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Workingman, we can continue our discussions here, and if you can bring more christians here to discuss these topics with us it would be great.

 

I hope that you will be more logical than your were in previous debates. beacuse i am helpless against unlogical people :)

 

My question for you is,

 

Is "I and my father are one" evidence for you that jesus is God?

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Jesus was never crucfied nor killed on the cross.

 

Amazing debate about crucifiction between muslim and christian

 

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)

 

 

But yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out

 

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

 

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

 

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones??

Now the Christians have four options to choose from.

 

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

 

2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

 

3. Jesus (pbuh) is a lied that God forsook him.

 

4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

 

You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.

 

Can that person on the cross be jesus? NO

 

the problem is HOW CAN PROPHET OF GOD SAY

 

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

WHEN HE KNOW THAT GOD DONT FORSAKE PROPHETS AND BELIEVERS. EVEN TOUGH THEY GOT KILLED, BUT gOD HELP THEM TROUGH THE DEATH SO THEY DONT FEEL PAIN AND GOD LET THEM GO IN PARADISE.

 

you christians say that jesus knew that he would be killed, and sacrificed for the sins of mankind, so how can he then say something like this

 

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

imagine this:

 

Imagine you are football player, and the Boss of that football team says to you, you are our most valuable player, we need to sell you to get some money to save the club so it does not get bancrupt. I will sell you to best team in the world, Barcelona, you agree with that, beacuse you will play in biggest team in the world. You say to him, ok, sell me immidiatelly, and when that day comes, when the Boss sell you , you ask your boss

 

"My Boss, my Boss, why have you forsaken me?"

biggrin.gif

 

do you realise why jesus could not say something like this. it is not logical at all. but who said something like that on the cross, best explanations comes from gospel of barnabas wich you christian think is forgery.

 

but look now how stuff look more logical:

 

217: Judas was Crucified

 

....So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world....

 

Gospel of Barnabas

http://barnabas.net/chapters/265-217...crucified.html

 

Judas was punished by God, God transformed Judas to look like jesus beacuse he betrayed jesus. SO God pnished him and soldiers crucified Judas instead of jesus.

 

 

216: Judas Transformed

 

Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'

 

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.

 

http://barnabas.net/chapters/264-216...ansformed.html

 

Evidence that jesus never ressurected nor got killed from bible itself, this is just little bit, and there is a lot.

Ressurected body from the dead get spiritualised says jesus according to bible:

In (Luke 20: 34-36): "And answering said unto them: 'The children of the world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and then resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection’

But look here

Read Luke 24:36-41: “And as they (the

disciples) thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them,

and saith unto them, “Peace be unto you”. (Exactly as a Muslim

greets) But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that

they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, “Why are ye

troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my

hands and my feet, that it is I myself, handle me and see, for a

spirit hath no flesh and bones as ye see me have.” And when

he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And

while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto

them, “Have ye here any meat?” And they gave him a piece of

broiled fish, and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat

before them.” Living people eat food, not dead people or

resurrected ones, as Jesus stated in Luke

 

as we can see here, jesus was not spirit as ressurected bodies from the dead are.

That is why jesus was never on that cross nor was he ever killed.

God talks about so called crusifixion of Jesus in quran:

 

4:157 And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!" They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

 

158 God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise.

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God talks about so called crusifixion of Jesus in quran:

 

4:157 And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!" They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

 

but it appeared to them as if they had>>>>>>>>HOW???????

 

 

216: Judas Transformed

 

Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'

 

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.

 

http://barnabas.net/....ansformed.html

 

Judas was crucified instead of Jesus, he was transformed to look like jesus, to be killed on the cross, beacuse he betrayed Jesus.Punishment from God for judas and he saved jesus, as Bible also claim.

 

Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, Hebrews, and James. Then, how could he still die on the cross? (Luke 22:43): "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." It means that an angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless. (Hebrews 5:7): "Who in the days of his flesh, when he [Jesus] had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

Jesus' prayers were "heard," which means that they were answered in a positive way by God. (James 5:16): "... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Jesus himself said (Matthew 7:7-10): "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you; For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth, and to him who knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?" If all of Jesus' prayers were accepted by God, including his prayer not to die on the cross, how could he still die on the cross then?

 

Mistery solved :cool:

 

i will end this with this funny video about jesus on the cross

 

You christians have totally missunderstood your whole bible, that is why God call christian in quran as deluded people, that is why he sent Quran to guide you to the right path, path of Jesus Christ.

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even though christian think that Gospel of Barnabas is forgery, i dont hink so, i have read it twice...gospel of barnabas is more logical than standard christian bible. gospel of barnabs is muc more sense than this bible wich we have today.

 

i simply dont accept opinion of christian scholars beacuse they corrupt bible wich we have today, so how can we trust such people

look here how they corrupted bible

 

How many version of the bible are out there, corruption of christian scholar

 

i will show you how barnabas writes about what really happened with jesus in his last days of earth, how judas was transformed

 

copied from

http://www.barnabas.net

 

214: Judas Betrays

 

Having gone forth from the house, Jesus retired into the garden to pray, according as his custom was to pray, bowing his knees an hundred times and prostrating himself upon his face. Judas, accordingly, knowing the place where Jesus was with his disciples, went to the high priest, and said: "If you will give me what was promised, this night will I give into your hand Jesus whom you seek; for he is alone with eleven companions." The high priest answered: "How much do you seek?" Judas said, "Thirty pieces of gold."

