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what is poetical in mockering God????? that GOd ride chirubs(winged baby-girls), come on man this is mockring God, just compare Islamic description of God how above all this nonsence God is compared to biblical description, when He is depicted as barber who shaves hair on people legs, rides winged baby-girls, fights battles with human(Jacob) and loses, God who regrets and dont know stuff, God who cry, GOd who is humiliated and killed half naked on the cross, what kind of God is this.

 

IN Islamic description of God, you cant even come close to harm Him at all, not to talk about possiblity to harm him, and He can kill you/me in every possible and impossible way, just pick how you want to die or save you from death he can fullfill it

My friend, it appears you are taking verses out of context, ignoring the culture of the time and disregarding the intent of the writers of the bible.

 

How would you react if I interpreted the Quran with same level of ignorance?

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My friend, it appears you are taking verses out of context, ignoring the culture of the time and disregarding the intent of the writers of the bible.

 

How would you react if I interpreted the Quran with same level of ignorance?

 

show me how

 

 

How would you react if I interpreted the Quran with same level of ignorance?

 

i would give you proof why you are wrong, that is why i want evidence from you why i am wrong.

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You don't know the Bible or the History of IsIam if your didn't know Uthman burned all the Quran he could get hold of and that Hafsah's copy was destroyed.

 

show us evidence from Islam sources 

 

 

How did Allah who knows all things and the future not know that man is corrupt and will corrupt his word; why did he let them get so far as to do it? It just doesn't compute and it defies what I consider logic and all reason. You say that God didn't say He would protect His word, but Scripture says differently.

 

that is very good question wich is very easy to answer

 

Allah did not promised that he will protect Torah and Gospel (Bible) but he promised to protect QUran from corruption. Allah knew that he will send Quran to humankind as last message from him to humankind, and that people have to follow it. In every state you follow latest law not laws that came before last one. So God let people to corrupt his books to be evidence against them and it is easier for us muslim to propagate latest message quran if previous books are distorted and corrupted. imagine if previous books were untouched , there would be no point sending quran then if there is already correct relgion on the face of the earth. When people corrupt relgion then God send new books to correct them. 

 

If bible is without errors and quran came down from God then what is the point sending down quran if previous books are totally ok. More you corrupt more you can see how suprior Quran is to all relgious books on the face of the earth.

 

 

 You say that God didn't say He would protect His word, but Scripture says differently.

 

are Gods word same as the word of men? no, who wrote those scriptures?? men actually

 

even bible says that men wrote bible.

 

 

This is all out of Psalms. This is a Book Muhammad accepted fully.

 

not true

 

 

If I cannot trust the Scripture that came before Muhammad was born then I can trust no Scripture.

 

just look in those previous texts and see how many errors are in it, and if you like to believe in errors and lies, then continue to do that. now i will text your faith how much you really blieve in the bible

 

 

HOW MANY LEGS DO LOCUSTS HAVE? 4 OR 6

 

now we will see how much you believe in your own book. 

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Since the beginning and forever means before Abraham to date! This is all out of Psalms. Show where Muhammad didn't accept Psalms.

You said there would have been no need for the Quran?

 

we muslims and Muhammed accepted only original revelation from God in Torah, Gospel, and Psalms(Zaboor) , God has informed us that these books have been corrupted that is why we cant trust them unless we have orginal reference/orginal book of God/unchanged/uncorrupted (in this case Quran) so if those scriptures match with Quran we accept it, if not we dont.

 

you dont even need quran to see that Bible has been corrupted book, just look how much errors there is in the bible.

 

 

 

Christians accept the Quran as much as you do the Bible. Mormons say the Book of Mormon was the last message from the prophet Joseph Smith. I have to draw a line somewhere. Since God said he established all His word forever, I have to rule out what doesn't confirm it!

 

the problem with you is that you dont open your eyes and critically look upon books, if i saw errors and contradictions and illogical stuff in Quran i would reject it, beacuse that is a joke to think that allknowing God send books full with errors.

 

Bible is word of God, word of prophets, word of historians and pornography.

 

 

 

 Your locust question is silly. What does it have to do with our spirituality and relationship with God? 

 

it has, if bible is inspired by God then at least we can expect to be without errors, if it is inspried by God and we see a lot of errors, then how can we trust such book.

 

 

let see what your holy book says about simple stuff and cant write it properlly without making errors, and you still believe it.

 

Leviticus 11:20

"'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you, There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground.Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.

