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"For if you love those (only) who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?" - Matthew 5:46

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Gods Servant, on 05 Mar 2015 - 03:18, said:

"For if you love those (only) who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?" - Matthew 5:46

God is not a tax collector, neither is Jesus.

 

Tax collectors will surely love those that love them, but who does?

 

Surely God will love those that love Him, and if you don't love those that love you then what are you?

 

But of course you should not love only those that love you.

 

"You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and pagans; and you will find the nearest of them in love (affection) to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant". (Surah Al Maidah 5:82)

 

Our recompense for love of anyone and God is only with God.

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"For if you love those (only) who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?" - Matthew 5:46

I don't like to take Bible verses out of context:

 

Love for Enemies

 

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 

 

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 

 

45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 

 

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 

 

47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 

 

48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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It looks to me as if the reason you say Jesus did not die on the cross is dogma not fact. Even BartErhman, often cited by Nuslimx does not subscribe to this u historical notion

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If Jesus did not die on the cross, there would be no need of the Virgin birth. The Quran confirms the Virgin birth as a fact, it doesn't explain the need for it.

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If Jesus did not die on the cross, there would be no need of the Virgin birth. The Quran confirms the Virgin birth as a fact, it doesn't explain the need for it.

 

How do you see the virgin birth related to dying on the cross? why do you think the first proves the second?

We will all die sometime. Jesus too will die, but not before his second coming to earth to save us all.

Do you believe in his second coming to earth at all?

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How do you see the virgin birth related to dying on the cross? why do you think the first proves the second?

We will all die sometime. Jesus too will die, but not before his second coming to earth to save us all.

Do you believe in his second coming to earth at all?

The Virgin birth ensured Jesus was born without sin, only a sinless being would fit the need of atoning death on the cross. Besides it was prophesied that Jesus would die an earthly death that way and rise on the third day thus conquering death and sin. Jesus will not ever die, He is eternal, as Gods word He always existed and will always do so. He will return but not to save everyone, He will return to judge both the living and the dead. He will know His own. That's not to say everyone will not have the chance to repent of the error of their ways, well at least I like to think so. Jesus did say He is the Way, the Truth and the Life eternal, I believe He meant what He said as do billions of Christians worldwide.

 

I accept you have different ideas, and believe you can pay for your own sins and make yourself right with God by your own efforts. Christians accept that we can never do enough to save ourselves only God can save us. Jesus said our good deeds were nothing more than a pile of dirty rags before a Holy God.

 

Peace to you Dot, hope your Ramadan and Eid was everything you hoped for and you are blessed.

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Thanks Tunisia for your good wishes.

All humans are born sinless, not just those born of a virgin mother.

You keep confusing a prophet with his creator.

 

I can't believe you Christians still hold to such hilarious ideas. Do you really think, in your sane mind, that new born babies are born full of sins? or that an authentic heavenly message/prophet/god would state that your good deeds are nothing but dirty rags? what kind of a motive is that to encourage man to do good?

 

Please use your head. Save yourself from following corrupted books. Find a real religion to meet your creator with, before its too late. This is my sincere little advice to you.

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Dot I have no wish to fall out just accept we see things differently. I can't believe you still don't understand the nature of sin. Surely some christian at some point on this forum must have explained your misconception of Jesus being sinless. Christians don't believe babies are born full of sins!!! What a ridiculous idea. However, we are all born with a sin nature which is quite a different thing. We know the Bible is correct on this point because the evidence is in all of us, we are ALL sinners. The ONLY sinless being to walk this earth is Jesus. If He were not sinless then He could not have finished the work He was sent to do, which was to atone for mankind and make us righteous before God.

 

Trouble is with muslims you take every thing literally, for me this stance takes the spirituality out of worship, and you end up following a religion obeying rules that you think can save you. When of course only God can save you. You don't understand what Jesus meant when He said our good deeds are nothing but dirty rags to Holy God, it does not mean or imply we should not bother to do good to others, in fact Jesus also said "Treat others as you would wish to be treated" which obviously means treat others with kindness and charity, (which includes enemies) I can't think of many who would wish to be treated any differently. We should do good deeds and treat others with kindness because we know such behaviour is pleasing to God, we cannot hope or should expect any reward for doing so.