Then straightway the high priest counted to him the money, and sent a Pharisee to the governor to fetch soldiers, and to Herod, and they gave a legion of them, because they feared the people; wherefore they took their arms, and with torches and lanterns upon staves went out of Jerusalem.

 

215: Divine Rescue of Jesus

 

When the soldiers with Judas drew near to the place where Jesus was, Jesus heard the approach of many people, wherefore in fear he withdrew into the house. And the eleven were sleeping. Then God, seeing the danger of his servant, commanded Gabriel;, Michael;, Rafael;, and Uriel, his ministers, to take Jesus out of the world. The holy angels came and took Jesus out by the window that looks toward the South;. They bare him and placed him in the third heaven in the company of angels blessing God for evermore.

 

216: Judas Transformed

 

Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil

 

217: Judas was Crucified

 

The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'

Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.

When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.

As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of israel that he would tell him the truth.

Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?

As God lives,' you shall not escape it!' And having said this he commanded his servants to smite him with buffetings and kicks, so that his understanding might come back into his head. The derision which he then suffered at the hands of the high priest's servants is past belief. For they zealously devised new inventions to give pleasure to the council. So they attired him as a juggler, and so treated him with hands and feet that it would have moved the very Canaanites to compassion if they had beheld that sight. But the chief priests and Pharisees and elders of the people had their hearts so exasperated against Jesus that, believing Judas to be really Jesus, they took delight in seeing him so treated.

Afterwards they led him bound to the governor, who secretly loved Jesus. Whereupon he, thinking that Judas was Jesus, made him enter into his chamber, and spoke to him, asking him for what cause the chief priests and the people had given him into his hands. Judas answered: 'If I tell you the truth, you will not believe me; for perhaps you are deceived as the (chief) priests and the Pharisees are deceived.'

The governor answered (thinking that he wished to speak concerning the Law): 'Now know you not that I am not a Jew? but the (chief) priests and the elders of your people have given you into my hand; wherefore tell us the truth, wherefore I may do what is just. For I have power to set you free and to put you to death.' Judas answered: 'Sir, believe me, if you put me to death, you shall do a great wrong, for you shall slay an innocent person; seeing that I am Judas ;Iscariot, and not Jesus, who is a magician, and by his are has so transformed me.'

When he heard this the governor marvelled greatly, so that he sought to set him at liberty. The governor therefore went out, and smiling said: 'In the one case, at least, this man is not worthy of death, but rather of compassion.' 'This man says,' said the governor, 'that he is not Jesus, but a certain Judas who guided the soldiery to take Jesus, and he says that Jesus the Galilean has by his are magic so transformed him. Wherefore, if this be true, it were a great wrong to kill him, seeing that he were innocent. But if he is Jesus and denies that he is, assuredly he has lost his understanding, and it were impious to slay a madman.'

Then the chief priests and elders of the people, with the scribes and Pharisees, cried out with shouts, saying: 'He is Jesus of Nazareth;, for we know him; for if he were not the malefactor we would not have given him into your hands. Nor is he mad; but rather malignant, for with this device he seeks to escape from our hands, and the sedition that he would stir up if he should escape would be worse than the former.' Pilate (of such was the governor's name), in order to rid himself of such a case, said: 'He is a Galilean, and Herod is king of Galilee: wherefore it pertains not to me to judge such a case, so take you him to Herod.'

Accordingly they led Judas to Herod, who of a long time had desired that Jesus should go to his house. But Jesus had never been willing to go to his house, because Herod was a Gentile, and adored the false and lying gods, living after the manner of the unclean Gentiles. Now when Judas had been led thither, Herod asked him of many things, to which Judas gave answers not to the purpose, denying that he was Jesus. Then Herod mocked him, with all his court, and caused him to be clad in white as the fools are clad;, and sent him back to Pilate, saying to him, 'Do not fail in justice to the people of israel!' * And this Herod wrote, because the chief priests and scribes and the Pharisees had given him a good quantity of money. The governor having heard that this was so from a servant of Herod, in order that he also might gain some money, feigned that he desired to set Judas at liberty.

Whereupon he caused him to be scourged by his slaves, who were paid by the scribes to slay him under the scourges. But God, who had decreed the issue, reserved Judas for the cross, in order that he might suffer that horrible death to which he had sold another. He did not suffer Judas to die under the scourges, notwithstanding that the soldiers scourged him so grievously that his body rained blood. Thereupon, in mockery they clad him in an old purple garment;, saying: 'It is fitting to our new king to clothe him and crown him': so they gathered thorns and made a crown, like those of gold and precious stones which kings wear on their heads. And this crown of thorns they placed upon Judas' head, putting in his hand a reed for sceptre;, and they made him sit in a high place.

And the soldiers came before him, bowing down in mockery, saluting him as King of the Jews. And they held out their hands to receive gifts, such as new kings are accustomed to give; and receiving nothing they smote Judas, saying: 'Now, how are you crowned, foolish king, if you will not pay your soldiers and servants?' *The chief priests with the scribes and Pharisees, seeing that Judas died not by the scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should set him at liberty, made a gift of money to the governor, who having received it gave Judas to the scribes and Pharisees as guilty to death. Whereupon they condemned two robbers with him to the death of the cross.

So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.