 

how many legs do you see in grasshoppers and locust, 6 or 4 like bible says??

_45422785_locust.jpg

 

so how can your trust a book who cant even manage to describe how many legs a locust insect have ???????????? so if it cant manage to describe these simple stuff how can our trust to describe even more complicating as God???

 

 

 

 

It is men reporting truth as they see it. Some or most of them were inspired by God. 

 

actually writers of the bible did not saw, dont you read you own book, Lucas informed us that he wrote bible by listening to stories of people. that is a big difference.

 

 

 

 

What is preserved is the central message of the gospel and the death and resurrection of Christ. Nothing can wipe that out. 

 

and what is the central message, tell us.

 

 

 

 

When Jesus cried out "Father why have you forsaken me" it was because Jesus took on our sin

 

 

but that belief is illogical and bible itself denies you, dont you know that

 

 

look for yourself

 

Deuteronomy 24:16

“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

as you can see bible clearly says everyone is responsible for his own sins, wich is logical and we muslims accept that. but your christian dont like this logica idea, you like to complicate your own religion, so you want that you rob the bank and i go to prison for you, that is your belief system. we muslim profit from your belief system very good, beacuse when logical people see this they leave this and come to Islam and see how logical this relgion Islam is, and simple, no complications.

 

 

 

As a result, when we receive Jesus as our Savior, we become the righteousness of Christ before God.

 

do you believe that Jesus is God, yes or No?

 

 

 

but you brought up Christ's death, and you asked how God could forsake His faithful servant. Now you know

 

no, i dont actually, beacuse it does not make any sense what you write here.

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The Bible is written by men inspired by God; 

 

does not matter if it is inspired by GOd when it is corrupted, it is invalid.

 

 

As far as the grasshopper, maybe the writer saw it has having two big legs, two small ones, and two limbs or arms, lol. This kind of stuff means nothing to me. The Bible is a history book that men have wrote. It doesn't mean that God agreed with all the men did recorded in there.

 

so if God is not statisfied what is in the bible why should you be, ooh man  :lol: you really have blind faith, just5 believe in everything, dont ask why, how, who, when...just believe it. :no:  thank God i am a muslim, if Islam was like this (blind faith, without reason and logic) i would leave it immidiatelly.

 

 

 

it is not logical for me to believe that God couldn't have preserved His word from the beginning. I believe that all Scripture inspired by God is perfectly in tact. All that was important as pertains to eternal salvation is perfect and without corruption. 

 

but i proved to you that it is not in tact, errors are everywhere, but keep believe in it like you used to do.

 

you have not answered my question, is Jesus God??? 

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Yes I believe everyone pays for there own sin. As far as Deuteronomy 24:16

 

“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin. I have no problem with this verse.

 

Jesus was not my biological father taking my sin. Jesus has taken my sin because He is the son of God. Every one who rejects God's gift will pay for their own sin not their father or brother's sin etc, etc....

 

 

Jesus has taken my sin because He is the son of God. 

 

but you said everyone is responsible of his own sin, so how can then jesus take your sin if you are responsible fot, why are you so illogical now, it does not make any sense at all???

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 Because the only sin I can have is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and rejecting Christ as Savior of my life. If I commit those sins, I will pay for it.

If we go out to dinner and I offer to pay for you and you refuse, then you must pay for your own. If you let me pay for it, you don't have to. It is simple logic. Jesus is not my parent taking on my sin; He is the word of God incarnated. My parents will pay for their own sin against God (AND THEY CANNOT PAY FOR MINE) if they don't repent and accept Jesus as savior; the same goes for me. Even if they wanted to pay for them they couldn't because they have sin of their own. A drowning person cannot save a drowning person.

 

i dont know but it seems to me that you are afraid of something when i ask you question, is it hard to answer simple question

 

IS JESUS GOD, YES OR NO?

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why, there could be some intrest in using it even though it is corrupted, it could be money, land (to claim israel to be only for them), or other stuff wich could also be. but i am sure many dont even know that bible is corrupted.

 

 

answer is here

Corruption in Bible or Quran, Ahmed Deedat Answers

 

 

 

no no and no, bible is corrupt beacuse bible itself claim that, and gives evidence for that. and of course God says in the quran that bible is corrupted by people.

 

 

 

if i have no evidence of contradictions in bible i could not claim then that bible is corrupted if i have no evidence for that, but i presented clearly to you errors in bible.

