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Numerical Miracles In The Quran, Real Evidence

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I think I’ve spent enough time writing algorithms to test this stuff for the moment.

Don't blame you. Your preseverance is admirable!

 

Winning the lotto twice with the same numbers that’s so improbable that it must be a miracle!!

I am tempted to agree with you here. Odds of 5.4 trillion to one are just too long to occur naturally. The only possible conclusion is that this was a divine act by God and Mike McDermott from Hampshire is obviously Allah's new Messenger!

The only other explanation is that very improbable things happen all the time and all these numerical "miracles" in the Quran are just statistical probabilities with no more meaning to them than a lottery win.

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for the sake of argument lets forget O (oxygen), we just remove it from the list.

What? To borrow an expression from you, "are you joking with me?"!

 

You have scientific proof that the Quran is divine, but when part of that "proof" is shown to be not only false, but also dishonest, you just say "let's forget that part"? So Allah cannot identify oxygen? Is this a sign that he wants Arabic speakers to suffocate? (Obviously not, but that is the kind of conclusion that is being inferred by many of these "scientific miracles".)

How far are you going to paint yourself into this corner?

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Don't blame you. Your preseverance is admirable!

I am tempted to agree with you here. Odds of 5.4 trillion to one are just too long to occur naturally. The only possible conclusion is that this was a divine act by God and Mike McDermott from Hampshire is obviously Allah's new Messenger!

The only other explanation is that very improbable things happen all the time and all these numerical "miracles" in the Quran are just statistical probabilities with no more meaning to them than a lottery win.

 

 

the problem with you non-muslim/atheists you dont think deeply 

 

for you this is all coincidence, but you dont remember that quran was pogrammed on easy scale and on advanced scale

 

for example for you this is coincidence wich is totally absurd

 

quran mentions same number of times

 

angels-devils 88 times

 

this world- next world 115 times

 

cold-heat 4 times

 

man-woman 24

 

belief-dissbelief 25

 

near-away 10

 

smart people-dumb people 16 times

 

sun-light 33 times 

 

and much much more

 

and not only that, for you coincidence is that word Day is mentioned exactly 365 as it is in one year, and word Month 12 times just like it is in one year, this just shows that you cant see obvious stuff, or you dont want to admit that quran is programmed nummerically, beacuse it is against your belief that this cant be a book of God, so even if it is something obvious you lie to yourself and other, it just proves that you are not honest person.

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the problem with you non-muslim/atheists you dont think deeply .

You have shown that the exact opposite is true.

 

or you this is all coincidence, but you dont remember that quran was pogrammed on easy scale and on advanced scale

If you insist that something unlikely happening must be a miracle, do you accept Mike McDermott (PBUH) as your latest Prophet? If not, why not? Odds of 5.4 trillion to one are far longer than the odds of certain combinations of letters occurring in a book. What happened to him had to be a sign from Allah. And he did move to a Muslim country after the second win! That CANNOT be a coincidence, can it?

 

for you coincidence is that word Day is mentioned exactly 365 as it is in one year, and word Month 12 times just like it is in one year, this just shows that you cant see obvious stuff

Are you trying to tell me that the people who wrote the Quran did not know that there were 12 months and 365 days in a year? (They did, by the way) Even if they didn't, the odds of any of those words occurring that number of times is less than 5.4 trillion to one.

Either way, miracle disproved.

 

You could save yourself a lot of trouble if you just learned a little about the nature of probability.

And learned the definition of "miracle". (It's "something that is impossible under the laws of nature", BTW).

Edited by QED

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Why is the Quran A miracle ?? 

 

1- It was delevered by a man on his 40 es old of age , Who the people knew and who was rasied among them, all his life he was illeterate , not intrested in Poetery or litriture .

 

2- as many enemies Islam has , This book has been perserved , there is not one strong argument against the Authorty of the Quran ( it is exactly as Muhammad PBUH delevered it ,, and it has been the same for the last 1400 years while MANY people tried to change it .

 

3- There is only one copy of the Quran , where every word is the same every where you go in the world , not 2 muslims disagree on it.

 

4- The fact that there is not one single contridection in there even thu it has been reveled on a period of almost 23 years.

 

5- the fact there there is not one single mistake in the historiical , scintific details .

 

6- the fact that it mentions historical fact has not been discovered before it but after it and it was true .

 

7- the fact that it mention scintific facts that are not been discovered before it .

 

8- the fact that it is systematically and numarically accruate to the LETTER , if one letter change in the Quran , A LOT of mathmatical patterens with be lost . you can find some of them in this subject by alandulusi.

 

the list goes on , that is on top of my mind .

when you guys find a book like this one , come and argue , otherwise stop saying stupid claims and blind arguments .

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Why is the Quran A miracle ?? 

The issue I have is not whether the Quran is divine or not. Not even whether it is unique (there are many "unique" books) or a valuable spiritual tool, which it obviously is.

The issue here are the claims being made which are simply false and do not stand up to scrutiny.

 

All the "scientific miracles" that I have looked at turn out this way. If you have been following this thread you will have seen the actual evidence.

Aristotle described worker bees as female in his book "A History of Animals" 1000 years before the Quran

The "embryology" described in the Quran was recorded by Aristotle and Galen, as well as being common knowledge amongst those working in midwifery & animal husbandry.

Anyone who had visited Ancient Egypt would have known that baked mud bricks were the most common building material.

Ancient civilisations had been using iron from meteorites for thousands of years, before smelting was developed in the Iron Age (a dagger of meteoric iron was found in Tutenkhamen's tomb).

Every scientific study into the power of prayer has shown that it does not have any effect.

All the numerical and lexicographical miracles are based on a misunderstanding of probability.

Etc.

(Remember that the Quran was actually written down by many literate people.)

 

I do not subscribe to any of the major religions, but I believe in the power of faith. Faith cannot be proved nor disproved by science, but claims about the world about us can be. Faith is something that must come from within, from an inner spirituality.

If you say you believe your faith is true bcause of "X", and "X" is later found to be absolutely untrue, where does that leave your faith?

If you say you know your faith to be true because your heart and soul tell you it is so, no new scientific discoveries can change this.

It is odd that people who reject evolution, for example, because they claim science can be wrong and theories change and are disproved are often the same people who say that science can prove the Quran to be divine.

 

I do not understand the need to prove your faith with questionable science. I think this passage sums it up perfectly

"One of these theologians was named Imam Fakhrudeen ar-Razi. One day he was walking the streets of Baghdad with a large gathering of students. An old woman saw this and asked one of the students who this was. He told her, "He is the man who has 70 proofs for the existence of God." At this the woman replied, "If you didn't have 70 doubts you wouldn't need 70 proofs." When news reached Ar-Razi, he was quite impressed and used this as a humbling lesson to his students: "Have the faith of old women."

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You have shown that the exact opposite is true.

