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 I cannot answer this question for you only for me, but I can tell you that it is written that Jesus is the word of God. You must come to your conclusion of who Jesus is to you. I don't and will never make my decision based on the Quran like you do. The way you see problems with the Bible I do with the Quran.

 

Nevertheless, the Quran states that Jesus is the word of Allah. If Jesus is the word of God, that means what is written in JN.1 is correct. "In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God" Now this sounds reasonable and logical to me that if Jesus is the word of God (Which He is), then I have come to the logical conclusion that God's word must be eternal and uncreated. Again logic tells me that there was never a time God was without His word. Do you believe this? If you don't, then the problem is with you not me or the Bible friend.

Peace

 

1. JESUS (PBUH) "IS A WORD FROM Allah" NOT "THE WORD OF Allah"

 

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Ali ‘Imran Chapter 3 verse 45

 

"Behold! The angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus. The son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those Nearest to Allah.

 

[Al-Qur’an 3:45]

 

Jesus (pbuh) is referred in the Qur’an as a word from Allah and not as ‘the word of Allah’.

 

"A word" of Allah means a message of Allah. If a person is referred to as "a word" from Allah, it means that he is a Messenger or a Prophet of Allah.

 

2. THE TITLE OF A PROPHET (PBUH) DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT EXCLUSIVELY BELONGS TO THAT PROPHET (PBUH)

 

Different titles are given to different prophets (pbut). Whenever a title is given to a prophet (pbuh), it does not necessarily mean that the other prophets do not have the same characteristic or quality. For e.g. Prophet Abraham (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Khaleelullah, a friend of Allah. This does not indicate that all the other Prophets (pbuh) were not the friends of Allah. Prophet Moses (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Kaleemullah, indicating that God spoke to him. This does not mean that God did not speak to others. Similarly when Jesus (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah, "a word from Allah", it does not mean that the other Prophets were not "the word," of Allah.

 

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/misconceptions/d04.htm

Edited by Absolute truth
Correction
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3. JOHN THE BAPTIST (PBUH) IS ALSO CALLED "A WORD" OF Allah

 

Yahya (pbuh) i.e. John the Baptist (pbuh) is also referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah i.e. a word of Allah in Surah Ali ‘Imran, Chapter 3, verses 38-39

 

"There did Zakariya Pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

 

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet – of the (goodly) company of the righteous."

 

[Al-Qur’an 3:39]

 

 

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/misconceptions/d04.htm

 

As-salamu 'alaikum

 

Yahya (pbuh) is not called a Word of Allah. http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=543&Itemid=46

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Hence the word "substitution". What else would you call it?

 

it is not substitution, all go where they deserve.

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It's not 1+1+1=1. It's 1x1x1=1

 

:D Father 1, Son 1 and Holy ghost 1 = i cant see 1 here , beacuse these are 3 persons, you cant multiply these.

 

when i say father and son, you think 2 person, Father bearded old man and young son in form of jesus. when i say Son and the holy ghost, you think on jesus and the dove. no matter how much you try to bring 3 entities into 1 your mind will allways think 3 persons and not 1.

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it is not substitution, all go where they deserve.

Take a look at what you said below.

 

a jew or christian will TAKE MY PLACE in hell while i will take theirs in paradise

 

What does TAKE MY PLACE mean?

 

Here’s the google definition of substitution “The action of replacing someone or something with another person or thing”

 

https://www.google.com.au/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=1eeeba87fec92eef&q=substitution+definition

 

Your explanation fits perfectly with the definition of substitution, so I would suggest you re-think your criticism about Jesus dying for our sins.

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I disagree. God is connected to us by the blood of Jesus Christ. On your parental abuse example, that is because of humanities fallen nature. The fact that humans can be bad fathers doesn't mean God isn't one. 

 

absolutly not, do you even know what is blood relations. these relations are only you parents and ofsprings. how can jesus be you father, or God when God is not man nor has any blood connections to any of us.

 

 

The fact that humans can be bad fathers doesn't mean God isn't one. 

 

so you think that God can also be bad to humans. how, explain that? if you mean that he punish them for their sins, is it that is why he is bad?

 

 

 

 

More important then the I am is the fact that Jesus said he was before Abraham. Imagine me telling you that I was before Muhammad. 

 

Actually from the context I am meant God. After all in Judaism God's name is I am who am and right after Jesus said this he was almost executed.

 

 

we muslims can understand what Jesus say beacuse we have divine manual quran wich explains stuff about prophets and our belief system

 

what did Jesus meant by that

 

Actually, according to Islam - all of us were existing prior to being born - all of us were presented in front of Almighty God and asked the question, "Am I not your Lord?" And we all said, "Yes." And then Almighty God put us in the 'backbone' of Adam after removing the experience from our memory.

 

so that does not absolutly mean that he was God, you christians have missunderstood bile completly.

 

 

 

 His teachings were recognized by the Apostles as valid. That makes him relevant. 

 

nobody can justify Paul when jesus say something and Paul abolish that and say totally something else. that is unaccaptable in Islam to follow human before prophets. that is why christians lost true direction beacuse they follow Paul and not jesus, while we muslims follow jesus , muhammed, abraham, moses. but you follow Paul, that is difference between you and us.

 

 

 

 

 

You claim that this is incorrect because John has a dream. I admit to not having studied the book of revelations in great detail however I can't find the word dream in it. Here is what I do find. 

It was no dream. It was an angel with revelation.

 

as you said you have not studied , but i have at least something.

 

are you sure that it was not dream, let have look now if it is dream or not

 

 

 

Revelation 13

New International Version (NIV)

The Beast out of the Sea

13 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard,but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

 

beast.jpg

 

is this not a dream, where can you see such beasts, ONLY IN DREAMS, NOWHERE ELSE. THAT IS WHY YOU CANT verses from book of revelation as evidence for anything.

 

 

 

Third as I have shown you the bible says Jesus is God. 

 

trust me, you have not. i would admit it if you had, but you have not showed me 1% that jesus is God.

 

 

 

 

As I explained when you quoted Hosea earlier:

 

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).