 

is this not corruption, you take out verses from bible and leave empty space where they were before??? that is exactly what they did with revised bible from 1952 , they remove some verses claimed that they were fabrication, and then they put them back in 70 ties, why beacuse money, they could not sell those bible without crucial verses in it.

 

where does bible say that moses wrote deutronomy??? nowhere

 

so how can you believe stuff wich they told you without evidence, and i post to you obvious evidence and you dont want to believe me.

Ok so lets say it is as you claim. The scribes keep using te scriptures so they can claim the Holy Land. Then why, in the name of all that is Holy, do they not just delete that verse of Jerehmiah?

 

And anyway you still can't give me something else indicting the scribes who corrupted scripture.

 

As I have said before I can't watch videos from this site. I will watch it as soon as possible.

 

Can you give me a source on your 1900s corruption claims?

 

Where did I say that Moses wrote Deuteronomy? I said it was dictated by him to a scribe. As the scriptures say here in the first two paragraphs of Deuteronomy.

 

Introduction.1* These are the words that Moses spoke to all israel beyond the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah, opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth, and Dizahab.2It is a journey of eleven days from Horeb* to Kadesh-barnea by way of the highlands of Seir.

 

3In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the israelites according to all that the LORD had commanded him to speak to them, after he had defeated Sihon, king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon,a and Og, king of Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei.Beyond the Jordan, in the land of Moab, Moses undertook to explain this law:

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first this bible what you have today was not like this 2000 years ago, these books were separated and not one collections of the books.

Actually I can't remember where but I remember reading about a complete scroll of the Torah being in the Temple in Jesus' time.

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no you dont, if you had you would not make so many contradictions in bible, i dont buy that exuse at all.

 

 

Uthman did not burn orginal copies, dont lie here. and that Hafsah copy was also destroyed is also a lie.

 

why destruction of doubtful qurans, maybe you should watch the video and then you would know.

 

answer at 7:27 min

 

 

 

what is poetical in mockering God????? that GOd ride chirubs(winged baby-girls), come on man this is mockring God, just compare Islamic description of God how above all this nonsence God is compared to biblical description, when He is depicted as barber who shaves hair on people legs, rides winged baby-girls, fights battles with human(Jacob) and loses, God who regrets and dont know stuff, God who cry, GOd who is humiliated and killed half naked on the cross, what kind of God is this.

 

IN Islamic description of God, you cant even come close to harm Him at all, not to talk about possiblity to harm him, and He can kill you/me in every possible and impossible way, just pick how you want to die or save you from death he can fullfill it.

First off Chirubs are boys. Second they are from 15th-16th century art not the bible. Third the battle with Jacob was intentionally lost. At the end God injured his foot to show his power. From what I know it was a sign to Jacob's people. Third the Barber comment is poetic describing Him humiliating israel. Fourth your other comments show the difference between Islamic and Christian views of God. You see God as a master. We see Him as a father. And like a father he loves His children. And like a good father he will do anything for them because he loves them. He is willing to die and be so humbled, so that we, once fallen, may return to Him.

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IS JESUS GOD, YES OR NO?

Yes, He is. Edited by Heavens Fire

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And anyway you still can't give me something else indicting the scribes who corrupted scripture. 

 

As I have said before I can't watch videos from this site. I will watch it as soon as possible. 

 

Can you give me a source on your 1900s corruption claims? 

 

watch the video i posted , you can see it on youtube how your christian scholar corrupted bible during 1900 century.

 

 

 

Where did I say that Moses wrote Deuteronomy? I said it was dictated by him to a scribe. 

 

where does it say that Moses dictated to his scribe? 

 

 

 

 

First off Chirubs are boys. Second they are from 15th-16th century art not the bible.

 

not true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherub

 

"A cherub (Hebrew כְּרוּב, pl. כְּרוּבִיםEnglish trans kərūv, pl. kərūvîm, dual kərūvāyim Latin cherub[us], pl cherubi[m]Syriac ܟܪܘܒܐ) is a type of spiritual being mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and cited later on in the Christian biblical canons,... In modern English the word cherub is sometimes used for what are strictly putti — baby or toddler angels in art."

 

Isaiah 37:16 

O Jehovah of hosts, the God of israel, that sittest above the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

 

 

penny_plain_victorian_scraps_cherub_0001

are these boys or girls?????

