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And again you repeat yourself. I have replied to your point on two Gods at least three times in this thread. Now is a fourth time. When Jesus became man he became lower than the Angela so he could save us.

 

On your other bible verse. That is in regards to false prophets like Muhammad or people who do great works but never really try to be close to Jesus. Both think that they are serving God but instead they sin and lead others away. So Jesus sends them away.

 

 

 

he became lower than the Angela so he could save us.

 

but bible contradicts you again and again

 

Isaiah 43:11

I, even I, am the Lord; and there is no saviour but me.

 

how could jesus save you when God says there is no savior expet HIM???

 

 

 

On your other bible verse. That is in regards to false prophets like Muhammad or people who do great works but never really try to be close to Jesus. Both think that they are serving God but instead they sin and lead others away. So Jesus sends them away.

 

let analyze this 

'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

 

when did muslims prophecised, dirive out demons and preform miracles in jesus name??? NEVER

so you put this verse on muslims while it is clear that christian do these stuff

 

evidence:

 

at 43 sec he says that demon shall come out in jesus' name

 

 

are these muslims or christians????

 

that was really bad from you to put muslims in that verse while it is obvious that you christians do these stuff, not muslims.

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PropellerAds

Wrong. The founder of my religion was Jesus. Paul merely helped spread His teachings to the Gentiles ( myself among them). Jesus brought the law to completion. Baptism is circumcision brought to completion. Where as circumcision was but an outward sign of devotion to God, Baptism is both external and internal sign of devotion to God.

 

was jesus for old mosaic laws , Yes

was Paul for old mosaic laws, NO, he abolished them

 

when it comes to old mosaic laws, do you follow jesus when he commands to follow these laws and forbids to abolsih them, NOOOO

do you follow Pauls advice abolishing old laws, YEs, , yes, and yes.

 

that is why Paul is your founder of your relgion christianity and not jesus.

 

Paul spread his teachings, you say, hmmmm, jesus forbid to abolish old laws, paul abnolished them, i see how he spread jesus teaching,

 

BY DESTROYING THEM AN CREATING HIS OWN RELGION.

 

 

 Baptism is both external and internal sign of devotion to God.

 

DID JESUS said, that baptism is enough and there is no need for circumsion???

 

or did your paul said that??

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Andalusi. I grow weary of this. We have been going on since school ended. Now school begins again. We have both repeated and replied to and counter replied to each others arguements. I feel content in what I have achieved and I have strengthened my faith. But now it must end. Do you wish to end this debate?

 

nooo, are you running away from me??? 

 

when you start to give me logical explanations wich does not contradict your holy book then i will not repeat these questions.

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Circumcision was a covenant agreement between God and the Jews; the gentiles were not part of that. Do Muslim have to be circumcised? Paul says to those who would have you be circumcised they should emasculate themselves lol.

 

 

 

Circumcision was a covenant agreement between God and the Jews; the gentiles were not part of that.

 

 

if you are a follower of jesus, and God's commands you need to circumsize yourself. who said that gentiles should not cirucmsize???

 

are GOd's commands and guidence only for jews and not for the rest of the people???

 

why dont you ask instead why did God command cirucmsion, then you will know that you also need to do that, beacuse it is for health reasons. 

 

are these health advices from God only for jews and not rest of us???

 

 

 

 Do Muslim have to be circumcised?

 

yes

 

 

 

Paul says to those who would have you be circumcised they should emasculate themselves lol.

 

 

do you see åpeople now, who is the founder of christianity, jesus or paul....

 

 

you can allways hear christians say:

 

paul says this

paul says that

paul says this

paul says that

paul says this

paul says that

 

when will we hear Jesus said so and so...no paul involved. do you follow paul or jesus?????

 

Paul is irreleveant for me since he did not have same teaching as jesus. jesus was for the old laws, while paul was not for them.

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Hello my friends,

 

My name is Nabil, in case of curiosity, and i've seen some threads here that has great misinformation about certain topics regarding Christian beliefs, scirpture as well as what Islam in general believes. I am a Christian by the way, so I was hoping Andalusi would respond to me, as I see he is the most arrogant debating topics. 

 

I'll go on to say that I firmly believe Jesus is divine, crucified and rose from the dead.

 

My question is why am I wrong,

Thank you!

 

 

beacuse your bible goes against your belief and you have missunderstood bible, that is why you are wrong.

 

SO Jesus is God according to you, while jesus himself prayed to God, did he pray to himself or another god??? so two gods actually, while jesus said there is only one God.