 

Those who deny that Jesus has two natures, the divine and human, will often quote Numbers 23:19 as proof that Jesus cannot be God in flesh. But this verse is not a challenge to the doctrine that Christ is God in flesh. First of all, at the time Numbers was written, God had not yet become incarnate. So, it is true that God was not then a man - because the Word had not yet become flesh (John 1:1,14). Remember, the verse says, "God IS not a man..." Second, the verse says that "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent." In other words, the verse is dealing with the issue that God does not lie nor does he repent (of his sins). The verse isn't denying that the Word becomes incarnate later on. Instead, it is saying that God is not like people because he does not lie, nor does he need to repent from sin.

 

Those who would use this verse to deny the incarnation of the Word in flesh should read what it actually says.

 

 

jesus two natures, come on man, is this hard to understand "God is not a man",, why do you complicate your relgion so much

 

if HE SAYS HE IS NOT MAN, THEN HE IS NOT, END OF THE STORY. NO matter how hard you try to force God into jesus this bible verse will allways disprove you. and by the way are you aware that you will God to Hell in the hereafter if you associate partners with God, in this case jesus.

 

why do you believe in two Gods man?? GOd father and God son, they are not same, beacuse jesus said my father is greater than i. it means Father > Son, not Father = Son. so you actually believe in two GOds, while jesus said our lord is One. so why are you going against jesus and bible???

 

God said in the quran:

 

5:72 Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.

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It's not 1+1+1=1. It's 1x1x1=1

Don’t waste your time brother, andalusi’s heart is closed. Even if you offer the most simple explanation his eyes will remain shut. Rather follow the advice given by our Lord:

 

“Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” – Matthew 7:6

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Take a look at what you said below.

 

 

What does TAKE MY PLACE mean?

 

Here’s the google definition of substitution “The action of replacing someone or something with another person or thing”

 

https://www.google.com.au/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=1eeeba87fec92eef&q=substitution+definition

 

Your explanation fits perfectly with the definition of substitution, so I would suggest you re-think your criticism about Jesus dying for our sins.

 

 

What does TAKE MY PLACE mean?

 

 

let say it like this

 

 

me and you are going to do a test, the one who win shall go to room with full of cakes, good food for free, and the one who lose shall go to a room to clean the room. in each room there is two place for each of us. so if i will i go and eat both my and your food for free, and you go and clea the room both for me and you.

 

take my place in this case mean you clean the are in the room wich i should have done if i went there  :D

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Don’t waste your time brother, andalusi’s heart is closed. Even if you offer the most simple explanation his eyes will remain shut. Rather follow the advice given by our Lord:

 

“Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” – Matthew 7:6

 

my heart closed :rolleyes: , i am just logical, that is all, you christians have absolutly not showed 1% evidence that jesus is God. just wishful thinking wich contradicts the bible.

 

here is a question for you

 

Is jesus and GOd 1 or 2 ? are they Jesus/Son = God/Father ?

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let say it like this  me and you are going to do a test, the one who win shall go to room with full of cakes, good food for free, and the one who lose shall go to a room to clean the room. in each room there is two place for each of us. so if i will i go and eat both my and your food for free, and you go and clea the room both for me and you. take my place in this case mean you clean the are in the room wich i should have done if i went there  :D

Ok have it your way....that seems a little too far fetched for me.

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my heart closed :rolleyes: , i am just logical, that is all, you christians have absolutly not showed 1% evidence that jesus is God. just wishful thinking wich contradicts the bible. here is a question for you Is jesus and GOd 1 or 2 ? are they Jesus/Son = God/Father ?

You can't even adequately explain your own Islamic passages. There's no way I'm going to discuss my precious bible with u. I'm outer this thread. I think I'll just stick to asking questions about Islam in this forum.

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I already replied to Jerehmiah. If it was about bible corruption and the scribes were corrupting it, why wouldn't they just delete that verse? 

 

probably beacuse these books in bible were separate, when scribers changed something in one book other scribers wrote in their book about the corruption of others. and after a period people joined all these holy texts into one book called Bible.

 

 

 

Wouldn't this scribe or others like him, those who took the law seriously, not react well to the law being changed? 

 

they probabaly did, that is why they wrote jer 8:8

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You can't even adequately explain your own Islamic passages. There's no way I'm going to discuss my precious bible with u. I'm outer this thread. I think I'll just stick to asking questions about Islam in this forum.

 

cant you answer my question to you??? are they too hard for you??

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 I cannot answer this question for you only for me, but I can tell you that it is written that Jesus is the word of God. You must come to your conclusion of who Jesus is to you. I don't and will never make my decision based on the Quran like you do. The way you see problems with the Bible I do with the Quran.

 

Nevertheless, the Quran states that Jesus is the word of Allah. If Jesus is the word of God, that means what is written in JN.1 is correct. "In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God" Now this sounds reasonable and logical to me that if Jesus is the word of God (Which He is), then I have come to the logical conclusion that God's word must be eternal and uncreated. Again logic tells me that there was never a time God was without His word. Do you believe this? If you don't, then the problem is with you not me or the Bible friend.

Peace

 

this is translated wrong

In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God

 

it should be translated and the word was divine. as some bible translators have translated from greek manuscripts.  

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 divine (dɪˈvaɪn)

 

— adj

1. of, relating to, or characterizing God or a deity

2. godlike

3. of, relating to, or associated with religion or worship: the divine liturgy

4. of supreme excellence or worth

5. informal splendid; perfect

 

Every major translation I look at translates it to God.

 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

But even if divine is rendered, it means something that can only pertain to God. God's word couldn't be less than divine in the true sense of the word. God is Divine. Divine in the context of that verse means God and relates only to the subject of the verse.

A person is only as good as their word. The same pertains to God. God cannot be greater than His word. for instance with God cannot keep His word, He ceases to be God

 

 

1) Mistranslation of the text:

In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).

Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as

"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."

The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read

"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'"

The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317

In yet another Bible we read:

"The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine"

The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, by Dr. James Moffatt

Please also see "The Authentic New Testament" by Hugh J. Schonfield and many others.

 

 

What was "The Word"?

"O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from him so believe in Allah and his messengers. Say not "Three," desist! It will be better for you, for Allah is one God. Glory be to him. Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):171

In the Qur'an we are told that when God Almighty wills something he merely says to it "Be" and it is.