 

I'm not confused about my beliefs, but you may be. :)

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There is nothing hilarious about sin.

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All humans are born sinless, not just those born of a virgin mother.

You keep confusing a prophet with his creator. I can't believe you Christians still hold to such hilarious ideas. Do you really think, in your sane mind, that new born babies are born full of sins? or that an authentic heavenly message/prophet/god would state that your good deeds are nothing but dirty rags? what kind of a motive is that to encourage man to do good?

 

Please use your head. Save yourself from following corrupted books. Find a real religion to meet your creator with, before its too late. This is my sincere little advice to you.

I think you have a defective idea as to what Christians regard as original sin - we can discuss it if you like? However, it seems to me that Muslims also have defective ideas as to sin itself.

 

Consider the verse - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6). This verse of course was written at a time when the israelites had become so self-righteous that they thought God would do their bidding. In the same way people who find the verse objectionable have a sense of their own piety and little understanding of the perfect, burning holiness of God. In the following verses we see how a righteous man comes to understand how holy God is in reality. Just read them carefully and understand how great and holy God is. Unless you understand this you'll never feel the weight of your own sin.

 

Job 1:1 (MEV) "There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil."

 

Job 4:17 (MEV) "Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker?"

 

Job 9:1-3, 20 (MEV) Then Job answered: “Truly, I know it is so, but how can a man be righteous with God? If one would dispute with Him, he cannot answer Him once in a thousand times. V20 Though I were righteous, my own mouth would condethough I were perfect, it would prove me perverse.

 

Job 42:5-6 (MEV) "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

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I think you have a defective idea as to what Christians regard as original sin - we can discuss it if you like? However, it seems to me that Muslims also have defective ideas as to sin itself.

Consider the verse - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6). This verse of course was written at a time when the israelites had become so self-righteous that they thought God would do their bidding. In the same way people who find the verse objectionable have a sense of their own piety and little understanding of the perfect, burning holiness of God. In the following verses we see how a righteous man comes to understand how holy God is in reality. Just read them carefully and understand how great and holy God is. Unless you understand this you'll never feel the weight of your own sin.

Job 1:1 (MEV) "There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil."

Job 4:17 (MEV) "Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker?"

Job 9:1-3, 20 (MEV) Then Job answered: “Truly, I know it is so, but how can a man be righteous with God? If one would dispute with Him, he cannot answer Him once in a thousand times. V20 Though I were righteous, my own mouth would condethough I were perfect, it would prove me perverse.

Job 42:5-6 (MEV) "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

Greetings Tanker, I don't believe muslims understand fully the nature of sin or the impact it has upon mankind or a Holy God. I think they see some sins as "mistakes". Some even say prophets are sinless. The very idea that ones good deeds can be used as some kind of bargaining chip in regards to eternal salvation or earn one "brownie points" for me has to be a non starter. I just don't get it.

 

Don't think Dot will wish to discuss it tho. ;)

Edited by Tunisia

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Don't mean to barge in here but a curiosity struck me today....

 

Romans kept masses of paperwork as did the Pharisees and Jewish scholars of the day. There is a Jewish scholar who documents Jesus (pbuh) but there is no actual documentation of a crucifixion even though there is documentation of an uprising around the same time period....

 

Also while I am on this tangent what is the earliest anyone can trace back the use of the crucifix as a symbol of Christianity because if I remember my Christian history as well as I think the first symbol of early Christianity was the fish not the cross and was around for a considerable number of years.

 

why is it that in the Old Testament there is constant mention of God giving salvation and pleas to God for salvation but in the New Testament it teaches that ( under Paul's epistles only ) that salvation is strictly through faith whereas Jesus (pbuh) taught that salvation was through following of the commandments, a teaching that was consistent with the old faith.

 

Also why is it that contrary to the Old Testament the New Testament teaches not only to be obedient to government but to not rebel?

 

To me personally, if one is seeking truth and using logic it would seem that something is inconsistent.

 

Oh and before I forget this .... before Augustine has a chance to jump in with his uber Catholicism .... as far as I am concerned the early fathers of Christianity were people like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Peter not the people who came several decades later.

 

Just some things to ponder on

The first use of the cross as Christianity was by Constantine.

