Jump to content
Islamic Forum
atheism101

Breaking A Fast

Recommended Posts

If fasting is supposed to be a physical and spiritual abstinence from desire, why are there so many rules that are essentially irrelevant to abstinence such that if you break these rules, you have broken your fast? For example, medicine into ears or your nose, or according to some, even your eyes, can break your fast. Why are there so many rules concentrating on the superficial physical aspects of fasting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fasting in also a way of purification. Keeping foreign substances out of the body is important for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fasting in also a way of purification. Keeping foreign substances out of the body is important for that.

I'm not sure I understand why it is important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What don't you understand? You've never heard of keeping your body clean and purified?

 

To put a sports perspective on this (apologies to everyone) but the doping issues...medicines contain substances that are banned by many sports organizations. Do you not understand that they view it as something to prevent?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What don't you understand? You've never heard of keeping your body clean and purified?

Seems counter-intuitive to ban, say, brushing your teeth during fasting, if the purpose is to keep the body clean. As far as purification is concerned, I am failing to see why it is important. On a larger scale, perhaps, but on a smaller scale, something like putting medicine in your ear seems really trivial to fuss over.

To put a sports perspective on this (apologies to everyone) but the doping issues...medicines contain substances that are banned by many sports organizations. Do you not understand that they view it as something to prevent?

I'm not really aware of what kind of substances are banned by sports organizations other than obvious ones like steroids, in which case the problem is unfair advantages. Can you specify what kind of medicinal substances you are talking about and why they are prevented? I don't know enough about this topic to go one way or the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brushing your teeth isn't forbidden... you just need to make sure you rinse your mouth very well and make sure you don't swallow anything. Same with ritual purification (wudu), you have to put water in your mouth and nose, just don't allow it to go down your throat.

 

As for substances: There are certain cough syrups and pain medications that you can't consume, along with the steroids.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brushing your teeth isn't forbidden... you just need to make sure you rinse your mouth very well and make sure you don't swallow anything. Same with ritual purification (wudu), you have to put water in your mouth and nose, just don't allow it to go down your throat.

 

 

Some people do actually say it is forbidden, and at least my family in particular follows this. (Although I believe miswak is allowed). I know there aren't universal rules on things like this, but certainly there are rules as silly as that.

 

As for substances: There are certain cough syrups and pain medications that you can't consume, along with the steroids.

I'm still not sure what kind of cough syrups and pain medications are banned. Do they have some sort of performance enhancing ingredient of some sort? I really doubt the reason has anything to do with purification, which seems to have been the reason suggested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many pain medicines as well as cough syrups and diuretics and so forth contain steroids. That's why there are also NSAIDs, or Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (things like aspirin and ibuprofen). But many different athletes have found themselves caught and banned because of using a medicine or substance that contains banned ingredients without their knowledge.

 

As for the other, I've not actually seen anything that forbids brushing teeth or any of that. Can you provide documentational proof showing that please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many pain medicines as well as cough syrups and diuretics and so forth contain steroids. That's why there are also NSAIDs, or Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (things like aspirin and ibuprofen). But many different athletes have found themselves caught and banned because of using a medicine or substance that contains banned ingredients without their knowledge.

Okay, so steroids...I've failed to see the relevance to purification.

As for the other, I've not actually seen anything that forbids brushing teeth or any of that. Can you provide documentational proof showing that please?

Well official documentation is irrelevant to whether or not people believe it, and my family is an example of one that does (since some toothpaste is bound to be swallowed.) To me, this is less absurd than disallowing ear medicine. Here's a Yahoo Answers question, shown not as an authority, but a demonstration that some muslims do agree that you can't brush your teeth with toothpaste while fasting:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080924124739AAF6VBt

It seems really silly to me that you are pretending like this is something totally foreign fabricated by someone like me at the spot. At the very least, some muslims do not think brushing with toothpaste is allowed, which was the only premise of my argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:sl:

 

[at] Muslims

 

This is month of Ramdan. So, do not waste your time by arguing with some arrogant atheists. Ramadan is for the Muslims. And they will follow the rules just to show that they obey Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala) . We did not ask atheists here to show us whether the Islamic rulings (which Muslims should follow) look 'silly' to atheists or not. The Ramadan is valuable for the Muslims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:sl:

 

[at] Muslims

 

This is month of Ramdan. So, do not waste your time by arguing with some arrogant atheists. Ramadan is for the Muslims. And they will follow the rules just to show that they obey Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala) . We did not ask atheists here to show us whether the Islamic rulings (which Muslims should follow) look 'silly' to atheists or not. The Ramadan is valuable for the Muslims.