"Verily! Our (Allah's) Word unto a thing when We intend it, is only that We say unto it "Be!" - and it is"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nahil(16):40 (please also read chapter 14) 

This is the Islamic viewpoint of "The Word." "The Word" is literally God's utterance "Be." This is held out by the Bible where thirteen verses later in John 1:14 we read: 

"And the Word was made flesh".

In the Qur'an, we read: 

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be.' And he was."

The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):59.

Regarding what is meant by Allah by "a spirit preceding from him" I shall simply let Allah Himself explain: 

"And [remember] when Allah said to the angles: 'I shall create a human (Adam) from sounding clay, from altered mud. So when I have fashioned him and have breathed into him of my spirit, then fall down in prostration before him'"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Hijr(15):29

 

 

But even if divine is rendered, it means something that can only pertain to God. God's word couldn't be less than divine in the true sense of the word. God is Divine. Divine in the context of that verse means God and relates only to the subject of the verse.

A person is only as good as their word. The same pertains to God. God cannot be greater than His word. for instance with God cannot keep His word, He ceases to be God 

 

as i said before you christians do not have manual to understand these texts from bible, like we muslims have quran wich is real word from God without any distortion or corruption. that is why we can understand what jesus say in bible and you can not.

 

the word was divine, means GOd said word "Be" and jesus was crated in the mother's womb. that is why it is said in bible the word was divine. 

"And the Word was made flesh".

WHen GOd said word "Be" jesus flesh was created in the mother's womb. 

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:D Father 1, Son 1 and Holy ghost 1 = i cant see 1 here , beacuse these are 3 persons, you cant multiply these.

 

when i say father and son, you think 2 person, Father bearded old man and young son in form of jesus. when i say Son and the holy ghost, you think on jesus and the dove. no matter how much you try to bring 3 entities into 1 your mind will allways think 3 persons and not 1.

You are right on part of the first paragraph. Multiplication doesn't mathematically make clear the relationship between the three persons of the trinity. I sat and thought and read on this. I found this analogy covered it the most effectively.

 

From the Matheology of the trinity part two:

"Now, let us slowly work up to the main example I want to present. Let us start with two in one before we go to the more complicated three in one.

 

Imagine to live in the two-dimensional world (of the xy-plane). In two dimensions, a rectangle (not just the boundary, but filled in) and a circle or disk are two very different shapes. And if we were to live in just two dimensions and that is all we know and then a rectangle and a disc come along and claim to be one and the same "object" and you should believe in the doctrine of Duality, you as most others of those two dimensional beings would just laugh at them and declare them to be crazy.

 

But do you see that the doctrine of this "Duality" does make sense if you allow just one more dimension? There might even be some religious group of those two dimensional beings who happen to believe in the Duality although they have a hard time making that intelligible to their fellow 2-d'ers ...

 

Okay, here is the solution, which the 2-d'ers might never completely understand, but you and I are luckily living in 3 dimensions and can only smile at the limited brain power of 2-dimensional beings (as God is maybe sometimes smiling at us in our petty fights).

 

And for the sake of argument, let us assume, that all the 2-d beings are of rectangular shape. And like in the real world, there are small and large ones, fat ones and tall ones etc. I think you get the gist.

 

The solution of the mysterious unity of circle and rectangle is the cylinder. The equations for the 'standard' cylinder in 3 dimensions centered at the origin of the coordinate system [i hope I don't lose you now] is [r = radius = 1, h = height = 2 in our example]:

 

2 2 2

1 = r = x + y,

2 2

or, if we want to have the filled in cylinder: x + y =< 1

 

and -1 =< z =< 1 for the height, where "=<" means "less or equal".

Now if this ONE object "passes through" (incarnates into?) the two- dimensional world of the xy-plane in the direction of the z-axis, i.e. we add the parameter t = time and get -1 =< z - t =< 1, then the intersection of the cylinder with the xy-plane would be a circle for times t in the interval [-1,1] and that is what the 2-dimensional congregation of believers would see.

 

{And for for other times, the cylinder/circle would disappear completely and be unseen, which is somehow similar to our situation today, it seems to me.}

 

In this setting, at all times apart from some finite time interval of 'circular theophany', or better 'circular cylindrophany' the object would be invisible. [theophany = the visibility of God, apparition of God; so 'circular cylindrophany' which is a word I took the liberty to invent, would be the appearance of a cylinder in a circular shape.]

 

Now, no doubt you have already seen, that the cylinder might decide to rotate 90 degrees at some time where it is outside the xy-plane and come back at the same place and pass through the xy-plane as a rectangle (of varying size). Each intersection of a cylinder that is perpendicular to its base circle is a rectangle.

 

Alternatively, the 'object' might decide to only do the circular revelation by the method of projection, i.e. the light of revelation in parallel beams is going to reveal a circular shaddow in the xy-plane. And the beings only used to rectangular shapes are very much awed of it. When this object then also promises that it will come and live among them, this is all too mysterious for them and not well understood by them. How can a circular being live in a rectangular coordinate world? This is absolutely impossible. And then, when this object passes through in this rectangular shape, looking so very much like them and does all sorts of miracles and heals some badly dented rectangles and even some which had been squeezed dead into a purely onedimensional piece of line are resurrected into a two-dimensional rectangular life again, this awesome event does cause quite some uproar in xy-world.

 

All this has very much confused our 2-dimensional population to the greatest extent and created or changed different religions. Those who believe in many 'objects of worship' (poly-objectists), and have already a whole garden variety of shapes they worship, will have not trouble to incorporate also the circle and rectangles of any form into their "pantheon" of adorable shapes.

 

And then there are different groups of mono-objectists who agree that the 'polies' have an abominable theory and are idolators. Among these 'monos' are those who believe in the circle only and are stuck in the first revelation completely blind to the events that happened among them. The second group has seen the many miracles of this "rectangle just like them" and has decided to believe ALL that is revealed, and trust the 'object' when the 'object' was saying that it is ONE although it seems to look different at different times.

 

And then, yet another group comes on the scene quite a bit later after all of this had long happened and they decide to not completely ignore the second revelation. After all, something quite momenteous has happened. And they do believe that the object has done miracles through the hand of this extraordinary rectangle, but they declare the records of all this rectangle has said to be corrupted and it in reality was not the object itself but just some ordinary rectangle who was only a messenger of the object. And they side with the first group who says, that it has been clear from the beginning in the projection revelation that the object is a disc and that is it. So, the third group of 'mono-objectists' just declare that all true worshippers of the true object have always and at all times believed only in the disc and nothing else."