If you insist that something unlikely happening must be a miracle, do you accept Mike McDermott (PBUH) as your latest Prophet? If not, why not? Odds of 5.4 trillion to one are far longer than the odds of certain combinations of letters occurring in a book. What happened to him had to be a sign from Allah. And he did move to a Muslim country after the second win! That CANNOT be a coincidence, can it?

Are you trying to tell me that the people who wrote the Quran did not know that there were 12 months and 365 days in a year? (They did, by the way) Even if they didn't, the odds of any of those words occurring that number of times is less than 5.4 trillion to one.

Either way, miracle disproved.

 

You could save yourself a lot of trouble if you just learned a little about the nature of probability.

And learned the definition of "miracle". (It's "something that is impossible under the laws of nature", BTW).

 

 

 

Are you trying to tell me that the people who wrote the Quran did not know that there were 12 months and 365 days in a year? (They did, by the way) Even if they didn't, the odds of any of those words occurring that number of times is less than 5.4 trillion to one.

Either way, miracle disproved.

 

 

to do today such thing is not a miracle, but back then it was, beacuse

 

muhamed recites the verses, we believe those verse came from God via angel gabriel,but you or other think it just came from himself not from God or anybody else.so if it comes from Muhammed, is it possible that illitarate person create a book by reciting to his scribers and he organize it in his own mind and his scribers write only what he tells them???

 

so from that perspective that illitarate person talks , his scribers write what he say and then when you analyze the text you see organaized text with numbers, that they are in cooparation. but today reapeating words is not miracle if we can do that with microsoft word where you can track all words and so on.

 

but now question is, do you believe that quran is organised by inteligent being, does not matter from who you believe it is, god, muhammed or alien, whatever, but do you believe that it is organized book

 

angels-devils 88 times

this world-next world 115 times

man-woman 25 times

 

and so on. if you neglect that this is organize, then you are clearly liying to me , to yourself and to everybody else, beacuse this is clear evidence of organized book.

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The issue I have is not whether the Quran is divine or not. Not even whether it is unique (there are many "unique" books) or a valuable spiritual tool, which it obviously is.

The issue here are the claims being made which are simply false and do not stand up to scrutiny.

 

All the "scientific miracles" that I have looked at turn out this way. If you have been following this thread you will have seen the actual evidence.

Aristotle described worker bees as female in his book "A History of Animals" 1000 years before the Quran

The "embryology" described in the Quran was recorded by Aristotle and Galen, as well as being common knowledge amongst those working in midwifery & animal husbandry.

Anyone who had visited Ancient Egypt would have known that baked mud bricks were the most common building material.

Ancient civilisations had been using iron from meteorites for thousands of years, before smelting was developed in the Iron Age (a dagger of meteoric iron was found in Tutenkhamen's tomb).

Every scientific study into the power of prayer has shown that it does not have any effect.

All the numerical and lexicographical miracles are based on a misunderstanding of probability.

Etc.

(Remember that the Quran was actually written down by many literate people.)

 

I do not subscribe to any of the major religions, but I believe in the power of faith. Faith cannot be proved nor disproved by science, but claims about the world about us can be. Faith is something that must come from within, from an inner spirituality.

If you say you believe your faith is true bcause of "X", and "X" is later found to be absolutely untrue, where does that leave your faith?

If you say you know your faith to be true because your heart and soul tell you it is so, no new scientific discoveries can change this.

It is odd that people who reject evolution, for example, because they claim science can be wrong and theories change and are disproved are often the same people who say that science can prove the Quran to be divine.

 

I do not understand the need to prove your faith with questionable science. I think this passage sums it up perfectly

"One of these theologians was named Imam Fakhrudeen ar-Razi. One day he was walking the streets of Baghdad with a large gathering of students. An old woman saw this and asked one of the students who this was. He told her, "He is the man who has 70 proofs for the existence of God." At this the woman replied, "If you didn't have 70 doubts you wouldn't need 70 proofs." When news reached Ar-Razi, he was quite impressed and used this as a humbling lesson to his students: "Have the faith of old women."

 

 

The issue here are the claims being made which are simply false and do not stand up to scrutiny.

 

what is false man, if someone knew some scinetific stuff before quran., so that is why quran is wrong, what a logic.

 

 

 

The "embryology" described in the Quran was recorded by Aristotle and Galen,

 

not true

 

evidence where they detaily analyzed embriology in quran and greek emmbriology, aristotle and galen

http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/medical-miracles/does-the-quran-plagiarise-ancient-greek-embryology/

 

 

 

(Remember that the Quran was actually written down by many literate people.)

 

absolutely not true, in my 20 years of reaserching Islam i have not seen 1 proof that someone else wrote quran than what is described

 

 

GOd send verse via angel Gabriel to Muhammed, muhammed recites it and his scribers write it down on different materials like, animalskin, bones, stones, or dried leafs and so on.

 

show me only 1 evidence that it was not liike this.

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to do today such thing is not a miracle, but back then it was, beacuse

 

muhamed recites the verses, we believe those verse came from God via angel gabriel,but you or other think it just came from himself not from God or anybody else.so if it comes from Muhammed, is it possible that illitarate person create a book by reciting to his scribers and he organize it in his own mind and his scribers write only what he tells them???

 

so from that perspective that illitarate person talks , his scribers write what he say and then when you analyze the text you see organaized text with numbers, that they are in cooparation. but today reapeating words is not miracle if we can do that with microsoft word where you can track all words and so on.

 

but now question is, do you believe that quran is organised by inteligent being, does not matter from who you believe it is, god, muhammed or alien, whatever, but do you believe that it is organized book

 

angels-devils 88 times

this world-next world 115 times

man-woman 25 times

 

and so on. if you neglect that this is organize, then you are clearly liying to me , to yourself and to everybody else, beacuse this is clear evidence of organized book.

You are starting to get into a whole new argument here. The provenance of the Quran is not nearly as clear as I thought it was a few months ago when I started looking at Islam. However, that is not my argument. It is simply that the "miracles" that you claim cannot be miracles because it has been proved that either the information is wrong, was already known at the time, or the numericals are statistically possible. A miracle is something that is  impossible under the laws of nature. All the things in the Quran which you claim to be miraculous are possible, even if you think they are unlikely. Therefore thay cannot be miraculous. It is not a question open to debate, it is a statement of FACT!

None of this proves that it is not a divine book, and that is not my argument. It might well have been dictated by God to Muhammed but your miraculous claims do not prove it and as they can be disproved, they cast doubt on your whole case by association.

 

BTW, I read that link on embryology and all it shows is that there is no information in the Quran that does not resemble that in earlier texts, including the errors!

 

Regarding the transcription of the Quran, I am not disputing that it was originally dictated, memorised, part written then collated and compiled over the course of several decades. However, considering that the oldest complete copy of the quran is from the 9th century, it seems  a stretch to claim that it contains no amendments, additions or omissions. I am aware that this is what Muslims believe but without all those original transcriptions, there is no way of knowing and knowing what we do about the way ancient texts change with time, it is naive to assume that it has not.

