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Why do you falsely separate Islam from moslems?

 

Because:

 

Islam=Religion

 

Muslims=Human beings

 

Trust me you won't be able to prove anything from Islam that supports "heinous crimes". But you can try if you want. Or you can simply just admit that you can not "assist" any Muslim with regards to Islam.

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Muslims don't always follow Islam. Just like any other religion...or non-religion. Even George W. Bush made the correct pronouncement when he declared Islam to be a religion of peace.

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Because:

 

Islam=Religion

 

Muslims=Human beings

 

Trust me you won't be able to prove anything from Islam that supports "heinous crimes". But you can try if you want. Or you can simply just admit that you can not "assist" any Muslim with regards to Islam.

I'm guessing that you must believe that it isn't moslems at all who are the suicide bombers. It's all some vast conspiracy, right?

 

Have you ever taken the time to study the politico-religious ideology you claim to follow?

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Muslims don't always follow Islam. Just like any other religion...or non-religion. Even George W. Bush made the correct pronouncement when he declared Islam to be a religion of peace.

Like many Western converts, you have never had any experience with Islam other than as a tool for attention-seeking.

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Considering that my father works in Saudi Arabia for a Muslim-owned construction and engineering company...I actually am not so clueless as you might imagine. And pray tell...how much personal experience do you have with the Muslims in the Middle East?

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I'm guessing that you must believe that it isn't moslems at all who are the suicide bombers. It's all some vast conspiracy, right?

 

Have you ever taken the time to study the politico-religious ideology you claim to follow?

 

Yeah. I guessed you wouldn't be able to.

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I feel for the muslims that live in the US, they have it hard!

 

I have never understood why people find it difficult to understand that there can be bad muslims just like there are bad humans! when you think about the population of the muslims in the world and those who carry out these crimes the % is tiny so how can you label a whole nation of people based on a tiny %???

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Well, show us where in the RELIGION does it "legitimizes" heinous crimes? Where is the Quran and Sunnah does it allow to kill innocent people?! You said you will lend an assist regarding "the religion" yet after that all you have done is talk about what some Muslims(not moslems) might or might not have done. That is not "the religion". Show us from the Quran and Sunnah where Islam legitimizes "heinous crimes"?

 

I sorry to have to remind you that quite recently 'Younes' an IF Guardian called adultery a 'henious' crime for which the appropriote punishment would be stoning to death. "A heinous punishment for a heinous crime" was what he said.

What do you have to say about that?

 

regards,

 

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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I feel for the muslims that live in the US, they have it hard!

 

I have never understood why people find it difficult to understand that there can be bad muslims just like there are bad humans! when you think about the population of the muslims in the world and those who carry out these crimes the % is tiny so how can you label a whole nation of people based on a tiny %???

 

This is true, that there are good people and bad people, religious or not.

But you must be blind (or very young) to not have noticed the extraordinary rise in the numbers of suicide bombings over the last 10 -20 years, by so-called muslims. Thats why they have become infamous for it. Or would you blame this upon some other group (i.e. not Sunni or Shia Muslims or Wahabis or other 'sects' coming under the blanket of Islam)?

 

regards,

 

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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I agree there has been an increase and from reports these suggest that they are muslims who carry them out. However it is still something that will and always will be wrong according to Islam. Suicide is forbidden and so is causing harm to innocent people. I do not agree with the blame game, as I feel there is enough to go around for everyone. This again takes me back to my point that even though there has been an increase the percentage is still next to nothing compared to the overall population. Why are the muslims now infamous for something an amazingly small minority has carried out over the last 10-20 years and not instead judged on what the great majority has done for the last 14 and half centuries.

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I agree there has been an increase and from reports these suggest that they are muslims who carry them out. However it is still something that will and always will be wrong according to Islam. Suicide is forbidden and so is causing harm to innocent people. I do not agree with the blame game, as I feel there is enough to go around for everyone. This again takes me back to my point that even though there has been an increase the percentage is still next to nothing compared to the overall population. Why are the muslims now infamous for something an amazingly small minority has carried out over the last 10-20 years and not instead judged on what the great majority has done for the last 14 and half centuries.

 

Yes, there is a huge amount of work to be done in the Muslim world it would seem. Also in virtually every other country. But generally in Europe say, it is a very infrequent occurrance for mass bombings to take place.

But when you say 'an amazingly small minority' of Muslims have comitted (suicide) bombings then it should be remembered that their victims have proably been many more than 10 dead for every bomber. Sometimes the numbers running into hundreds.

But I wonder why it is that so many Muslims do not or will not accept what must be a very well known dictate from the Qu'ran, i.e. that as you say, suicide is forbidden and that which causes harm to innocent people. Do they think the Qur'an is simply wrong or do they think they can bend the rules because of the verses mentioning 'Jihad'?

