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Pardon the double post. Also, thanks John Paul. I couldn't remember it.

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Jesus Cannot Be God (Clear Proof)

 

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So are you conceding the point and moving on to a different topic?

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So are you conceding the point and moving on to a different topic?

 

there is no point going back on pork and alcohol topics when it is clear that you dont follow logic and bible , but only your low desires. if you dont care about your health why should i?

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I have given you a clear post on the why pork and alcohol are permitted. Please show me how I am being illogical.

 

Of course if you would rather discuss Jesus' divinity than say so.

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I have given you a clear post on the why pork and alcohol are permitted. Please show me how I am being illogical.

 

Of course if you would rather discuss Jesus' divinity than say so.

 

God says in your bible that you shall not eat it:

Leviticus 11:7-8 ESV / 74 helpful votes

And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and you say no, God is wrong, it is ok to eat it, man how do you christians think really????????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what is wrong with your relgion, your holy book forbids pork, while your religion christianity allows you that, what nonsence is that, cant you see how ridicolous this is. you are really deluded nation, you go against your holy book to justfy your low desires, beacuse who the hell can be without this during summer time

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

13895024-pork-on-the-grill-inthe-open-re

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and evil drink like alcohol is permitted also according to your relgion, that is why your relgion is false and manmade, beacuse all-knowing God would never allow people such drink wich would cause them to so much murder, violence, rape, loss of health and wealth, car accidents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

thank God i am muslim, i am so proud of my relgion Islam when i see what you people believe, i actually see how superior my relgion Islam is over your man-made christianity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

keep do what you used to do, and God will judge between us on the day of judgement, then we will see who is right and who is wrong.

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Andalusi,

     That pig looked a little done to me.  The point the others are trying to make is that Jesus didn't come to break the Law but to fulfill it.  He made all foods clean. For it is not what goes into a person that's evil but what comes out.  In short our thoughts, speech, and actions that expose all as being the sinners that we are.  Now, the OT had the meat prohibition this you stated yourself.  Yet, its no longer a prohibition upon Christians.  The mistake your making is in reading the Holy Bible as a Quran.  The Holy Bible is a collection of books spread over vast stretches of time comprising the Old and New Testaments. The Koran that was according to Islam divinely delivered over a short period of time, I think what 20 years?  Then it was assembled but the way its ordered is different than the Holy Bible.  So you can go back and forth with it.  The Holy Bible talks to different people at different times.  So your citing of Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians today.  Now it does apply to Jews but then they don't even acknowledge  Jesus as anything more than a Rabbi, not prophet, not messiah not God.  So, they still live as under the Law. 

 

Peace be with you

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God says in your bible that you shall not eat it: Leviticus 11:7-8 ESV / 74 helpful votes

And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and you say no, God is wrong, it is ok to eat it, man how do you christians think really????????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what is wrong with your relgion, your holy book forbids pork, while your religion christianity allows you that, what nonsence is that, cant you see how ridicolous this is. you are really deluded nation, you go against your holy book to justfy your low desires, beacuse who the hell can be without this during summer time

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

size

 

 

 

 

 

 

and evil drink like alcohol is permitted also according to your relgion, that is why your relgion is false and manmade, beacuse all-knowing God would never allow people such drink wich would cause them to so much murder, violence, rape, loss of health and wealth, car accidents.

 

 

 

 

 

thank God i am muslim, i am so proud of my relgion Islam when i see what you people believe, i actually see how superior my relgion Islam is over your man-made christianity.

 

 

 

 

 

keep do what you used to do, and God will judge between us on the day of judgement, then we will see who is right and who is wrong.

The problem Andalusi is you take a single verse. Rip it out of all context and say it is binding. Leviticus was adresses to the Jews to set them apart as God's people. As both me and gmcbroom showed you Jesus made all foods clean. This shows that for Christians pork is allowable.

 

Alcohol only does those things when you are drunk which neither Jesus or Christianity allow.

 

As you are proud of Islam so do I love God and His Church. Indeed, we will find out the truth on Judgement day. May God bless you and have mercy on you. I will pray for you.

 

And indeed, that pig is burnt.