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angels-devils 88 times

this world-next world 115 times

man-woman 25 times.

This is an interesting one.

Firstly, if finding some words with opposite meaning occuring  the same number of times is proof of divinity, is the occurance of antonyms at different frequency proof of mortal origin?

If not, why not?

 

Second, and more telling, using the facility in the Search Truth Islamic website, the word count does not match. Comparing the 5 different English translations on their database:

Angels - 81, 83, 85, 89, 135 times

Devils - 0, 1, 11, 13, 19

Using my own PDF version of Pickthall, Angels - 87 and Devils - 15

Using three differnt translators for the Arabic, the differences are still there.

The other words claimed show similar discrepancies.

How do you explain this?

 

So, even though finding some antonyms occuring with the same frequency would merely be a statistical possibility, it appears that they do not actually occur the same number of times.

 

You keep posting them and I'll keep knocking them down!

 

As I keep saying, If you don't base your faith on "facts", it can't be shaken when they furn out to be fails.

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You are starting to get into a whole new argument here. The provenance of the Quran is not nearly as clear as I thought it was a few months ago when I started looking at Islam. However, that is not my argument. It is simply that the "miracles" that you claim cannot be miracles because it has been proved that either the information is wrong, was already known at the time, or the numericals are statistically possible. A miracle is something that is  impossible under the laws of nature. All the things in the Quran which you claim to be miraculous are possible, even if you think they are unlikely. Therefore thay cannot be miraculous. It is not a question open to debate, it is a statement of FACT!

None of this proves that it is not a divine book, and that is not my argument. It might well have been dictated by God to Muhammed but your miraculous claims do not prove it and as they can be disproved, they cast doubt on your whole case by association.

 

BTW, I read that link on embryology and all it shows is that there is no information in the Quran that does not resemble that in earlier texts, including the errors!

 

Regarding the transcription of the Quran, I am not disputing that it was originally dictated, memorised, part written then collated and compiled over the course of several decades. However, considering that the oldest complete copy of the quran is from the 9th century, it seems  a stretch to claim that it contains no amendments, additions or omissions. I am aware that this is what Muslims believe but without all those original transcriptions, there is no way of knowing and knowing what we do about the way ancient texts change with time, it is naive to assume that it has not.

 

 

 

A miracle is something that is  impossible under the laws of nature

 

so far nobody has ever created a book like quran, nor is it possible to organize chapter numbers and verse numbers like in quran , not to talk about quranic text wich is makes it even more complicated.

 

i know that it is not possible to create a book like quran under the laws of nature beacuse it contains, nummerical, scientific, linguistic, futuristic, and healing properties and this all come from a man(muhammed) according to non-muslims(not from God), from a man wich is illitarate.

 

 

 

All the things in the Quran which you claim to be miraculous are possible,

 

i will give you simple thing wich show why it is not possible, let say you are illitarate person, cant read or write, and you have to recite to your scribers

 

can you organize smallest chapter in quran with 3 verses like this

 

bdmskj.jpg

 

1.it must cotain 10 words

2. every verse most be made out of 10 different letters

3. only 10 letters must occure once troughout the chapter

4. every second word must end with K and last letter must end with R

 

can you do this only in your mind without using paper, pen, and computer??? 

 

 

 

BTW, I read that link on embryology and all it shows is that there is no information in the Quran that does not resemble that in earlier texts, including the errors!

 

let me give you and example, in quran chronological order what God gives to babies is hearing, sight and mind, allways in this order, what is special with that?

 

science tell us that hearing develops first, then sight , then mind.

 

who knew this info before quran, show me with evidence?

 

 

 

However, considering that the oldest complete copy of the quran is from the 9th century,

 

not true, we have uthmanic script wich is earlier, uthman was companian of prophet, and that script is from 7th century. that script can bee seen in museum.

 

 

 there is no way of knowing and knowing what we do about the way ancient texts change with time, it is naive to assume that it has not.

 

nummerical miracle proves scintifically/empirically that quran was unchanged book from God, even God promise in the quran that he will guard Quran from corruption.

 

 

 

Firstly, if finding some words with opposite meaning occuring  the same number of times is proof of divinity, is the occurance of antonyms at different frequency proof of mortal origin?

If not, why not?

 

if you say prove today, then it is not proof of divinity, but if you say back then, during muhammeds time, if quran came only via muhammed without any person changing anything, then it is proof of divinity since muhammed was illitarate person, so how could he organize book nummerically like this? impossible for illitarate person to make a book like this.

 

 

 

 

Second, and more telling, using the facility in the Search Truth Islamic website, the word count does not match. Comparing the 5 different English translations on their database:

Angels - 81, 83, 85, 89, 135 times

Devils - 0, 1, 11, 13, 19

Using my own PDF version of Pickthall, Angels - 87 and Devils - 15

Using three differnt translators for the Arabic, the differences are still there.

The other words claimed show similar discrepancies.

How do you explain this?

 

you make wrong counting, beacuse if you count in translation of the quran you will never achieve result, beacuse every translation is different

 

word Devil/Satan is Shaytan in arabic, so only those words are mentioned 88 times, nothng else

 

another word Tagoot means (unjust leader, idols, devils) something wich is wrong to follow in other words, if someone translate this word Tagoot into Devils you cant, take it in counting since Shaytan and Tagoot are not same word, beacuse tagoot has different meanings not only satans. that is why yo ucant count in translation, you can only count in orginal text of the quran.

 

 

 

You keep posting them and I'll keep knocking them down!

 

how can you knock them down when you shoot in wrong direction???, you need to shoot towards them, not in the sky.

 

first, you need to count with quran search programs wich search in orginal text in arabic , not in translation. then you can knock them down.

 

but if you try to knock nummerical miracle by counting in translation of the quran, you will only knock down yourself, nobody else.

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you make wrong counting, beacuse if you count in translation of the quran you will never achieve result, beacuse every translation is different

 

word Devil/Satan is Shaytan in arabic, so only those words are mentioned 88 times, nothng else

 

another word Tagoot means (unjust leader, idols, devils) something wich is wrong to follow in other words, if someone translate this word Tagoot into Devils you cant, take it in counting since Shaytan and Tagoot are not same word, beacuse tagoot has different meanings not only satans. that is why yo ucant count in translation, you can only count in orginal text of the quran.

You really need to explain why every translator only found 20 or fewer words meaning "devils" when you say that there are 88. (The count for "angels" is around 80 so there is obviously a discrepancy).

Don't C&P anything. Don't raise new issues. Just address this one point, please.

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You really need to explain why every translator only found 20 or fewer words meaning "devils" when you say that there are 88. (The count for "angels" is around 80 so there is obviously a discrepancy).

Don't C&P anything. Don't raise new issues. Just address this one point, please.