 

From matheology of the trinity part three:

"After we have seen how the duality of circle and rectangle can be united in one cylindrical object, it should not come to anyone's surprise anymore, that even in our very own three-dimensional world, there are objects that incorporate three different projections in one body.

 

Imagine again a cube of side length 2. If you look at it from above, you see a square, into which we can neatly fit a circle of radius 1. Consider using a rotating cylinder saw of this circle shape, which comes down on the cube in direction of the z-axis and cuts out a circular cylinder of radius 1 and height 2.

 

Next operation: Look at the cylinder that is left in the direction of the x-axis and cut away in direction of the x-axis everything that is outside of a triangle with base length 2, height two and the other two sides of equal length.

 

If we project a shadow of this object into the xy-plane (z-direction), we will see a disc shaddow. If we project this object in the x-direction onto the yz-plane we will see a isosceles triangle shaddow and if you project this object in y-direction onto the xz-plane you still see the original 2x2 square shaddow.

 

[i would really appreciate some computer graphics whizz making me a graphic of this, i.e. the object and its three projections in the three coordinate planes. Imagine the object being completely in the first octant of the coordinate system far enough out that you can see the object and the projections on the planes. I would love to include such a picture file here on the web page version of this article.]

 

Another aspects of this model: Just as the disc shaddow, the square shaddow and the triangle shaddow are "equally valid" projections of the object into the space of comprehension of a 2-dimensional being, so are the person of Father, the person of the Son and the person of the Holy Spirit equally God - that is what the Bible says - and that is the way God revealed Himself into the realm of human comprehension.

 

So, this object is undoubtedly one but nevertheless reveals itself as shaddows of three distinct forms.

 

And don't we all know that we can see only some sides of any 3-d object at one time and never all of them at once (if the object isn't small enough and we don't use mirrors)? Think of a big wonderful villa.

 

We can walk around it and admire it from all sides, but still only at most 2 sides at a time while we are on ground level. If we could fly or climb a tree or nearby hill, then we might also see the roof and hence 3 sides, but never all 5 theoretically visible sides and never the last side, its bottom side.

 

This is another analogy of the Trinity. The object of our thinking is too big. We can never at the same time think (see) of all of Him. We can think of God from different sides/angles and we see different aspects of him. And those different sides look maybe so different, that we have a hard time imagining they are the same object. If we were only given the shaddows and not the revelation that it really is one object and the three different shaddows really belong together and are "one" original object we might not even come to the idea that this might be so.

 

Now, the shadows of the 'object' are dead things. But the 'projections' of God are persons and hence nothing would hinder them of talking to each other (Jesus prays) and about each other to the human beings. And that is exactly what happens. God talks through prophets in the Old Testament to the people. And He talks about Himself as distant and transcendent but also talks about being near and that He himself will come and 'visit' His people.

 

We can think of the Old Testament as telling us humans who live in one coordinate plane about God's projection onto other coordinate planes. But then God also 'projects himself' into our own world (coordinate plane) as God. The Son and relates to us directly. And while He is visibly among us, He still talks about the other persons of God which are unseen. God, the Father, of whom they have already heard much through the earlier prophets, and He also talks about the third person (projection) who He will send soon.

 

And if you do not like "projection" since this is something 'outside' of the real object, then you can just as well use 'intersection' with the coordinate planes, and then the 'intersection' is part of the object itself. Then another verse suddenly becomes integrated into the model. Namely, Jesus says, that He has to leave first before the Spirit can come and live inside of the believers. In the model, the (and any material) object can have only have one shape of intersection with the same part of one coordinate plane at a given time.

 

And it is yet again similar to the Biblical Trinity in the sense, that these three projections/intersections are 'co-existing'. It is not the modalist heresy which says that God came in different roles at different times and transformed from one to the other. No, all three persons are real and alive at the same time.

 

Now God is not inhabiting 'physical' or 'mathematical' space which are abstractions of the MATERIAL world. He is not so long, this wide, and that high, nor is he " this number of years old" (since we live really in a 4-dimensional space time world). Those are not the "measurements" we can put God into. He is spirit. He is the Creator of all that is and is "above" the created world."

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1) Mistranslation of the text:

In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).

Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as

"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."

The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read

"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'"

The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317

In yet another Bible we read:

"The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine"

The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, by Dr. James Moffatt

Please also see "The Authentic New Testament" by Hugh J. Schonfield and many others.

 

What was "The Word"?

"O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from him so believe in Allah and his messengers. Say not "Three," desist! It will be better for you, for Allah is one God. Glory be to him. Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):171

In the Qur'an we are told that when God Almighty wills something he merely says to it "Be" and it is.

"Verily! Our (Allah's) Word unto a thing when We intend it, is only that We say unto it "Be!" - and it is"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nahil(16):40 (please also read chapter 14)

This is the Islamic viewpoint of "The Word." "The Word" is literally God's utterance "Be." This is held out by the Bible where thirteen verses later in John 1:14 we read:

"And the Word was made flesh".

In the Qur'an, we read:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be.' And he was."

The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):59.

Regarding what is meant by Allah by "a spirit preceding from him" I shall simply let Allah Himself explain:

"And [remember] when Allah said to the angles: 'I shall create a human (Adam) from sounding clay, from altered mud. So when I have fashioned him and have breathed into him of my spirit, then fall down in prostration before him'"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Hijr(15):29

 

as i said before you christians do not have manual to understand these texts from bible, like we muslims have quran wich is real word from God without any distortion or corruption. that is why we can understand what jesus say in bible and you can not.

the word was divine, means GOd said word "Be" and jesus was crated in the mother's womb. that is why it is said in bible the word was divine.

"And the Word was made flesh".

WHen GOd said word "Be" jesus flesh was created in the mother's womb.

First on whether the word was divine or God.

 

Al-Kadhi says: In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?)

 

Yes, John spoke Greek. John lived and preached in Greek speaking regions of Asia Minor.

 

"The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine"

 

It should first be noted that all of known manuscripts and fragments of John's gospel contains this passage without any variation. It should also be noted that John 1:1 was quoted on several occasions by early Christian theologians and Church Fathers.