 

regards,

 

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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What 'so many' are we talking about? Yes, there are some who take the Qur'an out of context and twist it to suit their own purposes. If you take things out of context with any holy book, it is easy to skew the meaning to what you want. It is simply wrong.

 

But for what was mentioned...considering that there are over a billion Muslims in the world today, there is a very small minority that do these things. I'd say well under 1% to be honest. Now that doesn't mean other Muslims aren't upset or anything about what is going on, it's just that they will follow the Qur'an and its teachings. But the suicide bombers are not following the Qur'an's teachings and are instead being taken advantage of by unscrupulous men.

 

As I've said before, judging the entire group for the actions of a very small minority is wrong. The way you measure a person is 1 on 1, what they do and how they are. Not as a group that has been demonized by others. (This applies to Christianity too by the way.)

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Yes, there is a huge amount of work to be done in the Muslim world it would seem. Also in virtually every other country. But generally in Europe say, it is a very infrequent occurrance for mass bombings to take place.

But when you say 'an amazingly small minority' of Muslims have comitted (suicide) bombings then it should be remembered that their victims have proably been many more than 10 dead for every bomber. Sometimes the numbers running into hundreds.

But I wonder why it is that so many Muslims do not or will not accept what must be a very well known dictate from the Qu'ran, i.e. that as you say, suicide is forbidden and that which causes harm to innocent people. Do they think the Qur'an is simply wrong or do they think they can bend the rules because of the verses mentioning 'Jihad'?

 

regards,

 

ron

 

If someone believes that Qur'an is wrong, he/she is not a Muslim. There is a limit on tolerance of stupidity, but when stupidity reaches it's pinnacle- post with such remarks is seen. You have been in this forum for more than 5 years. Any sane human should know by this time that if someone is Muslim he/she must accept the Qur'an as infallible Word of God. And did I forget to say that you even had the name 'Islam' next to the 'Religion' of your profile for quite a long time?

 

 

Change your trolling attitude. Do not think that you can fool Muslims so easily.

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If someone believes that Qur'an is wrong, he/she is not a Muslim. There is a limit of stupidity, but when stupidity reaches it's pinnacle- post of such quality is seen. You have been in this forum for more than 5 years. Any sane human should know by this time that if someone is Muslim he/she must accept the Qur'an as infallible Word of God. And did I forget to say that you even had the name 'Islam' next to the 'Religion' of your profile for quite a long time?

 

 

Change your trolling attitude. Do not think that you can fool Muslims so easily.

 

I don't believe you need to be rude and dissmissive. What do you mean by: "There is a limit of stupidity, but when stupidity reaches it's pinnacle- post of such quality is seen".? Please explain.

There are plenty of ordinary people like myself who have been amazed and appalled by the number of suicide bombings there have been; we cant help but be appalled but feel unable to do anything about them.

I accept what you say, that if one is Muslim then one must acccept that the Qur'an as the infallible word of God. I'm not saying I myself can agree with that but I accept that that is what Muslims believe. Why turn this into a personal attack on me? I was simply trying to find out more about the mindset of a suicide bomber: therefore I repeat:

"But I wonder why it is that so many Muslims do not or will not accept what must be a very well known dictate from the Qu'ran, i.e. that as you say, suicide is forbidden and that which causes harm to innocent people. Do they think the Qur'an is simply wrong or do they think they can bend the rules because of the verses mentioning 'Jihad'?" I would really like to know what the reasons are!

You seem to be trying to twist my post to mean that I think the majority of Muslims are to blame for suicide bombings. Why? I don't believe that at all. But I have noticed that, much as many Muslims must squirm, many may also think that suicide bombings are tolerable.

 

Could you be so good as to explain what a 'trolling attitude' is? Is this the latest buzz word on this forum?

How and what am I supposed to be trying to be 'fooling Muslims' into?

You are coming over as being paranoid.

 

regards,

 

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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I sorry to have to remind you that quite recently 'Younes' an IF Guardian called adultery a 'henious' crime for which the appropriote punishment would be stoning to death. "A heinous punishment for a heinous crime" was what he said.

What do you have to say about that?

 

regards,

 

ron

 

I have nothing to say about that. I agree with him. But that is not a crime. It is part of the criminal code of a Nation or ideology. A secular person would not view adultery as something wrong, however a person of a religion will. Even Christians and Jews would see adultery as a crime.

 

The Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh or Old Testament) prohibits adultery in the seventh of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:14). Adultery in traditional Judaism applies equally to both parties, but it only applied in situations where the woman is married (Lev. 20:10). The punishment in the Hebrew bible for adultery is stoning to death.