Noun

  1. (2:30:4) lil'malāikati to the angels وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً
  2. (2:31:8) l-malāikati the angels وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ
  3. (2:34:3) lil'malāikati to the angels وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ
  4. (2:98:5) wamalāikatihi and His Angels مَنْ كَانَ عَدُوًّا لِلَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَجِبْرِيلَ وَمِيكَالَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَدُوٌّ لِلْكَافِرِينَ
  5. (2:102:20) l-malakayni the two angels يُعَلِّمُونَ النَّاسَ السِّحْرَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَى الْمَلَكَيْنِ
  6. (2:161:11) wal-malāikati and the Angels أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ لَعْنَةُ اللَّهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ
  7. (2:177:16) wal-malāikati and the Angels وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ
  8. (2:210:11) wal-malāikatu and the Angels هَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ يَأْتِيَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِنَ الْغَمَامِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ
  9. (2:248:22) l-malāikatu the Angels وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسَىٰ وَآلُ هَارُونَ تَحْمِلُهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ
  10. (2:285:12) wamalāikatihi and His Angels كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ
  11. (3:18:8) wal-malāikatu and (so do) the Angels شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ
  12. (3:39:2) l-malāikatu the Angels فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ
  13. (3:42:3) l-malāikatu the Angels وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ
  14. (3:45:3) l-malāikatu the Angels إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِنْهُ
  15. (3:80:5) l-malāikata the Angels وَلَا يَأْمُرَكُمْ أَنْ تَتَّخِذُوا الْمَلَائِكَةَ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ أَرْبَابًا
  16. (3:87:7) wal-malāikati and the Angels أُولَٰئِكَ جَزَاؤُهُمْ أَنَّ عَلَيْهِمْ لَعْنَةَ اللَّهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ
  17. (3:124:12) l-malāikati [the] Angels أَلَنْ يَكْفِيَكُمْ أَنْ يُمِدَّكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ بِثَلَاثَةِ آلَافٍ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مُنْزَلِينَ
  18. (3:125:14) l-malāikati [the] Angels يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ بِخَمْسَةِ آلَافٍ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ
  19. (4:97:4) l-malāikatu the Angels إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ قَالُوا فِيمَ كُنْتُمْ
  20. (4:136:20) wamalāikatihi and His Angels وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا
  21. (4:166:9) wal-malāikatu and the Angels لَٰكِنِ اللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ إِلَيْكَ أَنْزَلَهُ بِعِلْمِهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ يَشْهَدُونَ
  22. (4:172:9) l-malāikatu the Angels لَنْ يَسْتَنْكِفَ الْمَسِيحُ أَنْ يَكُونَ عَبْدًا لِلَّهِ وَلَا الْمَلَائِكَةُ الْمُقَرَّبُونَ
  23. (6:8:5) malakun an Angel وَقَالُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ مَلَكٌ
  24. (6:8:8) malakan an Angel وَلَوْ أَنْزَلْنَا مَلَكًا لَقُضِيَ الْأَمْرُ ثُمَّ لَا يُنْظَرُونَ
  25. (6:9:3) malakan an Angel وَلَوْ جَعَلْنَاهُ مَلَكًا لَجَعَلْنَاهُ رَجُلًا وَلَلَبَسْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ مَا يَلْبِسُونَ
  26. (6:50:15) malakun an Angel وَلَا أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ وَلَا أَقُولُ لَكُمْ إِنِّي مَلَكٌ
  27. (6:93:30) wal-malāikatu while the Angels وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذِ الظَّالِمُونَ فِي غَمَرَاتِ الْمَوْتِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَاسِطُو أَيْدِيهِمْ
  28. (6:111:5) l-malāikata the Angels وَلَوْ أَنَّنَا نَزَّلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ وَكَلَّمَهُمُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَحَشَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ قُبُلًا مَا كَانُوا لِيُؤْمِنُوا
  29. (6:158:6) l-malāikatu the Angels هَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ أَوْ يَأْتِيَ رَبُّكَ
  30. (7:11:7) lil'malāikati to the Angels وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ صَوَّرْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ
  31. (7:20:21) malakayni Angels وَقَالَ مَا نَهَاكُمَا رَبُّكُمَا عَنْ هَٰذِهِ الشَّجَرَةِ إِلَّا أَنْ تَكُونَا مَلَكَيْنِ
  32. (8:9:10) l-malāikati the Angels فَاسْتَجَابَ لَكُمْ أَنِّي مُمِدُّكُمْ بِأَلْفٍ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مُرْدِفِينَ
  33. (8:12:5) l-malāikati the Angels إِذْ يُوحِي رَبُّكَ إِلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ أَنِّي مَعَكُمْ
  34. (8:50:7) l-malāikatu the Angels وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ
  35. (11:12:19) malakun an Angel لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ كَنْزٌ أَوْ جَاءَ مَعَهُ مَلَكٌ
  36. (11:31:13) malakun an Angel وَلَا أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ وَلَا أَقُولُ إِنِّي مَلَكٌ
  37. (12:31:31) malakun an angel وَقُلْنَ حَاشَ لِلَّهِ مَا هَٰذَا بَشَرًا إِنْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا مَلَكٌ كَرِيمٌ
  38. (13:13:4) wal-malāikatu and the Angels وَيُسَبِّحُ الرَّعْدُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ مِنْ خِيفَتِهِ
  39. (13:23:10) wal-malāikatu And the Angels وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ يَدْخُلُونَ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ بَابٍ
  40. (15:7:4) bil-malāikati the Angels لَوْ مَا تَأْتِينَا بِالْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنْ كُنْتَ مِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ
  41. (15:8:3) l-malāikata the Angels مَا نُنَزِّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَمَا كَانُوا إِذًا مُنْظَرِينَ
  42. (15:28:4) lil'malāikati to the Angels وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي خَالِقٌ بَشَرًا مِنْ صَلْصَالٍ
  43. (15:30:2) l-malāikatu the Angels فَسَجَدَ الْمَلَائِكَةُ كُلُّهُمْ أَجْمَعُونَ
  44. (16:2:2) l-malāikata the Angels يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ بِالرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَىٰ مَنْ يَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ
  45. (16:28:3) l-malāikatu the Angels الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ
  46. (16:32:3) l-malāikatu the Angels الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ طَيِّبِينَ يَقُولُونَ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمُ
  47. (16:33:6) l-malāikatu the Angels هَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ أَوْ يَأْتِيَ أَمْرُ رَبِّكَ
  48. (16:49:11) wal-malāikatu and the Angels وَلِلَّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِنْ دَابَّةٍ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ
  49. (17:40:6) l-malāikati the Angels أَفَأَصْفَاكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ بِالْبَنِينَ وَاتَّخَذَ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنَاثًا
  50. (17:61:3) lil'malāikati to the Angels وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ
  51. (17:92:11) wal-malāikati and the Angels أَوْ تُسْقِطَ السَّمَاءَ كَمَا زَعَمْتَ عَلَيْنَا كِسَفًا أَوْ تَأْتِيَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ قَبِيلًا
  52. (17:95:6) malāikatun Angels قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَلَائِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَلَكًا رَسُولًا
  53. (17:95:13) malakan an Angel قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَلَائِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَلَكًا رَسُولًا
  54. (18:50:3) lil'malāikati to the Angels وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ
  55. (20:116:3) lil'malāikati to the Angels وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ
  56. (21:103:6) l-malāikatu the Angels وَتَتَلَقَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ هَٰذَا يَوْمُكُمُ الَّذِي كُنْتُمْ تُوعَدُونَ
  57. (22:75:4) l-malāikati the Angels اللَّهُ يَصْطَفِي مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا وَمِنَ النَّاسِ
  58. (23:24:20) malāikatan Angels وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنْزَلَ مَلَائِكَةً مَا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِي آبَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ
  59. (25:7:13) malakun an Angel لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مَلَكٌ فَيَكُونَ مَعَهُ نَذِيرًا
  60. (25:21:9) l-malāikatu the Angels وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْنَا الْمَلَائِكَةُ أَوْ نَرَىٰ رَبَّنَا
  61. (25:22:3) l-malāikata the Angels يَوْمَ يَرَوْنَ الْمَلَائِكَةَ لَا بُشْرَىٰ يَوْمَئِذٍ لِلْمُجْرِمِينَ
  62. (25:25:6) l-malāikatu the Angels وَيَوْمَ تَشَقَّقُ السَّمَاءُ بِالْغَمَامِ وَنُزِّلَ الْمَلَائِكَةُ تَنْزِيلًا
  63. (32:11:3) malaku (the) Angel قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ مَلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ
  64. (33:43:5) wamalāikatuhu and His Angels هُوَ الَّذِي يُصَلِّي عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَلَائِكَتُهُ لِيُخْرِجَكُمْ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ
  65. (33:56:3) wamalāikatahu and His Angels إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ
  66. (34:40:6) lil'malāikati to the Angels ثُمَّ يَقُولُ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ أَهَٰؤُلَاءِ إِيَّاكُمْ كَانُوا يَعْبُدُونَ
  67. (35:1:7) l-malāikati the Angels الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ فَاطِرِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ جَاعِلِ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا
  68. (37:150:3) l-malāikata the Angels أَمْ خَلَقْنَا الْمَلَائِكَةَ إِنَاثًا وَهُمْ شَاهِدُونَ
  69. (38:71:4) lil'malāikati to the Angels إِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي خَالِقٌ بَشَرًا مِنْ طِينٍ
  70. (38:73:2) l-malāikatu the Angels فَسَجَدَ الْمَلَائِكَةُ كُلُّهُمْ أَجْمَعُونَ
  71. (39:75:2) l-malāikata the Angels وَتَرَى الْمَلَائِكَةَ حَافِّينَ مِنْ حَوْلِ الْعَرْشِ يُسَبِّحُونَ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ
  72. (41:14:18) malāikatan Angels قَالُوا لَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّنَا لَأَنْزَلَ مَلَائِكَةً فَإِنَّا بِمَا أُرْسِلْتُمْ بِهِ كَافِرُونَ
  73. (41:30:10) l-malāikatu the Angels إِنَّ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ ثُمَّ اسْتَقَامُوا تَتَنَزَّلُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ
  74. (42:5:6) wal-malāikatu and the Angels وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ يُسَبِّحُونَ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَيَسْتَغْفِرُونَ لِمَنْ فِي الْأَرْضِ
  75. (43:19:2) l-malāikata the Angels وَجَعَلُوا الْمَلَائِكَةَ الَّذِينَ هُمْ عِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ إِنَاثًا
  76. (43:53:10) l-malāikatu the Angels فَلَوْلَا أُلْقِيَ عَلَيْهِ أَسْوِرَةٌ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ أَوْ جَاءَ مَعَهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ مُقْتَرِنِينَ
  77. (43:60:5) malāikatan Angels وَلَوْ نَشَاءُ لَجَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ مَلَائِكَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ يَخْلُفُونَ
  78. (47:27:4) l-malāikatu the Angels فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ
  79. (53:26:3) malakin (the) Angels وَكَمْ مِنْ مَلَكٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ لَا تُغْنِي شَفَاعَتُهُمْ شَيْئًا
  80. (53:27:7) l-malāikata the Angels إِنَّ الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْآخِرَةِ لَيُسَمُّونَ الْمَلَائِكَةَ تَسْمِيَةَ الْأُنْثَىٰ
  81. (66:4:18) wal-malāikatu and the Angels وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ
  82. (66:6:12) malāikatun (are) Angels عَلَيْهَا مَلَائِكَةٌ غِلَاظٌ شِدَادٌ لَا يَعْصُونَ اللَّهَ مَا أَمَرَهُمْ
  83. (69:17:1) wal-malaku And the Angels وَالْمَلَكُ عَلَىٰ أَرْجَائِهَا وَيَحْمِلُ عَرْشَ رَبِّكَ فَوْقَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ ثَمَانِيَةٌ
  84. (70:4:2) l-malāikatu the Angels تَعْرُجُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِي يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ
  85. (74:31:6) malāikatan Angels وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً
  86. (78:38:4) wal-malāikatu and the Angels يَوْمَ يَقُومُ الرُّوحُ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ صَفًّا
  87. (89:22:3) wal-malaku and the Angels وَجَاءَ رَبُّكَ وَالْمَلَكُ صَفًّا صَفًّا
  88. (97:4:2) l-malāikatu the Angels تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ
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As-salamu alaykum