But they that stood firm in the doctrine of Jesus were so encompassed with sorrow, seeing him die who was entirely like to Jesus, that they remembered not what Jesus had said. And so in company with the mother of Jesus they went to Mount Calvary, and were not only present at the death of Judas, weeping continually, but by means of Nicodemus and Joseph of Abarimathia; they obtained from the governor the body of Judas to bury it. Whereupon, they took him down from the cross with such weeping as assuredly no one would believe, and buried him in the new sepulchre of Joseph; having wrapped him up in an hundred pounds of precious ointments.

 

218: Body of Judas Stolen

 

Then returned each man to his house. He who writes, with John and James his brother, went with the mother of Jesus; to Nazareth.

Those disciples who did not fear God went by night [and] stole the body of Judas and hid it, spreading a report that Jesus was risen again; whence great confusion arose. The high priest then commanded, under pain of anathema;, that no one should talk of Jesus of Nazareth;. And so there arose a great persecution, and many were stoned and many beaten, and many banished from the land, because they could not hold their peace on such a matter.

The news reached Nazareth how that Jesus, their fellow citizen, having died on the cross was risen again. Whereupon, he that writes; prayed the mother of Jesus; that she would be pleased to leave off weeping, because her son was risen again. Hearing this, the Virgin Mary, weeping, said: 'Let us go to Jerusalem to find my son. I shall die content when I have seen him.'

 

219: Jesus appeareth to his mother and his disciples

 

The Virgin returned to Jerusalem with him who writes, and James and John, on that day on which the decree of the high priest went forth. Whereupon, the Virgin, who feared God, albeit she knew the decree of the high priest to be unjust, commanded those who dwelt with her to forget her son. Then how each one was affected! God who discerns the heart of men knows that between grief at the death of Judas whom we believed to be Jesus our master, and the desire to see him risen again, we, with the mother of Jesus, were consumed.

So the angels that were guardians of Mary ascended to the third heaven;, where Jesus was in the company of angels, and recounted all to him. Wherefore Jesus prayed God that he would give him power to see his mother and his disciples. Then the merciful God commanded his four favourite angels, who are Michael, Gabriel, Rafael;, and Uriel, to bear Jesus into his mother's house, and there keep watch over him for three days continually, suffering him only to be seen by them that believed in his doctrine.

Jesus came, surrounded with splendour, to the room where abode Mary the Virgin with her two sisters, and Martha and Mary Magdalen, and Lazarus, and him who writes, and John and James and Peter. Whereupon, through fear they fell as dead. And Jesus lifted up his mother and the others from the ground, saying: 'Fear not, for I am Jesus; and weep not, for I am alive and not dead.' They remained every one for a long time beside himself at the presence of Jesus, for they altogether believed that Jesus was dead. Then the Virgin, weeping, said: 'Tell me, my son, wherefore God, having given you power to raise the dead. suffered you to die, to the shame of your kinsfolk and friends, and to the shame of your doctrine? For every one that loves you has been as dead.'

 

220: Jesus and the Four Angels

 

Jesus replied, embracing his mother: 'Believe me, mother, for truly I say to you that I have not been dead at all; for God has reserved me till near the end of the world.' And having said this he prayed the four angels that they would manifest themselves, and give testimony how the matter had passed.

Thereupon the angels manifested themselves like four shining suns, insomuch that through fear every one again fell down as dead. Then Jesus gave four linen cloths to the angels that they might cover themselves, in order that they might be seen and heard to speak by his mother and her companions. And having lifted up each one, he comforted them, saying: 'These are the ministers of God: Gabriel, who announces God's secrets; Michael, who fights against God's enemies; Rafael, who receives the souls of them that die; and Uriel, who will call every one to the judgment of God at the last day. Then the four angels narrated to the Virgin how God had sent for Jesus, and had transformed Judas, that he might suffer the punishment to which he had sold another.

Then said he who writes: 'O Master, is it lawful for me to question you now, as it was lawful for me when you dwelt with us?' Jesus answered: 'Ask what you please, Barnabas, and I will answer you.' Then said he who writes: 'O Master, seeing that God is merciful, wherefore has he so tormented us, making us to believe that you were dead? and your mother has so wept for you that she has been near to death; and you, who are an holy one of God, on you has God suffered to fall the calumny that you were slain amongst robbers ;on the Mount Calvary?'

Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell.

And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'

 

221: Jesus Chargeth Barnabas to Write

 

Jesus turned himself to him who writes, and said: "Barnabas, see that by all means you write my gospel concerning all that has happened through my dwelling in the world. And write in a similar manner that which has befallen Judas, in order that the faithful may be undeceived, and every one may believe the truth." Then answered he who writes: "I will do so, if God wills, O Master; but I do not know what happened to Judas, for I did not see it."

Jesus answered: "Here are John and Peter who saw everything, and they will tell you all that has passed." And then Jesus commanded us to call his faithful disciples [so] that they might see him. So James and John called together the seven disciples with Nicodemus and Joseph, and many others of the seventy-two, and they ate with Jesus.

The third day Jesus said: "Go to the Mount of Olives with my mother, for there I will ascend again to heaven, and you will see who shall bear me up." So they all went there except twenty-five of the seventy-two disciples, who for fear had fled to Damascus. And as they all stood in prayer, at midday Jesus came with a great multitude of angels who were praising God: and the splendour of his face made them greatly afraid and they fell with their faces to the ground. But Jesus lifted them up, comforting them, and saying: "Do not be afraid, I am your master."

And he reproved many who believed that he had died and risen again, saying: "Do you hold me and God for liars? I said to you that God has granted to me to live almost to the end of the world. Truly I say to you, I did not die; it was Judas the traitor. Beware, for Satan will make every effort to deceive you. Be my witnesses in israel, and throughout the world, of all things that you have heard and seen."

