Jump to content
Islamic Forum
andalusi

Muslim-Christian Debate, Here

Recommended Posts

this cant be true, this is your christian distortion, do you know why that is true?

 

beacuse jesus himself did not eat pork. why did he not eat it, beacuse it is unclean according to God in OT. and science also confirms that pork is unclean, so

 

God forbids pork in bible and quran, jesus and muhammed never ate pork. and science also say pork is unclean. that is why you are wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

you christian are totally lost people, that is why yo ucant find right path.

 

Your bible commands you to be circumsied, jesus was cirucmsied. even we muslims and jews do that, and science also confirms that it is good for our health to do circumcision.

 

 

 

 

you dont even who holy ghost is, why beacuse you dont have real revelations from God, that is why you depict holy ghost as dove, something mystical.

 

according to God in quran holy ghost is angel Gabriel, you can even get that from bible

 

look for yourself

 

 

Proof from bible that angel Gabriel is the Holy spirit

 

Proof from Bible

<< Matthew 1:18 >>

This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

 

combine with this

 

<< Luke 1:26-27 >>

In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

 

Proof from Quran that angel gabriel is the holy spirit

 

God says in quran:

16:102 Say that the Holy Spirit has brought the Revelation with the Truth step by step from your Lord, to strengthen the believers and as guidance and good news to the muslims.

 

combine with this

 

God says in quran:

2:97 Say [Prophet], ‘If anyone is an enemy of Gabriel- who by God’s leave brought down the Quran to your heart confirming previous scriptures as a guide and good news for the faithful-

 

conslusion is Holy spirit is angel Gabriel

 

 

mistery solved

 

 

 

 

 

but your bible says that

 

1 Timothy 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

 

 

they depicted holy ghost at least and jesus, beacuse according to some verses in bible holy ghost was a dove.

I was looking back through our conversation and I noticed that I missed one of your points. It's the one where you quote Gabriel's visit to Mary.

 

You are quoting Luke 1:26-27 out of context. Here is the context.

 

Luke 1:26-38

New International Version (NIV)

The Birth of Jesus Foretold

 

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

 

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

 

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

 

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

 

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

 

That is Gabriel going to tell Mary that the Holy Spirit would make her pregnant. If Gabriel were the Holy Spirit then this would make little sense. Gabriel himself says that the Holy Spirit would come over Mary and cause her pregnancy. This would make even less sense if, as you said earlier Muhammad was the Holy Spirit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

nooo, are you running away from me???

 

when you start to give me logical explanations wich does not contradict your holy book then i will not repeat these questions.

If my explanations are illogical then please point out their errors. I still await a reply on the early church fathers saying Jesus was God.

 

Also I suggest we try to put some order into our conversations. I say we go back to discussing Jesus' divinity since that is the core of our differences. I'll give the biblical traditional and magisterial evidence. Then you will post a refutation for each part. Then I will pick the first refutation you posted and we will discuss it and it alone until we agree on what that point means. Then we will move on to my next point and your refutation. And so on and on until we run out of things to discuss and have come to an agreement on Jesus' divinity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i wrote this:

beacuse it harms people in different ways like violence, rape, killing, loss of money, cancer, car accidents....is this not reason to prohibit it, 

 

 

It is not wine or beer which causes all those things. It is the fallen nature of man. Men may kill backside they are drunk, but then they chose to get drunk in the first place. You have quoted that verse out of context. Here is the context.

Judges 13:3-5
English Standard Version (ESV)
3 And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. 4 Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, 5 for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save israel from the hand of the Philistines.”

An angel is telling Samson's mother that her son shall be a Nazirite and not drink. That is like saying because priests make vows of celibacy that all Christians should be celibate. You are misquoting scripture.

 

yes it is fallen nature of men, but drunk people lose their common sense and can commit these acts easier than abstinents. you are only make exuses for something wich cause so much evil, you religion christianity allows you that. that is why it is total illogical for me that God would allow somehing wich would cause so much evil in this world.

 

even your bible says that wine creates such stuff

 

proverbs 4:17

They eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.

 

 

 

You have quoted that verse out of context. Here is the context.

 

let say that i missqouted it, what about other verses where God forbids moses and aron to drink ??? and other biblical verses about alcohol.

 

 

 

That is like saying because priests make vows of celibacy that all Christians should be celibate. 

