Jump to content
Islamic Forum
andalusi

Muslim-Christian Debate, Here

Recommended Posts

However, I find it quite interesting that until the Council of Trent in 1546 (according to all Catholic scholars), the Bible was not formally set in stone with regards the books and makeup. It is also AFTER the Protestant Reformation.

 

Hi Nightingale how are you?

 

I think you’ll find according to the council documents that the bible was canonized at the council of Hippo in AD 393 then reaffirmed at the council Carthage in AD 397 and the Council of Trent in AD 1546.

 

The bible canon had been sealed and finalized at the council of Hippo. The other councils were mere reaffirmations in response to heresies and other factors.

 

All the best...Salam :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

I would like to add something to the cannon argument also. There is a document before the cannon was finalized at Hippo. It is called the Muratorian Canon. The following below is from the Catholic Encyclopedia on it.

 

Also called the Muratorian Fragment, after the name of the discoverer and first editor, L. A. Muratori (in the "Antiquitates italicae", III, Milan, 1740, 851 sq.), the oldest known canon or list of books of the New Testament. The manuscript containing the canon originally belonged to Bobbio and is now in the Bibliotheca Ambrosiana at Milan (Cod. J 101 sup.). Written in the eighth century, it plainly shows the uncultured Latin of that time. The fragment is of the highest importance for the history of the Biblical canon. It was written in Rome itself or in its environs about 180-200; probably the original was in Greek, from which it was translated into Latin. This Latin text is preserved solely in the manuscript of the Ambrosiana. A few sentences of the Muratorian Canon are preserved in some other manuscripts, especially in codices of St. Paul's Epistles in Monte Cassino. The canon consists of no mere list of the Scriptures, but of a survey, which supplies at the same time historical and other information regarding each book. The beginning is missing; the preserved text begins with the last line concerning the second Gospel and the notices, preserved entire, concerning the third and fourth Gospels. Then there are mentioned: The Acts, St. Paul's Epistles (including those to Philemon, Titus and Timothy; the spurious ones to the Laodiceans and Alexandrians are rejected); furthermore, the Epistle of St. Jude and two Epistles of St. John; among the Scriptures which "in catholica habentur", are cited the "Sapientia ab amicis Salomonis in honorem ipsius scripta", as well as the Apocalypses of St. John and St. Peter, but with the remark that some will not allow the latter to be read in the church. Then mention is made of the Pastor of Hermas, which may be read anywhere but not in the divine service; and, finally, there are rejected false Scriptures, which were used by heretics. In consequence of the barbarous Latin there is no complete understanding of the correct meaning of some of the sentences. As to the author, many conjectures were made (Papias, Hegesippus, Caius of Rome, Hippolytus of Rome, Rhodon, Melito of Sardis were proposed); but no well founded hypothesis has been adduced up to the present.

 

Deus benedicat

 

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.

Edited by workingman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now for other verses where Jesus clames to be God are as followes St. Matthew 4:7, St Luke 4:12 this is where satan tempts Jesus. St. Matthew 5:21-44 these verses Jesus makes himself equal to God by saying you heard it said.....but I say to you..... Jesus is seting his law above God so if he is only a prophet who is he to set his law above God's law that he gave to the jews. St. John 6:38 is another example where Jesus said he came down from heaven. You can also parallel St. John 8:12 and 1John 1:5. These are but a few verses of many. Please take the time to look them up with a valid translation.

 

Deus benedicat

 

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.

 

 

 

God said in bible

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

what are you talking about

 

Bible

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God

 

but people have seen Jesus, that is why jesus is not God.

 

 

Bible

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

 

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact wink.gif

 

If jesus was God, what kind of God is this

 

God that does nor know stuff?

 

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

What kind of God is this who can do anything?

 

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

 

Jesus was a man acredited by God, not that he is God?

 

Acts 2:22 "Men of israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

 

if jesus was God, what kind of God is jesus when he need to be acredited by another God biggrin.gif this is your christian comedy

 

Jesus God have another God???? 2 Gods?

 

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

and jesus himself said this

 

Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.

 

What kind of God prays to another God?

 

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed

 

this is evidence from your own bible that jesus was not God

 

 

 

why dont you post verses here , why do we need to go to read bible for ourselves to see whwt you are talking about, if i as muslim can search and post verses from bible so can you as christians, i have no time to check them all if you are going to discuss with me like that.