 

Though the Torah prescribes the death penalty for adultery, the legal procedural requirements were very exacting and required the testimony of two eye-witnesses of good character for conviction. The defendant also must have been warned immediately before performing the act.[27] A death sentence could be issued only during the period when the Holy Temple stood, and only so long as the Supreme Torah Court convened in its chamber within the Temple complex.[28] Today, therefore, no death penalty applies, but the transgressor is liable to death at the hand of Heaven.

 

http://en.wikipedia....hamic_religions

 

 

But look. Lets not divert attention from post number 1. This thread is about Obama and his murderous drone campaign.

 

As for suicide bombers? Everyone wants to not say a word about the hundreds of Muslim deaths every day thanks to drones, etc. But yet you come here and keep attacking Suicide bombers. I am not defending this but clearly if they had drones or tanks or F-16 Hornets they would not be doing it. A Palestinian man who just saw his entire family murdered in front of him and has no way of getting justice or to defend his family will turn to such things.

 

But the problem is why are you attacking Suicide bombers for killing civilians(the ones that target civilians that is) but you have nothing to say about the drones and the daily death that they rain down on innocent Muslim civilians?

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I don't believe you need to be rude and dissmissive. What do you mean by: "There is a limit of stupidity, but when stupidity reaches it's pinnacle- post of such quality is seen".? Please explain.

There are plenty of ordinary people like myself who have been amazed and appalled by the number of suicide bombings there have been; we cant help but be appalled but feel unable to do anything about them.

I accept what you say, that if one is Muslim then one must acccept that the Qur'an as the infallible word of God. I'm not saying I myself can agree with that but I accept that that is what Muslims believe. Why turn this into a personal attack on me? I was simply trying to find out more about the mindset of a suicide bomber: therefore I repeat:

"But I wonder why it is that so many Muslims do not or will not accept what must be a very well known dictate from the Qu'ran, i.e. that as you say, suicide is forbidden and that which causes harm to innocent people. Do they think the Qur'an is simply wrong or do they think they can bend the rules because of the verses mentioning 'Jihad'?" I would really like to know what the reasons are!

You seem to be trying to twist my post to mean that I think the majority of Muslims are to blame for suicide bombings. Why? I don't believe that at all. But I have noticed that, much as many Muslims must squirm, many may also think that suicide bombings are tolerable.

 

Could you be so good as to explain what a 'trolling attitude' is? Is this the latest buzz word on this forum?

How and what am I supposed to be trying to be 'fooling Muslims' into?

You are coming over as being paranoid.

 

regards,

 

ron

 

There was nothing rude in my post. I was just simply stating the obvious. I didn't even say 'Ron is a(n) idiot/fool'. On the contrary you are attacking me, and trying twist your sentences to hide the childish errors of your post.

 

It's not my duty to give further explanation of my post. Because there is nothing for me to explain further. It is so clear. After spending so much time on researching Islam (you are here for more than 5years) if you make those remarks, you will get what you deserve.

 

Peace

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There was nothing rude in my post. I was just simply stating the obvious. I didn't even say 'Ron is a(n) idiot/fool'. On the contrary you are attacking me, and trying twist your sentences to hide the childish errors of your post.

 

It's not my duty to give further explanation of my post. Because there is nothing for me to explain further. It is so clear. After spending so much time on researching Islam (you are here for more than 5years) if you make those remarks, you will get what you deserve.

 

Peace

 

I really don't have a clue as to what it is I've said to upset you. Surely if you can see what you call 'childish errors' in my post and I don't know to what you are referring then you perhaps might feel obligated to inform me. This is a civilised forum - I was lead to believe.

 

regards,

ron

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Regarding the adultery issue, I admit I slightly got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I saw the 'crime' of adultery called a 'heinous crime'. Well, I can think of far more heinous crimes and I'm afraid I still find that judgement pretty shocking, given the world in which we live.

 

But to turn to the main body of your post:

 

Please don't say "I come here and keep attacking suicde bombers". In over 5 years on this forum, I would guess that I have mentioned suicide bombers about 3 times. Attacking suicide bombers! Imagine that.

It's not true that I have nothing to say about the killing of innocent Muslims. Isn't it enough to condemn the killing of civilians in general? Actually I'd go further and condemn the killing of anyone or anything, but thats another matter. Violence breeds violence, hatred breeds hatred. Why is it that humanity cannot learn such a simple lesson? No, - one side preferably needs to completely annihilate the other side. Then there will be no more threat. isn't this a pretty simple truth?

You started a topic here which you hoped would be provocative (I'd aready read about this in the newspapers, so it came as no surprise to me when I saw it).

All I did was to wonder who started all this killing.

 

And it is you, my friend who have attempted to divert attention away from the real question which I posed: how can it be that these bombers have got the Qu'ran so wrong that they can commit these acts?

It's just a simple question which arose from the topic. Why start condeming me. Do you need a scapegoat?