 

who allowed the to practice celibacy, jesus did not, God did not, God said in the quran that monks inveted ceibacy, God did not commanded them to do so. celibacy is against human nature, that is why it is wrong. 

Edited by andalusi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Church did not say that circumcision was abolished. They said it was brought to completion in baptism. Since Jesus said they would be infallible on these issues, then Jesus gives his approval to the Church's teachings.

 

On Abraham. That is an error on my part then. However he was not a Muslim beyond submission to God. The Quran was not around then either.

 

 

They said it was brought to completion in baptism. 

 

did jesus said that? No

did God said that? No

 

so where is their evidence for their sayings. No muslim Masjid can be above the prophet or God, when Imams/mosque say something theyr need to give proof for that, not , mosque/church forbids you this and that. that is not acceptable. only people with blind faith accepts thats.

 

 

, then Jesus gives his approval to the Church's teachings.

 

no he did not give his approval for the church teachings, first,m there was no church during jesus time on earth,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are no Bible verses that forbid it. It forbids drunkenness not drinking. Jesus made water into wine. They called Him a drunkard because He drank, but he didn't get drunk by over doing it. The Bible says drink a little wine.....You have no idea what you're talking about or you have misconception of the Bible and Christianity, but don't feel bad some Christians do as well. You need to read the verse in context you cited. What you are doing is mind quoting to say what you want it to. That verse spoke of Samson. It was not for everyone to follow.

 

Proverbs 23:31

Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!

 

but you christian drink it, even though it is forbidden to you to even look at it.

 

proverbs 4:17

They eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.

 

 

75 WARNINGS

There is more Scripture condemning the use of alcoholic beverages than will be found on the subjects of lying, adultery, swearing, cheating, hypocrisy, pride, or even blasphemy.

 

1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.

6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.

11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.

12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.

13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated

14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the israelites.

15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.

16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

20) Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

21) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.

22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

23) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

24) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

25) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

26) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.

27) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.

29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)

30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

31) Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.

32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.

33) Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.

35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

36) Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.

37) Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.

38) Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.

39) Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.

40) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

43) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

44) Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.

45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple.

46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.

47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.

48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.

50) Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment.

51) Joel 3:3 - The enemy is judged for selling girls for wine.

52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.

53) Amos 2:12 - israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

54) Micah 2:11 - israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.

55) Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.

56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

58) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.

60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.

61) Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.

62) Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return.

63) Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.

65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.

66) 1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God

67) Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

68) Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

69) 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.

70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

72) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.

74) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

75) 1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.

 

 

 

The Bible says drink a little wine....

 

no it does not, only your low desires says that, this is what you bible say

 

Proverbs 23:31

Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!

 

maybe you shall drink it when you eyes are closed  :lol:  :lol: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was looking back through our conversation and I noticed that I missed one of your points. It's the one where you quote Gabriel's visit to Mary.

 

You are quoting Luke 1:26-27 out of context. Here is the context.

 

Luke 1:26-38

New International Version (NIV)

The Birth of Jesus Foretold

 

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

 

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

 

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

 

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

 

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

 

That is Gabriel going to tell Mary that the Holy Spirit would make her pregnant. If Gabriel were the Holy Spirit then this would make little sense. Gabriel himself says that the Holy Spirit would come over Mary and cause her pregnancy. This would make even less sense if, as you said earlier Muhammad was the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

That is Gabriel going to tell Mary that the Holy Spirit would make her pregnant. If Gabriel were the Holy Spirit then this would make little sense. Gabriel himself says that the Holy Spirit would come over Mary and cause her pregnancy.

 

Gabriel is a name, holy spirit is a title. so If gabriel said that (he)holy spirit will cause mary to become pregnant.

 

 

This would make even less sense if, as you said earlier Muhammad was the Holy Spirit. 

 

not holy spirit, but Spirit of truth as your bible say.

 

Quran clearly says angel gabriel is the holy spirit, if you accept this fine, if not, keep believe in holy spirit like a bird (Dove).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If my explanations are illogical then please point out their errors. I still await a reply on the early church fathers saying Jesus was God.

 

Also I suggest we try to put some order into our conversations. I say we go back to discussing Jesus' divinity since that is the core of our differences. I'll give the biblical traditional and magisterial evidence. Then you will post a refutation for each part. Then I will pick the first refutation you posted and we will discuss it and it alone until we agree on what that point means. Then we will move on to my next point and your refutation. And so on and on until we run out of things to discuss and have come to an agreement on Jesus' divinity.