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andalusi I don't know how you can keep debating with people who are not even here to listen to you genuinely, may Allah increase your faith. You have clearly pointed out the failure of those who do not follow Islam. 

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but bible contradicts you again and again

 

Isaiah 43:11

I, even I, am the Lord; and there is no saviour but me.

 

how could jesus save you when God says there is no savior expet HIM???

 

 

 

let analyze this

'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

 

when did muslims prophecised, dirive out demons and preform miracles in jesus name??? NEVER

so you put this verse on muslims while it is clear that christian do these stuff

 

evidence:

 

at 43 sec he says that demon shall come out in jesus' name

 

 

are these muslims or christians????

 

that was really bad from you to put muslims in that verse while it is obvious that you christians do these stuff, not muslims.

On God being savior. That is actually evidence that Jesus is God. Jesus was called savior.

 

Matthew 1:21

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

 

Since as Isaiah says only God is savior and Jesus was said to save the world from their sins, Jesus was God.

 

On the other verse, where did I say Muslims were in the warning. Look at my post. I said that the prophecy is about Muhammad, not Muslims.

 

However it is about much more than that. Lets use the man in your video as an example. Lets say that man did all sorts of great things for God. Yet he committed fornication and hurt others. He is one of the things that the prophecy warns about. Anyone who claims to follow Jesus(that man in your video) or to be sent by Him (Muhammad) yet disobeys his commands or misrepresents him are what that prophecy is about.

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 I believe that was an Abrahamic covenant. I was circumcised as a child, but I wouldn't push that on anyone, because it is part of an old covenant with the Jews and it is part of the law. It is like a marriage. When the husband dies the woman is free from the law of her husband to marry another.

 

Are there benefits to circumcision health wise? yes, but that doesn't mean one cannot keep clean without it. If I try to live my life keeping all the laws given to the Jews which they could NOT keep, then I will be judged by how well I follow those rules and laws. No thanks, it is sure to end in failure. How would I ever live my life knowing I was following all the rules good enough?

 

I believe what Jesus said that God's only laws is love Him with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. This fulfills all the law and the prophets. I believe I can only do this hid in Christ. I was a sinner, and I am a sinner saved by God's grace through faith.

 

 

 

I believe that was an Abrahamic covenant.

 

i really dont know how you christians read your holy book bible????? you say it is something for Abraham, while you bible says it is for you

 

read this

 

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.

 

so you are not included in this or what???

 

 

 It is like a marriage.

 

no it is not.

 

 

but that doesn't mean one cannot keep clean without it.

 

you can not keep clean, beacuse urine sometime drops after you urinated, and it acumaulate in the foreskin, where bacteria can grow, and you can get infections and you can infect your wife during sex.

 

 

How would I ever live my life knowing I was following all the rules good enough?

 

 

 

if it say, do circumsion, you do it, then you know that you followed the rules enough, if it say, pray 5 times a day, you pray, and you know you follow it, it say dont eat pork, you dont eat itm, and then you know you follow the rules. is this hard? no

 

 

 

I believe what Jesus said that God's only laws is love Him with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. This fulfills all the law and the prophets. I believe I can only do this hid in Christ. I was a sinner, and I am a sinner saved by God's grace through faith.

 

if that is the turth, then why would God forbid, pork, alcohol, interests, lying, killing, fornication, homosexuality

 

what about that i love jesus and i dont follow God's commandments, is that ok.

 

let me turn the table

 

what if i love my mother but i dont follow her commandemnts/rules, to not play football in the house, to not give cigarettes to my younger siblings, to not drink alochol in the house, and many other stuff. to say i love you mom and i do everything opposite she says is just empty words"i love you",

 

IF YOU LOVE SOMEONE YOU DONT GO AGAINST HIM/HER, SAME IT IS WITH GOD,  if you love god you dont go against his commandements, if you loved God you would follow these commandments wich are only good for you, God does not need that you follow it, he has no benefits from it, it is only for your own good.

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I would rather be judged by being someone who loved God with all his heart, soul and mind and his neighbor as himself than keeping old outdated laws that pertained for a certain time and for a certain people group that is totally irrelevant to me today.

If I could Love God and my neighbor in the way Jesus said, this would be the greatest victory of all time in my life. It is what I seek to do. So, do not consider me a non- seeker!

 

trust me you dont love God, if you loved God so much you would keep his commandments, and not brake everyone of them.