 

 

 

 

 

 

Third the battle with Jacob was intentionally lost. At the end God injured his foot to show his power. From what I know it was a sign to Jacob's people. Third the Barber comment is poetic describing Him humiliating israel. Fourth your other comments show the difference between Islamic and Christian views of God.

 

so your belief says that God is so weak that even man can beat HIm  :no: how can you belief this man???

 

 

You see God as a master. We see Him as a father. And like a father he loves His children. And like a good father he will do anything for them because he loves them. He is willing to die and be so humbled, so that we, once fallen, may return to Him. 

 

but according to Islam God is more loving to humans than his parents(father and mother)

 

GOd command humans to not kill their own children in the quran, do you know that pagan arabs before Islam killed their daughters, buried them alive. so this title Father is not appopriate to God.

 

 

 

 

Yes, He is. 

 

 

but bible says he is not

 

 

Bible

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact. How can you then believe he is GOd when your bible denies you???

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watch the video i posted , you can see it on youtube how your christian scholar corrupted bible during 1900 century.

 

 

 

where does it say that Moses dictated to his scribe?

 

 

 

 

not true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherub

 

"A cherub (Hebrewכְּרוּב, pl. כְּרוּבִים, English trans kərūv, pl. kərūvîm, dual kərūvāyimLatincherub[us], pl cherubi[m], Syriacܟܪܘܒܐ) is a type of spiritual being mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and cited later on in the Christian biblical canons,... In modern English the word cherub is sometimes used for what are strictly putti — baby or toddler angels in art."

 

Isaiah 37:16

O Jehovah of hosts, the God of israel, that sittest above the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

 

 

penny_plain_victorian_scraps_cherub_0001

are these boys or girls?????

 

 

 

 

 

so your belief says that God is so weak that even man can beat HIm :no: how can you belief this man???

 

 

but according to Islam God is more loving to humans than his parents(father and mother)

 

GOd command humans to not kill their own children in the quran, do you know that pagan arabs before Islam killed their daughters, buried them alive. so this title Father is not appopriate to God.

 

 

 

 

 

but bible says he is not

 

 

Bible

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact. How can you then believe he is GOd when your bible denies you???

 

I gave you the verse already. Here it is again.

 

Introduction.1* These are the words that Moses spoke to all israel beyond the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah, opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth, and Dizahab.2It is a journey of eleven days from Horeb* to Kadesh-barnea by way of the highlands of Seir.

 

3In the fortieth year,* on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the israelites according to all that the LORD had commanded him to speak to them,4after he had defeated Sihon, king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon,a and Og, king of Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei.5Beyond the Jordan, in the land of Moab, Moses undertook to explain this law:

 

Obviously, Moses gave a long oral explanation of the Law, ha it written down and died.

 

Sorry I think I phrased that poorly. What I meant is that Cherubs in original Hebrew and early Christian thought were actually warrior angels.

 

As Wikipedia says:

 

Cherubim have four faces: one of each a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle. They have four conjoined wings covered with eyes, a lion's body figure, and they have ox's feet. Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:24)[3] and the throne of God (Ezekiel 28:14-16).[4]

 

The cherubim are mentioned in Genesis 3:24;[3] Exodus 25:17-22; 2 Chronicles 3:7-14; Ezekiel 10:12–14,[5] 28:14-16;[4] 1 Kings 6:23–28;[6] and Revelation 4:6-8.

 

They are male because Satan was a fallen Cherub.

 

No, he wasn't defeated, as I said," He allowed it"

 

 

As does Christianity.

 

I don't see how pagan brutality makes God not a Father.

 

As I have said several times, your only picking certain verses.

 

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

 

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

 

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

 

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

 

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

 

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

 

However in the end these verses, yours or mine, don't prove anything. For proof we must look to the early Christians, the ones who knew the apostles, and see how they interpreted scripture.

 

Here is their verdict.

 

 

 

Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

 

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

 

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

 

 

 

Aristides

"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

 

 

 

Tatian the Syrian

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

 

 

 

Melito of Sardis

"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

 

 

 

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

 

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).

 

 

 

Clement of Alexandria

"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

 

"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).

 

 

 

Tertullian

"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

 

"That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

 

 

 

Origen

"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

 

 

 

Hippolytus

"Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

 

 

 

Hippolytus of Rome

"For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34).

 

 

 

Novatian

"If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God" (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

 

 

 

Cyprian of Carthage

"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).

 

 

 

Gregory the Wonderworker

"There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

 

 

 

Arnobius

"‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).

