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I was interested to see the following item in the news:

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jykaHV-_iXi7BvQ25fYugf3EmGzQ?docId=CNG.7f0f485b0dc865f9ad98d6f0176397d7.a81

 

Particularly perhaps related to a video clip posted on this forum a few weeks ago. The clip showed a Muslim preacher telling his audience that Mohammad had decreed in the Quran that tombs should not be of a greater height than (I think) half a metre. This is relating to what I think is Islam's obsession with idolatry.

But surely this instruction shouldn't be interpreted in a way that people existing over a thousand years in the future should destroy or desicrate graves held dear by many faithful Mulims and others?

This dictate was surely an instruction intended to commence from that from that point in time onward. Otherwise there would be no end to the destruction of ancient tombs erected by people of any faith by the ultra faithful/fanatical, whenever they felt like it.

 

Perhaps this was a case of certain people 'wanting to please their masters'.

 

Regards,

 

ron

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The issue of tombs, graves, saints, etc has been discussed here in the past. What they did in Timbuktu is not only legal in Islam but a duty upon an Islamic government. There is no such thing as a 'saint' in Islam.

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I was interested to see the following item in the news:

 

http://www.google.co...6f0176397d7.a81

 

Particularly perhaps related to a video clip posted on this forum a few weeks ago. The clip showed a Muslim preacher telling his audience that Mohammad had decreed in the Quran that tombs should not be of a greater height than (I think) half a metre. This is relating to what I think is Islam's obsession with idolatry.

But surely this instruction shouldn't be interpreted in a way that people existing over a thousand years in the future should destroy or desicrate graves held dear by many faithful Mulims and others?

This dictate was surely an instruction intended to commence from that from that point in time onward. Otherwise there would be no end to the destruction of ancient tombs erected by people of any faith by the ultra faithful/fanatical, whenever they felt like it.

 

Perhaps this was a case of certain people 'wanting to please their masters'.

 

Regards,

 

ron

 

Ron,

 

Would you like to go into more details on how graves are in Islam ? I can help with a search for you if you like :) because this matter would be more clear if the origin of it was clear, which is how should graves be like in Islam

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The issue of tombs, graves, saints, etc has been discussed here in the past. What they did in Timbuktu is not only legal in Islam but a duty upon an Islamic government. There is no such thing as a 'saint' in Islam.

 

i agree with brother, SaracenSolder, that have to be a governmental responsibility according to the legal system in the country.

 

while in case the govenments didn't do its work, the indeviduals and groups should keep advising those who honor such places (which may reach the case of Shirk) and keep pushing the government to do its duty in saving those people and the next generations as well. and not try to change a sin causing a greater sins for example Moslem fighting each other.

 

Allah knows best,

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The issue of tombs, graves, saints, etc has been discussed here in the past. What they did in Timbuktu is not only legal in Islam but a duty upon an Islamic government. There is no such thing as a 'saint' in Islam.

 

So you're saying it's the correct thing to do, to destroy graves which are not of the prescribed size? And would this apply to non-muslim graves?

I presume this link would be relevant regarding who or what might be defined as a 'saint': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint#Islam

 

Maybe it would be appropriote to destroy the Kabaa itself then?

 

But you havn't answered my question regarding the meaning of the actual quranic statement.

 

It seems as if you'll have plenty of work on your hands anyway.

 

ron

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i agree with brother, SaracenSolder, that have to be a governmental responsibility according to the legal system in the country.

 

while in case the govenments didn't do its work, the indeviduals and groups should keep advising those who honor such places (which may reach the case of Shirk) and keep pushing the government to do its duty in saving those people and the next generations as well. and not try to change a sin causing a greater sins for example Moslem fighting each other.

 

Allah knows best,

 

I think Saracen is referring to an ideal Shariah government.

 

ron

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Graves of the dead , Tombs of the dead , should not be desecrated ,they are there because those who put them there were obviously tolerated in the past ,and should intern be tolerated and respected today . No matter what the religion .Tombs of respected or prominent men [or women] who have been honored by such tombs should be left alone .These are not places of worship , but places to venerate . BTW , "saints " are merely those people who it can be reasonably assumed , to have gained heaven upon their deaths , some of the living can be called saints . Popes confer sainthood upon individuals but this is mostly ceremonious . Saints are not to be worshipped , but they ,ay be venerated .

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So you're saying it's the correct thing to do, to destroy graves which are not of the prescribed size? And would this apply to non-muslim graves?