 

Constantine was attempting to create a church based worship of a deity, rather than a spiritual community.

 

http://www.crosscrucifix.com/storyhome.htm

 

Constantine: The Great

 

The use of a physical cross as a sign and symbol emerged gradually in Christian practices.

 

While the theology of the cross is taught by Paul and the sign of the cross for baptism and protection is reported fairly early, the use of a physical cross rarely appears before the fourth century.(1)

 

At that time, two events involving Constantine led to the use of a physical cross or cross form by the state, the emerging church, and Christians.

 

In the first event, Constantine reports having a vision of a sign, either while sleeping or seen in the sky, that came to be identified with Christ. With the vision and dream he saw the words, In Hoc Signo Vinces, "In this sign conquer", and assured his victory over Maxentius. He placed the sign at the top of his standard and on the shields of his men and won the battle of Milvian Bridge outside of Rome in 312 . (2) This victory made Constantine the emperor of the West. He surprised everyone by openly supporting Christianity. (3)

 

This sign, a Chi Rho, one of the monograms standing for the word Christ in Greek (XPIETOE), replaced the eagle as the military standard for the legions of the Roman Army. Known as the labarum, a term of unknown origin, over time this sign was gradually replaced by the cross.

 

The second event is the legend of the discovery of the original cross of Christ by Constantine’s mother, Helena.

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Oops, sorry, I guess I answered a really old post.

 

I was reading the thread, and didn't realize this thread had lasted three years.

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Greetings Tanker, I don't believe muslims understand fully the nature of sin or the impact it has upon mankind or a Holy God. I think they see some sins as "mistakes". Some even say prophets are sinless. The very idea that ones good deeds can be used as some kind of bargaining chip in regards to eternal salvation or earn one "brownie points" for me has to be a non starter. I just don't get it.

Don't think Dot will wish to discuss it tho. ;)

 

 

James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

 

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

 

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Edited by Gnosis

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This is the way Early Christians viewed the importance of Deeds and Works.

 

http://www.earlychurch.com/unconditional-love.php

 

 

 

LOVE WITHOUT CONDITION

 

A love without condition - Early Church History

 

At no other time in the history of Christianity did love so characterize the entire church as it did in the first three centuries. And Roman society took note. Tertullian reported that the Romans would exclaim, “See how they love one another!”

 

Justin Martyr sketched Christian love this way: “We who used to value the acquisition of wealth and possessions more than anything else now bring what we have into a common fund and share it with anyone who needs it. We used to hate and destroy one another and refused to associate with people of another race or country. Now, because of Christ, we live together with such people and pray for our enemies.”

 

Clement, describing the person who has come to know God, wrote, “He impoverishes himself out of love, so that he is certain he may never overlook a brother in need, especially if he knows he can bear poverty better than his brother. He likewise considers the pain of another as his own pain. And if he suffers any hardship because of having given out of his own poverty, he does not complain.”

 

When a devastating plague swept across the ancient world in the third century, Christians were the only ones who cared for the sick, which they did at the risk of contracting the plague themselves. Meanwhile, pagans were throwing infected members of their own families into the streets even before they died, in order to protect themselves from the plague...

 

As one Christian told the Romans, “We love one another with a mutual love because we do not know how to hate.” If Christians today made such a statement to the world, would the world believe it?

 

The love of the early Christians wasn't limited simply to their fellow believers. Christians also lovingly helped non-believers: the poor, the orphans, the elderly, the sick, the shipwrecked—even their persecutors. Jesus had said, “Love your enemies ... and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you” (Matt. 5:44). The early Christians accepted this statement as a command from their Lord, rather than as an ideal that couldn't be actually practiced in real life.

 

Lactantius wrote, “If we all derive our origin from one man, whom God created, we are plainly all of one family. Therefore it must be considered an abomination to hate another human, no matter how guilty he may be. For this reason, God has decreed that we should hate no one, but that we should eliminate hatred. So we can comfort our enemies by reminding them of our mutual relationship. For if we have all been given life from the same God, what else are we but brothers? ... Because we are all brothers, God teaches us to never do evil to one another, but only good—giving aid to those who are oppressed and experiencing hardship, and giving food to the hungry.”