 

 

 

Lactantius

"He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).

 

"We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [but w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29).

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watch the video i posted , you can see it on youtube how your christian scholar corrupted bible during 1900 century.

 

 

 

where does it say that Moses dictated to his scribe?

 

 

 

 

not true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherub

 

"A cherub (Hebrewכְּרוּב, pl. כְּרוּבִים, English trans kərūv, pl. kərūvîm, dual kərūvāyimLatincherub[us], pl cherubi[m], Syriacܟܪܘܒܐ) is a type of spiritual being mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and cited later on in the Christian biblical canons,... In modern English the word cherub is sometimes used for what are strictly putti — baby or toddler angels in art."

 

Isaiah 37:16

O Jehovah of hosts, the God of israel, that sittest above the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

 

 

penny_plain_victorian_scraps_cherub_0001

are these boys or girls?????

 

 

 

 

 

so your belief says that God is so weak that even man can beat HIm :no: how can you belief this man???

 

 

but according to Islam God is more loving to humans than his parents(father and mother)

 

GOd command humans to not kill their own children in the quran, do you know that pagan arabs before Islam killed their daughters, buried them alive. so this title Father is not appopriate to God.

 

 

 

 

 

but bible says he is not

 

 

Bible

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact. How can you then believe he is GOd when your bible denies you???

 

I gave you the verse already. Here it is again.

 

Introduction.1* These are the words that Moses spoke to all israel beyond the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah, opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth, and Dizahab.2It is a journey of eleven days from Horeb* to Kadesh-barnea by way of the highlands of Seir.

 

3In the fortieth year,* on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the israelites according to all that the LORD had commanded him to speak to them,4after he had defeated Sihon, king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon,a and Og, king of Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei.5Beyond the Jordan, in the land of Moab, Moses undertook to explain this law:

 

Obviously, Moses gave a long oral explanation of the Law, ha it written down and died.

 

Sorry I think I phrased that poorly. What I meant is that Cherubs in original Hebrew and early Christian thought were actually warrior angels.

 

As Wikipedia says:

 

Cherubim have four faces: one of each a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle. They have four conjoined wings covered with eyes, a lion's body figure, and they have ox's feet. Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:24)[3] and the throne of God (Ezekiel 28:14-16).[4]

 

The cherubim are mentioned in Genesis 3:24;[3] Exodus 25:17-22; 2 Chronicles 3:7-14; Ezekiel 10:12–14,[5] 28:14-16;[4] 1 Kings 6:23–28;[6] and Revelation 4:6-8.

 

They are male because Satan was a fallen Cherub.

 

No, he wasn't defeated, as I said," He allowed it"

 

 

As does Christianity.

 

I don't see how pagan brutality makes God not a Father.

 

As I have said several times, your only picking certain verses.

 

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

 

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

 

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

 

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

 

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

 

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

 

However in the end these verses, yours or mine, don't prove anything. For proof we must look to the early Christians, the ones who knew the apostles, and see how they interpreted scripture.

 

Here is their verdict.

 

 

 

Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

 

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

 

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

 

 

 

Aristides

"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

 

 

 

Tatian the Syrian

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

 

 

 

Melito of Sardis

"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

 

 

 

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

 

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).

 

 

 

Clement of Alexandria

"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

 

"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).

 

 

 

Tertullian

"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

 

"That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

 

 

 

Origen

"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

 

 

 

Hippolytus

"Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

 

 

 

Hippolytus of Rome

"For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34).

 

 

 

Novatian

"If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God" (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

 

 

 

Cyprian of Carthage

"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).

 

 

 

Gregory the Wonderworker

"There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

 

 

 

Arnobius

"‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).

 

 

 

Lactantius

"He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).

 

"We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [but w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29).

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Sorry. Double post.

Edited by Heavens Fire

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Also Andalusi can you give me something showing the guilt of the ancient hebrew scribes? Maybe a righteous man calling them out for it.

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I have watched your video Andalusi. First off, the "apocrypha" are actually just books from the Septugaint that had a longer period of canonization.

 

Read this article. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-old-testament-canon

 

It shows how these books were regarded by the early Christians as accurate. The reason they were delayed entry into the Canon was due to the Jews rejection of the Septugaint because they were in greek.

 

On the rest of the video. I hardly see scholars taking out things willy nilly.