 

The Greek text (with transliteration):

 

 

Clearly, there is no "ton theos", in this text as Al-Kadhi and Deedat claim. Both sentences have the phrase "ton theon". "Ton theon" is used because it is the accusative case (the nominative case is "ho theos" = "the God",) In this case we must use the accusative case, since the text uses the preposition "pros" which means "with" in this context.

 

Al-Kadhi and Deedat should know that the article "ho" (nominative case) and "ton" (accusative case) both translate as "the". Incidentally, the Greek word for "divine" is "theios, theia, theion", depending on the gender.

 

As always, Al-Kadhi provides us with several "Christian" scholars, and their translations, to support his point of view. Other sections discuss the scholarship of these "scholars" and their biases.

 

If you want links to the other sections PM me.

 

Now on your Quran claims. Actually we Christians have a something to sort out truth. That is the words of the Church Fathers and the tradition passed down from the Apostles as well as the Magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit. Both show the Quran to be in error.

 

The Church fathers are very important for understanding the bible. I am still reading through them myself. For those interested please read this site. It has all of their writings.

 

http://m.biblestudytools.com/history/early-church-fathers/

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absolutly not, do you even know what is blood relations. these relations are only you parents and ofsprings. how can jesus be you father, or God when God is not man nor has any blood connections to any of us.

 

 

so you think that God can also be bad to humans. how, explain that? if you mean that he punish them for their sins, is it that is why he is bad?

 

 

 

 

 

we muslims can understand what Jesus say beacuse we have divine manual quran wich explains stuff about prophets and our belief system

 

what did Jesus meant by that

 

Actually, according to Islam - all of us were existing prior to being born - all of us were presented in front of Almighty God and asked the question, "Am I not your Lord?" And we all said, "Yes." And then Almighty God put us in the 'backbone' of Adam after removing the experience from our memory.

 

so that does not absolutly mean that he was God, you christians have missunderstood bile completly.

 

 

 

nobody can justify Paul when jesus say something and Paul abolish that and say totally something else. that is unaccaptable in Islam to follow human before prophets. that is why christians lost true direction beacuse they follow Paul and not jesus, while we muslims follow jesus , muhammed, abraham, moses. but you follow Paul, that is difference between you and us.

 

 

 

as you said you have not studied , but i have at least something.

 

are you sure that it was not dream, let have look now if it is dream or not

 

 

Revelation 13

New International Version (NIV)

The Beast out of the Sea

13 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard,but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

 

beast.jpg

 

is this not a dream, where can you see such beasts, ONLY IN DREAMS, NOWHERE ELSE. THAT IS WHY YOU CANT verses from book of revelation as evidence for anything.

 

 

 

trust me, you have not. i would admit it if you had, but you have not showed me 1% that jesus is God.

 

 

 

 

 

jesus two natures, come on man, is this hard to understand "God is not a man",, why do you complicate your relgion so much

 

if HE SAYS HE IS NOT MAN, THEN HE IS NOT, END OF THE STORY. NO matter how hard you try to force God into jesus this bible verse will allways disprove you. and by the way are you aware that you will God to Hell in the hereafter if you associate partners with God, in this case jesus.

 

why do you believe in two Gods man?? GOd father and God son, they are not same, beacuse jesus said my father is greater than i. it means Father > Son, not Father = Son. so you actually believe in two GOds, while jesus said our lord is One. so why are you going against jesus and bible???

 

God said in the quran:

 

5:72 Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.

 

 

Paul addresses that here.

 

Romans 8:11-17

New International Version (NIV)

11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[a] his Spirit who lives in you.

 

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

 

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba,[c] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

 

I am not saying that. What I am saying is that we as humans are fallen. Therefore not all of our Fathers are good or love us as they should. However God is good and perfect. Therefore he would be a perfect father.

 

we muslims can understand what Jesus say beacuse we have divine manual quran wich explains stuff about prophets and our belief system

 

what did Jesus meant by that

 

I am confused by your Quran quote. Could you explain it?

 

nobody can justify Paul when jesus say something and Paul abolish that and say totally something else. that is unaccaptable in Islam to follow human before prophets. that is why christians lost true direction beacuse they follow Paul and not jesus, while we muslims follow jesus , muhammed, abraham, moses. but you follow Paul, that is difference between you and us.

 

By saying Paul was accepted by the Apostles I was not attempting to justify Paul. My point was that (unlike Muhammad) Paul had apostolic approval of his teachings. Muhammad did not and had no link to apostolic authority.

Also could you give an example of Paul abolishing something Jesus said? Also we follow everyone on that list except Muhammad and in addition to Paul, Peter and the other apostles.

 

Not necessarily. They can also be in visions sent by God. Of course that is assuming Revelations was literal. If it was allegorical then the verses I posted still stand since in his allegory John showed Jesus as God.

 

On proving Jesus is God. Very well then. Reply to my other verses. Some of them you haven't covered in your post. Also refute my earlier replies on say, Thomas for example, since they attempt to show your points are incorrect.

 

But he was not a man then. The Son was still with God the Father and was not incarnate. Just as the article I linked explained.

 

I do not believe in two gods. I believe in One God with three persons. As my earlier analogy explained.

 

Also on Jesus saying the Father was greater.

CARM explains:

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."

 

Jesus has two natures: divine and human. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father because he had added to Himself human nature (Col. 2:9) and was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4). He became a man to die for people (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

 

A comparison of difference of position can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. He is her head (Eph. 5:23). But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together by love and commitment to the Lord.

 

So, Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-5).

 

Also we haven't really addressed this. Why should I acknowledge the Quran? It contradicts the teachings of the Apostles and as I am trying to illustrate in this post Jesus Christ himself.

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You are right on part of the first paragraph. Multiplication doesn't mathematically make clear the relationship between the three persons of the trinity. I sat and thought and read on this. I found this analogy covered it the most effectively. 

 

From the Matheology of the trinity part two:

"Now, let us slowly work up to the main example I want to present. Let us start with two in one before we go to the more complicated three in one.

 

Imagine to live in the two-dimensional world (of the xy-plane). In two dimensions, a rectangle (not just the boundary, but filled in) and a circle or disk are two very different shapes. And if we were to live in just two dimensions and that is all we know and then a rectangle and a disc come along and claim to be one and the same "object" and you should believe in the doctrine of Duality, you as most others of those two dimensional beings would just laugh at them and declare them to be crazy.