Edited by Gnosis

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Greetings Gnosis, just to be clear I did not say good deeds are not a requirement of being a christian, of course they are, which your posts also show. I wanted to be clear to Dot that christians do not do good deeds for any hope of possible benefit or rewards in the next life, good deeds are worthless as bargaining chips and do not cancel out or mitigate "bad" deeds. We can only be made righteous by Gods provision, not by our own efforts.

 

The message is love, and through love our good deeds are born, for our families friends and enemies. As God is love when we reflect love towards others through our behaviours we are reflecting our love back to God. It's so very simple, yet for so many in this world we live in fail to understand it and even those who do at times fail to act upon it. That's the state of mankind tho. :)

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Thanks Tunisia for your good wishes.

All humans are born sinless, not just those born of a virgin mother.

You keep confusing a prophet with his creator.

 

I can't believe you Christians still hold to such hilarious ideas. Do you really think, in your sane mind, that new born babies are born full of sins? or that an authentic heavenly message/prophet/god would state that your good deeds are nothing but dirty rags? what kind of a motive is that to encourage man to do good?

 

Please use your head. Save yourself from following corrupted books. Find a real religion to meet your creator with, before its too late. This is my sincere little advice to you.

Greetings Gnosis, just to be clear I did not say good deeds are not a requirement of being a christian, of course they are, which your posts also show. I wanted to be clear to Dot that christians do not do good deeds for any hope of possible benefit or rewards in the next life, good deeds are worthless as bargaining chips and do not cancel out or mitigate "bad" deeds. We can only be made righteous by Gods provision, not by our own efforts.

The message is love, and through love our good deeds are born, for our families friends and enemies. As God is love when we reflect love towards others through our behaviours we are reflecting our love back to God. It's so very simple, yet for so many in this world we live in fail to understand it and even those who do at times fail to act upon it. That's the state of mankind tho. :)

 

 

I didn't see Dot talking about using good deeds as "bargaining chips" or using them to trade for bad behavior.

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Isaiah 64:6King James Version (KJV)

 

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

This is the Old Testament. That is Jewish, not Christian.

 

According to my Baptist upbringing, as a child, Christians don't follow the Old Testament teachings.

 

This seems to have changed with the rise of the Dominionists and Mosaic Law, but it wasn't a part of mainstream Christian theology when I was growing up.

 

Book of Isaiah

The Book of Isaiah is the first of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible.

Edited by Gnosis

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While it is widely accepted that the book of Isaiah is rooted in a historic prophet called Isaiah, who lived in the Kingdom of Judah during the 8th century BCE, it is also widely accepted that this prophet did not write the entire book of Isaiah.

 

Trito-Isaiah/Third Isaiah (chapters 55–66):

A collection of oracles by unknown prophets in the years immediately after the return from Babylon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah

 

 

These observations led scholars to the conclusion that the book can be conveniently divided into three sections, labelled Proto-Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, and Trito-Isaiah.[26] Early modern-period scholars treated Isaiah as independent collections of sayings by three individual prophets, brought together at a much later period, about 70 BCE, to form the present book.[27] The second half of the 20th century saw a marked change in approach, and scholars have begun to detect a deliberate arrangement of materials to give the book an overarching theological message.[28]

 

The composition history of Isaiah reflects a major difference in the way authorship was regarded in ancient israel and in modern societies: the ancients did not regard it as inappropriate to supplement an existing work while remaining anonymous.[29] While the authors are anonymous, it is plausible that all of them were priests, and the book may thus reflect Priestly concerns, in opposition to the increasingly successful reform movement of the Deuteronomists.

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I didn't see Dot talking about using good deeds as "bargaining chips" or using them to trade for bad behavior.

I was making a general comparison, about sin as understood between the two religions.

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Isaiah 64:6King James Version (KJV)

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This is the Old Testament. That is Jewish, not Christian.

According to my Baptist upbringing, as a child, Christians don't follow the Old Testament teachings.

This seems to have changed with the rise of the Dominionists and Mosaic Law, but it wasn't a part of mainstream Christian theology when I was growing up.

Book of Isaiah

The Book of Isaiah is the first of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible.