 

You say to your wife that you love her but you go in the disco and find a girl and have sex with her, or you say that you love your wife but you dont buy her anything nor do respect her at all.

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andalusi I don't know how you can keep debating with people who are not even here to listen to you genuinely, may Allah increase your faith. You have clearly pointed out the failure of those who do not follow Islam. 

 

maybe sometime they will use their logic, and when they start to think logically, then they will listen to me carefully.

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but alcohol was the reason to make such actions , let me give you an example

 

let say some drunk man drive a car and hits your young son, and kill him, and you say to him how could you drive like this man, how can you drive as a drunk man, he says to you, dont blame on the alcohol, blame om my driving skills. BUT, IT WAS DUE TO ALCOHOL THAT HE LOST HIS DRIVING SKILLS.

 

SHALL WE BLAME ON HIS DRIVING SKILLS OR ALCOHOL IN THIS SITUATION? SAME IT WAS WHEN YOU DRINK AND KILL SOMEONE, IT WAS DUE TO ALCOHOL. THAT IS why you are wrong. and yes alcohol make you anclean as long as it leads you to commit stupid stuff in life, and it harms you health. so how can jesus, allow something wich can kill you and not only that bible forbids alcohol. so how can Jesus allow you something to kill or harm you or others and in the same time go against old mosaic laws wich forbids alcohol.

 

 

let take another example, what if someone kill you and another man screamn at this man who killed you, and he scream, and say why did you kill innocent man with this gun, he replu, no actually, the gun did not kill him, it was the bullet, dont blame the gun, blame the bullet.

 

 

 

no he did not, he would never allow something wich will cause harm to people and go against bible itself

 

 

“Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper” (Proverbs 23:31, NIV).

 

Numbers 6:1-3

The LORD said to Moses,"Speak to the israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of dedication to the LORD as a Nazirite, they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins.

 

Proverbs 20:1

Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls. Those led astray by drink cannot be wise.

 

Judges 13:4

Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean,

 

Isaiah 5: 11 and 22

Woe to those who rise early in the morning to run after their drinks, who stay up late at night till they are inflamed with wine.

Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,

 

Luke 1:15

for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

 

can you imagine jesus going against these from old testemant???

do you really believe that jesus allowed something wich will harm people, if you believe that then know that you are deluded person.

 

can you imagine jesus in this state, a man from God, a great prophet from God, a wiseman be like this

 

yoga6.jpg

 

 

 

actually apostles understood but those who wrote the bible did not understood probabaly. bible was written long after jesus departed from earth.

On your example. It was neither the alcohol or his driving skills. It was due to his prior choice to get drunk then drive. If it was the alcohol that was guilty than we would arrest the alcohol.

 

The proverbs quote is advising people not to get drunk. Wise advice indeed. On Numbers that is for a specific group of people making a vow. Just because some Christians make vows of celibacy and poverty doesn't mean that all Christians have to. On the second proverb quote that backs up the idea of only drunkenness making one unclean. After all drinking a cup of wine doesn't cause brawls. On judges. Jesus specifically said that only what we do and say not what we eat or drink makes us unclean. On Isaiah that is also on drunkenness being bad not drinking. Only those who drink in excess hunt after alcohol in the morning or at night. On Luke. This is what my own bible says.

 

* [1:15] He will drink neither wine nor strong drink: like Samson (Jgs 13:4–5) and Samuel (1 Sm 1:11 LXX and 4QSama), John is to be consecrated by Nazirite vow and set apart for the Lord’s service.

 

That is hardly a blanket condemnation of all alcohol.

 

That picture is not one of a man who drinks occasionally. That is a drunkard. He is sinning. However it is his choice to get drunk and not the drink that makes him unclean.

 

And no a small glass of wine or a can of beer on occasion is not unhealthy.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/alcohol-full-story/

However our choice to get drunk is what makes us unclean. Just as Jesus said. After all, lets say I only drink a single glass of wine every week. That's it. I don't kill and I don't murder. I just drink a small glass and go on with my life. How has this made me unclean?

 

On the Holy Spirit. But the apostles obviously did not believe as you do. From what their disciples say they believed as modern Christians do on the trinity. They believed that the Holy Spirit was a person of the trinity not an angel.

 

Also the latest book of the bible was written in 95 AD, a mere 60 years after Jesus' death. Also in that earlier thread I was mistaken when I said that the apostles didn't write the Gospels. As this site shows, they did.