Discourage the Q&A! Thanks bud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what brother Saracen is reminding us is that Ramadan is for prayer and good deeds. We shouldn't waste our time on unimportant things, like to forums (with exception for answering concerns of those fasting). I'm sure there will be many glad to address your questions later in time, if you promise to listen to what is being said an not always contradict.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what brother Saracen is reminding us is that Ramadan is for prayer and good deeds. We shouldn't waste our time on unimportant things, like to forums (with exception for answering concerns of those fasting). I'm sure there will be many glad to address your questions later in time, if you promise to listen to what is being said an not always contradict.

No one is forcing anyone to respond. Everyone can respond in their own time. It is also not as if I can interrupt anyone. Everyone can type full responses and I respond to these full responses. If I disagree, I say I do. Why should I say I agree if I don't?

Regardless, Saracen's response was rude and it seems I have hit a soft spot of the Muslim community. Whenever Q&A is discouraged in this way, there is clearly something wrong. If you have nothing wrong with defending your position in this case, there should be no reason why this thread, and not the various others that I am actively posting in, should receive such hostility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one is forcing anyone to respond. Everyone can respond in their own time. It is also not as if I can interrupt anyone. Everyone can type full responses and I respond to these full responses. If I disagree, I say I do. Why should I say I agree if I don't?

Regardless, Saracen's response was rude and it seems I have hit a soft spot of the Muslim community. Whenever Q&A is discouraged in this way, there is clearly something wrong. If you have nothing wrong with defending your position in this case, there should be no reason why this thread, and not the various others that I am actively posting in, should receive such hostility.

 

Do not twist your and my words. You did not say that I just disagree, and I did not say that do not get involved in QA or anything like that. You said that there are many 'silly' rules like that in Islam. If forbidding someone from calling Islamic rulings (which are for Muslims) 'silly' makes it sound rude, then that's just the beginning. You have seen nothing of so called hostility. And your theory of hitting the soft spot is as ridiculous as twisting posts.

 

 

There is no problem with QA (my post actually contained the answer). But there are problems with useless arguments with some arrogant atheists who have very little respect for month of Ramadan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer about brushing teeth contained in the site provided by ParadiseLost is responsive.

 

In this respect, I would like to share a Hadith which is self explanatory

 

The Prophet (salah allahu ‘alayhi wa salam) said: “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, the smell coming out from the mouth of a fasting person is better in the sight of Allah than the smell of musk” [Al-Bukhari]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do not twist your and my words.

I did not.
You did not say that I just disagree, and I did not say that do not get involved in QA or anything like that. You said that there are many 'silly' rules like that in Islam.
My quote:
If I disagree, I say I do. Why should I say I agree if I don't?

was a response to:

if you promise to listen to what is being said an not always contradict.

I was explaining that I only say I disagree if I actually do. You must have misunderstood that part of my post.

If forbidding someone from calling Islamic rulings (which are for Muslims) 'silly' makes it sound rude, then that's just the beginning.

You have seen nothing of so called hostility. And your theory of hitting the soft spot is as ridiculous as twisting posts.

Here we go again with unnecessary hostility.

I haven't twisted anyone's posts. Your reaction is very childish, so my claim that I've hit a soft spot does seem pretty justified.

There is no problem with QA (my post actually contained the answer). But there are problems with useless arguments with some arrogant atheists who have very little respect for month of Ramadan.

I am sure that rude behavior to people who disagree with you is a good way to respect Ramadan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer about brushing teeth contained in the site provided by ParadiseLost is responsive.

 

In this respect, I would like to share a Hadith which is self explanatory

 

The Prophet (salah allahu ‘alayhi wa salam) said: “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, the smell coming out from the mouth of a fasting person is better in the sight of Allah than the smell of musk” [Al-Bukhari]

I was not disputing whether or not brushing teeth was a rule. I was simply responding to the retort made by Nightingale:

You've never heard of keeping your body clean and purified?