 

 

 

 

Jesus clames to be God are as followes St. Matthew 4:7

 

absolutly not, let have look at it so you can clearly see that it does not mean that jesus is God.

 

<< Matthew 4:6-7 >>

 

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He(God) will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

 

let me turn the table now, what if you find holy book where it says , if someone attack a believer God will immidiately protect him

 

and you come to me and say, what if i attack you now to see if that is true, if God really shall help you and maybe he kill me, and i say "'Do not put the Lord your God to the test"

 

does that mean that i am God or that you shall not test God be provoking him to see if that is the truth what is written in the book.

 

you take evidence from that jesus is god, but you miss such evidence that he is not.

 

Bible

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

 

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact

 

If jesus is God, how can God have another God, when jesus said there is 1 God.

 

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

man your belief is illogical...maybe some day you will realise that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's obvious that the Koran and the Bible refer to different Jesus', as the two are certainly not the same. When I speak of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I am of course as a Christian refering to the Biblical account described throughout the old and new testaments.

 

 

 

 

 

As I stated, we can argue each others points on an interlectual basis until the day we die, however the Gospel is a spiritual matter, which is why I see debating such issues as 1700 or 7000 (google is both yours and mine freind!) is a waste of both our time.

 

 

You seem to be agreeing that Jesus was divine? if this is the case then yes I agree with you.

I happen however to believe quite simply that the word was God as John 1:1 states, and all this makes sense when you read the Jewish reaction to Jesus' prolcamation regarding being the great I Am in John Chapter 8.

 

It's obvious that the Koran and the Bible refer to different Jesus', as the two are certainly not the same. When I speak of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I am of course as a Christian refering to the Biblical account described throughout the old and new testaments.

 

no it is same jesus, but our interpretations who jesus was is different.

 

God informed us that he gave jesus a book called Gospel(Indjeel), so we want that book, gospel of jesus, not gospel of mark or luke.

 

 

 

however the Gospel is a spiritual matter,

 

but it does not matter what it is it still contanis errors, made by humans, (not by god or jesus)

 

how can you believe that God is a barber riding young baby girl angels? these are spiritual matters but it has even worse spritual defects, just thinking God as barber who shave people's legs. you cant find such stupidity even in horror or comedy movies.

 

 

You seem to be agreeing that Jesus was divine? if this is the case then yes I agree with you.

 

no he is not divine, he is only one of the mightest messangers from God, who preformed miracles as evidence of his prophethood.

 

 

I happen however to believe quite simply that the word was God as John 1:1 states, and all this makes sense when you read the Jewish reaction to Jesus' prolcamation regarding being the great I Am in John Chapter 8.

 

that is absolutly no proof that he is God, i can also say "I am", or "i am andalusi" or "i am a believer"

 

why dont you read context and see what really happened, jesus did not even finished his sentence and jews tried to stone him,

 

so if tried to say I am.....but did not finished his sentecen, he could easly say, "i am only servant of God"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can you imagine God being a little helpless baby in poo, his mother wash his butt, when he grows, he eats and go to toilet

Alex+bajsar.jpg

 

and when he is 33 years old, God is humiliated half naked on the cross and killed

Jesus-Christ-Crusifixion.jpg

 

 

what kind of God is that, who dies...

 

even though God clearly say "I AM NOT MAN" you still claim jesus is God. while jesus never said, i am God or worship me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no he is not divine, he is only one of the mightest messangers from God, who preformed miracles as evidence of his prophethood.

 

Right, well that's pretty clear that you believe in a different Jesus to me. There should be no argument here, however from experiance the majority of Muslims I've met in the past have tried to attract me to thier faith by stating that they do indeed believe in the same Jesus - I put it to you that these people are being a tadd deceptive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, well that's pretty clear that you believe in a different Jesus to me. There should be no argument here, however from experiance the majority of Muslims I've met in the past have tried to attract me to thier faith by stating that they do indeed believe in the same Jesus - I put it to you that these people are being a tadd deceptive.

 

let see what quran say about it

 

God talk about Jesus in Quran:

 

"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).

 

Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

 

He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

 

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65

 

3:49 He will send him as a messenger to the Children of israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I will make the shape of a bird for you out of clay, then breathe into it and, with God’s permission, it will become a real bird; I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life with God’s permission; I will tell you what you may eat and what you may store up in your houses. There truly is a sign for you in this, if you are believers.