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Andalusi,

     That pig looked a little done to me.  The point the others are trying to make is that Jesus didn't come to break the Law but to fulfill it.  He made all foods clean. For it is not what goes into a person that's evil but what comes out.  In short our thoughts, speech, and actions that expose all as being the sinners that we are.  Now, the OT had the meat prohibition this you stated yourself.  Yet, its no longer a prohibition upon Christians.  The mistake your making is in reading the Holy Bible as a Quran.  The Holy Bible is a collection of books spread over vast stretches of time comprising the Old and New Testaments. The Koran that was according to Islam divinely delivered over a short period of time, I think what 20 years?  Then it was assembled but the way its ordered is different than the Holy Bible.  So you can go back and forth with it.  The Holy Bible talks to different people at different times.  So your citing of Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians today.  Now it does apply to Jews but then they don't even acknowledge  Jesus as anything more than a Rabbi, not prophet, not messiah not God.  So, they still live as under the Law. 

 

Peace be with you

 

 

 

The point the others are trying to make is that Jesus didn't come to break the Law but to fulfill it.

 

to not eat pig is the part of the old mosaic law wich jesus did not break nor did he abolished and he forbade people to be abolshed.

 

Matthew 5:17-19

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

if jesus allowed pork then he would abolish the old law and he would eat pork, but he did not eat it at all, so how can you believe that he allowed you pork when God clearly said it is unclean.

 

 

 

He made all foods clean. For it is not what goes into a person that's evil but what comes out. 

 

 

absoluetly not true, beacuse even simple logic tells you that

 

let say , you drink alcohol and become drunk , you drive a car and cause car accident and kill people in the other car.

 

did evil come into you in form of alcohol? yes, yes and yes.

 

 

 

Yet, its no longer a prohibition upon Christians. 

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

so how can you say that jesus abolished it? how can you believe that jesus allowed you something and he never eat it, why did he not show with his own example, that he allowed you pork, why did he not eat it??? beacuse he never allowwed you that.

you have missunderstood your bible completly, like allways.

 

how can you believe that pork is allowed to you, when God forbids it, jesus never said it is ok to eat pork, never ate it himself, he even said that he did not come to abolish the old law. and finally science tells you that pork is harmful to your health.

 

you dont care what bible says, nor God nor jesus, you only care what your stomach says, that is the real truth.

 

peace.

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Lol [at] man made Christianity – can you tell us which man made it up??

 

BTW – you didn’t answer my question below...

 

 

Paul

 

now you ask maybe, what is your proof andalusi.

 

my proof is that he abolished old mosaic laws wich jesus forbade to be abolished. that is why you eat pork, drink alcohol, and dont circumsize yourself.

and this is what happens when ordinary humans start to change the relgion of God, it harms people. pork harms people health, alcohol harms both health and life of people, and to not circumsize yourself harms both you and your wife beacuse of the infections you can get from the skin wich accumulate urine.

 

 

In your previous post you said “God said in the quran that monks inveted celibacy”. I would be interested to know where in the Quran God said that? This is a flat out contraction against history because monks did not appear till at least the 2nd century. Serious scholars concur the gospel of Matthew was written in the 1st century.

 

God said in the quran:

 

57:27 We sent other messengers to follow in their footsteps. After those We sent Jesus, son of Mary: We gave him the Gospel and put compassion and mercy into the hearts of his followers. But monasticism was something they invented- We did not ordain it for them- only to seek God’s pleasure, and even so, they did not observe it properly. So We gave a reward to those of them who believed, but many of them were lawbreakers.

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The problem Andalusi is you take a single verse. Rip it out of all context and say it is binding. Leviticus was adresses to the Jews to set them apart as God's people. As both me and gmcbroom showed you Jesus made all foods clean. This shows that for Christians pork is allowable.

 

Alcohol only does those things when you are drunk which neither Jesus or Christianity allow.

 

As you are proud of Islam so do I love God and His Church. Indeed, we will find out the truth on Judgement day. May God bless you and have mercy on you. I will pray for you.

 

And indeed, that pig is burnt.

 

no you did not, read my answer to gmcbroom

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With respect Andalusi, are you saying God couldn't or wouldn't do those things? I ask because I was raised and taught God could do anything.

 

Peace be with you

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With respect Andalusi, are you saying God couldn't or wouldn't do those things? I ask because I was raised and taught God could do anything.

 

Peace be with you

 

wich things?

 

God can do anything in Godly stuff, God cant do anything , if you say yes he can, then i ask you , can God become crazy? 