 

 

why do you rape your own mind with this??? why do you complicate and confuse other and yourself with this complicating belief system

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion,

 

so why do you try to be this author??????????????

 

when i read what you post above i realize how great and simple Islam is, if Islam was In two dimensions, a rectangle (not just the boundary, but filled in) and a circle or disk are two very different shapes. And if we were to live in just two dimensions and that is all we know and then a rectangle and a disc come along and claim to be one and the same "object" and you should believe in the doctrine of Duality, you as most others of those two dimensional beings would just laugh at them and declare them to be crazy.

 

no one would follow Islam, i would be the first to run away from it.

 

 

 

 

what did Jesus meant by that

 

I am confused by your Quran quote. Could you explain it?

 

 

 

it means that if you believe that someone else is GOd or equal to God you will go to Hell in the hereafter if you dont repent before death.

Jesus never claimed i am God, jesus himself prayed to God, is is logical that God pray to another God???

 

 

 

By saying Paul was accepted by the Apostles I was not attempting to justify Paul. My point was that (unlike Muhammad) Paul had apostolic approval of his teachings. Muhammad did not and had no link to apostolic authority. 

 

no he did not have apostocil aproval, you cant justify when jesus say You shall not abolish the law of MOses, and paul abolished them.

 

 

 

 

Also could you give an example of Paul abolishing something Jesus said?

 

of course

 

Jesus forbid abolishing the Mosaic laws :

(Matt. 5:17-19), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

It was Paul who abolished the Mosaic Law?

Read Acts 13:39 “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from 

which ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses.” 

 

Paul abolished them and created new relgion christianity:

 

(Eph. 2:14-15), "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace."

 

the eating of pork became acceptable though Jesus never ate 

pork, circumcision was abolished by Paul (Galatians 5:2) 
Behold, I, Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ 
shall profit you nothing.”
Yet circumcision is a covenant between God and Prophet Abraham and his descendants. 
Abraham and his son and men folk of his household were 
ordered to circumcise by God. Because Christianity had deviated 
a long way from the original teachings of Jesus (pbuh), Allah 
then sent as part of His original plan, His final messenger, 
Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) as a revivalist to restore the original 
teachings.

 

so how can you believe and follow this man Paul who had no same teaching as jesus, it was Paul who created christianity not Jesus.

 

watch this short film about how judaism and christianity  was created

 

The Religion of Jesus and Moses is Islam - Ahmad Deedat 

 

 

 

 

Not necessarily. They can also be in visions sent by God. Of course that is assuming Revelations was literal. If it was allegorical then the verses I posted still stand since in his allegory John showed Jesus as God. 

 

wrong, God informed uis in quran that revelations come only to prophets, and how do you know they are prophets, such people preform extraordinary miracles as evidence for their prophethood, moses splitting the sea, jesus giving life to dead, muhammed splitting the moon in two and join it back again.

 

 

 

I do not believe in two gods. I believe in One God with three persons. As my earlier analogy explained. 

 

yes you do. God father and God the son. 2 gods.

 

 

Jesus has two natures: divine and human. 

 

Can God become man?

 

 

 

Jesus was not denying that He was God. 

 

of course he denied, it is just you dont study your bible properlly

 

let have a look here

 

Jesus said:

Luke 18:19

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

 

so Jesus said only God is good, not jesus.

 

 

 

Why should I acknowledge the Quran?

 

beacuse it is unchanged book of God on the face of the earth, it has no errors nor contradictions, it contain guidence for this life, and inform you about life after death.

It contains miracles wich proofs that quran is from God and not humans.

 

1. Scientific miracles wich no man could know during those days, like Big bang, expansion of universe, black holes, pulsars, nebulas and many many other stuff wich need modern techonology to detect these

2. Future stuff in quran wich come true

3. Mathematical programming of the quran wich is impossible to be created by humans

 

 

 

It contradicts the teachings of the Apostles and as I am trying to illustrate in this post Jesus Christ himself.

 

no it does not contradict the teachings of apostoles nor jesus, but it contradict Paul and other liars.

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He wanted the young man to understand the implication of what he was saying. By calling Him good the young man was calling Jesus God since only God is good. Jesus said "Why do you call me good" He didn't say "I am not good" You are reading into the Bible things that are not there. 

 

when i ask you something i want you to answer me

 

Is God Allknowing?

Is Jesus Allknowing?

 

 

 

Paul (thank God for him) brought not a new religion. He brought clarification to the Scriptures. Without Paul the Bible would be like a wandering ship out at sea without a rudder. Jesus called Paul to do what he did. 

 

the law is religion

 

If you bring a law and you say , do not break this law ever.

 

and i come and say, people, you dont need to follow it, just believe in this man Radeemed but you can do whatever you want.

 

Your relgion is your law, and i change it, i allow people to break it, and i just say that they need belief no need for following your law. am i bringing new relgion, new concept of life, yes yes and yes.

 

that is ewxactly what paul did, jesus forbid people to abolish the laws, and Paul abolished them, it clearly says in your holy bible, no matter how hard you try to deny it. it is obvious and clear.

 

 

 

Who called Uthman to burn the Qurans?

 

common sence, if you saw something suspicious with copies of your bibles you would also burned them to protect orginal quran wich you have in your hands.

 

that is exactly what Uthman did. uthman had orginal quran both in the heart, he learned it by heart and he had it on paper, so he commanded to burn all other quran copies wich are written in different dialects. that is all. 

 

 

 

 

You say we should trust the Quran, because it has been unchanged. Even if it were true, how does that make it the word of God? 

 

 

Beacuse it is unchanged book of God on the face of the earth, it has no errors nor contradictions, it contain guidence for this life, and inform you about life after death.

It contains miracles wich proofs that quran is from God and not humans.

 

1. Scientific miracles wich no man could know during those days, like Big bang, expansion of universe, black holes, pulsars, nebulas and many many other stuff wich need modern techonology to detect these

2. Future stuff in quran wich come true

3. Mathematical programming of the quran wich is impossible to be created by humans

 

can you write a book with scinetific stuff wich will be discover first in year 3413 by scientists of the future with their modern techonology?

can you write down in a book what will happen next year, not to talk about that you write in your book what will happen after 1400 years?

can you mathematically program your book that text , chapter numbers and vers numbers  cooperate with eachother? can you do it, and you are illitarate, you cant even write your own name, and you have no computer nor search progras, nor calulus? can you create 73 digit number wich is divisible with 19 ? all this just in your mind, without using any tools? no body can, that is why Quran is from God and not humans. 