 

I'm not saying anything. According to Islam it is legal. Secondly, we are talking about graves, tombs, shrines, etc that people go to and commit disbelief by praying to the dead person. Now I'm sure even you would acknowledge that is insanely stupid. As for non-Muslim graves, tombs, I don't know. I'm assuming if a land comes under Islamic governance and people are worshiping some dead guy then probably. But I don't know what the actual law is regarding that.

 

Maybe it would be appropriote to destroy the Kabaa itself then?

 

Why would that be appropriate? There is no person there nor a grave. Nor does anyone worship it.

 

But you havn't answered my question regarding the meaning of the actual quranic statement.

 

Well you didn't post any Quranic verse or statement. 1400+ years of scholarly work and clear cut orders from the Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the actions of the Sahaba(ra) have shown us what it means.

 

BTW, Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not dictate anything in the Quran. God did.

 

It seems as if you'll have plenty of work on your hands anyway.

 

When did I become a government official in an Islamic state? lol This is not about me and what I am saying. I am merely telling you what Islam says on this issue.

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I'm not saying anything. According to Islam it is legal. Secondly, we are talking about graves, tombs, shrines, etc that people go to and commit disbelief by praying to the dead person. Now I'm sure even you would acknowledge that is insanely stupid. As for non-Muslim graves, tombs, I don't know. I'm assuming if a land comes under Islamic governance and people are worshiping some dead guy then probably. But I don't know what the actual law is regarding that.

 

 

 

Why would that be appropriate? There is no person there nor a grave. Nor does anyone worship it.

 

 

 

Well you didn't post any Quranic verse or statement. 1400+ years of scholarly work and clear cut orders from the Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the actions of the Sahaba(ra) have shown us what it means.

 

BTW, Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not dictate anything in the Quran. God did.

 

 

 

When did I become a government official in an Islamic state? lol This is not about me and what I am saying. I am merely telling you what Islam says on this issue.

 

I totally agree on the replies above and again to be clear on this point there has to be knowledge about two points:

1. How graves are built in Islam.

2. The muslims that have gone astray and seek help from the dead.

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I totally agree on the replies above and again to be clear on this point there has to be knowledge about two points:

1. How graves are built in Islam.

2. The muslims that have gone astray and seek help from the dead.

 

I find this a little confusing when you say that the person is dead. I thought that you believe in eternal life! The body may be dead but surely you believe that the spirit lives on.

 

Even I would not think it is insanely stupid (sic) to pray to a living spirit. Nobody can tell another person who to pray to anyway, I believe. You can tell them why you think they shouldn't but you do not have the right to order them not to. This is one of the things I dislike about militant Islam.

 

Also I seem to remember that 'The Intercessor' is a recognised divine name (please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

The Kaaba used to contain items idolators would worship didn't it? And it certainly appears to be worshipped as an idol would be today.

 

Furthermore, aren't Muslims who grow their beards in order to emulate the prophet Muhammad (saw) guilty of idolatory?

 

Regards,

 

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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I find this a little confusing when you say that the person is dead. I thought that you believe in eternal life! The body may be dead but surely you believe that the spirit lives on.

 

Even I would not think it is insanely stupid (sic) to pray to a living spirit. Nobody can tell another person who to pray to anyway, I believe. You can tell them why you think they shouldn't but you do not have the right to order them not to. This is one of the things I dislike about militant Islam.

 

 

 

In Islam, the soul of the dead muslim is of no use for the living muslims, it will not benefit them or harm them in any way.

 

Also in Islam, praying to others than Allah/God is forbidden, and that's not by militants, its by any Islamic scholar or institute, its totally forbidden.

 

 

Also I seem to remember that 'The Intercessor' is a recognised divine name (please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

I don't understand you clearly in that, but having an intermediary between a muslin and god is forbidden and a great sin in Islam, there are righteous muslims and scholars, we love them and follow their teachings and their knowledge as a guide to us since they would be having more of it than regular muslims like me. Any muslim can be a scholar, only if he studies a lot.

 

The Kaaba used to contain items idolators would worship didn't it? And it certainly appears to be worshipped as an idol would be today.

 

It is not worshiped, and who ever worship is is committing a major sin in Islam.

 

Furthermore, aren't Muslims who grow their beards in order to emulate the prophet Muhammad (saw) guilty of idolatory?

 

Can you explain to me why you think it is please.