And having said this, he prayed God for the salvation of the faithful, and the conversion of sinners and [then], his prayer ended, he embraced his mother, saying: "Peace be to you, my mother. Rest in God who created you and me." And having said this, he turned to his disciples, saying: "May God's grace and mercy be with you." Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven.

 

222: Jesus Carried Up to Heaven

 

After Jesus had departed, the disciples scattered through the different parts of israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived. But we - as much as I have written - we preach to those that fear God, that they may be saved in the last day of God's Judgment. Amen.

END OF THE GOSPEL

 

 

look what jesus think about people think he is God

 

 

92: Hailed as God near Jordan

 

At this time we with Jesus, by the word of the holy angel, were gone to Mount Sinai. And there Jesus with his disciples kept the Forty days. When this was past, Jesus drew nigh to the river Jordan, to go to Jerusalem. And he was seen by one of them who believed Jesus to be God. Whereupon, with greatest gladness crying ever `Our God cometh!' having reached the city he moved the whole city saying: `Our God cometh, O Jerusalem; prepare thee to receive him!' And he testified that he had seen Jesus near to Jordan.

Then went out from the city every one, small and great, to see Jesus, insomuch that the city was left empty, for the women bare their children in their arms, and insomuch that they forget to take food to eat.

When they perceived this, the governor and the high-priest rode forth and sent a messenger to Herod, who in like manner rode forth to find Jesus, in order that the sedition of the people might be quieted. Whereupon for two days they sought him in the wilderness near to Jordan, and the third day they found him, near the hour of midday, when he with his disciples was purifying himself for prayer, according to the book of Moses.

Jesus marvelled greatly, seeing the multitude which covered the ground with people, and said to his disciples: `Perchance Satan hath raised sedition in Judaea. May it please God to take away from Satan the dominion which he hath over sinners.'

And when he had said this, the crowd drew nigh, and when they knew him they began to cry out: `Welcome to thee, O our God!' and they began to do him reverence, as unto God. Whereupon Jesus gave a great groan and said: `Get ye from before me, O madmen, for I fear lest the earth should open and devour me with you for your abominable words!' Whereupon the people were filled with terror and began to weep.

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every christian needs to see this, this man inspires man, i have never seen any person like deedat, logical and clear...amazing :yes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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BIGGEST MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN DEBATE OF THE CENTURY

 

GREATEST MISSIONARY OF MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN WORLD, IN A DEBATE ABOUT BIBLE

 

Is the Bible God's Word - Ahmed Deedat Vs. Jimmy Swaggart

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How many version of the bible are out there, corruption of christian scholar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ethk2twe4ik

 

 

That is the most ridiculous argument I have heard...

  • Ahmed was presenting the Protestant’s position which is an automatic void. They threw out 7 books from the bible; upon what authority did they do that? None, they have no apostolic succession. Protestants have only been around for the last 500 years or so, they have no roots. So this wishy washy business about the top 32 scholars backed up by 50 cooperating denominations means NOTHING because they have no authority.
  • Ahmed just refuted himself. If these scholars found “grave defects” in the translations due to variances compared with the most ancient manuscripts then the most ancient manuscripts remain authentic because without them they wouldn’t have been able to discover “grave defects”. Guess what we still have the most ancient manuscripts in our possession, hence no fabrication.

 

You’re wasting your time mate posting all this crap which is totally false propaganda...give it a rest!

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My question for you is,

Is "I and my father are one" evidence for you that jesus is God?

 

Thankyou again andalusi for your invite, before addressing both your question to me on the welcome thread and the one I've quoted, I'd like to point out that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a spiritual thing and not intellectual. Though we call all intellectually aruge each respective corners 'till the ends of our lives, for you to accept the Gospel will take a spiritual move rather than anything I can reveal to you on these forums.

With this in mind I believe it to be futile for me to try and argue my point as you will already be steadfast in your views! - and likewise me also, however as it's expidiante of me to do so, I'd like to cite John 1:14 which tells us that the Word became flesh; clearly what John's Gospel is saying is that God became flesh and blood, and walked this earth.

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That is the most ridiculous argument I have heard...

 

  • Ahmed was presenting the Protestant’s position which is an automatic void. They threw out 7 books from the bible; upon what authority did they do that? None, they have no apostolic succession. Protestants have only been around for the last 500 years or so, they have no roots. So this wishy washy business about the top 32 scholars backed up by 50 cooperating denominations means NOTHING because they have no authority.
  • Ahmed just refuted himself. If these scholars found “grave defects” in the translations due to variances compared with the most ancient manuscripts then the most ancient manuscripts remain authentic because without them they wouldn’t have been able to discover “grave defects”. Guess what we still have the most ancient manuscripts in our possession, hence no fabrication.

 

You’re wasting your time mate posting all this crap which is totally false propaganda...give it a rest!

 

 

threw out 7 books from the bible; upon what authority did they do that?

 

exactly

 

 

If these scholars found “grave defects” in the translations due to variances compared with the most ancient manuscripts then the most ancient manuscripts remain authentic because without them they wouldn’t have been able to discover “grave defects”. Guess what we still have the most ancient manuscripts in our possession, hence no fabrication

 

not in different translation but in King james version, and by the way how could they throw out verses from bible beacuse these scholar say that it is fabrication, like verse about trinity is fabrication. but let agree for the sake of argument that it is true, it should be all there then it creates serious logical problems and mistakes. this idea 1+1+1=1 trinity

 

what we still have the most ancient manuscripts in our possession, hence no fabrication

 

yes you have ancient manuscript but the fabrication is in translation , putting verses in King james version and those verses are not in ancient manuscripts

 

 

 

let me ask you something , do you believe that God is barber who shaves people's hair on heads and legs?

