice.  I’m not going to play those sorts of games, I’ll just present the findings numerically.

 

Russell

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Hi QED

 

I have included spaces in the past but in my latest iteration of the search algorithm I’m not though it’s easy enough to add that if Andalusi wants.

 

Russell

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Hi QED

 

I have included spaces in the past but in my latest iteration of the search algorithm I’m not though it’s easy enough to add that if Andalusi wants.

 

Russell

Just for the heck of it, I thought I'd do a quick manual check (using the "find" function in Acrobat Pro). To fulful Andalusi's requirement of "relevance", I used the chapter called "The Koran" from the book "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq (just did a search on the web for PDFs of books on Islam).

I started at the beginning of the list of elements and found hits for the first six elements (H, He, Li, Be, B, C) within the first few pages. No time to do any more.

Seems like your claim that this "miracle" can be found in most books is correct! That's another one crossed off.

Edited by QED

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