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Perhaps I wasn’t clear – I asked you to NAME the person or persons who made all this stuff up you claim to be man-made. I would like their names please?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that quote however it does not say the Christian monks living the life of monasticism were the FIRST ones to INVENT celibacy. You just contradicted yourself. How strange? All this yelling from you about your superior religion and arrogance, yet you contradict yourself with the bible and the quran. Go back and do some serious study and pray for a humble spirit.

 

 

 

Perhaps I wasn’t clear – I asked you to NAME the person or persons who made all this stuff up you claim to be man-made. I would like their names please?

 

 

 

i allready said that, it was Paul.

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I have no idea what you’re on about?

 

First – you accuse our religion of being man-made. I asked you to name the person/s responsible for making it up, you didn’t answer me...

 

Second – You said and I quote “God said in the quran that monks inveted celibacy”. The verse you provided from the Quran does not support your argument.

 

All this yelling and shouting; you have no idea what you’re talking about. The only thing you’re good at is taking verses out of context and affirming your own eisegesis. I can’t have an academic debate with you, you’re arguments are weak and self destructible.

 

Goodbye and God bless.

 

 

 

First – you accuse our religion of being man-made. I asked you to name the person/s responsible for making it up, you didn’t answer me...

 

 

christianity was made by Paul, not jesus, Paul abolished old laws and in that way he created new relgion christianity.

do you understand me now????

 

 

 

Second – You said and I quote “God said in the quran that monks inveted celibacy”. The verse you provided from the Quran does not support your argument

 

what is monasticism, you go to church and dont marry, you live ascetic life. that is celibacy.

it does not need to say celibacy in the quran when it say monasticism was inveted by you christians, and in monstacism there is celibacy.

 

if celibacy was the way, Moses, Abraham, Solomon, david, Jacob and others would not have wives. that is why christianity is not natural relgion like Islam. Islam is natural relgion beacuse it fits wich human nature, Islam knows that men need women, women need men, so it allows marriage, while celibacy is deviation from human nature, and even logic says it is not ok, beacuse

 

what would happen with humanity if all people lived in celibacy? humanity would die after 100 years

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christianity was made by Paul, not jesus, Paul abolished old laws and in that way he created new relgion christianity.

do you understand me now????

 

 

 

what is monasticism, you go to church and dont marry, you live ascetic life. that is celibacy.

it does not need to say celibacy in the quran when it say monasticism was inveted by you christians, and in monstacism there is celibacy.

 

if celibacy was the way, Moses, Abraham, Solomon, david, Jacob and others would not have wives. that is why christianity is not natural relgion like Islam. Islam is natural relgion beacuse it fits wich human nature, Islam knows that men need women, women need men, so it allows marriage, while celibacy is deviation from human nature, and even logic says it is not ok, beacuse

 

what would happen with humanity if all people lived in celibacy? humanity would die after 100 years

Not all are required to be celibate. Jesus himself never had sex. Only those who choose to become celibate. And Jesus said this was a good practice. However, most aren't called to celibacy.

 

It seems to me that Islam is focused on temporal life. Christianity on the other hand is focused on eternal life. As celibacy helps me draw closer to God, it is a good practice. However I an still be close to God as a married man. The higher road is celibacy but both are good paths. All that men and women need is God.

 

Funnily enough there was a Protestant sect that said members shouldn't have sex. It didn't last long.

Edited by Heavens Fire

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Not all are required to be celibate. Jesus himself never had sex. Only those who choose to become celibate. And Jesus said this was a good practice. However, most aren't called to celibacy.

 

It seems to me that Islam is focused on temporal life. Christianity on the other hand is focused on eternal life. As celibacy helps me draw closer to God, it is a good practice. However I an still be close to God as a married man. The higher road is celibacy but both are good paths. All that men and women need is God.

 

Funnily enough there was a Protestant sect that said members shouldn't have sex. It didn't last long.

 

so what if jesus never had sex , it was beacuse he was forced to depart the earth so young.

 

celibacy is against human nature, why do you propagate celibacy when you are in marriage, if it was true path you would never marry.

 

 

 

It seems to me that Islam is focused on temporal life.

 

absolutly not true, Islam is focus on next life, but Islam gives instruction how to live this world to get easier to paradise, and if you are in marriage it is easier to get to paradise.