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Thankyou again andalusi for your invite, before addressing both your question to me on the welcome thread and the one I've quoted, I'd like to point out that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a spiritual thing and not intellectual. Though we call all intellectually aruge each respective corners 'till the ends of our lives, for you to accept the Gospel will take a spiritual move rather than anything I can reveal to you on these forums.

With this in mind I believe it to be futile for me to try and argue my point as you will already be steadfast in your views! - and likewise me also, however as it's expidiante of me to do so, I'd like to cite John 1:14 which tells us that the Word became flesh; clearly what John's Gospel is saying is that God became flesh and blood, and walked this earth.

 

 

I'd like to point out that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a spiritual thing and not intellectual.

 

we muslims believe also in Gospel of Jesus , if we did not believe in gospel of jesus we would not be muslims anymore. Buty the problem is thatt we dont have gospel of jesus, if you think that gospel of jesus is Gospel is according to Mark, Luke, John and Mathew then i dont know how you connect Gospel of jesus to Gospel of Mark or Luke??? this bible is gospel of these paerson not Gospel of jesus.

 

We want Gospel of jesus not mark, luke, john or whatever....

 

how can you say it is not intelectual ? it must be intelectuakl since Books are inspaired by God, can you imagine a book ispaired by God and you read in one verse David killed 1700 horsemen and in another verse it says David killed 7000 horsemen, how can book of God contain such errors if it was not written by men and that book can not be book of God. beacuse God does not make errors.

 

So yes book must be intelectual/logical without mistakes if you shall consider it to be book of God.

 

 

I'd like to cite John 1:14 which tells us that the Word became flesh;

 

yes , Quran say similarly that Jesus is word of God, how? Simply God said "Be" and then jesus was created by God in mother's womb.

 

 

clearly what John's Gospel is saying is that God became flesh and blood, and walked this earth.

 

 

not true beacuse the verse should not be trabslated "word was God", but word was divine

 

look

 

Mistranslation of the text:

In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).

 

Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as

"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."

 

The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read

 

"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'"

The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317

 

 

So yes it is more logical to translate it divine and not God, beacuse word was divine, beacuse God said "be" and jesus came into existence in mother's womb.

 

 

What was "The Word"?

 

"O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from him so believe in Allah and his messengers. Say not "Three," desist! It will be better for you, for Allah is one God. Glory be to him. Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):171

 

In the Qur'an we are told that when God Almighty wills something he merely says to it "Be" and it is.

"Verily! Our (Allah's) Word unto a thing when We intend it, is only that We say unto it "Be!" - and it is"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nahil(16):40 (please also read chapter 14)

 

This is the Islamic viewpoint of "The Word." "The Word" is literally God's utterance "Be." This is held out by the Bible where thirteen verses later in John 1:14 we read:

"And the Word was made flesh".

In the Qur'an, we read:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be.' And he was."

The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):59.

 

Regarding what is meant by Allah by "a spirit preceding from him" I shall simply let Allah Himself explain:

"And [remember] when Allah said to the angles: 'I shall create a human (Adam) from sounding clay, from altered mud. So when I have fashioned him and have breathed into him of my spirit, then fall down in prostration before him'"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Hijr(15):29

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not in different translation but in King james version, and by the way how could they throw out verses from bible beacuse these scholar say that it is fabrication, like verse about trinity is fabrication. but let agree for the sake of argument that it is true, it should be all there then it creates serious logical problems and mistakes. this idea 1+1+1=1 trinity

 

The King James version is a Protestant bible so they have illicitly thrown out 7 books of the Old Testament. Like I said these scholars do not have the authority, so their decisions to act is illicit.

 

The concept of Trinity is foreign to you because you like to understand things in a logical way. Since when is God logical? We both believe God created the universe out of nothing and Jesus’ mother was a virgin. These contradict the laws of the universe and the laws of nature. God created the laws of nature then He contradicted it. Does that sound logical to you? So your logical approach is the wrong approach because the laws of logic don’t apply to God.

 

 

yes you have ancient manuscript but the fabrication is in translation , putting verses in King james version and those verses are not in ancient manuscripts

 

Now your contradicting yourself just like Ahmed did. If you acknowledge the fact we have the ancient manuscripts and they are without error then we have the authentic bible in Greek. So this belief of yours that the bible has been fabricated is nonsense since you admit we have the unfabricated ancient manuscripts.

 

 

let me ask you something , do you believe that God is barber who shaves people's hair on heads and legs?

 

No I don’t. I believe God is pure spirit who has the power to assume for Himself a human nature while keeping His divine nature perfectly intact.

 

Now let me ask you a question, is your god too small to dwell in a human nature without losing the integrity of his divine nature?

Edited by CarlosTheJackal

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The King James version is a Protestant bible so they have illicitly thrown out 7 books of the Old Testament. Like I said these scholars do not have the authority, so their decisions to act is illicit.

 

The concept of Trinity is foreign to you because you like to understand things in a logical way. Since when is God logical? We both believe God created the universe out of nothing and Jesus’ mother was a virgin. These contradict the laws of the universe and the laws of nature. God created the laws of nature then He contradicted it. Does that sound logical to you? So your logical approach is the wrong approach because the laws of logic don’t apply to God.