 

so i dont think so that it is different jesus, it is only different interpretation of who jesuswas, christian say son of God and God, while muslims say he was prophet from God like other prophets before him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I happen however to believe quite simply that the word was God as John 1:1 states, and all this makes sense when you read the Jewish reaction to Jesus' prolcamation regarding being the great I Am in John Chapter 8.

 

Did Jesus Claim to be God when he said i am ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi andalusi,

 

We Catholics do not base our faith solely on the bible. Just as equally important we also base our faith on oral tradition. Here are some references that clearly state Jesus is God.

 

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans Address (c. 110 AD)

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in

the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, His only Son: to

the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God,

by the will of Him that has willed everything which is: to the Church also

which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans ... To

those who are united in flesh and in spirit by every commandment of His,

who are filled with the grace of God without wavering, and who are filtered

clear of every foreign stain, I wish an unalloyed joy in Jesus Christ, our

God.

 

St. Melito of Sardes, Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai 13 (c. 177 AD)

“The activities of Christ after His Baptism, and especially His miracles,

gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh.

Being God and likewise perfect man, He gave positive indications of His

two natures: of His Deity, by the miracles during the three years following

after His Baptism; of His humanity, in the thirty years which came before

His Baptism, during which, by reason of His condition according to the

flesh, he concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God

existing before the ages.”

 

These and others like it are just as important as the bible as faithful witnesses to divine revelation. It is very similar to the hadiths and their importance in helping to understand the Quran.

 

I know this is difficult for you to accept, I just wanted to help you understand the Catholic faith. The reason why we do not accept your interpretation is because your approach is fallible, meaning you can make mistakes just like anyone else including myself in interpreting scripture. Only the bishops in communion with the pope can make authentic interpretations in dealing with doctrines without error because they descend from a line of authority, the “apostolic succession” which is a divine institution, instituted by Christ Himself.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I know this is difficult for you to accept, I just wanted to help you understand the Catholic faith. The reason why we do not accept your interpretation is because your approach is fallible, meaning you can make mistakes just like anyone else including myself in interpreting scripture. Only the bishops in communion with the pope can make authentic interpretations in dealing with doctrines without error because they descend from a line of authority, the “apostolic succession” which is a divine institution, instituted by Christ Himself.

 

Salam.

 

See, this is where I have an issue with the Catholic church. My brother is Catholic, and I'm sorry but bishops and even popes are nothing more than humans themselves. They are fallible, if you want proof, just look at history. They do make errors, which is why they have had to change doctrine in the past. So saying that they interpret without error because of apostolic succession is, to my mind...foolish. I know that is what you believe, but I would not be able to do so.

 

I consider it idolatry because the pope becomes the focus of God's word, which is not supposed to be the case (in my belief). Now, there have been several popes that are great people, but I still would treat them as good people, but they are not more than that. There have been many popes that have been in my mind "evil" as well.

 

Nothing against anyone personally, but as I said before...my grandmother used to tutor a young man in theology for him to get through seminary or whatever. After he became ordained as a priest, he told her he no longer needed her to teach him about the Bible or anything because as a priest he automatically knew more than her. He then later became a bishop. So I'm supposed to listen to him when he couldn't figure out how to interpret the Bible on his own before?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi andalusi,

 

We Catholics do not base our faith solely on the bible. Just as equally important we also base our faith on oral tradition. Here are some references that clearly state Jesus is God.

 

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans Address (c. 110 AD)

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in

the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, His only Son: to

the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God,

by the will of Him that has willed everything which is: to the Church also

which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans ... To

those who are united in flesh and in spirit by every commandment of His,

who are filled with the grace of God without wavering, and who are filtered

clear of every foreign stain, I wish an unalloyed joy in Jesus Christ, our

God.

 

St. Melito of Sardes, Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai 13 (c. 177 AD)

“The activities of Christ after His Baptism, and especially His miracles,

gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh.

Being God and likewise perfect man, He gave positive indications of His

two natures: of His Deity, by the miracles during the three years following

after His Baptism; of His humanity, in the thirty years which came before

His Baptism, during which, by reason of His condition according to the

flesh, he concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God

existing before the ages.”

 

These and others like it are just as important as the bible as faithful witnesses to divine revelation. It is very similar to the hadiths and their importance in helping to understand the Quran.