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In Islam, the soul of the dead muslim is of no use for the living muslims, it will not benefit them or harm them in any way.

 

I don't know how or why you have this belief. I take it you are making a distinction between a soul and a spirit. What of the spirit world? Can you be so certain that that will not benefit or harm anybody? Where/what is the soul or the spirit when it is in paradise or hell (as you believe, literally)?

 

Also in Islam, praying to others than Allah/God is forbidden, and that's not by militants, its by any Islamic scholar or institute, its totally forbidden.

 

How can it be forbidden to pray to any spirit, thing, object or prophet? Who are the prayer police?

 

 

 

 

I don't understand you clearly in that, but having an intermediary between a muslin and god is forbidden and a great sin in Islam, there are righteous muslims and scholars, we love them and follow their teachings and their knowledge as a guide to us since they would be having more of it than regular muslims like me. Any muslim can be a scholar, only if he studies a lot.

 

This sounds contradictory to me. If you are using these people's knowledge to guide you then you are having an intermediary, are you not? How do you judge a scholar? Not by examinations he (she?) has passed, but because, I would guess, that they appear to be knowledgable.

Different emphasis and stress may be put on different elements of Qur'anic teachings. So how do you know what the individual 'scholar' has in his mind? I don't think there is any recognised 'body of knowledge' regarding these things. Perhaps there should be!

 

 

It is not worshiped, and who ever worship is is committing a major sin in Islam.

 

 

 

Can you explain to me why you think it is please.

 

From my perspective, and from a lot of others in the West, I'm afraid it just looks silly to copy a beard (or a hairstyle or whatever) of somebody. Why would they do this except to emulate - which is close to worship - them? Nowadays we would call it 'hero worship', which again is very close to idolatory, is it not?

Furthermore, at risk of causing offence, if Muhammad is simply 'dead', and, as you say, his soul therefore is of no use to living Muslims, why would anyone need or be required to say pbuh? Irrespective of anything else, this would appear to be insulting to me anyway.

 

Forgive me if this post isn't too clear, I haven't quite understood how to highlight various bits of your post yet.

 

Regards,

 

Ron

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Graves of the dead , Tombs of the dead , should not be desecrated ,they are there because those who put them there were obviously tolerated in the past ,and should intern be tolerated and respected today . No matter what the religion .Tombs of respected or prominent men [or women] who have been honored by such tombs should be left alone .These are not places of worship , but places to venerate . BTW , "saints " are merely those people who it can be reasonably assumed , to have gained heaven upon their deaths , some of the living can be called saints . Popes confer sainthood upon individuals but this is mostly ceremonious . Saints are not to be worshipped , but they ,ay be venerated .

 

I agree with you, they are part of the rich history that the world exhibits. People should be free to worship where and who they wish, surely. This is what I meant by the term 'Militant Islam', a dictaorship - and lo and behold - this is what we have in most so-called Islamic countries in the world today. Not that I think that there is any major problem with so -called idolatory, unless one wishes to include the worship of money and so on in this.

I think that this sort of thing is just stirring up trouble anyway.

Having just returned from Egypt, I dread to think what the world could become if these people were to commence a serious witch-hunt resulting in the destruction of all artifacts of ancient civilisations. Its just simply plain narrow mindedness to my mind.

 

regards,

ron

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To answer your points with more details, because you seem you need to go into the small details which is totally fine with me :)

 

About the spirits/souls in Islam

 

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/4395/%D8%A3%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%AD

 

 

About praying or worshiping other than god in Islam

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/34817/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83

 

 

Any scholar would be expected to have his knowledge from quran and hadith , thinking of him as an intermediary is not even close to what I have in mind, as I said any muslim who dedicates his life to study in quran and hadith can be a scholar. You asked how would I judge a scholar, well, how would I judge a doctor, teacher, engineer etc etc.

 

For the beard, it was mentioned in hadith that muslim men can/should have beards.

 

Saying peace be upon him was teached to us in quran. And asking forgiveness for dead people is allowed in Islam.

 

I hope I covered you inquires, and I would not mind in trying to help more :)

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When graves are disrupted , holy places defiled etc . This does nothing but create MORE strife in a world that already has too much . Mutual respect is the first rule of getting along with anyone . Disrespect for anothers traditions or sentimentalities is a sure way to start a fight , and we all know where that leads . If something has existed befdore you , it should be left alone , and if it offends to the point of destroying it , then that is called intolerance .The Maya of Central America are said to have engaged in human sacrifice , that is an offensive thing to most , but not an excuse to destroy the Pyramids they left behind , the structures of Tihuanaca predate anything ever built by man by several millenia .....they are and should be left alone . One would not destroy Stonehenge , nor the Great Sphynx or the Great pyramids of Giza .