 

 

However, most aren't called to celibacy.

 

 

 

if it was true path , moses and abraham would also live in celibacy, are you maybe better than them? and they had wives...

 

i see what is the consuequnces of celibacy, we often read in news that priests are active in pedophilia, fornication and homosexuality.

 

when you supress your nature to have sex with your wife, then it explodes somewhere, and then poor kids are the victims in the church :no:

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Sorry I thought you were addressing me rather than the apostle Paul. Paul didn’t make any of the doctrines up. He received revelations from Jesus and the miracles he performed testified he was telling the truth.

 

I showed you a verse from the gospel of Matthew (chapter 19:12) predating monasticism about celibacy. You see how you’re wrong? Celibacy was taught before monasticism.

 

 

 

 

He received revelations from Jesus and the miracles he performed testified he was telling the truth.

 

 

no he did not. how can you trust a man who did not have same teachings as jesus, jesus forbade to abolish old laws and paul abolished them.

 

if you read carefully what paul writes you will notice contradictions in his writings, so how can jesus give him contradictions????

 

 

 

I showed you a verse from the gospel of Matthew (chapter 19:12) predating monasticism about celibacy. You see how you’re wrong? Celibacy was taught before monasticism.

 

does not matter what came first, the point is that it is not normal way of life.

 

 

the funny thing is, i can have sex with my wife, be good man pray to God, help others, enjoy life and get paradise in hereafter

 

and you can live in celibacy 1000 years and you believe that there is other gods beside God, like you believe that jesus is God, then punishment for such believe is hellfire wich God promised that such disbeliever will get in hereafter.

 

so you are punishing yourself in this life and hereafter, for what? for nothing

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Andalusi,

     Greetings.  Paul didn't write the Gospel of Matthew.  He wrote the epistles and letters to various Churches but not the 4 Gospels themselves.  As I sit here writing this post I'm going through the Gospels before me as I see it in the New Catholic Answer Bible.  As I read the scholarly introduction to Matthew  it  is contributed to Matthew yet the true author may never be known at least not this side of the veil.  I The bible scholars believe it was incorporates but of Mark and a document called Q.  Does this mean Paul wrote it?  Not likely but all things are possible just some are highly improbable.  I then moved on to the Gospel of Mark that is actually considered by scholars to be the first of the Gospels.  While it too is anonymous the scholars and early church fathers Papias attribute it to John Mark a cousin of Barnabas.   Either shortly before or shortly after 70 A.D. possibly in Syria.  The Gospel of Luke is actually attributed to Luke and dated to by most scholars to 80-90 A.D. and though he is attributed to be a Syrian from Antioch some scholars believe he was a non Palestinian writing to a Gentile Christian audience.  The Gospel of John the one that is the most inflammatory here at this forum at least is attributed to an anonymous author attributed or to John of Zebedee through tradition, but more likely an eyewitness testimony to the events due to the accuracy of the detail in the Gospel itself.

     The Pauline Letters and epistles authorship is not seriously questioned and range from 51 A.D. to 67 A.D.   

Could Paul have written the Gospels?  Due to the style each was written in its not likely. 

 

Peace be with you.        

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so what if jesus never had sex , it was beacuse he was forced to depart the earth so young.

 

celibacy is against human nature, why do you propagate celibacy when you are in marriage, if it was true path you would never marry.

 

 

 

absolutly not true, Islam is focus on next life, but Islam gives instruction how to live this world to get easier to paradise, and if you are in marriage it is easier to get to paradise.

 

 

if it was true path , moses and abraham would also live in celibacy, are you maybe better than them? and they had wives...

 

i see what is the consuequnces of celibacy, we often read in news that priests are active in pedophilia, fornication and homosexuality.

 

when you supress your nature to have sex with your wife, then it explodes somewhere, and then poor kids are the victims in the church :no:

Abraham was to be forefather so obviously that means he would have to hav sex. Moses chose not to which is also a valid choice. You are acting as if by allowing to take a vow of celibacy we are forcing all Christians to be celibate. Jesus said nothing of the kind. He said it was profitable for getting closer to God, but that not all(Moses, Abraham, most of the human population) were not called to this.

 

On abuse. The rate of child abuse among priests is average compared to the percentage of child abuse among teachers. It's hardly caused by celibacy, any more than violence is caused by Islam.