My response was that not brushing your teeth is not exactly keeping your body clean. Whether or not that in and of itself is a good thing is irrelevant to the context in which I was responding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not.

My quote:

 

was a response to:

 

I was explaining that I only say I disagree if I actually do. You must have misunderstood that part of my post.

 

Here we go again with unnecessary hostility.

I haven't twisted anyone's posts. Your reaction is very childish, so my claim that I've hit a soft spot does seem pretty justified.

 

I am sure that rude behavior to people who disagree with you is a good way to respect Ramadan.

 

 

Someone who wants to know the truth can go to this post: http://www.gawaher.c...t/#entry1263280

 

And see how atheism101 is lying now. He did say 'there are rules as silly as that' instead of 'I disagree' or something similar.

 

I don't have much to say after this lie because it will become 'rude' ....as you have seen...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone who wants to know the truth can go to this post: http://www.gawaher.c...t/#entry1263280

 

And see how atheism101 is lying now. He did say 'there are rules as silly as that' instead of 'I disagree' or something similar.

 

I don't have much to say after this lie because it will become 'rude' ....as you have seen...

Clearly there seems to be some sort of communication barrier. I did not deny calling anything silly. I said that if I say I disagree, I will say I do - this was as a response to the claim that I only contradict. Nowhere does that imply that I did not call anything silly. I called the rule silly, and I'll call it silly again. You misinterpreted what I was referring to when I said I will say I disagree, and thought I was saying that I will *only* say that I disagree, when in fact I was only saying that I do not disagree for the sake of disagreeing - something completely irrelevant to anything in the post other than that one comment which I was responding to. I attempted to correct your misunderstanding, but clearly that has caused even more misunderstanding. Your posts were impolite in that you purposely used condescending language to refer to me when such a response had not been provoked. Instead of accepting that you were in fact rude, which I am sure you know you were, you increased your hostility. Your ego is clearly involved here, because instead of heeding your own advice, you keep coming back for more.

The original topic of the thread (from which we've clearly digressed) was a request to explain rules which focus on superficial things - such as not being able to brush your teeth due to the possibility that toothpaste will be swallowed - when really fasting should be about more profound things. I have no qualms with fasting. In fact, I find the idea fascinating. What I do not find appealing is these superficial details.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly there seems to be some sort of communication barrier. I did not deny calling anything silly. I said that if I say I disagree, I will say I do - this was as a response to the claim that I only contradict. Nowhere does that imply that I did not call anything silly. I called the rule silly, and I'll call it silly again. You misinterpreted what I was referring to when I said I will say I disagree, and thought I was saying that I will *only* say that I disagree, when in fact I was only saying that I do not disagree for the sake of disagreeing - something completely irrelevant to anything in the post other than that one comment which I was responding to. I attempted to correct your misunderstanding, but clearly that has caused even more misunderstanding. Your posts were impolite in that you purposely used condescending language to refer to me when such a response had not been provoked. Instead of accepting that you were in fact rude, which I am sure you know you were, you increased your hostility

 

Nowhere did I use condescending language. It's rather you who have called and are still calling the Islamic rulings, which are for Muslims, 'silly' and showing that you have not learned to behave politely in an Islamic Forum. And I do not and I am not bound to subscribe to your own version of morality where responding to attacks on Muslim rulings becomes 'impolite'. Instead of agreeing that you were and are in fact behaving arrogantly, you are now trying to teach others your 'moral' lesson even though you started the attack, and I just responded to it.

 

 

Your ego is clearly involved here, because instead of heeding your own advice, you keep coming back for more.

 

That's clearly your case because nowhere did I advise anyone that they can not or should not respond to the attacks on Islamic rulings. If you can not follow the rules of an Islamic forum, what's the point in coming back to the forum to attack Islamic rulings, which are clearly for Muslims not for atheists?

 

And, no need to create more drama. Back to the topic..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry for the late reply. I was having computer issues.