It also shows the dates in which they were written. http://www.datingthenewtestament.com/introduction.htm

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Paul did not found Christianity just as Moses and Abraham were Jews and not Muslims. Also it was not Paul who decided that circumcision was unnecessary for salvation. As Acts 15 tells us it was the Church founded by Christ and given an assurance of infallibility that decided this. Paul went to the Church with his questions and at the council of Jerusalem his questions were answered. Below I will show the evidence for this.

 

As I said earlier I am a novice. However this author is not. It is a five part series and you should read it all. He lays out the biblical basis for the leadership of Peter and by extension the Church.

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...n-thy.html?m=1

 

Now here is the Early Church Fathers who as I have said many times in this discussion were instructed my the Apostles or the Apostle's disciples.

 

Clement of Alexandria

 

"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly g.asped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

 

 

 

Tertullian

 

"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

 

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

 

 

 

The Letter of Clement to James

 

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

 

 

 

Origen

 

"f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

 

Between these two sources we can see that Jesus founded a church, led by Peter and his successors, that has the infallible ability to decide on matters of doctrine.

 

Some Protestants admit that Peter was called to lead the Church while Jesus was on earth yet deny that the authority passed on to the popes. However this idea doesn't help your case either. Peter still led the church during the council of Jerusalem so it's decision is still binding. Paul merely repeated this decision.

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On God being savior. That is actually evidence that Jesus is God. Jesus was called savior.

 

Matthew 1:21

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

 

Since as Isaiah says only God is savior and Jesus was said to save the world from their sins, Jesus was God.

 

On the other verse, where did I say Muslims were in the warning. Look at my post. I said that the prophecy is about Muhammad, not Muslims.

 

However it is about much more than that. Lets use the man in your video as an example. Lets say that man did all sorts of great things for God. Yet he committed fornication and hurt others. He is one of the things that the prophecy warns about. Anyone who claims to follow Jesus(that man in your video) or to be sent by Him (Muhammad) yet disobeys his commands or misrepresents him are what that prophecy is about.

 

 

 

On God being savior. That is actually evidence that Jesus is God. Jesus was called savior.

 

 

 

jesus was called a lot of things wich he was not.  the problem with your understand of the bible you dont think logically.

 

did jesus said about himself that he was a savior???? no , did other claimed that he was savior, yes.

 

but what did jesus said about himself being savior?

 

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

 

so imagine a savior saying "by myself i can't do anything" can he be God then? if he cant do anything without the One who sent him.

 

SO God was sent by someone , other God, and this lower God has no power.  

 

Matthew 1:21

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

 

did jesus said this about himself or did someone else said about jesus? of course someone else said about jesus, this does not mean it is true.

show me where jesus himself said he was the savior???

 

 

Since as Isaiah says only God is savior and Jesus was said to save the world from their sins, Jesus was God.

 

 

 

but jesus did not say he was savior, so how can you put jesus in that position just beacuse someone wrote it in bible.

 

 

 

 I said that the prophecy is about Muhammad, not Muslims

 

when did muhammed drove out demons, miracles in jesus name? never, so how can this be Muhammed ???

 

 

 

. Lets say that man did all sorts of great things for God. Yet he committed fornication and hurt others. He is one of the things that the prophecy warns about.

 

so you believe that those sinners made such miracles????

Edited by andalusi

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On your example. It was neither the alcohol or his driving skills. It was due to his prior choice to get drunk then drive. If it was the alcohol that was guilty than we would arrest the alcohol.

 

The proverbs quote is advising people not to get drunk. Wise advice indeed. On Numbers that is for a specific group of people making a vow. Just because some Christians make vows of celibacy and poverty doesn't mean that all Christians have to. On the second proverb quote that backs up the idea of only drunkenness making one unclean. After all drinking a cup of wine doesn't cause brawls. On judges. Jesus specifically said that only what we do and say not what we eat or drink makes us unclean. On Isaiah that is also on drunkenness being bad not drinking. Only those who drink in excess hunt after alcohol in the morning or at night. On Luke. This is what my own bible says.

 

* [1:15] He will drink neither wine nor strong drink: like Samson (Jgs 13:4–5) and Samuel (1 Sm 1:11 LXX and 4QSama), John is to be consecrated by Nazirite vow and set apart for the Lord’s service.

 

That is hardly a blanket condemnation of all alcohol.

 

That picture is not one of a man who drinks occasionally. That is a drunkard. He is sinning. However it is his choice to get drunk and not the drink that makes him unclean.