 

 

 

 

Now your contradicting yourself just like Ahmed did. If you acknowledge the fact we have the ancient manuscripts and they are without error then we have the authentic bible in Greek. So this belief of yours that the bible has been fabricated is nonsense since you admit we have the unfabricated ancient manuscripts.

 

 

 

 

No I don’t. I believe God is pure spirit who has the power to assume for Himself a human nature while keeping His divine nature perfectly intact.

 

Now let me ask you a question, is your god too small to dwell in a human nature without losing the integrity of his divine nature?

 

 

The concept of Trinity is foreign to you because you like to understand things in a logical way

 

does this means that you accept illogical stuff from bible??? if something is not illogical i would not accept it even if it was from Quran, nobody shall make fool of me.

 

Since when is God logical?

 

unbelieve what i have just read here....so you accept christianity like blind faith, no logic, no evidence, just believe and dont ask why , how and such questions?? amazing you christians are, why do you let your scholar make fool of you man???

 

of course God is logical, beacuse he knows everything, can you imagine in book of God that 1+1+1=1 or that is says 1+1=5

 

God in quran is very logical, that is why i am muslim, beacuse he approachs me with logic and my mind accept that.

 

We both believe God created the universe out of nothing and Jesus’ mother was a virgin.

 

but scientist also say that God created universe out of nothing, and God say also in quran that he created universe out of nothing , watch this clip

 

 

 

These contradict the laws of the universe and the laws of nature. God created the laws of nature then He contradicted it. Does that sound logical to you? So your logical approach is the wrong approach because the laws of logic don’t apply to God.

 

yes, and i will tell you why, beacuse when Miracles occurs , nature laws breaks down, like that fire be cold, and dead be alive again and stuff like that....

why this happens with will of God when prophets of God come to their people to show them that they are really from God and not some fools, making jokes with them, miracles are evidence of their prophethood that is why miracles occured before.

 

 

 

Now your contradicting yourself just like Ahmed did. If you acknowledge the fact we have the ancient manuscripts and they are without error then we have the authentic bible in Greek. So this belief of yours that the bible has been fabricated is nonsense since you admit we have the unfabricated ancient manuscripts.

 

i dont say that ancient manuscripts are not fabricated

 

No I don’t. I believe God is pure spirit who has the power to assume for Himself a human nature while keeping His divine nature perfectly intact.

 

but your bible say he is barber, so why dont you believe your own bible?

 

 

19536-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-White-Man-With-Metrosexual-Tendencies-Wrapped-In-A-Towel-And-Seated-On-A-Stool-Shaving-His-Legs-With-Cream-And-A-Razor.jpg

 

Unbelievable what you can find in bible :D

God" of the "bible" is a barber...FUNNY Ahmed Deedat

 

<< Isaiah 7:20 >>

In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the River--the king of Assyria--to shave your head and the hair of your legs, and to take off your beards also.

 

how would you feel if i said to you, "can you please shave my legs"

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Lol – And you claim yourself to be a logical person, yeah whatever mate…

 

Do you know how I know you’re wrong?

 

This is what you said in another thread:

 

ok, if i made error about who wrote Acts

 

You admit that you’ve made a mistake in the past, I wonder how many other mistakes I know you’ve made that you’re unaware of. With all respect bro you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

Game over you lose.

Edited by CarlosTheJackal

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Lol – And you claim yourself to be a logical person, yeah whatever mate…

 

Do you know how I know you’re wrong?

 

This is what you said in another thread:

 

 

 

You admit that you’ve made a mistake in the past, I wonder how many other mistakes I know you’ve made that you’re unaware of. With all respect bro you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

Game over you lose.

 

This is what you said in another thread:

 

you see, i admit when i make errors, i just admit that, adn that was probably my only error on this forum.

 

 

You admit that you’ve made a mistake in the past, I wonder how many other mistakes I know you’ve made that you’re unaware of. With all respect bro you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

you still have not answer why you dont believe what bible say, that God is barber who shaves people's legs, why dont you believe you own bible man?

 

 

<< Isaiah 37:16 >>

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"O LORD of hosts, the God of israel, who is enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

 

<< 2 Samuel 22:11 >>

English Standard Version (©2001)

He(God) rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind.

 

What is Cherub?

 

A cherub (Heb. כְּרוּב, pl. כְּרוּבִים, eng. trans kərūv, pl. kərūvîm, dual kərūvāyim lat. cherub[us], pl cherubi[m], Assyrian ܟܪܘܒܐ) is a type of spiritual being mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and cited later on in the Christian biblical canons, usually associated with the presence of God. The plural can be written as cherubim, cherubimsKJV or cherubs. In modern English the word cherub is sometimes used for what are strictly putti, baby or toddler angels in art. This article is concerned with the original sense of the word.

 

this is cherub, baby girl angels

cherub+kiss.jpg

 

Can you imagine God riding these creatures , this is how bible make fun of God...that is why Bible cant be word of God.

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So Carlos, you are saying you are perfect and never made a mistake? By the tone of your reply to Brother andalusi, that's what you are implying, and that is how your words come across. Talk about hypocrisy.

 

You speak about the Catholics being the true source of Christians, and you are somewhat right, as the Catholic church basically took over in the early days, though it wasn't fully codified until after Nicaea, which is where the books of the Bible were put together (throwing out over 30 of them if I recall correctly). If you look at pre-Nicaea (which is the time of Peter, Paul and others) and then post-Nicaea, you see a vastly different church outlook.