 

I'm sorry about that one. I accidently sent it when it wasn't ready.

 

Apparently I can't delete nor edit messages so could a moderator delete it?

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Noun

  1. (2:30:4) lil'malāikati to the angels وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً
Etc...

 

That's correct. About 80 occurances of "angels".

What I was asking was why did the translators of at least 5 of the popular, accepted versions (all experts in classical Arabic) only find 20 or fewer words that translate as "devils" when Andalusi claims that there are 88?

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To make sure the translation search was not missing any possibilities, I searched for any word which could have it's original as "devils". I included "devil", "satan", "evil spirit" as well as plurals. This produced a range of results from 60 to 174, with the closest being 97.

I do not claim to be an expert on translating Classical Arabic, but the men who produced these translations were. I suppose the problem stems from Arabic having a subjective vocabulary where words can have many different interpretations. I think we must assume that any word count is thus subjective in nature. They certainly cannot be used as proof of the miraculous.

 

It has also not been explained why other pairs of words; night/day, black/white, light/dark, paradise/hell, young/old, life/death, good/evil, etc, are not claimed to be present in equal numbers. If the claim is that only a few, random pairs have the same number, this would be nothing more than coincidence. (Although as we have seen, they don't appear to occur with equal frequency).

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Hello QED
 
I used this site to count the words.

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp
 

"The triliteral root shīn ṭā nūn (ش ط ن) occurs 88 times in the Quran as the nominal shayṭān (شَيْطَٰن)."

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$Tn
 

Angels:

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mlk

 

I hope this helped :yes:

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copied from quran search program

 

Angels/Malak

2i0xmhy.jpg

 

Devils/Satans/ Shaytan

2sbmil0.jpg

 

are you happy with the evidence?

 

QED, you cant count in translations, i dont know how you get 80 occurences when it is clearly 88, and we have proved it to you, if you still doubt, then show us where we count wrong if you are so sure about that.

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Hi Andalusi

 

You leave me with no choice, I’m hardly about to take your word for it that all of these ‘hits’ are really there.  A scientific experiment that can’t be reproduced is written off as rubbish, I think that’s the only valid position to take here.  I’m asking for something that might be hard to find but it’s necessary to this test.  We’ve seen that your results are suspicious when we find you matching abbreviations with vowels to a language that does not have vowels.  Even your vowel place marker “alif” doesn’t really help because it can, according to everything I’ve read, stand in for any vowel except O though you claim a match for O as well when it suits you.  Sorry but your findings are sounding very shaky here.  The simple fix for that is to find exactly what I asked for then I’ll run the same algorithm that found all those matches in “Moby Di-ck” over it and your results should all appear, at the moment, with the best translation I’ve been able to find most simply don’t.

 

I’d suggest that we can’t simply forget ‘O’ because anything with a vowel is suspicious as “alif” doesn’t equal any specific vowel rather it can stand for any of them.  Should I expand my search to accept any vowel next to the consonant characters in those abbreviations and start claiming them as hits?  That’s basically what you are doing here and that is invalid.

 

Russell

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Hi Andalusi

 

You leave me with no choice, I’m hardly about to take your word for it that all of these ‘hits’ are really there.  A scientific experiment that can’t be reproduced is written off as rubbish, I think that’s the only valid position to take here.  I’m asking for something that might be hard to find but it’s necessary to this test.  We’ve seen that your results are suspicious when we find you matching abbreviations with vowels to a language that does not have vowels.  Even your vowel place marker “alif” doesn’t really help because it can, according to everything I’ve read, stand in for any vowel except O though you claim a match for O as well when it suits you.  Sorry but your findings are sounding very shaky here.  The simple fix for that is to find exactly what I asked for then I’ll run the same algorithm that found all those matches in “Moby Di-ck” over it and your results should all appear, at the moment, with the best translation I’ve been able to find most simply don’t.

 

I’d suggest that we can’t simply forget ‘O’ because anything with a vowel is suspicious as “alif” doesn’t equal any specific vowel rather it can stand for any of them.  Should I expand my search to accept any vowel next to the consonant characters in those abbreviations and start claiming them as hits?  That’s basically what you are doing here and that is invalid.

 

Russell

 

i explained to you how you shall count those stuff. i even helped you by transfer from arabic letter to latinized letters for easier counting, but only in first verse only so you could see how it was done.

 

i ask you how can so many chemical elements to match perfecty even though some of them are mentioned only once in the whole chapter.

 

i know that there is no coincidence in Quran, beacuse God dont put something in quran by coincidence, beacuse He is allknowing, he knew everything at them time of revelation of quran, he knew  how people shall call different chemical elements, how heavy they are, what periodic number they have and everything else. If we know that God know everything then there can be no coincidence in quran since it comes from allknowing being. Coincidence is product of chance, something wich happen without inteligent involment. God knew that you and me shall talk about these chemical elements when she sent those verses during 6th century.  

 

 

 The simple fix for that is to find exactly what I asked for then I’ll run the same algorithm that found all those matches in “Moby Di-ck”

 

 

forget moby beacuse i clearly showed to you that even if some chemical element followed same pattern as quran, we tested same method on other chemical elements and they fail to produce same result, wich is evidence that those 11 hits are just coincidence.

 

i would be really impressed, if moby like quran, had only one occurence in long text for example Ga(galium) Atomic weight 69 and that there is 69 letters or words to the begining to the end of the verse from letter Ga.

 

even you said there is no chemical elements , so forget moby now, you can try to analyze other nummerical miracles in quran, i could help you to analyze them then you can prove or disprove them.

there is candy for everybody in Quran, even for you who cant arabic, God organize chapter and verse numbers that it only must come from God and not from anybody else, you could analyze that beacuse you dont need to know a single word of arabic to analyze that. 

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Hi Mr3oz

 

One of the claims being made by Andalusi, and apparently it is a claim you support, is that the quran contains miraculous information encoded in its words.  There are many more claims and you’ve listed some of them here but that’s the one we’ve been focused on.  Before a rational person should accept those sorts of claims they should examine, in detail, at least a few of those claims to see if they hold water.  That’s what I’ve been doing with Andalusi and so far, of the claims I’ve examined in detail, they simply don’t stand up to scrutiny.  Andalusi claims around 28 hits for chemical abbreviations in the quran but quite a few of those abbreviations contain vowels which Arabic does not have, of the remainder a significant number were matched by their spacing to the end of the chapter which a book such as my comparison “Moby Di-ck” can’t match because it has long chapters.  When those are taken out we find that the quran roughly matches “Moby Di-ck’s” hit rate so it becomes an also ran here.  Of course when I found a letter for letter English translation of the quran we find that only a couple of those hits Andalusi claimed actually exist.  Now we are looking at finding another source to see if we can confirm more of his claimed hits but even if they actually exist that only gets the quran back to being an also ran rather than second to “Moby Di-ck” and remember that you are claiming that this is divine from god so why should it be even in the same league as “Moby Di-ck” a book I chose at random.  If it was a miracle shouldn’t it stand out from the crowed significantly?  Is your idea of proof from the quran really about doing what pretty much any other book can do?  I’d have expected more.

 

We’ve also seen scientific errors pulled out of the quran (i.e. Proton / Neutron mass ratios) and presented as facts here before so you have to start to suspect that maybe more of that list is also flawed.  That’s not a good basis for building a case for a divinely inspired and perfect book which is basically the claim you guy’s are making here.

 

When we look at the proof of 19 and 7 encoded in there we again see some very dishonest and selective tactics used to build a case, there are hundreds of tests you might have put the book to but you’ve chosen just the few that happen to work while ignoring many more logical tests that didn’t and even then you’ve only applied these tests to one specific chapter.  I presented a list of findings around one of the chapters in “Moby Di-ck” which had huge improbability attached to it but I don’t see you switching to worship captain Ahab based on that evidence.