 

As Wikipedia says:

Improved manuscripts and translations

The Old Testament translation of the RSV was completed before the Dead Sea Scrolls were available to scholars. The NRSV was intended to take advantage of this and other manuscript discoveries, and to reflect advances in scholarship.[2]

 

Elimination of archaism

The RSV retained the archaic second person familiar forms ("thee and thou") when God was addressed but eliminated their use in other contexts. The NRSV eliminated all such archaisms. In a prefatory essay to readers, the translation committee said that "although some readers may regret this change, it should be pointed out that in the original languages neither the Old Testament nor the New makes any linguistic distinction between addressing a human being and addressing the Deity."

 

Gender language

In the preface to the NRSV Bruce Metzger wrote for the committee that “many in the churches have become sensitive to the danger of linguistic sexism arising from the inherent bias of the English language towards the masculine gender, a bias that in the case of the Bible has often restricted or obscured the meaning of the original text”.[2] The RSV observed the older convention of using masculine nouns in a gender-neutral sense (e.g. "man" instead of "person"), and in some cases used a masculine word where the source language used a neuter word. The NRSV by contrast adopted a policy of inclusiveness in gender language.[2] According to Metzger, “The mandates from the Division specified that, in references to men and women, masculine-oriented language should be eliminated as far as this can be done without altering passages that reflect the historical situation of ancient patriarchal culture.”[2]

 

They were using newer manuscripts and removing errors or adding removed parts. In the end translation problems still don't change the Church Fathers view or the illogic of a corrupted bible. See my earlier post. With a corrupt bible Islam ceases to make sense.

 

Also, in my opinion, it matters not whether the Quran is corrupt. As the church fathers show, it is wrong. That is all that matters.

 

One thing I wish could happen would be for Robert Sungenis to debate Mr. Deedat. It is a pity Mr. Deedat is dead. That would have been a most informative debate.

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but you said everyone is responsible of his own sin, so how can then jesus take your sin if you are responsible fot, why are you so illogical now, it does not make any sense at all???

[at] andalusi

 

You seem to be very firm on the notion regarding Jesus substituting himself in our place taking onto himself our sins. I don’t get why this is unacceptable to you considering the below points?

 

 

Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)

 

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)

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I don't see how pagan brutality makes God not a Father. 

 

Father is not appopriate beacuse Father is connected to us via blood, but we have no blood connections to God. So when you say Father then it means GOd had sex with our mothers , and imagine a daughter who's father have abused and reaped her, can you imagine that this title father fits on God? 

 

 

 

 

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

 

i am is not name of God. and when i say I am and some oone stop me and i run away, does it mean that i am GOd.

 

 

 

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

 

i know bible very well, you cant fool me man, why dont you post verses before that

 

 

John 20:21 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

 

so when jesus showed him that he is alived after they thaought he was dead, Thomas said My God, in other words "Oooooh my Gooooood" 

 

if i think you are dead and you come to me, and i scream Oh my Gooooodm does this mean i think you are my God???

 

 

 

 

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

 

dont bring me paul here, he had not same teachings as jesus. so he thoughts are irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

 

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

 

so evidence  or you is a dream of John of Pathmos that jesus is God, how can you rely on a dream from a person you dont even know.

 

 

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

 

that was a dream from John,. that is absolutly no evidence for me.

 

Evidence would be when jesus say, I am your God worship me, not dreams from people you dont know. 

 

 

 

 

However in the end these verses, yours or mine, don't prove anything. For proof we must look to the early Christians, the ones who knew the apostles, and see how they interpreted scripture. 

 

Here is their verdict. 

 

those verse does not prove at all that jesus was God

 

and by the way, i post to you verses from bible that jesus is not God and you come to me with sayings of people who liveed after jesus.

 

imagine Quran says to me dont ever drink alcohol, and you say to me dont you know that quran forbids you alcohol, and then i say to you, but let see what other people said about it, they said that you can drink only a glas/day

 

so you actually prefering sayings of people instead of your opwn holy book.

 

BGible clearly says, i am not a man, and jesus is a man, in other words jesus is not GOd.

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Also Andalusi can you give me something showing the guilt of the ancient hebrew scribes? Maybe a righteous man calling them out for it.

 

i gave it to you Jeremiah 8:8

 

of course i can give you, Jesus himself

 

look here

Matthew 12:34

You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.

38

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you."

39

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

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[at] andalusi

 

You seem to be very firm on the notion regarding Jesus substituting himself in our place taking onto himself our sins. I don’t get why this is unacceptable to you considering the below points?