 

And no a small glass of wine or a can of beer on occasion is not unhealthy.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/alcohol-full-story/

However our choice to get drunk is what makes us unclean. Just as Jesus said. After all, lets say I only drink a single glass of wine every week. That's it. I don't kill and I don't murder. I just drink a small glass and go on with my life. How has this made me unclean?

 

On the Holy Spirit. But the apostles obviously did not believe as you do. From what their disciples say they believed as modern Christians do on the trinity. They believed that the Holy Spirit was a person of the trinity not an angel.

 

Also the latest book of the bible was written in 95 AD, a mere 60 years after Jesus' death. Also in that earlier thread I was mistaken when I said that the apostles didn't write the Gospels. As this site shows, they did.

It also shows the dates in which they were written. http://www.datingthenewtestament.com/introduction.htm

 

son, you are only following your low desires, you dont care what your bible say.

 

 

Jesus specifically said that only what we do and say not what we eat or drink makes us unclean

 

if you drink a posion to kill yourself, does this poision make you uncelan??

 

 

 

And no a small glass of wine or a can of beer on occasion is not unhealthy.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/alcohol-full-story/

 

the problem with you christians as i said before i say again, you have lost wisdom and true path in this life, that is why you dont know simple stuff from your holy book, you missunderstand everything it says.

 

how do you know it is unhealthy if you drink just a small glass, what about that it gives growth to cancer cells without realising it, even though you dont get drunk, what about that idea?

 

Cancer risk of two beers a year http://www.express.co.uk/news/health/406192/Cancer-risk-of-two-beers-a-year

 

 

However our choice to get drunk is what makes us unclean. Just as Jesus said.

 

it is like saying, it is ok to hung sexy women, naked, it is ok to kiss her naked body, she can also kiss your, BUT BUT BUT, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PENETRATE.

 

why this example, beacuse, if you think if it is ok 1 glass, i can take 2 then, someone will say, if it is ok to drink 1 or 2 glasses, i can take 3 or 4...closer and closer he come to drunkness, step by step.

 

this is great example why my relgion Islam is better than your relgion christianity, beacuse Islam forbids coming close to the sin, Islam cuts the problem in the root, while christianity allows you to come close to it, grow it , but sometimes it grows so big that 10 man can not put it out. 

 

what about this idea, you say, it is ok to drink 1 or 2 glasses, and yioung christian try it, and say, wooow this is good, i like it very much, and then he becomes alcoholic.you can't handle people's desires, but if you let them close to to sin , they will try to taste it. trust me, and maybe they will like it. and as soon as you make sins, you heart changes, and reality distorts, good becomes evil, evil becomes good. beacuse they put dirt on their hearts, that is why it is dangerous to come close to sins.

 

 

 

After all, lets say I only drink a single glass of wine every week. That's it. I don't kill and I don't murder. I just drink a small glass and go on with my life. How has this made me unclean?

 

 

 

if cancer cells grows beacuse of alcohol you drink , then it made you unclean, it made you unclean spiritually also beacuse you dont follow commandemts of your holy book. then you are against God. 

 

and let me say this also, what about your children see you two drink alcohol, 1 or 2, does not matter, when they become teenagers, they think, "if father can, so can we, what the hell...."

 

 

 

On the Holy Spirit. But the apostles obviously did not believe as you do. From what their disciples say they believed as modern Christians do on the trinity. They believed that the Holy Spirit was a person of the trinity not an angel.

 

 

 

you cant rely on bible what apostles believe, beacuse writers of the bible were not apostles.

 

was luke an apostle??? tell us

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Paul did not found Christianity just as Moses and Abraham were Jews and not Muslims. Also it was not Paul who decided that circumcision was unnecessary for salvation. As Acts 15 tells us it was the Church founded by Christ and given an assurance of infallibility that decided this. Paul went to the Church with his questions and at the council of Jerusalem his questions were answered. Below I will show the evidence for this.

 

 

 

does not matter who abolished it, when jesus forbade to be abolished, end of the story.

 

 

Paul did not found Christianity just as Moses and Abraham were Jews and not Muslims

 

Abraham was not a jew, word jew comes from the name Judah from one of Abraham's offsprings.

 How can Abraham be a jew when Torah was revealed after abraham??

 

God says in the Quran:

Quran 3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; he was a Muslim, wholly devoted to God. And he certainly was not amongst those who associate others with Allah in His divinity.

 

never did bible say that Abraham was a jew.