 

ron

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As for suicide bombers? Everyone wants to not say a word about the hundreds of Muslim deaths every day thanks to drones, etc. But yet you come here and keep attacking Suicide bombers. I am not defending this but clearly if they had drones or tanks or F-16 Hornets they would not be doing it. A Palestinian man who just saw his entire family murdered in front of him and has no way of getting justice or to defend his family will turn to such things.

 

But the problem is why are you attacking Suicide bombers for killing civilians(the ones that target civilians that is) but you have nothing to say about the drones and the daily death that they rain down on innocent Muslim civilians?

 

 

 

 

Regarding the adultery issue, I admit I slightly got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I saw the 'crime' of adultery called a 'heinous crime'. Well, I can think of far more heinous crimes and I'm afraid I still find that judgement pretty shocking, given the world in which we live.

 

But to turn to the main body of your post:

 

Please don't say "I come here and keep attacking suicde bombers". In over 5 years on this forum, I would guess that I have mentioned suicide bombers about 3 times. Attacking suicide bombers! Imagine that.

It's not true that I have nothing to say about the killing of innocent Muslims. Isn't it enough to condemn the killing of civilians in general? Actually I'd go further and condemn the killing of anyone or anything, but thats another matter. Violence breeds violence, hatred breeds hatred. Why is it that humanity cannot learn such a simple lesson? No, - one side preferably needs to completely annihilate the other side. Then there will be no more threat. isn't this a pretty simple truth?

You started a topic here which you hoped would be provocative (I'd aready read about this in the newspapers, so it came as no surprise to me when I saw it).

All I did was to wonder who started all this killing.

 

And it is you, my friend who have attempted to divert attention away from the real question which I posed: how can it be that these bombers have got the Qu'ran so wrong that they can commit these acts?

It's just a simple question which arose from the topic. Why start condeming me. Do you need a scapegoat?

 

ron

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To speak on the issue I have with adultery is I do view it as a heinous crime of such. That view hasn't changed with my reversion either. I've seen the effects of adultery in the flesh and still cringe when I hear it laughed off as unimportant. Destroying people's lives and trust and love is not unimportant.

 

Second, to get back to the suicide bombers portion. I'd never support nor condone suicide bombers. As was said however, people do some very bad things when pushed to a certain point. And they also become willing to leave their morals aside at that point. Not all war criminals for example are evil people either, they just let their moral judgement be impaired and they adopted a stance that someone else said would make them feel better. So yes, they go against the Qur'an.

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Hi and thanks for your reply.

 

I do think heinous is a very strong word to use for such a thing. Particularly as a crime invoking the death penalty by stoning! But if Muslims want to believe in that then it's up to them. But surely the word incest might replace the word adultery? As I've said, I can think of far worse things - what punishments might be devised for those unspeakable things?

 

Regarding the suicide bombers: I agree that there are reasons behind them. But - and there are a few buts, I think once anyone gets inurred to violence and killing then they are on a very slippery slope. Thats why I have turned against Islam. Christianity and Buddhism seems far more compassionate than the fiery Qu'ran - too much like the old testement for my liking!

 

regards,

 

Ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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Hi and thanks for your reply.

 

I do think heinous is a very strong word to use for such a thing. Particularly as a crime invoking the death penalty. But if Muslims want to believe in that then it's up to them. But surely the word incest might replace the word adultery? As I've said I can think of far worse things - what punishments might be devised for those unspeakable things?

 

Regarding the suicide bombers: I agree that these thing have reasons behind them. But - and there are a few buts, I think once anyone gets inurred to violence and killing then they are on a very slippery slope. Thats why I have turned against Islam. Christianity and Buddhism seems far more compassionate than the fiery Qu'ran - too much like the old testement for my liking!

 

regards,

 

Ron

 

To be honest, I've been told by many Christian pastors that Christianity has now become a religion of hate in particular places. After all, in the US, there have been Southern Baptist pastors that have called on fathers to beat their children if they perceive them to be different because they might be gay and you have to beat it out of them, cracking wrists and breaking ribs and so forth. Not if they are gay, but if they are perceived to be gay by their fathers. Then there is the issue with a pastor calling for concentration camps in the US. And of course we have the Westboro Baptist Church (yes I know that there is some debate of them even being Christian).

 

Oh and let's not forget that the guiding light behind all these anti-Shariah laws is a Hasidic Jew who feels that anyone who practices Islam should be arrested and sent to jail for 20 years. So you can see, hatred is not limited to any one group. In fact, I have felt far more welcome to be myself and just be happy since my reversion than I was in over 10 years of being a "good Christian".

 

Rape, incest, adultery all are similar crimes. I've suffered under all of them in my life. So do I have a negative view of them...yes. Christians, especially born-again Christians and Jews would also feel the same about them, at least the ones I know. (Unless it is them committing those crimes of course.)

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