Maybe baptists don't use the Old Testament much? That's a shame. The Old Testament is an accepted part of the Holy Bible which Christians take as their scripture. Whereas the Jews do not accept the New Testament as far as I know the Old Testament has been accepted as Christian scripture. After all the Quran contains both Jewish and Christian teachings. We share many of the prophets in fact if it wasn't for the Jewish prophets Isaiah et all there wouldn't be much in the way of scripture to talk of. The Mosaic Law is a different thing, as it was intended for a certain people (the israelites). As the Gentiles where never under the Law then we have no reason to stick to it. Accept Gods moral Laws, which of cause are meant for all mankind.

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Maybe baptists don't use the Old Testament much? That's a shame. The Old Testament is an accepted part of the Holy Bible which Christians take as their scripture. Whereas the Jews do not accept the New Testament as far as I know the Old Testament has been accepted as Christian scripture. After all the Quran contains both Jewish and Christian teachings. We share many of the prophets in fact if it wasn't for the Jewish prophets Isaiah et all there wouldn't be much in the way of scripture to talk of. The Mosaic Law is a different thing, as it was intended for a certain people (the israelites). As the Gentiles where never under the Law then we have no reason to stick to it. Accept Gods moral Laws, which of cause are meant for all mankind.

The Old Testament is the history and myth of the Jewish people. I'm not Jewish. The Old Testament is called The Hebrew Bible for a reason. One of my first lessons in Sunday School was that Jesus freed us from Jewish law.

 

If I wished to be Jewish, I would study the Old Testament and the Torah. I'm not Jewish, so I don't.

 

I'm not Baptist anymore, but I was brought up in the Baptist beliefs, so I do know that the Old Testament is not part of most mainstream church's beliefs.

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The Old Testament is the history and myth of the Jewish people. I'm not Jewish. The Old Testament is called The Hebrew Bible for a reason. One of my first lessons in Sunday School was that Jesus freed us from Jewish law.

If I wished to be Jewish, I would study the Old Testament and the Torah. I'm not Jewish, so I don't.

I'm not Baptist anymore, but I was brought up in the Baptist beliefs, so I do know that the Old Testament is not part of most mainstream church's beliefs.

The primary sacred text of Christianity is the Bible. Its made of two parts: the Old Testament, which is almost identical to the Jewish Bible, almost but not quite.. and the New Testament, a collection of Christian writings that includes biographies of Jesus Christ and the apostles, like the Apostle Paul, letters to new churches, and an apocalyptic work.

 

The names given to these two parts of the Bible are significant. The word testament means "covenant," so the notion of old and new testaments reflects the Christian perspective that the Church is the successor to israel as God's chosen people. The Old Testament is viewed as foundational, authoritative, and relevant, and is read and cherished by Christians along with the New Testament. But it is also regarded as having been superceded and fulfilled by the new testament (covenant) God has made with the Church. MOST christians value the Old Testament and use it, the prophets give an invaluable contribution to knowledge of the Christ and in Him Gods provision of a saviour.

 

So are you a muslim now? :)

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The primary sacred text of Christianity is the Bible. Its made of two parts: the Old Testament, which is almost identical to the Jewish Bible, almost but not quite.. and the New Testament, a collection of Christian writings that includes biographies of Jesus Christ and the apostles, like the Apostle Paul, letters to new churches, and an apocalyptic work.

The names given to these two parts of the Bible are significant. The word testament means "covenant," so the notion of old and new testaments reflects the Christian perspective that the Church is the successor to israel as God's chosen people. The Old Testament is viewed as foundational, authoritative, and relevant, and is read and cherished by Christians along with the New Testament. But it is also regarded as having been superceded and fulfilled by the new testament (covenant) God has made with the Church. MOST christians value the Old Testament and use it, the prophets give an invaluable contribution to knowledge of the Christ and in Him Gods provision of a saviour.

So are you a muslim now? :)

No, I am a Christian, and always have been.

 

One of the problems of being in a closed (Christians) community, is that they believe that most other Christians are just like them. I have been to sermons with the Baptists, Lutherans, Methodist, the Brethren, and quite a few others; and for the most part it didn't come up. The only churches that I attended that "valued" the Old Testament, and found it relevant; were churches that followed Dominionist Evangelical theology, and those are a fraction of the Christians, and getting smaller.

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