 

 

from a muslim christian dialogue

 

 

C. How can you say that Abraham was a Muslim? He is known as a Jew!

 

M. A Jew? Who told you that?

 

C. We are taught that. The Bible must confirm it, too.

 

M. Can you show me where in the Bible it says that he is a Jew?

 

If you can’t find it easily, let me help you.

 

Read Genesis 11:31.

 

C. “And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his

son’s son, and Sarah his daughter-in-law, (Abram’s wife) and

they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into

the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran and dwelt there.”

 

M. So Abraham was born in Ur of Chaldees and could not have

been a Jew. Firstly, Ur of Chaldees was in Mesopotamia, which is

now a part of Iraq. He was then more an Arab than a Jew.

 

Secondly the name Jew came after the existence of Judah, the

great-grandson of Abraham. Read further, Genesis 12:4 & 5.

 

C. “ . . . And Abram was seventy and five years old when he

departed out of Haran.... and into the land of Canaan they

came.”

 

M. So Abraham emigrated to Canaan at the age of seventy-five

years and the Bible clearly mentions that he was there as a

stranger in Genesis 17:8: “And I will give unto thee, and to thy

seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land

of Canaan for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Read also Genesis 14:13

 

C. “And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the

Hebrew;”

 

M. Can you see? The Bible calls Abraham a Hebrew and not a

Jew. Hebrew means a man from the other side of the Euphrates.

It also means pertaining to Eber, a descendant of Shem. Read in

Genesis 32:28 what happened to the name Jacob after wrestling

with an angel.

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If I told my family they shouldn't have wine with their meals, they would look at me like I was from the moon.

 

why dont you show bible verse to them wich prophibits wine? and then you explain why God forbade alcohol, beacuse it harms people in different ways like violence, rape, killing, loss of money, cancer, car accidents....is this not reason to prohibit it, IT WOULD BE REALLY STRANGE THAT GOD ALLOW SOMETHING LIKE ALCOHOL WICH CREATES SO MUCH EVIL.

 

God does not forbid stuff without reason, that would not be logical. when God forbids or commands somthing is beacuse of a reason, not for joking or play with people.

 

Judges 13:4

Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean

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Who knows the desires of humans the most? Our Creator. Science proofs that alcohol can have benefits which Allah also told us many years ago. But he warned us that the small benefit in them is not like the great harm. So why would you touch something that has more harm than good? 

 

They ask you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is beyond your needs." Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought." (2:219)

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 I was born and raised into an Italian family. If I told my family they shouldn't have wine with their meals, they would look at me like I was from the moon.

And Allah warns us against following our family traditions. People looked at Jesus funny when he started talking about God but that didn't prevent him from carrying out his mission. If we followed our parents all the time we would be lost. 

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why dont you show bible verse to them wich prophibits wine? and then you explain why God forbade alcohol, beacuse it harms people in different ways like violence, rape, killing, loss of money, cancer, car accidents....is this not reason to prohibit it, IT WOULD BE REALLY STRANGE THAT GOD ALLOW SOMETHING LIKE ALCOHOL WICH CREATES SO MUCH EVIL.

 

God does not forbid stuff without reason, that would not be logical. when God forbids or commands somthing is beacuse of a reason, not for joking or play with people.

 

Judges 13:4

Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean

It is not wine or beer which causes all those things. It is the fallen nature of man. Men may kill backside they are drunk, but then they chose to get drunk in the first place. You have quoted that verse out of context. Here is the context.

 

Judges 13:3-5

English Standard Version (ESV)

3 And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. 4 Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, 5 for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save israel from the hand of the Philistines.”

 

An angel is telling Samson's mother that her son shall be a Nazirite and not drink. That is like saying because priests make vows of celibacy that all Christians should be celibate. You are misquoting scripture.

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does not matter who abolished it, when jesus forbade to be abolished, end of the story.

 

 

Abraham was not a jew, word jew comes from the name Judah from one of Abraham's offsprings.

How can Abraham be a jew when Torah was revealed after abraham??

 

God says in the Quran:

Quran 3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; he was a Muslim, wholly devoted to God. And he certainly was not amongst those who associate others with Allah in His divinity.

 

never did bible say that Abraham was a jew.

 

 

from a muslim christian dialogue

 

 

C. How can you say that Abraham was a Muslim? He is known as a Jew!

 

M. A Jew? Who told you that?

 

C. We are taught that. The Bible must confirm it, too.

 

M. Can you show me where in the Bible it says that he is a Jew?

 

If you can’t find it easily, let me help you.

 

Read Genesis 11:31.

 

C. “And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his

son’s son, and Sarah his daughter-in-law, (Abram’s wife) and

they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into

the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran and dwelt there.”