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Besides, how can you prove it hasn't been unchanged or that it is perfectly preserved when there is not a single copy that can be traced back to Muhammad's time?

 wrong, Uthman copied from Muhammed's quran wich was in his wife's hous Hafsa.

 

 

 

Isn't it true that you can only trace it back to Uthman who was no prophet with no divine mandate to put the Quran to writing much less make changes in it. Regardless what the changers were; they were still changes. I am I right?

 

no, quran trace back to prophet Muhammed, and i can prove it mathgematically that quran is unchanged since the time of Muhammed.

 

 

 

 

 

Where is the Scriptural evidence Muhammad split the moon?

 

in quran, in prophets hadith and in a Indian manuscript.

 

 

The Prophet Moses in the Bible did miracles for a purpose. The splitting of the sea was to save the lives of the children of israel.

 

that miracle with splitting the see was double purpose, to save people and to show that he was sent by God that he was truly a prophet and no sharlatan.

 

what purpose was transforming the stick into the real snake? to save people or to convince pharao that he was a prophet.

 

 

 

For what purpose did Muhammad split the moon? 
 

 

 

to convince them that he was a prophet of God and no liar.

 

 

 

Besides, if that really happened, wouldn't it be documented in independent sources? The splitting of the moon would have caused catastrophic events around the world tsunamis and all sorts of havoc, but we hear of nothing like that. Why?

 

 

it was documented by independent source, from India. God can split the moon without causing tzunamis and catstrphies on the earth, beacuse what is the point to split them moon and then drown people for that???

 

 

 

Can part of God become man? Can God make His word human? Who can put limits on what God can or cannot do? Christianity always believed God is one with no partners. The idea of partners with God in Christianity is an Islamic invention. The Jews and the Christians always believe God is one. Monotheism was learned from the Jews and Christians. The virgin birth of Jesus was only learned from the Christians. 

 

but you separated him in 3 parts, that is illogical. God is one in 3 parts, that is your belief.

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 If worshipping the word of God (Jesus) is wrong, why didn't Jesus correct people for doing to Jesus when he walked on the earth?

 

but he did, the problem is you missunderstand everything bible say. 

 

sometime bible is very clear but you christian like to complicate and confuse yourself. that is good for me, beacuse you are only making christianity harder and harder to understand, so people realisze that is false concept wich jesus never preached, they leave it and come to Islam. sometime you christians push more christians into Islam than we muslims do. :D

Edited by andalusi

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&nbsp;Wow, then you should be happy to have me around.

You brought up the Quran traces back to Muhammad from His wife Hafsah, but the Quran Muslims have today don't trace back to that, because after Hafsah's death, her copy was destroyed.

 

Just like all the information you share cannot be proven true so is this point here. If Hafsah's copy was still in existence, you would have a point, but as of now, I don't see your point or any of your points for that matter.

If the Bible is so clear to you, why don't you follow it? What is not clear about Jesus saying, "No man comes to the father (God/Allah) except through me?" I simply believe this. You are making the Bible complicated not me. If the Bible is clear, you say it is corrupted, If there are passages that aren't clear, you say it support your points even when it doesn't

 

 

show me evidence from authentic Islamic sources that Hafsa's copy was destroyed.

 

 

If the Bible is so clear to you, why don't you follow it?

 

that something is clear it does not mean that it should be followed.

 

it is clear that bible has errors and contrradictions, beacuse this is clear does it mean that i need to follow it???  :D

 

 

 

 What is not clear about Jesus saying, "No man comes to the father (God/Allah) except through me?" I simply believe this. You are making the Bible complicated not me. If the Bible is clear, you say it is corrupted, If there are passages that aren't clear, you say it support your points even when it doesn't

 

it is perfectly clear that

 

and i believe that, nobody could come to GOd/Allah except trough jesus teachings during those days, if you wanted to go to paradise you needed to follow jesus. but jesus teachings has been corrupted by you christians, that is why you have so much contradictiopns and confusions in your religion.

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  Is God all knowing? Of course He is. That was a dumb question. Now Jesus had limitation being human so he didn't know everything on earth as man on earth, but He does now in heaven seated at the right hand of the father.

 

Law is religion? It is your religion maybe not mine. I have been set free from the law of sin and death by the body of Christ. Does that mean I can do what I want? No, it means I am free to do what is right in Christ, and I am no longer a slave to the laws of sin and death which has its own law like the laws of gravity. Without Christ, I am as slave to the law of sin and death. That is all Paul was trying to say about that. He wanted us to know we are free from religious laws as long as we have a relationship with God through Christ. Without that we are slaves to the law you speak of.

 

You say it is common sense that Uthman burned the Qurans? I don't see that. You say he had it in his heart? I don't see that either. If he did why did he use Hafsha's copy to recompile it instead of memory? More importantly, why did her copy get destroyed? From all I can see, the Quran in use today traces back to Uthman; therefore, how can you unequivocally prove its perfect preservation to Muhammad? IOW, why should I just simply take your word for it?

 

You say scientific miracles and no contradiction or discrepancies? The Big Bang hasn't been proven to be true; so don't count your chicks before they are hatched. Did you put in your search engines Quranic contradictions? I tried it. So, just like you can find reasons to keep from Christianity, I can find reason to keep form Islam.

 

 

so God is allknowing and jesus was not allknowing when he was on the earth, so what are you saying man??? if you believe jesus is God, then he should be allknowing all the time, beacuse jesus himself said

 

nobody knows the HOur, not even the son (Jesus) only Father GOd know it. so how can you believe jesus is GOd then he does not know the future, while his father God knows that. 2 gods and GOd jesus is not allknowing.

 

 

 

 therefore, how can you unequivocally prove its perfect preservation to Muhammad?