 

 

Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)

 

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)

 

i will explain to you what that means

 

everyone of us have to places eaighter paradise or Hell

 

so if i go to paradise a jew or christian will take my place in hell while i will take theirs in paradise if i go there. that is what it means.

 

GOd does not need blood sacrifice.

 

i really cant understand you christioan how can you think that  a innocent man can take your sins. for me there is absolutly no logic in your christian teachings. that is why i prefer Islam rather than christianity, beacus eislam fits your mind and logic and reason, christian teaching are in ottal conforntation with bible itself and logic.

 

1+1+1=1 how can this be logical???

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so if i go to paradise a jew or christian will take my place in hell while i will take theirs in paradise if i go there. that is what it means.

Hence the word "substitution". What else would you call it?

Edited by Gods Servant

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i will explain to you what that means

 

everyone of us have to places eaighter paradise or Hell

 

so if i go to paradise a jew or christian will take my place in hell while i will take theirs in paradise if i go there. that is what it means.

 

GOd does not need blood sacrifice.

 

i really cant understand you christioan how can you think that a innocent man can take your sins. for me there is absolutly no logic in your christian teachings. that is why i prefer Islam rather than christianity, beacus eislam fits your mind and logic and reason, christian teaching are in ottal conforntation with bible itself and logic.

 

1+1+1=1 how can this be logical???

It's not 1+1+1=1. It's 1x1x1=1

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Father is not appopriate beacuse Father is connected to us via blood, but we have no blood connections to God. So when you say Father then it means GOd had sex with our mothers , and imagine a daughter who's father have abused and reaped her, can you imagine that this title father fits on God?

 

 

 

 

i am is not name of God. and when i say I am and some oone stop me and i run away, does it mean that i am GOd.

 

 

 

i know bible very well, you cant fool me man, why dont you post verses before that

 

 

John 20:21 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

 

so when jesus showed him that he is alived after they thaought he was dead, Thomas said My God, in other words "Oooooh my Gooooood"

 

if i think you are dead and you come to me, and i scream Oh my Gooooodm does this mean i think you are my God???

 

 

 

 

dont bring me paul here, he had not same teachings as jesus. so he thoughts are irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

so evidence or you is a dream of John of Pathmos that jesus is God, how can you rely on a dream from a person you dont even know.

 

 

that was a dream from John,. that is absolutly no evidence for me.

 

Evidence would be when jesus say, I am your God worship me, not dreams from people you dont know.

 

 

 

 

those verse does not prove at all that jesus was God

 

and by the way, i post to you verses from bible that jesus is not God and you come to me with sayings of people who liveed after jesus.

 

imagine Quran says to me dont ever drink alcohol, and you say to me dont you know that quran forbids you alcohol, and then i say to you, but let see what other people said about it, they said that you can drink only a glas/day

 

so you actually prefering sayings of people instead of your opwn holy book.

 

BGible clearly says, i am not a man, and jesus is a man, in other words jesus is not GOd.

 

I have posted your comments with mine below them. If it is confusing let me know.

 

Father is not appopriate beacuse Father is connected to us via blood, but we have no blood connections to God. So when you say Father then it means GOd had sex with our mothers , and imagine a daughter who's father have abused and reaped her, can you imagine that this title father fits on God?

 

I disagree. God is connected to us by the blood of Jesus Christ. On your parental abuse example, that is because of humanities fallen nature. The fact that humans can be bad fathers doesn't mean God isn't one.

 

i am is not name of God. and when i say I am and some oone stop me and i run away, does it mean that i am GOd

 

More important then the I am is the fact that Jesus said he was before Abraham. Imagine me telling you that I was before Muhammad.

 

Actually from the context I am meant God. After all in Judaism God's name is I am who am and right after Jesus said this he was almost executed.

 

i know bible very well, you cant fool me man, why dont you post verses before that

 

 

John 20:21 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

 

so when jesus showed him that he is alived after they thaought he was dead, Thomas said My God, in other words "Oooooh my Gooooood"

 

if i think you are dead and you come to me, and i scream Oh my Gooooodm does this mean i think you are my God???

 

Here I will paste a small piece of an article. It explains this.

 

I do agree with you that if this event had happened in the secular American cultural and sociological background such an explanantion would have a point.

 

But we have to read the Biblical statements on the background of the cultural and religious norms of THAT time.