 

I know this is difficult for you to accept, I just wanted to help you understand the Catholic faith. The reason why we do not accept your interpretation is because your approach is fallible, meaning you can make mistakes just like anyone else including myself in interpreting scripture. Only the bishops in communion with the pope can make authentic interpretations in dealing with doctrines without error because they descend from a line of authority, the “apostolic succession” which is a divine institution, instituted by Christ Himself.

 

Salam.

 

 

unbelieveable, you prefer statements from some St. Melito of Sardes and St. Ignatius of Antioch over Jesus statements and God's statements, unbelievable.

 

imagine, Muhammed say i am man, but we say "some people 150 years after Muhammed's death said that Muhamemd was God, so let worship him....."

 

i cant believe my eyes what i have read right now, no wonder why God call you christian in quran as delued people who need guidence.

 

Do you prefer more St. Melito of Sardes and St. Ignatius of Antioch than Bible's, God's and jesus statements ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great thread to follow! As an atheist, I could easily jump in, but I feel you are all equally deluded. All religions we know about, from the beginning of recorded history, took time to develop, and scholars have noted contradictions in almost all so-called "Holy Texts." Now, all true believers find ways to brush them aside and also find ways to adopt the understanding that they like the most. You Muslims should admit that this is very much the case with Islam, and not just dismiss those who believe and follow a different interpretation as "wrong." Bin Laden and his like ARE following the Qur'an. And, if you don't like what he did, in the name of his god and the name of Islam, at least acknowledge his motivation. Your religion has caused as much evil as Christianity, especially in recent times!

Edited by Padre5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God said in bible

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

what are you talking about

 

Bible

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God

 

but people have seen Jesus, that is why jesus is not God.

 

 

Bible

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

 

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact wink.gif

 

If jesus was God, what kind of God is this

 

God that does nor know stuff?

 

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

What kind of God is this who can do anything?

 

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

 

Jesus was a man acredited by God, not that he is God?

 

Acts 2:22 "Men of israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

 

if jesus was God, what kind of God is jesus when he need to be acredited by another God biggrin.gif this is your christian comedy

 

Jesus God have another God???? 2 Gods?

 

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

and jesus himself said this

 

Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.

 

What kind of God prays to another God?

 

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed

 

this is evidence from your own bible that jesus was not God

 

 

 

why dont you post verses here , why do we need to go to read bible for ourselves to see whwt you are talking about, if i as muslim can search and post verses from bible so can you as christians, i have no time to check them all if you are going to discuss with me like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

absolutly not, let have look at it so you can clearly see that it does not mean that jesus is God.

 

<< Matthew 4:6-7 >>

 

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He(God) will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

 

let me turn the table now, what if you find holy book where it says , if someone attack a believer God will immidiately protect him

 

and you come to me and say, what if i attack you now to see if that is true, if God really shall help you and maybe he kill me, and i say "'Do not put the Lord your God to the test"

 

does that mean that i am God or that you shall not test God be provoking him to see if that is the truth what is written in the book.

 

you take evidence from that jesus is god, but you miss such evidence that he is not.

 

Bible

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

 

 

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact

 

If jesus is God, how can God have another God, when jesus said there is 1 God.

 

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

man your belief is illogical...maybe some day you will realise that.

 

I see you are still using a ruddy translation. Of course you see it as illogical as your heart has been hardend just like the pharaoh in Exodus. As far as me posting the verses I can put out pages of it. You would not bother to fully research them though as I have done this before and you maybe will adress one or two. So why should I bother with multiple post of verses. I spose it is not much different than me wasting my time with hours of youtube videos though from someone who clearly does not understan the Bible. Let alone properly. Now that my little rant is over lets get down to business.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[at]Padre5

 

Please keep on topic. Feel free to start a new, separate topic to discuss whatever you feel like discussing, but not here please. Going off-topic is a violation of IF rules, and is not fair to the topic starter.