 

I just find it funny that you admit andalusi made a mistake in the past so that throws out all his credibility. But wait a moment, humans are fallible creatures who make mistakes, so what does that do to you?!

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You speak about the Catholics being the true source of Christians, and you are somewhat right, as the Catholic church basically took over in the early days, though it wasn't fully codified until after Nicaea, which is where the books of the Bible were put together (throwing out over 30 of them if I recall correctly). If you look at pre-Nicaea (which is the time of Peter, Paul and others) and then post-Nicaea, you see a vastly different church outlook.

 

Uh oh another ignorant Muslim…get your history in order first before you write your post. The council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the bible canon dear lady. That was not the purpose of the council. Show me where in the council session anything to do with bible canon???

 

You have been clearly influenced by Protestants with their Nicaea propaganda.

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Uh oh another ignorant Muslim…get your history in order first before you write your post. The council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the bible canon dear lady. That was not the purpose of the council. Show me where in the council session anything to do with bible canon???

 

You have been clearly influenced by Protestants with their Nicaea propaganda.

 

Actually, that information comes from a Catholic professor of divinity I had when I was at Regis University (a Catholic university in the US). He was a visiting professor from Trinity College, Dublin. And I am not some ignorant Muslim girl, so you can leave the disdain behind.

 

Actually, the Council of Nicaea DID handle the Bible. They determined what they would consider heretical gospels and struck them as they compiled the bible. You need to read about Nicaea my friend, because you obviously don't know the history behind it.

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Really? Don’t just make claims show me references from the official church documents please showing dealings regarding the bible canon at the council of Nicaea, I guarantee you, you won’t find anything.

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Uh oh another ignorant Muslim…get your history in order first before you write your post. The council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the bible canon dear lady. That was not the purpose of the council. Show me where in the council session anything to do with bible canon???

 

You have been clearly influenced by Protestants with their Nicaea propaganda.

 

i wonder why you avoid answer my questions? are they not suitable for your belief??? dont you share belief as bible

 

if i did not have same belief what is written in quran i would not be a muslim anymore.

 

 

you are exactly what God told about you in quran, JUST EXACTLY 100%

 

God says in quran:

 

2:85.....So do you believe in some parts of the Scripture and not in others? The punishment for those of you who do this will be nothing but disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be condemned to the harshest torment: God is not unaware of what you do.

 

and of course you dont believe in somer part of the scripture due to fabrication of humans, God has already informed us about that in quran and bible itself has also informed us about its corruption.

 

Look this

 

God says in quran about corruption of the bible:

 

2:79 So woe to those who write the Scripture with their hands then Say: "This is from God," so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

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God speak about fabrication of Bible in Quran:

 

5:13 When they broke their covenant We condemned them, and hardened their hearts. They changed the Words from their places and have forgotten a portion of what they were reminded.

 

even bible confirms this about itself

 

<< Jeremiah 8:8 >>

New Living Translation (©2007)

"'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

 

that is why we can read about God being a barber in bible shaving people's legs and riding young baby girl angels (Cherubs)

beacuse people have fabricated Bible and put those nonsence ideas, even logic says "that cant be true, even if you are an christian"

 

 

flying_cherubs_4b2daadb2e957.jpg

 

Can you christians really think that God rode such baby girl angels like helicopter , come on man, dont be a joke here...

 

if you only read about belief about God in quran, you would think, how the '''' could i believe in biblical version of God.

 

God according to Islam, is none-seen God, all powerfull, all knowing, all hearing God, nobody can kill him, or come close to him to harm him in any way, he do what he wants and no one can judge him. He dont eat, he was never born, and will never die. he creates by saying word "be" and then it is.

For me Biblical version of God is a real comedy, if i read bible without reading quran or any other book, i would be an atheist immidiatelly. beacuse even your logic dont accept that God can be a barber shaving people's legs and riding young baby angel cherubs like helicopter.

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Actually, that information comes from a Catholic professor of divinity I had when I was at Regis University (a Catholic university in the US). He was a visiting professor from Trinity College, Dublin. And I am not some ignorant Muslim girl, so you can leave the disdain behind.

 

Actually, the Council of Nicaea DID handle the Bible. They determined what they would consider heretical gospels and struck them as they compiled the bible. You need to read about Nicaea my friend, because you obviously don't know the history behind it.

 

Really? Don’t just make claims show me references from the official church documents please showing dealings regarding the bible canon at the council of Nicaea, I guarantee you, you won’t find anything.

 

See that everybody? I asked Nightingale to present proper evidence rather than just making mere false statements, she could not. She continues to move on in ignorance. This isn’t the first time she does this…

 

A word of advice honey if you choose to argue, never make a statement without having references prepared to back yourself up.

 

I’m sick and tired of Muslims in here trying to disapprove Christianity, posting garbage about the Gospel or St Paul. Is it part of your faith to debunk Christians? Stick to your quran and leave us alone. I’ve had enough of this forum I’m outta here and I’m never coming back, I've spoken to Augustine he's agreed never to come back here again goodbye!

 

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

 

Take heed Muslims you've been warned.

Edited by CarlosTheJackal

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I’m sick and tired of Muslims in here trying to disapprove Christianity, posting garbage about the Gospel or St Paul. Is it part of your faith to debunk Christians? Stick to your quran and leave us alone. I’ve had enough of this forum I’m outta here and I’m never coming back, I've spoken to Augustine he's agreed never to come back here again goodbye!