 

The odds and evens list Andalusi presented recently had similar flaws.  Who in their right mind would add the chapter numbers into the list of verse counts to get totals.  What rational reason is there for that other than it produced a list that looked interesting.  And that appears to be what is being done here.  Tinker with numbers derived from the quran in every way you can think of, literally thousands of tests, but only report on the one’s that look significant and ignore all those tests that the quran fails.  To be intellectually honest you must do and report on all the tests or you are only going to impress the mathematically ignorant among your audience.

 

So in the end we are left with a long list of claims that might be impressive if they were all true but given we already know that at least some of them are not true and many of the remainder are simply unprovable such as the chain of transmission right back to the original source.  Is that really a good basis for a claim of ‘divine inspiration’?

 

Russell

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Hello QED

 

I used this site to count the words.

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp

 

"The triliteral root shīn ṭā nūn (ش ط ن) occurs 88 times in the Quran as the nominal shayṭān (شَيْطَٰن)."

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$Tn

 

Angels:

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mlk

 

I hope this helped :yes:

Not really. That site lists the triliteral for "devils" as occuring 88 times and the triliteral for "angels" as 206 times and as Classical Arabic can have many different meanings from the same root structure, I am none the wiser.

 

However, even if some words like devils)/angels and man/woman do really occur the same number of times, it is mere coincidence. As I have been trying to explain (without success) to Andalusi, the possibility of these combinations of words and letters occurring is a statistical probability. In other words, it can happen even if it is unlikely. Extremely unlikely things happen all the time but people do not call them miracles. (To give you an idea, a man recently won the UK lottery twice, using the same numbers. The odds agaist this happening are 4.5 trillion to 1! I'm sure that you do not think it was a miracle though). The chances of those words occurring in those numbers is probably very high, possibly a million to one, maybe 10 million-1, even 100 million-1. The point is, it is possible under the laws of nature. A miracle is something that is impossible under the laws of nature.

 

The other point to bear in mind here is the negative correlation. If the words "angels" & "devils" appearing the same number of times is evidence of divine source, the other antonymous pairs, like "heaven" & "hell" occuring a different number must be proof of mortal source, naturally? If there are more unmatched pairs than matched pairs, that is surely conclusive proof.

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i know that there is no coincidence in Quran, beacuse God dont put something in quran by coincidence. 

And here is the crux of the matter.

Essentially, here you are admitting that these occurances would be a coincidence, except that there are none in the Quran because there are none in the Quran.

This is classic circular logic and would earn you a "fail" in first-year philosophy class.

 

You are starting your experiment with the conclusion. You are assuming divine source and then looking for things which confirm your a priori assumption.

You will not find a single mathemetician who supports your numerology, who doesnt already assume that the Quran contains numerological miracles.

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Hi Andalusi

 

The word we’ve been looking for is Transliteration which literally means swapping each letter, one by one for it’s equivalent in another language.  Here is the first transliteration I have found for “The Iron” from the quran.  Please read through it and see if it’s acceptable to you.  It came from this site http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Quran/Quran_transliteration.php?id=57

 

If you are happy with it I’ll run the script over it and we can start to see how it stacks up against the claims you’ve been making for it.

 

Russell

 

Sabbaĥa Lillāhi Mā Fī As-Samāwāti Wa Al-'Arđi Wa Huwa Al-`Azīzu Al-Ĥakīmu

Lahu Mulku As-Samāwāti Wa Al-'Arđi Yuĥyī Wa Yumītu Wa Huwa `Alá Kulli Shay'in Qadīrun

Huwa Al-'Awwalu Wa Al-'Ākhiru Wa Až-Žāhiru Wa Al-Bāţinu Wa Huwa Bikulli Shay'in `Alīmun

Huwa Al-Ladhī Khalaqa As-Samāwāti Wa Al-'Arđa Fī Sittati 'Ayyāmin Thumma Astawá `Alá Al-`Arshi Ya`lamu Mā Yaliju Fī Al-'Arđi Wa Mā Yakhruju Minhā Wa Mā Yanzilu Mina As-Samā'i Wa Mā Ya`ruju Fīhā Wa Huwa Ma`akum 'Ayna Mā Kuntum Wa Allāhu Bimā Ta`malūna Başīrun

Lahu Mulku As-Samāwāti Wa Al-'Arđi Wa 'Ilá Allāhi Turja`u Al-'Umūru

Yūliju Al-Layla Fī An-Nahāri Wa Yūliju An-Nahāra Fī Al-Layli Wa Huwa `Alīmun Bidhāti Aş-Şudūri

'Āminū Billāhi Wa Rasūlihi Wa 'Anfiqū Mimmā Ja`alakum Mustakhlafīna Fīhi Fa-Al-Ladhīna 'Āmanū Minkum Wa 'Anfaqū Lahum 'Ajrun Kabīrun

Wa Mā Lakum Lā Tu'uminūna Billāhi Wa Ar-Rasūlu Yad`ūkum Litu'uminū Birabbikum Wa Qad 'Akhadha Mīthāqakum 'In Kuntum Mu'uminīna

Huwa Al-Ladhī Yunazzilu `Alá `Abdihi 'Āyātin Bayyinātin Liyukhrijakum Mina Až-Žulumāti 'Ilá An-Nūri Wa 'Inna Allāha Bikum Lara'ūfun Raĥīmun

Wa Mā Lakum 'Allā Tunfiqū Fī Sabīli Allāhi Wa Lillahi Mīrāthu As-Samāwāti Wa Al-'Arđi Lā Yastawī Minkum Man 'Anfaqa Min Qabli Al-Fatĥi Wa Qātala 'Ūlā'ika 'A`žamu Darajatan Mina Al-Ladhīna 'Anfaqū Min Ba`du Wa Qātalū Wa Kullāan Wa`ada Allāhu Al-Ĥusná Wa Allāhu Bimā Ta`malūna Khabīrun

Man Dhā Al-Ladhī Yuqriđu Allāha Qarđāan Ĥasanāan Fayuđā`ifahu Lahu Wa Lahu 'Ajrun Karīmun

Yawma Tará Al-Mu'uminīna Wa Al-Mu'umināti Yas`á Nūruhum Bayna 'Aydīhim Wa Bi'aymānihim Bushrākumu Al-Yawma Jannātun Tajrī Min Taĥtihā Al-'Anhāru Khālidīna Fīhā Dhālika Huwa Al-Fawzu Al-`Ažīmu

Yawma Yaqūlu Al-Munāfiqūna Wa Al-Munāfiqātu Lilladhīna 'Āmanū Anžurūnā Naqtabis Min Nūrikum Qīla Arji`ū Warā'akum Fāltamisū Nūrāan Fađuriba Baynahum Bisūrin Lahu Bābun Bāţinuhu Fīhi Ar-Raĥmatu Wa Žāhiruhu Min Qibalihi Al-`Adhābu