 

M. So Abraham was born in Ur of Chaldees and could not have

been a Jew. Firstly, Ur of Chaldees was in Mesopotamia, which is

now a part of Iraq. He was then more an Arab than a Jew.

 

Secondly the name Jew came after the existence of Judah, the

great-grandson of Abraham. Read further, Genesis 12:4 & 5.

 

C. “ . . . And Abram was seventy and five years old when he

departed out of Haran.... and into the land of Canaan they

came.”

 

M. So Abraham emigrated to Canaan at the age of seventy-five

years and the Bible clearly mentions that he was there as a

stranger in Genesis 17:8: “And I will give unto thee, and to thy

seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land

of Canaan for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Read also Genesis 14:13

 

C. “And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the

Hebrew;”

 

M. Can you see? The Bible calls Abraham a Hebrew and not a

Jew. Hebrew means a man from the other side of the Euphrates.

It also means pertaining to Eber, a descendant of Shem. Read in

Genesis 32:28 what happened to the name Jacob after wrestling

with an angel.

The Church did not say that circumcision was abolished. They said it was brought to completion in baptism. Since Jesus said they would be infallible on these issues, then Jesus gives his approval to the Church's teachings.

 

On Abraham. That is an error on my part then. However he was not a Muslim beyond submission to God. The Quran was not around then either.

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son, you are only following your low desires, you dont care what your bible say.

 

 

if you drink a posion to kill yourself, does this poision make you uncelan??

 

how do you know it is unhealthy if you drink just a small glass, what about that it gives growth to cancer cells without realising it, even though you dont get drunk, what about that idea?

Cancer risk of two beers a year http://www.express.co.uk/news/health/406192/Cancer-risk-of-two-beers-a-year

 

 

it is like saying, it is ok to hung sexy women, naked, it is ok to kiss her naked body, she can also kiss your, BUT BUT BUT, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PENETRATE.

 

why this example, beacuse, if you think if it is ok 1 glass, i can take 2 then, someone will say, if it is ok to drink 1 or 2 glasses, i can take 3 or 4...closer and closer he come to drunkness, step by step.

 

this is great example why my relgion Islam is better than your relgion christianity, beacuse Islam forbids coming close to the sin, Islam cuts the problem in the root, while christianity allows you to come close to it, grow it , but sometimes it grows so big that 10 man can not put it out.

 

what about this idea, you say, it is ok to drink 1 or 2 glasses, and yioung christian try it, and say, wooow this is good, i like it very much, and then he becomes alcoholic.you can't handle people's desires, but if you let them close to to sin , they will try to taste it. trust me, and maybe they will like it. and as soon as you make sins, you heart changes, and reality distorts, good becomes evil, evil becomes good. beacuse they put dirt on their hearts, that is why it is dangerous to come close to sins.

 

 

 

if cancer cells grows beacuse of alcohol you drink , then it made you unclean, it made you unclean spiritually also beacuse you dont follow commandemts of your holy book. then you are against God.

 

and let me say this also, what about your children see you two drink alcohol, 1 or 2, does not matter, when they become teenagers, they think, "if father can, so can we, what the hell...."

 

 

 

you cant rely on bible what apostles believe, beacuse writers of the bible were not apostles.

 

was luke an apostle??? tell us

Trust me Andalusi. Alcohol is not a low desire I struggle with. I hate the taste and since God forbids drunkenness I am unlikely to drink much beyond large holidays.

 

On the poison. No it doesn't. Think logically. Did the poison force itself down my throat? No it was I who drank the poison. Thus it is my action which makes me unclean.

 

Here is the study your link mentions.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/healthyliving/alcohol/alcohol-and-cancer

 

It says that to drink one or two cups a day minimizes the risk. Also it says only 4% of cases are by alcohol. We don't know how many of the cancer people drank to get drunk or drank more than 1 or 2.

 

Your comparing lust to one or two alcohols? In your analogy they have still sinned greatly. Penetration or not. Drinking a cup of alcohol is not a great sin. Getting drunk is.

 

God is much greater than 10 men. Should we have a problem with something Jesus tells us.

 

Temptations and Trespasses

7"Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! 8"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

 

Should I think alcohol might cause me to sin I am not to drink it. And if it does cause me to sin I am to repent of my sin and as Jesus said "Go and sin no more."

 

I'm getting the feeling you didn't read my link.