 

does not matter who said what if jesus himself never said, I AM GOD, or WORSHIP ME. so it is irrelevant what they say if Jesus never claimed that.

 

you allways need to go to the source, Jesus or God, not church fathers and whoever they are.

 

Where did jesus say i AM GOD, did he say anywhere in the bible? NO, if he was he would said that.

 

Can you imagine God being little baby, who poo, and his mother wash his a**, and when he need to eat and go to toilet, he then grows, and being humiliated halfnaked and killed on the cross, a dead God. what kind of God is that, that cant help himself???  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that Islam has imperfectly borrowed the virgin birth story of Jesus Christ from the NT Bible, because that is the only place it is documented before Muhammad was born.

I would rather trust the information from the direct source and I don't feel Muslims can speak knowledge to me concerning the virgin birth. They accept the virgin birth story from the Bible, but they don't accept the reason the Bible gives for it and they haven't been able to give me a reason for it from the Quran. All they do is speculate about the reason for it, IMO.

 

but bible is corrupted book, i gave evidence how it was corrupted, so how can you trust something in that book if you dont have reference, like we muslims have reference the Quran?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is one thing I don't understand - why do all "Muslim-Christian debates" concentrate on several petty theological issues?

 

From a society's point of view it doesn't matter whether Jesus was god, a son of god or a prophet of god. On the other hand, issues such as whether the state and religion should be one (as in case of Islam) or divided (Christian divide between "sacrum" and "profanum"), the religion's stance towards apostasy, violence etc - these are of critical importance and basically decide over the fate of entire countries if not civilizations. Despite this I haven't seen many people discussing them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is one thing I don't understand - why do all "Muslim-Christian debates" concentrate on several petty theological issues?

 

From a society's point of view it doesn't matter whether Jesus was god, a son of god or a prophet of god. On the other hand, issues such as whether the state and religion should be one (as in case of Islam) or divided (Christian divide between "sacrum" and "profanum"), the religion's stance towards apostasy, violence etc - these are of critical importance and basically decide over the fate of entire countries if not civilizations. Despite this I haven't seen many people discussing them.

We tend to focus on theological issues because those determine the truth of our religions. However I find the idea of discussing the societal effects of these religions a breath of fresh air. By all means start a thread on it and I will gladly join your discussion.

Andalusi. You have posted a lot of info. I will reply sometime tomorrow. I must do research now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Andalusi I will be replying later this week. I am busy studying for school.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but bible is corrupted book, i gave evidence how it was corrupted, so how can you trust something in that book if you dont have reference, like we muslims have reference the Quran?

I have showed you our references. They are the church fathers. The disciples of the apostles. They tell us how the NT is accurate. You know, we can put together almost the entire bible from their books. Of course to do this we have to let in a number of men from several centuries after. However, from this we can see that the bible was not corrupted.

 

On another note, the bible suddenly being corrupted violates the logic of history. As an example, I will give the Arian controversy. During the 4th century, a bishop named Arius claimed that Christ was a created being, very old, but created. His ideas became very popular due to his masterful hymns. However the whole time, he was teaching the Church fathers wrote against him. We have many texts covering his ideas and explaining their incorrectness. Now imagine as you claim. That suddenly the bible was corrupt except for a small group. Why would their not be just as many writings about this corruption as Arius? Note I am talking about the New Testament not the old so the misreading of Jerehmiah doesn't count. Give me a quote by a Church father on the bible being corrupt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

does not matter who said what if jesus himself never said, I AM GOD, or WORSHIP ME. so it is irrelevant what they say if Jesus never claimed that.

 

you allways need to go to the source, Jesus or God, not church fathers and whoever they are.

 

Where did jesus say i AM GOD, did he say anywhere in the bible? NO, if he was he would said that.

 

Can you imagine God being little baby, who poo, and his mother wash his a**, and when he need to eat and go to toilet, he then grows, and being humiliated halfnaked and killed on the cross, a dead God. what kind of God is that, that cant help himself???

But it is not on their authority alone that I rest this. I have showed you at least three times, where in the bible it says Jesus is God. Everytime you have replied that I misinterpreted the verse. So I showed you how the apostles and their disciples interpreted it. So again, their witness shows that Jesus was God.