Nowhere did I use condescending language. It's rather you who have called and are still calling the Islamic rulings, which are for Muslims, 'silly' and showing that you have not learned to behave politely in an Islamic Forum. And I do not and I am not bound to subscribe to your own version of morality where responding to attacks on Muslim rulings becomes 'impolite'. Instead of agreeing that you were and are in fact behaving arrogantly, you are now trying to teach others your 'moral' lesson even though you started the attack, and I just responded to it.

Moral lessons? I don't know what you are talking about. Also, I would like to make clear that I am not attacking Islam. I was attacking superficial aspects of fasting, which may or may not be part of Islam. For example, I think not being able to brush your teeth during fasting is a silly little detail, and clearly some Muslims on this forum did not think it is part of Islam (I'm not one to decide if it is). What would you say to a Muslim who thought that a superficial rule was silly? Would that Muslim be attacking Islam, or trying to tap into a deeper meaning? I think fasting is fascinating (similarly, I think the idea behind Lent is also fascinating). What takes away from that, for me, is these superficial rules. They would not seem superficial if someone could describe why they are useful - which is essentially what I had intended to incite with this topic.

 

 

That's clearly your case because nowhere did I advise anyone that they can not or should not respond to the attacks on Islamic rulings. If you can not follow the rules of an Islamic forum, what's the point in coming back to the forum to attack Islamic rulings, which are clearly for Muslims not for atheists?

 

And, no need to create more drama. Back to the topic..

Your first post advised people to stop wasting time arguing with arrogant atheists. It was your advice, not mine. So I was simply pointing out that you did not follow your own advice.

I still don't understand what you are so bitter about. From your very first post you have been bitter about the entire topic. I haven't been the cause for any drama, you have. I'm sure any unbiased viewer would agree. However, I will apologize in the case that I offended anyone during our scuffle. I simply did not appreciate you trying to end conversation, and perhaps both of us got carried away in our little fight.

 

I'd love to bring the thread back on topic, if anyone is still interested in responding. Should much attention be given to minor rules, such as, say, not putting medicine in your ear? From my point of view, fasting should hold a much deeper meaning than just trying to keep stuff from entering your body or something similar. I like the idea of being able to restrain from desires everyday (and I'm sure most Muslims will agree that this would imply light sahri and iftar rather than filling yourself so that you can easily last the day). Why would me using ear medicine actually affect that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a little long, but it might be of use to you. There is at one point a line that talks about people who are worried about fasting, and it says something along the lines of "who cares if a few drops of water get in your ear, who drinks through their ears?". (I don't know exactly where, it just came to mind, I had watched it without this subject in mind). This leads me to believe that those who are extremely worried about medicines in the ear are leaning towards the 'keeping foreign substances out of the body' fasting versus the 'no liquids can enter my body'. If differentiation makes sense?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a little long, but it might be of use to you. There is at one point a line that talks about people who are worried about fasting, and it says something along the lines of "who cares if a few drops of water get in your ear, who drinks through their ears?". (I don't know exactly where, it just came to mind, I had watched it without this subject in mind). This leads me to believe that those who are extremely worried about medicines in the ear are leaning towards the 'keeping foreign substances out of the body' fasting versus the 'no liquids can enter my body'. If differentiation makes sense?

I haven't decided if I'll watch this whole lecture or not. Regardless, can you explain the difference between "keeping foreign substances out of the body" and "no liquids can enter my body"? I mean, I suppose "foreign substances" includes solids, but I don't see why this is relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should much attention be given to minor rules, such as, say, not putting medicine in your ear? From my point of view, fasting should hold a much deeper meaning than just trying to keep stuff from entering your body or something similar. I like the idea of being able to restrain from desires everyday (and I'm sure most Muslims will agree that this would imply light sahri and iftar rather than filling yourself so that you can easily last the day). Why would me using ear medicine actually affect that?

There are differences of opinions with regards to eyedrops and eardrops. However, in my opinion I suppose for some people they would prefer to not risk doing something they are not sure about because that is the case for some people. And I don't see any harm in people doing this because the prophet advised us if we were not sure about something to refrain from doing it. (It would be great if someone remembers where this hadith is located as I can't remember which book it is in but I will keep searching). Of course there are those who believe it does not break the fast for example: http://islamqa.info/en/ref/80208/ear%20drops

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=85119

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×