 

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

 

Take heed Muslims you've been warned.

 

 

I’m sick and tired of Muslims in here trying to disapprove Christianity

 

no, you should not be, we are you to open your eyes man, christianity is not relgion of jesus, it is relgion created by paul , by abolishing laws wich jesus forbade to be abolished.

 

posting garbage about the Gospel or St Paul.

 

we know that you love Paul, beacuse he created your relgion, everytime i say Jesus said to you this, you christians answer to me, but Paul said this, Paul said that......then i wonder who are you really following jesus or paul???

 

Is it part of your faith to debunk Christians? Stick to your quran and leave us alone.

 

it is part of our faith to call you to worship only God , nobody else, not jesus who was only a prophet of God, not God, nor that you shall worship mary (wich you call mother of god).

 

God says to you chjristians in quran that you shall not exaggarate in your relgion and dont tell lies about God...saying that jesus is god is blasphemy, and for blasphemy you can be punished with hellfire after your that. do you want that?

 

 

I’ve had enough of this forum I’m outta here and I’m never coming back, I've spoken to Augustine he's agreed never to come back here again goodbye!

 

i know that you run away when someone ask you difficult questions, how could you be strong believer in your relgion if you cant answer my questions man? this is easy questions...

 

You see people, what happens when the truth hits the lies, lies are revealed and the true stand firmly.

 

if you cant answer bring me some christians who know their relgion, maybe they can help you......

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Actually, I was looking at some information from the Catholic Encyclopedia. You are right in that biblical canonization took a back seat at Nicaea, mostly so that they could force the trinity through (which was not a foregone conclusion until Constantine ordered it to be so).

 

However, I find it quite interesting that until the Council of Trent in 1546 (according to all Catholic scholars), the Bible was not formally set in stone with regards the books and makeup. It is also AFTER the Protestant Reformation. Besides, you completely overlook the Orthodox church, but then that doesn't surprise me as very few Catholics or Protestants even know anything about the Orthodox church.

 

If you wish to see for yourself, you can look at the Catholic Encyclopedia. Or is that not "churchy" enough for you?

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Workingman, we can continue our discussions here, and if you can bring more christians here to discuss these topics with us it would be great.

 

I hope that you will be more logical than your were in previous debates. beacuse i am helpless against unlogical people :)

 

My question for you is,

 

Is "I and my father are one" evidence for you that jesus is God?

 

Hello I am back as my wife is now home from the mayo for now. I see the thread took off while I was gone. I have read bits and pieces of it and will respond to stuff best I can and in time. Hopefuly I don't rehash some stuff.

 

As to your question that is one of the verses yes. I would like to set a ground rule for quoting scripture and a base. I request that scripture be quoted out of the Douay-Rheims Bible and not some protestant Bible as it is full of errors and a incomplete cannon. Also do not bother with protestant pastors or theologans they hold no bearing on me. I will not subscribe to their flawed private interpretation of the Bible. I am a Roman Catholic with Orthodox leanings. I stay RC for the fact that there is no EO Church near me.

 

Now for other verses where Jesus clames to be God are as followes St. Matthew 4:7, St Luke 4:12 this is where satan tempts Jesus. St. Matthew 5:21-44 these verses Jesus makes himself equal to God by saying you heard it said.....but I say to you..... Jesus is seting his law above God so if he is only a prophet who is he to set his law above God's law that he gave to the jews. St. John 6:38 is another example where Jesus said he came down from heaven. You can also parallel St. John 8:12 and 1John 1:5. These are but a few verses of many. Please take the time to look them up with a valid translation.

 

Deus benedicat

 

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.

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we muslims believe also in Gospel of Jesus , if we did not believe in gospel of jesus we would not be muslims anymore. Buty the problem is thatt we dont have gospel of jesus, if you think that gospel of jesus is Gospel is according to Mark, Luke, John and Mathew then i dont know how you connect Gospel of jesus to Gospel of Mark or Luke??? this bible is gospel of these paerson not Gospel of jesus.

We want Gospel of jesus not mark, luke, john or whatever....

 

It's obvious that the Koran and the Bible refer to different Jesus', as the two are certainly not the same. When I speak of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I am of course as a Christian refering to the Biblical account described throughout the old and new testaments.

 

 

 

how can you say it is not intelectual ? it must be intelectuakl since Books are inspaired by God, can you imagine a book ispaired by God and you read in one verse David killed 1700 horsemen and in another verse it says David killed 7000 horsemen, how can book of God contain such errors if it was not written by men and that book can not be book of God. beacuse God does not make errors.

 

As I stated, we can argue each others points on an interlectual basis until the day we die, however the Gospel is a spiritual matter, which is why I see debating such issues as 1700 or 7000 (google is both yours and mine freind!) is a waste of both our time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes , Quran say similarly that Jesus is word of God, how? Simply God said "Be" and then jesus was created by God in mother's womb.

not true beacuse the verse should not be trabslated "word was God", but word was divine

 

look

 

Mistranslation of the text:

In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).

 

Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as

"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."

 

The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read

 

"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'"

The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317

 

 

So yes it is more logical to translate it divine and not God, beacuse word was divine, beacuse God said "be" and jesus came into existence in mother's womb.

 

You seem to be agreeing that Jesus was divine? if this is the case then yes I agree with you.

I happen however to believe quite simply that the word was God as John 1:1 states, and all this makes sense when you read the Jewish reaction to Jesus' prolcamation regarding being the great I Am in John Chapter 8.

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