 

For your question I will quote Jesus.

 

New Living Translation

The greatest among you must be a servant.

 

So since God is the greatest, by Jesus words he must become the least. He must come, live a life of poverty and die, executed as a criminal. However Jesus also came to save all of humanity by his death. So yes I can imagine God as a baby who willingly died on a cross.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gabriel is a name, holy spirit is a title. so If gabriel said that (he)holy spirit will cause mary to become pregnant.

 

 

not holy spirit, but Spirit of truth as your bible say.

 

Quran clearly says angel gabriel is the holy spirit, if you accept this fine, if not, keep believe in holy spirit like a bird (Dove).

Okay so lets say my title is the rock fish. And I go to a lady and say, behold for the rock fish will come over you and the power of God will overshadow you. So the holy one who will be born will be called the Son of God.

 

Why would I do this if right before I was shown to be named FireFromHeaven?

 

Finally I have apostolic tradition to back up my interpretation.

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/612/Spirit_of_Truth_St_Hilary.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

did jesus said that? No

did God said that? No

 

so where is their evidence for their sayings. No muslim Masjid can be above the prophet or God, when Imams/mosque say something theyr need to give proof for that, not , mosque/church forbids you this and that. that is not acceptable. only people with blind faith accepts thats.

 

 

no he did not give his approval for the church teachings, first,m there was no church during jesus time on earth,

God and Jesus both said it when they said this to Paul. And they both reiterated it when they gave the church the ability to make dogmatic declarations. You seem to be dodging my points. Please tell me how the verses by Shameless Popery are misinterpreted, then tell me why the disciples of the apostles would also misinterpret it.

 

The Church is not above Christ. Christ is who gave it this power in the first place. The Church thus has the power to infallibly interpret scripture, tradition and revelation ( such as Paul's experience on the Road to Damascus).

 

Yes he did as Shameless Popery shows and again as he shows that while the church did not exist during Jesus' life, Jesus did lay the seeds for it. These seeds germinated in the book of Acts as shown here.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0407.asp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i wrote this:

beacuse it harms people in different ways like violence, rape, killing, loss of money, cancer, car accidents....is this not reason to prohibit it,

 

 

 

yes it is fallen nature of men, but drunk people lose their common sense and can commit these acts easier than abstinents. you are only make exuses for something wich cause so much evil, you religion christianity allows you that. that is why it is total illogical for me that God would allow somehing wich would cause so much evil in this world.

 

even your bible says that wine creates such stuff

proverbs 4:17

They eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.

 

 

 

let say that i missqouted it, what about other verses where God forbids moses and aron to drink ??? and other biblical verses about alcohol.

 

 

 

who allowed the to practice celibacy, jesus did not, God did not, God said in the quran that monks inveted ceibacy, God did not commanded them to do so. celibacy is against human nature, that is why it is wrong.

But Andalusi I have seen my own parents drink a single glass of wine and not kill, or rape, or crash cars, or do any of the other things you listed. That is because they obeyed Jesus and remained sober. A sober person chooses to only drink one glass, whereas a drunkard chose to get drunk and is thus responsible for whatever he or she does while drunk.

 

The verse you quote is using poetic imagery. You can't be saying that bread is also unclean?

 

I only found this verse which had anything to do with alchohol and Moses.

 

Numbers 6:1-3

The LORD said to Moses,"Speak to the israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of dedication to the LORD as a Nazirite, they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins

 

That too is about Nazirites. Could you again give me the other verses involving Moses and Aaron and alcohol?

 

On the monks. It is not an order of God. These men and women choose to not have sex so that they may focus solely on God in prayer and meditation. Please tell me Andalusi. Will these men go to Hell for not having sex? For choosing not to have it and instead to pray to God? As the church fathers taught, it is Jesus who showed us what we need and what we don't. And Jesus never had sex.

Edited by Heavens Fire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You quoted a long list of verses on alcohol. Many are out of context or being misinterpreted. However I can't cover them as I must sleep for school tomorrow. Good night and God bless, Andalusi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

now question is

 

How can your religion christianity allow somethig wich is harmful to your health?

 

My relgion Islam protects me and my health, while your religion christianity allows you harm your health, such stuff defines wich relgion is a true relgion from God and wich is manmade. 