 

 

 i will explain it to you how. WHen we read quran we see that GOd said in the quran that he will protect quran from corruption. so now it is 50% to believe that %50 to not believe that. is there any proof that quran was preserved ? yes, you can mathematically proof that

 

Attention people

 

Real testable evidence of divine orgin of the holy quran. you can confirm it by yourself

 

Golden ratio in Nature and Quran

 

Definition

 

ka04s3.jpg

 

Nature

 

Adolf

Zeising, whose main interests were mathematics and philosophy, found the

golden ratio expressed in the arrangement of branches along the stems of plants

and of veins in leaves. He extended his research to the skeletons of animals and

the branchings of their veins and nerves, to the proportions of chemical

compounds and the geometry of crystals, even to the use of proportion in

artistic endeavors. In these phenomena he saw the golden ratio operating as a

universal law.[49] In connection with his scheme for golden-ratio-based

human body proportions, Zeising wrote in 1854 of a universal law "in which is

contained the ground-principle of all formative striving for beauty and

completeness in the realms of both nature and art, and which permeates, as a

paramount spiritual ideal, all structures, forms and proportions, whether cosmic

or individual, organic or inorganic, acoustic or optical; which finds its

fullest realization, however, in the human form."[50]

 

In 2003, Volkmar

Weiss and Harald Weiss analyzed psychometric data and theoretical considerations

and concluded that the golden ratio underlies the clock cycle of brain

waves.[51] In 2008 this was empirically confirmed by a group of

neurobiologists.[52]

 

In 2010, the journal Science reported that the

golden ratio is present at the atomic scale in the magnetic resonance of spins

in cobalt niobate crystals.[53]

 

Several researchers have proposed

connections between the golden ratio and human genome DNA.[54][55][56]Golden ratio in humans

2di0pc1.jpg

 

Golden ratio in position of

Mekka and Kaba (muslim holiest place), from North pole to Mekka, and from

Mekka to south pole

nvxa8.jpg

 

Golden ratio in Quranic verse

about Mekka

 

2a9paon.jpg

from the begining of the verse to

en of the word Mekka there is 29 letter, and from Word mekka to end of the verse

there is 18 letter.

We see clearly golden ration in nature, humans, position

of Mekka, and quranic verse about Mekka.

 

Golden ratio in Quran

 

 

In this example we see clearly nummerical miracle, between odd and even

numbers and how the correspond to sum of chapters and verses

25jjnmo.jpg

15gb8e8.jpg

24ys6rr.jpg

 

Here, we have repetetive

nummerical values from the table above

for example chapters 85 and 99 have

same nummerical value 107, we summerize all repetitive nummerical values

 

1z1wpyp.jpg

 

Here,

we have non-repetitive nummerical values, and we summerize them also

259j3pj.jpg

 

We can clearly

see golden ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values from

this table

166k5z6.jpg

 

 

 

 

what can we get from this conclusion ?

 

If you add only one more verse you to quran this nummerical miracle would be destroyed, if you remove only one verse from the quran this nummerical miracle would be destroyed. so mathematically we can prove that quran was unchanged since the time of Muhammed. and this is only small part how much mathematical miracle there are in the quran.

 

 

 

 

The Big Bang hasn't been proven to be true; so don't count your chicks before they are hatched.

 

yes it has, the problem is that you dont study science, i do study science that i why i know.

 

 

 

Did you put in your search engines Quranic contradictions? I tried it. So, just like you can find reasons to keep from Christianity, I can find reason to keep form Islam.

 

i challenge you to show me only one , hardest one wich you think is impossible to explain, and i will explain it to you.

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&nbsp;Moses never did a miracle to prove he was a prophet; besides, why wasn't the miracle of the Quran as you say sufficient to prove Muhammad a prophet? And you say Christians complicate things?

 

I never said God came in or is in 3 separated parts. You said, I said that. I said God is one, and Jesus is His word. I said God is Spirit. I said God is Holy. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit who could never die. Jesus is His word incarnated. That means the word of God made flesh which means made human with human limitations, but He was equal in nature and character to God the father so that like Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the father" But the reason you are not able to understand this is because you look through carnal eyes rather that spiritual ones.

 

 

 

 

Moses never did a miracle to prove he was a prophet;

 

what is the purpose of changing stick into the snake in front of Pharao by Moses???

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8onv4g50HJU

 

 

why wasn't the miracle of the Quran as you say sufficient to prove Muhammad a prophet? And you say Christians complicate things?

 

beacuse those people who denied quran could actually nothing about quran, nor do they know anything about its miracles. so when you dont know it you deny it. just like you dont know anything about quran, that is why you deny it.

 

 

Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit who could never die. 

 

why do you christians then depict GOd father as old man with long white beard, and next to HIm another God also in the form of a dove?

 

WHY DO YOU LIE HERE TO US ON THIS FORUM, WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO FOOL MAN???

 

Trinity%20Sunday%201.jpg

 

fATHER gOD, son God, and Holy spirit also God = 3 gods, but you say, no it is only 1 God. and you see 3 different entities. come on man, dont joke with me here, i am not stupid. :glare:

 

 

 

but He was equal in nature and character to God the father 

 

wrong, your bible and jesus deny you

 

John 14:28

...the Father is greater than I.

 

 

 

 so that like Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the father" But the reason you are not able to understand this is because you look through carnal eyes rather that spiritual ones.

 wrong again and again

 

you have missunderstood bible completly, the funny thing with you christians is that you just pick part of the verse and forget the context.

 

let see what is the context of that saying of jesus

 

 

 

7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." (John 14:7)

 

Here Jesus (pbuh) is saying that if you know me, you know God i.e. if you follow me, you are indirectly following Almighty God. Seeing God here means knowing God as we can see from the verse.

 

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." (John 14:8)

 

Here Philip is asking Jesus (pbuh) to show him God. The Bible says

 

“No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18)

 

“But," he (God) said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." (Exodus 33:20)

 

Note : The word “God” in bracket is mine.

 

Being a Jew, he knew that no man can see God and live, making such an absurd request to Jesus (pbuh) of showing the father. So Jesus (pbuh) replies

 

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9)

 

Jesus (pbuh) is saying to Phillips that he had been with him for so long and still making such an silly request of showing God, so Jesus says that “Anyone who has seen me has seen the father” meaning if you know me, you know Almighty God as well. You follow my teachings; you are following the teachings of Almighty God.

 

In context, we come to know that anyone who knows Jesus (pbuh) i.e. anyone who follows Jesus (pbuh) is indirectly following Almighty God to which we have no objection.

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