 

On marriage getting us to heaven. Married people have a lot less time on their hands. It's harder to "pray without ceasing" when children need to be taken care of. Note: I'm not saying married people are all in hell. I'm just saying celibate people have a lot less time to grow closer to God.

Edited by Heavens Fire

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no he did not. how can you trust a man who did not have same teachings as jesus, jesus forbade to abolish old laws and paul abolished them.

 

if you read carefully what paul writes you will notice contradictions in his writings, so how can jesus give him contradictions????

 

 

 

does not matter what came first, the point is that it is not normal way of life.

 

 

the funny thing is, i can have sex with my wife, be good man pray to God, help others, enjoy life and get paradise in hereafter

 

and you can live in celibacy 1000 years and you believe that there is other gods beside God, like you believe that jesus is God, then punishment for such believe is hellfire wich God promised that such disbeliever will get in hereafter.

 

so you are punishing yourself in this life and hereafter, for what? for nothing

The funny thing is, that when I am celibate I will have time to read the bible, Quran, tanahk, Avesta, and the many other great religious books. I will be able to spend all time when I'm not doing Mass, confession or ministering to parishioners in prayer. Did you know Eastern Orthodox monks pray 7 times a day? And from what I know these are long prayers.

 

On the other hand I can have sex, care for my wife and children, raise them well in the truth of Christ and his Church and still manage to attend Mass regularly and pray around an hour a day.

 

Both ways of life have merit. One seperated us from the world to draw ourselves and others closer to God, while the other has us work to change the world from within and draw myself and others closer to God. They are both valid ways to serve God. All it comes down to is which I am called to. And as you seem to claim, if being celibate would make me miserable, then I obviously will not choose celibacy. :)

Edited by Heavens Fire

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more i read your post more i realize how superior Islam Islam, becuase i see how delusion is present among christians

 

even though God saysd in the quran, there is some benefits of alcohol for humansm, but harm if even greater than then benegfit, that is why it is forbidden. but tstill you christians follow your low desires and drink alcohol. even though it has little benefits dangers is far greater.

 

tell me something, what does it help you if alcohol help your blood circulasion and in meanwhile alcohol in your body helps cancer cell to be born and helps them to grow faster. that is why God forbid it.

 

 

 

absolutly not, you live in a dream world, my friend, where is logic that someone innocent is punished for youtr sins, do you christians have any logic left in your minds???+ for God sake :no:

 

how can you beleive such nonsence. what about i rob the bank and we put you in jail for that, would you like it.

 

 

 

so you will come closer to God via alcohol??? :no: ooh man....

 

christianity is most unlogical relgion i have ever seen in my life.

No I will not come closer to God through alcohol. However I definitely will not be pulled farther away by it, as long as I follow Jesus' teaching and remain sober.

 

You've used that jail analogy twice. As I said before, a better one would be that I willingly take your place on the condition that you stop robbing banks.

 

On cancer. Why did God only ban alcohol then? Both coal and leather dust have been shown to help cause cancer. Why isn't burning coal or working with leather forbidden?

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more i read your post more i realize how superior Islam Islam, becuase i see how delusion is present among christians

 

even though God saysd in the quran, there is some benefits of alcohol for humansm, but harm if even greater than then benegfit, that is why it is forbidden. but tstill you christians follow your low desires and drink alcohol. even though it has little benefits dangers is far greater.

 

tell me something, what does it help you if alcohol help your blood circulasion and in meanwhile alcohol in your body helps cancer cell to be born and helps them to grow faster. that is why God forbid it.

 

 

 

absolutly not, you live in a dream world, my friend, where is logic that someone innocent is punished for youtr sins, do you christians have any logic left in your minds???+ for God sake :no:

 

how can you beleive such nonsence. what about i rob the bank and we put you in jail for that, would you like it.

 

 

 

so you will come closer to God via alcohol??? :no: ooh man....

 

christianity is most unlogical relgion i have ever seen in my life.

No I will not come closer to God through alcohol. However I definitely will not be pulled farther away by it, as long as I follow Jesus' teaching and remain sober.

 

You've used that jail analogy twice. As I said before, a better one would be that I willingly take your place on the condition that you stop robbing banks.

 

On cancer. Why did God only ban alcohol then? Both coal and leather dust have been shown to help cause cancer. Why isn't burning coal or working with leather forbidden?