 

Logically, if God is good, he will give instructions what to do and what not to do, what is harfum what is ok to us. People now can see this and decide what is more logical

 

that God forbid alcohol in Islam, beacuse it harms people in different ways

 

or

 

that God allows in christianity alcohol wich harms people.

 

this shows wich relgion is logical and rational, my logic says that God does not allow people stuff wich harms them. and that fits with Islam. that is why i am proud to be a follower of Islam. but you christians follow your low desires, you dont care what jesus say, you only care what your stomach says :yes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

 

This is a warning against drunkenness. It doesn't outlaw alcohol completely.

 

2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

 

Again, this warns against drunkenness. It doesn't say alcohol is forbidden.

 

3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

 

That is also a warning against drunkenness not an outlawing of alcohol.

 

4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

 

Those were specific vows that people chose, not blanket laws for all israelites.

 

5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.

 

Again this warns against drunkenness.

 

6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

 

That is not an outlawing of alcohol. It's says right there in the text that this was to help them see God. A lot like monks and sex.

 

7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

 

This is on intoxication not prohibition of all drinks.

 

8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

 

That is a specific vow for a specific man.

 

9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

 

Eli thought Hannah was drunk. Instead she was praying and told him that she had not been drinking. Hardly an outlawing of alcohol.

 

10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.

 

Hardly forbid alcohol. Again an example of the bad effects of drunkenness.

 

11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.

 

That is David using alcohol to cover himself. This verse does not forbid alcohol.

 

12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.

 

Again doesn't forbid alcohol.

 

13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated

 

The king was a sinner, then. That doesn't mean alcohol is forbidden.

 

14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the israelites.

 

Again doesn't forbid alcohol.

 

15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.

 

The Persian king being a drunkard doesn't mean drinking is forbidden.

 

16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

 

Here is another verse from psalms.

Psalm 104:13-15

New International Version (NIV)

13 He waters the mountains from his upper chambers;

the land is satisfied by the fruit of his work.

14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,

and plants for people to cultivate—

bringing forth food from the earth:

15 wine that gladdens human hearts,

oil to make their faces shine,

and bread that sustains their hearts.

 

From these two we can see that moderation in alcohol is okay, but drunkenness is not.

 

17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

20) Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

21) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.

22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

23) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

24) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

25) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

26) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.

27) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.

 

Most of these proverbs are advice on when he should drink and warnings not to drink in excess.

 

29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)

 

Alcohol on its own is not the key to happiness. Jesus is.

 

30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

 

Indeed. Imagine having a drunkard for a king. Alexander of Macedon comes to mind.

 

31) Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.

 

Again warns against drunkenness but doesn't forbid alcohol.

 

32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.

33) Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.

35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

36) Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.

37) Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.

38) Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.

39) Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.

40) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

 

All of these are the same as above.

 

41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

 

Same as monks. It doesn't mean drinking is not allowed at all.

 

42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

 

Priests are a separate group devoted to God. Much like monks they focus solely on him.

 

43) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

 

This story illustrates the benefits if eating only vegetables. I only see a passing mention of alcohol.

 

44) Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.

 

Same as with the Persian in Esther.

 

45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple.

 

That is defiling what is from the temple. Not outlawing drink.

 

46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.

 

They are defiling the temple glass even more when they worship false gods. There is no outlawing alcohol here.

 

47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.

 

Belshazzar's crime wasn't drinking some wine. It was defiling things from the temple.

 

48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

 

Only when drunk.

 

49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.

 

Indeed. Princes shouldn't be drunk. This doesn't outlaw drink.

 

50) Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment.

 

This is about drunkards not those who drink some wine.

 

51) Joel 3:3 - The enemy is judged for selling girls for wine.

 

That is a grave sin in and of itself. He was probably also a drunkard so again this is no warning against all alcohol.

 

52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.

 

They are drinking in the temple. This is completely wrong.

 

53) Amos 2:12 - israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

 

That is wrong because Nazarites are sworn to not drink.

 

54) Micah 2:11 - israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.

 

This is poetic language. The people cared more for alcohol than for God's word.

 

55) Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.

 

Again, about drunkenness not forbidding all alcohol.

 

56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

 

4 “See, the enemy is puffed up;

his desires are not upright—

but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness-

5 indeed, wine betrays him;

he is arrogant and never at rest.

Because he is as greedy as the grave

and like death is never satisfied,

he gathers to himself all the nations

and takes captive all the peoples.