Thank you for helping us better organize IF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now lets look at John 1:18 you clearly do not understan the verse with your illogical mind so let me illuminate it for you. :)

 

Ver. 18. No man hath seen God. No mortal in this life by a perfect union and enjoyment of him. Nor can any creature perfectly comprehend his infinite greatness: none but his only begotten divine Son, who is in the bosom of his Father, not only by an union of grace, but by an union and unity of substance and nature; of which Christ said, (John xiv. 11.) I am in the Father, and the Father in me. (Witham)

 

Now for 1Timothy 2:5 you need to also include verse 6 to understand. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: [6] Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

 

Ver. 5-6. One mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: who gave himself a redemption for all. Take all these words together, and we may easily understand in what sense the apostle calls our Saviour Christ, the one or only mediator; that is, he is the only mediator, who at the same time is our Redeemer; the only mediator who could mediate betwixt God, the person offended by sin, and men the offenders; the only mediator who reconciled God to mankind by his incarnation and death, by the infinite price of his blood, by his own merits, independently of the merits of any other. All Catholics allow that the dignity and office of mediator in this sense belongs only to our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, made man to save us. The sense then of this place is, that as there is but one God, who created all, so there is but one mediator, who redeemed all. But yet the name of mediator is not so appropriated to Christ, but that in an inferior and different sense the Angels and saints in heaven, and even men on earth, who pray to God for the salvation of others, may be called mediators, intercessors, or advocates; and we may apply ourselves to them to pray, intercede, and mediate for us, without any injury to Christ, since we acknowledge that all their intercession and mediation is always grounded on the merits of Christ, our Redeemer. The same word for mediator, in the Greek as well as in the Latin, is given to Moses, God's servant. (Galatians iii. 19.) See also Deuteronomy v. 5. The words of our Saviour himself, (Matthew xxiii.) taken according to the letter, contain an express prohibition of being called masters, or fathers; and this reason is given, because all men have one Father in heaven, and because Christians have one master, Christ. Yet no one can justly pretend from thence, that in a different sense, a man may not be called father or master, without any injury to God, or to Christ. (Witham) --- Christ is the one and only mediator of redemption; who gave himself, as the apostle writes, a redemption for all. He is also the only mediator, who stands in need of no other to recommend his petitions to the Father. But this is not against our seeking the prayers and intercessions, as well of the faithful upon earth, as of the saints and Angels in heaven, for obtaining mercy, grace, and salvation, through Jesus Christ. As St. Paul himself often desired the help of the prayers of the faithful, without any injury to the mediatorship of Jesus Christ. (Challoner) --- If there be other mediators among the Angels and saints, they are only so in subordination to the first[Christ], who by themselves have no right to mediation or favours, and who cannot demand them but through the merits of him[Christ] who is our only essential mediator. (Estius, Menochius, &c.) Consult Judges iii. 9; 2 Esdras ix. 17; Acts vii. 35. --- A redemption for all. Not only for the predestinated, not only for the just, not only for the faithful, but for all Gentiles and infidels: and therefore he says again, (chap. iv. 10.) that Christ is the Saviour of all men, and especially of the faithful. See St. Augustine[1] and St. Chrysostom.[2] (Witham)

 

 

Now as for what you adress in St Matthew. You will never understand this till you can understand the Holy Trinity. And the only way you will appear to understand that is through a miracle. As to the other verses you posted I have adressed them before I am sure so I will not adress them again as my answer to you was "illogical" so why bother.

 

Now answer me this friend. How are you saved. Your good works alone will not save you. So now please read the article below and tell me how you are saved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BIBLE SAYS FAITH AND WORKS NEEDED FOR SALVATION

Sal Ciresi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

During the Protestant Reformation in the early 1500s, a familiar term regarding salvation was "sola fide," Latin for "by faith alone." The reformers, at that time, accused the Catholic Church of departing from the "simple purity of the Gospel" of Jesus Christ. They stated it was faith alone, without works of any kind, that brought a believer to eternal life. They defined this faith as "the confidence of man, associated with the certainty of salvation, because the merciful Father will forgive sins because of Christ's sake."

This view of salvation is a crucial issue because it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches that we are not saved by faith alone. The Church has taught this since 30 A.D. as part of the Divine Revelation. The truth of the Catholic Church's teaching can be demonstrated from Sacred Scripture alone.

All who claim the title "Christian" will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.

If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word "faith," we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase "faith alone" is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.

The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God's truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it's certainly an attention grabber.

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was "born again" it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by "remaining in Him" (John 15:1-11).

Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a "waiver" that exempts them from these verses.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was "declared righteous" before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by "believing" faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith "working in love" (Galatians 5:6). Isn't this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by "works of law" (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He's condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn't justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham's life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God's providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he's "declared righteous" (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.

The Catholic Church has never taught we "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can't earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).

The reformer's position cannot be reconciled with the Bible. That is why the Catholic Church has taught otherwise for over 1,960 years.