 

I have grown up in a Christian family and one thing we learned growing up is to not use the name of God flippantly. It is okay to say "God" if you talk to him in prayer or about him to others. You are allowed to say "God" if you mean "God". And the same holds true for the name "Jesus".

 

In my family nobody uses "My God!" [or the German equivalent"] for an exlamation or any expression of amazement.

 

In Germany just as in the US many people DO use the name of God or Jesus MORE OFTEN as a curse word or in a statement of astonishment (as you indicate above) than in the true meaning.

 

But this does not mean this is right and acceptable for CHRISTIANS to do so. And for devout believers among the JEWS this issue is even stricter than for Christians. Just have a look at the Jewish newsgroup and see how many orthodox Jews write "G-d" and "L-rd" instead of "God" and "Lord" because the misuse of the name of God is so serious an offense that even in the place where it would be correct use they rather substitute it with only a "hint" of the name.

 

Why is that? It is based on one of the Ten Commandments, the core of God's law for his people:

 

You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God,

for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless

who misuses his name.

Exodus 20:7

"My God!" is not in my vocabulary for astonishment. And even in the greatest surprise you will never hear that from me. Since I don't use it for small surprises that expression doesn't come out in big ones either, because in the times you are caught off guard then you say what is "in you", i.e. according to your habits. But since I am not in the habit of it, that will never come out under "stress" either.

 

The disciples of Jesus of Jesus were devout Jewish believers, I don't think anybody would doubt that - and even the Qur'an calls them submitters to God. And submitting to God means to submit to his commands. Exodus 20:7 is one of the central ones.

 

dont bring me paul here, he had not same teachings as jesus. so he thoughts are irrelevant.

 

His teachings were recognized by the Apostles as valid. That makes him relevant.

 

so evidence or you is a dream of John of Pathmos that jesus is God, how can you rely on a dream from a person you dont even know.

 

that was a dream from John,. that is absolutly no evidence for me.

 

Evidence would be when jesus say, I am your God worship me, not dreams from people you dont know.

 

You claim that this is incorrect because John has a dream. I admit to not having studied the book of revelations in great detail however I can't find the word dream in it. Here is what I do find.

 

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Revelation 1:2 who gives witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ by reporting what he saw.

 

It was no dream. It was an angel with revelation.

 

those verse does not prove at all that jesus was God

 

and by the way, i post to you verses from bible that jesus is not God and you come to me with sayings of people who liveed after jesus.

 

imagine Quran says to me dont ever drink alcohol, and you say to me dont you know that quran forbids you alcohol, and then i say to you, but let see what other people said about it, they said that you can drink only a glas/day

 

so you actually prefering sayings of people instead of your opwn holy book.

 

BGible clearly says, i am not a man, and jesus is a man, in other words jesus is not GOd.

 

First off those sayings aren't from any random people on the street. Second I am a Catholic. Thus our beliefs are to be drawn from not only scripture but tradition and the Magisterium as well. Third as I have shown you the bible says Jesus is God.

 

As I explained when you quoted Hosea earlier:

 

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).

 

Those who deny that Jesus has two natures, the divine and human, will often quote Numbers 23:19 as proof that Jesus cannot be God in flesh. But this verse is not a challenge to the doctrine that Christ is God in flesh. First of all, at the time Numbers was written, God had not yet become incarnate. So, it is true that God was not then a man - because the Word had not yet become flesh (John 1:1,14). Remember, the verse says, "God IS not a man..." Second, the verse says that "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent." In other words, the verse is dealing with the issue that God does not lie nor does he repent (of his sins). The verse isn't denying that the Word becomes incarnate later on. Instead, it is saying that God is not like people because he does not lie, nor does he need to repent from sin.

 

Those who would use this verse to deny the incarnation of the Word in flesh should read what it actually says. From http:///god-is-not-a-man

 

Thus your objection is refuted.

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i gave it to you Jeremiah 8:8

 

of course i can give you, Jesus himself

 

look here

Matthew 12:34

You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.

38

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you."

39

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

I already replied to Jerehmiah. If it was about bible corruption and the scribes were corrupting it, why wouldn't they just delete that verse?

 

Jesus is saying that they are wicked and corrupt. However he isn't saying they corrupted scripture.

 

Also not all the scribes were bad.

 

Here Jesus talks to a good scribe.

Mark 12:28-34

New International Version (NIV)

The Greatest Commandment

 

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

 

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

 

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

Wouldn't this scribe or others like him, those who took the law seriously, not react well to the law being changed?

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