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When graves are disrupted , holy places defiled etc . This does nothing but create MORE strife in a world that already has too much . Mutual respect is the first rule of getting along with anyone . Disrespect for anothers traditions or sentimentalities is a sure way to start a fight , and we all know where that leads . If something has existed befdore you , it should be left alone , and if it offends to the point of destroying it , then that is called intolerance .The Maya of Central America are said to have engaged in human sacrifice , that is an offensive thing to most , but not an excuse to destroy the Pyramids they left behind , the structures of Tihuanaca predate anything ever built by man by several millenia .....they are and should be left alone . One would not destroy Stonehenge , nor the Great Sphynx or the Great pyramids of Giza .

 

Well .. I think if anyone wants to know how graves should be in Islam, they should learn about it from Islamic sources, that would clear any misunderstanding.

For other countries or nations or beliefs having other types of graves with different built or shape, I am sure its not the concern of any muslim al all

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Well .. I think if anyone wants to know how graves should be in Islam, they should learn about it from Islamic sources, that would clear any misunderstanding.

For other countries or nations or beliefs having other types of graves with different built or shape, I am sure its not the concern of any muslim al all

 

But what I was interested in finding out is the diferrence between how the graves should be NOW and how it was prescribed in the Qu'ran that they should be (I still don't know the actual verse(s) in question).

Also I have heard it said that actually there are no truly Muslim countries in the world. Islam - at least, as it is described on this forum - exists, it would seem, only as a fundamental theoretical construct but does not have any existence in any real form. This is, of course, unless you count the reality of global Islam, existing without the contraint or boundaries of actual existing countries or their laws.

 

Idolatry being the issue here, and the implentation of Islamic law. I remember when the Taliban in Afhanistan destroyed the Buddhas of Bamiyan in 2001 on the gorounds that they were 'Un-Islamic' and wonder if a wave of fundamentalism might result in some similar actions.

 

Regards,

 

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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Here is a grave area in Madina in KSA, that how it was since the prophet pbuh time

 

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http://www.gawaher.com/topic/738637-things-we-do-thinking-its-Islam/

 

This was the video clip I was referring to.

Based on a hadith, the preacher appears to be instructing the audience to level any grave which exceeds the prescribed height to the ground.

 

I think it's unnessary, inflamatory and inconsiderate. There would be much violence and bloodshed if the large tomb erected in respect and reverance to certain saints were to be attacked.

 

Regards,

 

ron

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http://www.gawaher.c...king-its-Islam/

 

This was the video clip I was referring to.

Based on a hadith, the preacher appears to be instructing the audience to level any grave which exceeds the prescribed height to the ground.

 

I think it's unnessary, inflamatory and inconsiderate. There would be much violence and bloodshed if the large tomb erected in respect and reverance to certain saints were to be attacked.

 

Regards,

 

ron

 

That's an excellent video I must say, calling muslims to follow the teachings of the prophet pbuh. But I must say that he is not calling for normal muslims to do it, it would be the responsibility of the religious institute to do implementing this like Ahmed_73 has mentioned above

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That's an excellent video I must say, calling muslims to follow the teachings of the prophet pbuh. But I must say that he is not calling for normal muslims to do it, it would be the responsibility of the religious institute to do implementing this like Ahmed_73 has mentioned above

 

Are his audience not normal Muslims then?

Don't you see any potential 'problems' in interfering with existing graves?

 

regards,

 

ron

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So just to return to where this thread began: http://www.google.co...6f0176397d7.a81

 

Was this a 'mistake' or not?

 

regards,

 

ron

 

Yes it was, if there was a dead person in it. And as it was mentioned, its the responsibility of the authorities to remove such grave that was not built Islamicly

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Yes it was, if there was a dead person in it. And as it was mentioned, its the responsibility of the authorities to remove such grave that was not built Islamicly

 

Yes, thanks. The question is: who actually are 'the authorities'.

 

regards,

 

ron

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Yes, thanks. The question is: who actually are 'the authorities'.

 

regards,

 

ron

 

The highest religious entity and the government

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