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to not eat pig is the part of the old mosaic law wich jesus did not break nor did he abolished and he forbade people to be abolshed.

 

Matthew 5:17-19

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

if jesus allowed pork then he would abolish the old law and he would eat pork, but he did not eat it at all, so how can you believe that he allowed you pork when God clearly said it is unclean.

 

 

 

absoluetly not true, beacuse even simple logic tells you that

 

let say , you drink alcohol and become drunk , you drive a car and cause car accident and kill people in the other car.

 

did evil come into you in form of alcohol? yes, yes and yes.

 

 

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

so how can you say that jesus abolished it? how can you believe that jesus allowed you something and he never eat it, why did he not show with his own example, that he allowed you pork, why did he not eat it??? beacuse he never allowwed you that.

you have missunderstood your bible completly, like allways.

 

how can you believe that pork is allowed to you, when God forbids it, jesus never said it is ok to eat pork, never ate it himself, he even said that he did not come to abolish the old law. and finally science tells you that pork is harmful to your health.

 

you dont care what bible says, nor God nor jesus, you only care what your stomach says, that is the real truth.

 

peace.

 

 

Jesus did not abolish the Law. That we can agree on. However he brought it to completion. Pork is now clean.

 

No it came in the form of my drunkenness. I chose to get drunk and now I will pay the penalty by regretting the deaths I caused as long as I live.

 

Something I find interesting is that you claim to obey the mosaic law yet break it. Here is an example.

 

The Word of God

 

Yahweh forbids camel meat:

 

"The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, ‘Say to the israelites: "Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud. There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you."’" Leviticus 11:1-4

 

"Do not eat any detestable thing. These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep. You may eat any animal that has a split hoof divided in two and that chews the cud. However, of those that chew the cud or that have a split hoof completely divided you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the coney. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a split hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you." Deuteronomy 14:3-7

 

The Torah also forbids certain types of water creatures, specifically those that do not have fins and scales (Leviticus 11:9-12; Deuteronomy 14:9-10).

 

Muhammad

 

The Quran permits Muslims to eat and sacrifice camels, something explicitly prohibited by Moses:

 

"Of the cattle are some for burden and some for meat: eat what Allah hath provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Satan: for he is to you and avowed enemy. (Take) eight (head of cattle) in (four) pairs: of sheep a pair, and of goats a pair; say, hath He forbidden the two males, or the two females, or (the young) which the wombs of the two females enclose? Tell me with knowledge if ye are truthful: Of camels a pair, and of oxen a pair; say, hath He forbidden the two males, or the two females, or (the young) which the wombs of the two females enclose? - Were ye present when Allah ordered you such a thing? But who doth more wrong than one who invents a lie against Allah, to lead astray men without knowledge? For Allah guideth not people who do wrong. Say: 'I find not in the Message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's'. But (even so), if a person is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- thy Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone: this in recompense for their willful disobedience: for We are True (in Our ordinances). If they accuse thee of falsehood, say: "Your Lord is full of mercy all-embracing; but from people in guilt never will His wrath be turned back." S. 6:142-147

 

"The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the signs from Allah: in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful." S. 22:36

 

The ahadith state:

 

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle offered four Rakat of Zuhr prayer at Medina and we were in his company, and two Rakat of the Asr prayer at Dhul-Hulaifa and then passed the night there till it was dawn; then he rode, and when he reached Al-Baida', he praised and glorified Allah and said Takbir (i.e. Alhamdu-lillah and Subhanallah(1) and Allahu-Akbar). Then he and the people along with him recited Talbiya with the intention of performing Hajj and Umra. When we reached (Mecca) he ordered us to finish the lhram (after performing the Umra) (only those who had no Hadi (animal for sacrifice) with them were asked to do so) till the day of Tarwiya that is 8th Dhul-Hijja when they assumed Ihram for Hajj. The Prophet sacrificed many camels (slaughtering them) with his own hands while standing. While Allah's Apostle was in Medina he sacrificed two horned rams black and white in color in the Name of Allah." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 623)

 

Narrated 'Ali:

The Prophet sent me to supervise the (slaughtering of) Budn (Hadi camels) and ordered me to distribute their meat, and then he ordered me to distribute their covering sheets and skins. 'Ali added, "The Prophet ordered me to supervise the slaughtering (of the Budn) and not to give anything (of their bodies) to the butcher as wages for slaughtering." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 774)

 

Furthermore, Islamic tradition claims that ALL water creatures are permissible!