Yunādūnahum 'Alam Nakun Ma`akum Qālū Balá Wa Lakinnakum Fatantum 'Anfusakum Wa Tarabbaştum Wa Artabtum Wa Gharratkumu Al-'Amānīyu Ĥattá Jā'a 'Amru Allāhi Wa Gharrakum Billāhi Al-Gharūru

Fālyawma Lā Yu'ukhadhu Minkum Fidyatun Wa Lā Mina Al-Ladhīna Kafarū Ma'wākumu An-Nāru Hiya Mawlākum Wa Bi'sa Al-Maşīru

'Alam Ya'ni Lilladhīna 'Āmanū 'An Takhsha`a Qulūbuhum Lidhikri Allāhi Wa Mā Nazala Mina Al-Ĥaqqi Wa Lā Yakūnū Kālladhīna 'Ūtū Al-Kitāba Min Qablu Faţāla `Alayhimu Al-'Amadu Faqasat Qulūbuhum Wa Kathīrun Minhum Fāsiqūna

A`lamū 'Anna Allāha Yuĥyī Al-'Arđa Ba`da Mawtihā Qad Bayyannā Lakumu Al-'Āyāti La`allakum Ta`qilūna

'Inna Al-Muşşaddiqīna Wa Al-Muşşaddiqāti Wa 'Aqrađū Allāha Qarđāan Ĥasanāan Yuđā`afu Lahum Wa Lahum 'Ajrun Karīmun

Wa Al-Ladhīna 'Āmanū Billāhi Wa Rusulihi 'Ūlā'ika Humu Aş-Şiddīqūna Wa Ash-Shuhadā'u `Inda Rabbihim Lahum 'Ajruhum Wa Nūruhum Wa Al-Ladhīna Kafarū Wa Kadhabū Bi'āyātinā 'Ūlā'ika 'Aşĥābu Al-Jaĥīmi

A`lamū 'Annamā Al-Ĥayāatu Ad-Dunyā La`ibun Wa Lahwun Wa Zīnatun Wa Tafākhurun Baynakum Wa Takāthurun Fī Al-'Amwli Wa Al-'Awlādi Kamathali Ghaythin 'A`jaba Al-Kuffāra Nabātuhu Thumma Yahīju Fatarāhu Muşfarrāan Thumma Yakūnu Ĥuţāmāan Wa Fī Al-'Ākhirati `Adhābun Shadīdun Wa Maghfiratun Mina Allāhi Wa Riđwānun Wa Mā Al-Ĥayāatu Ad-Dunyā 'Illā Matā`u Al-Ghurūri

Sābiqū 'Ilá Maghfiratin Min Rabbikum Wa Jannatin `Arđuhā Ka`arđi As-Samā'i Wa Al-'Arđi 'U`iddat Lilladhīna 'Āmanū Billāhi Wa Rusulihi Dhālika Fađlu Allāhi Yu'utīhi Man Yashā'u Wa Allāhu Dhū Al-Fađli Al-`Ažīmi

Mā 'Aşāba Min Muşībatin Fī Al-'Arđi Wa Lā Fī 'Anfusikum 'Illā Fī Kitābin Min Qabli 'An Nabra'ahā 'Inna Dhālika `Alá Allāhi Yasīrun

Likaylā Ta'saw `Alá Mā Fātakum Wa Lā Tafraĥū Bimā 'Ātākum Wa Allāhu Lā Yuĥibbu Kulla Mukhtālin Fakhūrin

Al-Ladhīna Yabkhalūna Wa Ya'murūna An-Nāsa Bil-Bukhli Wa Man Yatawalla Fa'inna Allāha Huwa Al-Ghanīyu Al-Ĥamīdu

Laqad 'Arsalnā Rusulanā Bil-Bayyināti Wa 'Anzalnā Ma`ahumu Al-Kitāba Wa Al-Mīzāna Liyaqūma An-Nāsu Bil-Qisţi Wa 'Anzalnā Al-Ĥadīda Fīhi Ba'sun Shadīdun Wa Manāfi`u Lilnnāsi Wa Liya`lama Allāhu Man Yanşuruhu Wa Rusulahu Bil-Ghaybi 'Inna Allāha Qawīyun `Azīzun

Wa Laqad 'Arsalnā Nūĥāan Wa 'Ibrāhīma Wa Ja`alnā Fī Dhurrīyatihimā An-Nubūwata Wa Al-Kitāba Faminhum Muhtadin Wa Kathīrun Minhum Fāsiqūna

Thumma Qaffaynā `Alá 'Āthārihim Birusulinā Wa Qaffaynā Bi`īsá Abni Maryama Wa 'Ātaynāhu Al-'Injīla Wa Ja`alnā Fī Qulūbi Al-Ladhīna Attaba`ūhu Ra'fatan Wa Raĥmatan Wa Rahbānīyatan Abtada`ūhā Mā Katabnāhā `Alayhim 'Illā Abtighā'a Riđwāni Allāhi Famā Ra`awhā Ĥaqqa Ri`āyatihā Fa'ātaynā Al-Ladhīna 'Āmanū Minhum 'Ajrahum Wa Kathīrun Minhum Fāsiqūna

Yā 'Ayyuhā Al-Ladhīna 'Āmanū Attaqū Allāha Wa 'Āminū Birasūlihi Yu'utikum Kiflayni Min Raĥmatihi Wa Yaj`al Lakum Nūrāan Tamshūna Bihi Wa Yaghfir Lakum Wa Allāhu Ghafūrun Raĥīmun

Li'allā Ya`lama 'Ahlu Al-Kitābi 'Allā Yaqdirūna `Alá Shay'in Min Fađli Allāhi Wa 'Anna Al-Fađla Biyadi Allāhi Yu'utīhi Man Yashā'u Wa Allāhu Dhū Al-Fađli Al-`Ažīmi

 

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Hi Andalusi

 

When you tell me you “know” that there is no coincidence in the quran you are telling me that you have left reason behind and you have leapt into faith.  Reason says that you must examine all the possibilities but faith does not demand this because you already “know” the answer.  Most Christians hold their beliefs for this reason, most muslims do too but then most Buddhists do as well and most Hindu’s in fact most religious people regardless of the fact that their beliefs are contradictory of eachother hold that faith is enough and reason is not required.  I disagree.

 

Let’s leave open the question of how many chemical elements are mentioned in ‘The Iron’ until we can really test what you say.

 

Yes “Moby Di-ck” did indeed show some chemical elements incorrectly spaced but we don’t yet know how many such the quran contains so we’ll have to leave that question open.  When I tested the earlier translation my program found many such in the quran but I’ve posted a transliterated text of ‘The Iron’ for you to examine and with luck we’ll be able to move this part of the discussion forwards.

 

No I’m not going to just jump to the next miracle claim when this one still has some examining to go.  Jumping to the next ‘miracle’ each time someone challenges your claims is an old creationist tactic and I’m not buying into that one.  Lets sort out an acceptable transliteration and we’ll move forwards with that.

 

Russell

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