 

Here is some evidence for authorship from this site

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6976

 

St. Matthew is identified with the tax collector called as an Apostle (Mt 9:9-13). Papias again attests to the saint's authorship and indicates that he was the first to compile a collection of Jesus' sayings in the Aramaic language. For this reason, the Gospel of Matthew, at least in a very basic form in Aramaic, is considered the first Gospel and placed first in the New Testament, although the Gospel of Mark is probably the first in a completed form. St. Irenaeus and Origen (d. 253) again support this authorship. Nevertheless, some scholars doubt the saint's direct authorship because we only have the Greek version, not the Aramaic, and no citations are made from the Aramaic version in Church literature. The version of the Gospel we have was probably written between 70-80.

 

St. Luke, the beloved physician and disciple of St. Paul (Col 4:14), has consistently been recognized in Christian tradition as the author of the third Gospel, beginning with St. Irenaeus, Tertullian (d. 220) and Clement of Alexandria. The Gospel [has long been assumed to have been] written about 70-80.

 

St. Irenaeus identified the author of the fourth Gospel as St. John the Apostle. He does so based on the instruction of his teacher, St. Polycarp (d. 155), who himself was a disciple of St. John. Throughout this Gospel, the numerous details indicate the author was an eyewitness. Also scholars generally agree that "the beloved disciple" mentioned in the Gospel is St. John. This Gospel was written probably about 80-90.

 

Finally since Mark is so similar to Matthew we can also assume it is correct.

 

You are correct that St. Luke was not an apostle. However he lived in the apostolic era and knew the apostles. So his testimony is accurate.

 

So we have an accurate book written by the apostles contemporary, two books written by apostles and an almost word for word copy of one of the apostolic books. Use logic. If the gospels say something about the Holy Spirit and if three are primary sources and one a copy of one of the others than that view of the Holy Spirit must be correct.

 

The thing is you completely ignored my point. I gave quotes from the disciples of the apostles. Yet you say the bible authors didn't know what the apostles taught. Where is the logic in this? Tell me why the early church fathers would be incorrect.

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jesus was called a lot of things wich he was not. the problem with your understand of the bible you dont think logically.

 

did jesus said about himself that he was a savior???? no , did other claimed that he was savior, yes.

 

but what did jesus said about himself being savior?

 

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

 

so imagine a savior saying "by myself i can't do anything" can he be God then? if he cant do anything without the One who sent him.

 

SO God was sent by someone , other God, and this lower God has no power.

 

Matthew 1:21

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

 

did jesus said this about himself or did someone else said about jesus? of course someone else said about jesus, this does not mean it is true.

show me where jesus himself said he was the savior???

 

 

but jesus did not say he was savior, so how can you put jesus in that position just beacuse someone wrote it in bible.

 

 

 

when did muhammed drove out demons, miracles in jesus name? never, so how can this be Muhammed ???

 

 

 

so you believe that those sinners made such miracles????

Andalusi. An angel said this about Jesus. He appeared on Joseph's dream and told him this. I am assuming that an angel is correct.

 

On your objection. I have replied to that already. I will post it again though. Now think logically and tell me how this is incorrect.

 

CARM: Jesus was fulfilling his ministry completely as a man. He was made under the law (Gal. 4:4) and operated under the law. He fulfilled his ministry having emptied himself (Phil. 2:5-8) and was completely subject to the Father (Luke 22:42). Therefore, since he was under obligation to fulfill the law (which included complete dependence upon the Father), and since he had emptied himself and was working in cooperation with human limitations, he would naturally do nothing of himself. Jesus did not come to do his own will, but the will of the Father. "Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done, ' (Luke 22:42). 'I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 5:30).

 

Here Jesus says he is savior.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

 

From what you have said Muhammad claimed to come and prophesy in the name of Jesus.

 

And no sinners are not the cause of miracles. God is. He may use sinners for His purpose but that does not mean that they do all as they should. Jesus is warning them as well as false prophets of what awaits them.

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Here Jesus says he is savior.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

Jesus or the anonymous John ?

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Jesus or the anonymous John ?

Here is the context. Jesus did say it.

 

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

 

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

 

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

 

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

 

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

 

10 “You are israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

 

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

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FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:

            Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah's messenger we said, "Oh Allah's messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?"  The prophet said, "Do you really do that?  It is better for you not to do it.  No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence."

 

 

FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:

            Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them.  So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus.  The prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection".

            Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, "No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.""

 

 

FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3432

            Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them.  Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists.  Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:  "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).

 

 

Muhammed allowed rape of slaves?

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