Where does our assistance come from to reach our heavenly destination? Philippians 4:13 says it all, "I can do all things in Him who strengthens me."

(Sal Ciresi has lectured on apologetics in the diocese of Arlington, VA and has resided in Northern Virginia since his discharge from the Marine Corps in 1991.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Provided Courtesy of:

Eternal Word Television Network

5817 Old Leeds Road

Irondale, AL 35210

www.ewtn.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't mean to barge in here but a curiosity struck me today....

 

Romans kept masses of paperwork as did the Pharisees and Jewish scholars of the day. There is a Jewish scholar who documents Jesus (pbuh) but there is no actual documentation of a crucifixion even though there is documentation of an uprising around the same time period....

 

Also while I am on this tangent what is the earliest anyone can trace back the use of the crucifix as a symbol of Christianity because if I remember my Christian history as well as I think the first symbol of early Christianity was the fish not the cross and was around for a considerable number of years.

 

why is it that in the Old Testament there is constant mention of God giving salvation and pleas to God for salvation but in the New Testament it teaches that ( under Paul's epistles only ) that salvation is strictly through faith whereas Jesus (pbuh) taught that salvation was through following of the commandments, a teaching that was consistent with the old faith.

 

Also why is it that contrary to the Old Testament the New Testament teaches not only to be obedient to government but to not rebel?

 

To me personally, if one is seeking truth and using logic it would seem that something is inconsistent.

 

Oh and before I forget this .... before Augustine has a chance to jump in with his uber Catholicism .... as far as I am concerned the early fathers of Christianity were people like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Peter not the people who came several decades later.

 

Just some things to ponder on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great thread to follow! As an atheist, I could easily jump in, but I feel you are all equally deluded. All religions we know about, from the beginning of recorded history, took time to develop, and scholars have noted contradictions in almost all so-called "Holy Texts." Now, all true believers find ways to brush them aside and also find ways to adopt the understanding that they like the most. You Muslims should admit that this is very much the case with Islam, and not just dismiss those who believe and follow a different interpretation as "wrong." Bin Laden and his like ARE following the Qur'an. And, if you don't like what he did, in the name of his god and the name of Islam, at least acknowledge his motivation. Your religion has caused as much evil as Christianity, especially in recent times!

 

show me contradictions in Quran if you can find it....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see you are still using a ruddy translation. Of course you see it as illogical as your heart has been hardend just like the pharaoh in Exodus. As far as me posting the verses I can put out pages of it. You would not bother to fully research them though as I have done this before and you maybe will adress one or two. So why should I bother with multiple post of verses. I spose it is not much different than me wasting my time with hours of youtube videos though from someone who clearly does not understan the Bible. Let alone properly. Now that my little rant is over lets get down to business.

 

show me where did i used wrong translations

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now lets look at John 1:18 you clearly do not understan the verse with your illogical mind so let me illuminate it for you. :)

Now as for what you adress in St Matthew. You will never understand this till you can understand the Holy Trinity. And the only way you will appear to understand that is through a miracle. As to the other verses you posted I have adressed them before I am sure so I will not adress them again as my answer to you was "illogical" so why bother.

 

Now answer me this friend. How are you saved. Your good works alone will not save you. So now please read the article below and tell me how you are saved.

 

how can we understand 1+1+1=1 , impossible, i think i need to kill my all brain cells to understand it, even then i could not udnerstand it...

 

your christianity is totally illogical religion.

 

How are you saved. Your good works alone will not save you. So now please read the article below and tell me how you are saved.

 

you need to have faith, do good deeds, stay away from evil deeds, follow all prophet of God, expesically Muhammed and God's book quran, and then you can hope for God's mercy to get you in the paradise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can anyone here explain how can all powerfull God be a barber who shaves people's legs, and He rides little baby girl angels (like helicopters) to move himself?

this is how God is described in bible, no wonder why atheists make fun of us relgious people when they read such nonsence, and they think Islam is like christianity in such absurdities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assalamu alaykum all,

 

I agree with Younes, but I think the title of this thread inevitably was worded wrong. Anytime you have the word "debate" come up especially between "belief" it will always devolve into chaos and name calling.

 

It should be as specific a topic pertaining to Islam and Christianity and have the word "conversation" (like the name of the sub-forum itself) instead of "debate" in my humble opinion :cool:

 

Just my 2 cents......

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

show me where did i used wrong translations

 

Well lets start with the basics. How many books does that Bible have you quoted from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×