 

Here is the context. This is about an unrighteous man. Thus a drunkard. It is not about banning all wine.

 

57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

 

15 “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,

pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk,

so that he can gaze on their naked bodies!

 

That is a lot more than sharing a glass of wine with a neighbor. :)

 

58) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

 

You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and let your nakedness be exposed! The cup from the LORD's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory.

 

This isn't saying that drinking leads to shame. This is saying that all their sins will be exposed.

 

59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.

 

Again, forbids drunkenness. Not all alcohol.

 

60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.

 

He was a Nazarite. If he did he would have broken his vows.

 

61) Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.

62) Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return.

 

Yet as both me and redeemed have shown you Jesus both drank and allowed others to drink.

 

63) Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.

65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.

66) 1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God

67) Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

68) Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

69) 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.

70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

72) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.

74) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

75) 1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.

 

All of these are warnings against drunkenness. None of them say all alcohol is evil.

 

Finally these two articles show what the bible says about moderation. The second is a very informative series.

 

http://www.gci.org/series/alcohol/bible

 

http://www.theomag.com/2012/04/are-you-there-vodka-part-4/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

now question is

 

How can your religion christianity allow somethig wich is harmful to your health?

 

My relgion Islam protects me and my health, while your religion christianity allows you harm your health, such stuff defines wich relgion is a true relgion from God and wich is manmade. 

 

Logically, if God is good, he will give instructions what to do and what not to do, what is harfum what is ok to us. People now can see this and decide what is more logical

 

that God forbid alcohol in Islam, beacuse it harms people in different ways

 

or

 

that God allows in christianity alcohol wich harms people.

 

this shows wich relgion is logical and rational, my logic says that God does not allow people stuff wich harms them. and that fits with Islam. that is why i am proud to be a follower of Islam. but you christians follow your low desires, you dont care what jesus say, you only care what your stomach says :yes:

 

You are close to the truth. However you barely miss it. God wants to give us the greatest good. A long healthy life is not that. The greatest good is salvation. That is why He came to die for our sins.

 

As I said before, small amounts of alcohol can be good for you and should it cause you to sin, then you must stop drinking and tempting yourself to get drunk.

 

I don't care if Islam is slightly better for my health or not. I can keep my body and mind healthy by exercising them and eating normal sized meals. A small bodily health boost is no good when it leads to me risking my soul by refusing God's way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Your wrong, Jesus did allow the practice of celibacy.

 

“For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it” – Matthew 19:12

 

i dont think jesus said this beacuse it is not logical, if this was general practice this would kill humanity, imagine if every male lived in celibacy? what would happen?

humanity would die in 100 years, that is why celibacy is wrong beacuse it is against the nature.

 

if celibacy was noble practice, all other prophets of God would practice it, why did moses and abraham had wives??? solomon, muhammed, david and many many other? beacuse it is in nature of men to marry and have offsprings, that is normal and natural, wich Islam propagate, that is why Islam is natural relgion from God and christianity is not, christianity is invetion by men, God clearly said in the quran that celibacy was inveted by monks, that God himself never ordered that to them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are close to the truth. However you barely miss it. God wants to give us the greatest good. A long healthy life is not that. The greatest good is salvation. That is why He came to die for our sins.

 

As I said before, small amounts of alcohol can be good for you and should it cause you to sin, then you must stop drinking and tempting yourself to get drunk.

 

I don't care if Islam is slightly better for my health or not. I can keep my body and mind healthy by exercising them and eating normal sized meals. A small bodily health boost is no good when it leads to me risking my soul by refusing God's way.

 

 

more i read your post more i realize how superior Islam Islam, becuase i see how delusion is present among christians

 

even though God saysd in the quran, there is some benefits of alcohol for humansm, but harm if even greater than then benegfit, that is why it is forbidden. but tstill you christians follow your low desires and drink alcohol. even though it has little benefits dangers is far greater.

 

tell me something, what does it help you if alcohol help your blood circulasion and in meanwhile alcohol in your body helps cancer cell to be born and helps them to grow faster. that is why God forbid it.

 

 

 

That is why He came to die for our sins.

 

 

 

absolutly not, you live in a dream world, my friend, where is logic that someone innocent is punished for youtr sins, do you christians have any logic left in your minds???+ for God sake :no:

 

how can you beleive such nonsence. what about i rob the bank and we put you in jail for that, would you like it.