 

Lawful to you is all water-game, and what the sea brings forth, as a provision for you [who are settled] as well as for travellers, although you are forbidden to hunt on land while you are in the state of pilgrimage. And be conscious of God, unto whom you shall be gathered. S. 5:96 Muhammad Asad

 

It is He Who has made the sea subject, that ye may eat thereof flesh that is fresh and tender, and that ye may extract therefrom ornaments to wear; and thou seest the ships therein that plough the waves, that ye may seek (thus) of the bounty of Allah and that ye may be grateful. S. 16:14

 

Imam Malik records:

 

Yahya related to me from Malik from Safwan ibn Sulaym from Said ibn Salama of the Bani Azraq from al-Mughira ibn Abi Burda of the tribe of Bani Abd ad-Dar that he had heard Abu Hurayra speak about a man who came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said, "Messenger of Allah! We travel by sea and we do not carry much fresh water with us so if we do wudu with it we go thirsty. Can we do wudu with seawater?" The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, replied, "Its water is pure, and its dead creatures are halal." (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 2, Number 2.3.12)

 

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abd ar-Rahman ibn Abi Hurayra asked Abdullah ibn Umar about eating what was cast up by the sea and he forbade him to eat it. Then Abdullah turned and asked for a Qur'an, and read, "The game of the sea and its flesh are halal for you." Nafi added, "Abdullah ibn Umar sent me to Abdar-Rahman Ibn Abi Hurayra to say that there was no harm in eating it." (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 25, Number 25.3.9)

 

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman that some people from al-Jar came to Marwan ibn al-Hakam and asked him about eating what was cast up by the sea. He said, "There is no harm in eating it." Marwan said, "Go to Zayd ibn Thabit and Abu Hurayra and ask them about it, then come to me and tell me what they say." They went to them and asked them, and they both said, "There is no harm in eating it " They returned to Marwan and told him. Marwan said, "I told you."

Malik said that there was no harm in eating fish caught by magians, because the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "In the sea's water is purity, and that which is dead in it is halal."

Malik said, "If it is eaten when it is dead, there is no harm in who catches it." (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 25, Number 25.3.12)

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Andalusi,

     Greetings.  Paul didn't write the Gospel of Matthew.  He wrote the epistles and letters to various Churches but not the 4 Gospels themselves.  As I sit here writing this post I'm going through the Gospels before me as I see it in the New Catholic Answer Bible.  As I read the scholarly introduction to Matthew  it  is contributed to Matthew yet the true author may never be known at least not this side of the veil.  I The bible scholars believe it was incorporates but of Mark and a document called Q.  Does this mean Paul wrote it?  Not likely but all things are possible just some are highly improbable.  I then moved on to the Gospel of Mark that is actually considered by scholars to be the first of the Gospels.  While it too is anonymous the scholars and early church fathers Papias attribute it to John Mark a cousin of Barnabas.   Either shortly before or shortly after 70 A.D. possibly in Syria.  The Gospel of Luke is actually attributed to Luke and dated to by most scholars to 80-90 A.D. and though he is attributed to be a Syrian from Antioch some scholars believe he was a non Palestinian writing to a Gentile Christian audience.  The Gospel of John the one that is the most inflammatory here at this forum at least is attributed to an anonymous author attributed or to John of Zebedee through tradition, but more likely an eyewitness testimony to the events due to the accuracy of the detail in the Gospel itself.

     The Pauline Letters and epistles authorship is not seriously questioned and range from 51 A.D. to 67 A.D.   

Could Paul have written the Gospels?  Due to the style each was written in its not likely. 

 

Peace be with you.        

 

no, it was not Paul who wrote them

 

you dont understand what i am saying man.

 

jesus said i forbid you to abolish the laws wich jesus himself followed. Paul came after jesus and abolished those laws, and then you christians follow Paul beacuse you in old laws it is not ok to eat pork, drink alcohol, and you have to be circumsized, you dont follow jesus on these , you follow what paul tells you. that is how christianity was created, by abolishing old laws new relgion was created. christianity is not the religion of jesus.

Edited by andalusi

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