 

 

 

A small bodily health boost is no good when it leads to me risking my soul by refusing God's way.

 

 

so you will come closer to God via alcohol??? :no: ooh man....

 

christianity is most unlogical relgion i have ever seen in my life.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i dont think jesus said this beacuse it is not logical, if this was general practice this would kill humanity, imagine if every male lived in celibacy? what would happen?

humanity would die in 100 years, that is why celibacy is wrong beacuse it is against the nature.

 

if celibacy was noble practice, all other prophets of God would practice it, why did moses and abraham had wives??? solomon, muhammed, david and many many other? beacuse it is in nature of men to marry and have offsprings, that is normal and natural, wich Islam propagate, that is why Islam is natural relgion from God and christianity is not, christianity is invetion by men, God clearly said in the quran that celibacy was inveted by monks, that God himself never ordered that to them.

We have given you where Jesus said it. As Aquinas said the logic of man is not the logic of God. Celibacy is so demanding that very few do choose it. And those who do benefit massively. However not all are called to this life and many instead raise a family. I can't find the verse but Paul said that should you burn with lust it is best to get married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i dont think jesus said this beacuse it is not logical, if this was general practice this would kill humanity, imagine if every male lived in celibacy? what would happen?

humanity would die in 100 years, that is why celibacy is wrong beacuse it is against the nature.

 

if celibacy was noble practice, all other prophets of God would practice it, why did moses and abraham had wives??? solomon, muhammed, david and many many other? beacuse it is in nature of men to marry and have offsprings, that is normal and natural, wich Islam propagate, that is why Islam is natural relgion from God and christianity is not, christianity is invetion by men, God clearly said in the quran that celibacy was inveted by monks, that God himself never ordered that to them.

We have given you where Jesus said it. As Aquinas said the logic of man is not the logic of God. Celibacy is so demanding that very few do choose it. And those who do benefit massively. However not all are called to this life and many instead raise a family. I can't find the verse but Paul said that should you burn with lust it is best to get married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

more i read your post more i realize how superior Islam Islam, becuase i see how delusion is present among christians

 

even though God saysd in the quran, there is some benefits of alcohol for humansm, but harm if even greater than then benegfit, that is why it is forbidden. but tstill you christians follow your low desires and drink alcohol. even though it has little benefits dangers is far greater.

 

tell me something, what does it help you if alcohol help your blood circulasion and in meanwhile alcohol in your body helps cancer cell to be born and helps them to grow faster. that is why God forbid it.

 

 

 

absolutly not, you live in a dream world, my friend, where is logic that someone innocent is punished for youtr sins, do you christians have any logic left in your minds???+ for God sake :no:

 

how can you beleive such nonsence. what about i rob the bank and we put you in jail for that, would you like it.

 

 

 

so you will come closer to God via alcohol??? :no: ooh man....

 

christianity is most unlogical relgion i have ever seen in my life.

If the only reason we aren't to drink small amounts of alcohol is because of health, then why not extend that logic to all foods. That means no pastries, no carbonated drinks, no coffee and as little meat as possible. For that matter why not throw in an exercise regimen. Note Andalusi I am not saying that drunkenness is good. As Jesus and God said this is a no-no. I always thought all alcohol even in moderation was forbidden in Islam because to drink it was a sin and could lead to hell. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

As the article you posted said, if you remain within government guidelines on drinking (2 glasses a day if memory serves) the cancer risk was kept very very low.

 

On sacrifice. He wasn't punished for our sins. He was sacrificed for them. And what's more he was a completely willing sacrifice. He could have easily escaped had He wished. However he sacrificed himself for us.

 

As Jesus said. John 15:13 No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

 

God is love. Jesus' sacrifice shows that love.

 

On your analogy. I don't think that represents it well enough. A better example would be that you rob a bank. The court tells you to pay a fine. However you don't have anywhere near enough money to pay the fine. So I agree to pay it for you, on one condition. That you never again commit your sin again. If you do it again without a repentant heart I will not help you.

 

No alcohol doesn't bring one closer to God. However as Jesus showed it does not lead one away from Him and can be a good drink.

 

Islam is the most illogical religion ever. (well at least among the religions that adhere to logic) It claims to follow a man's teachings yet ignores what he says for a man 600 years after that fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×