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[at]tanker 

[at]Tunisia

 

thanks, for your replays, I'll reply you back as soon as I can.

Waiting waiting the suspense is terrible... ;)

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Waiting waiting the suspense is terrible... ;)

 

It seems, you got a good training to enhance your patience.... :cool:

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It seems, you got a good training to enhance your patience.... :cool:

 

If it weren't for God's grace I would have gone crazy by now, lol.

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It's been so long I've almost forgotten the topic. :)

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Does it ever occur to you that maybe it's the Quran that's fabricated? Let's face it, it never agrees with and Bible story or events does it?

 

Looking at Jeremiah the verse CLEARLY states 'WE HAVE THE WORD OFTHE LORD' you see this was written when Judea was being invaded and the scribes were telling the people everything would be alright because they were God' people. So what Jeremiah is doing is reminding them that there are blessing and curses in the law.

 

Trying to draw conclusion from an 14c picture is an absurdity.

 

Your Allah is a single person God and there is a saying about such a God - 'strip down God and you make him lean and then you must strip down his salvation and make it mean. Instead of a life bursting with love, joy ant fellowship, all you will be left with is the watery gruel of religeon'.

 

I ask you is not that Islam, it has a God who only has time for Muslims?

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[at]tanker

[at]Tunisia

 

thanks, for your replays, I'll reply you back as soon as I can.

Tis been a long time and the grass grows tall, yet still no reply :(

 

It's ok to say you don't have the answers, but when you say you'll be back it kinda builds up the suspense ;)

Edited by Tunisia

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I ask you is not that Islam, it has a God who only has time for Muslims?

 

Hi Tanker,

 

Where will I end up if I never accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior? Will I go to heaven, hell, or some other place? 

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Well these things are in God's hands but to be forgiven we need a God that can combine Justice AND mercy. Justice implies punishment for wrong doing for a just God cannot overlook wrongdoing so there will be consequences, a separation from God. But there is a way out - would you like to discuss that?

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Hi Tanker,

 

Where will I end up if I never accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior? Will I go to heaven, hell, or some other place? 

 

Well these things are in God's hands but to be forgiven we need a God that can combine Justice AND mercy. Justice implies punishment for wrong doing for a just God cannot overlook wrongdoing so there will be consequences, a separation from God. But there is a way out - would you like to discuss that?

 

Thanks for your reply Tanker. I understand now. 

 

Prior to this, my understanding was that the Blood of Christ would save a person from the punishment of all sins.

 

Now I realize that there are conditions to this salvation. Although God can forgive anything, there is a considerable possibility that wrongdoing/sins will be punished. The biggest sin/wrongdoing seems to be infidelity/being separated from God.

 

This issue isn't that dissimilar with Islam. Watch the video. 

 

[VIDEO]

[/VIDEO] Edited by najimuddin

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Couldn't see any link for a video in your post.

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Couldn't see any link for a video in your post.

It was posted using my laptop. I just noticed that I can't see it on my phone. I'll try posting it here using my phone.

 

[VIDEO]

[/VIDEO]

 

It seems like I can only get the link to work from my phone. It won't embed. The link will lead you to the video.

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The problem with the vidio is that it never explains how God's justice is satisfied. From the video it appears that in Islam one can earn forgiveness by repentance so it's not God's mercy is it? To use an analogy, if you owe me £100 but cannot pay it back then the ONLY way I can forgive you is by accepting the loss. It really makes no difference if you are very sorry and show abject repentance, I'm still out of pocket.

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The problem with the vidio is that it never explains how God's justice is satisfied. From the video it appears that in Islam one can earn forgiveness by repentance so it's not God's mercy is it? To use an analogy, if you owe me £100 but cannot pay it back then the ONLY way I can forgive you is by accepting the loss. It really makes no difference if you are very sorry and show abject repentance, I'm still out of pocket.

 

I think the video, as a whole, speaks for itself. That's my opinion. I agree to disagree with you on this.

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Gods mercy is mentioned so many times yet by the end of the clip I'm no nearer understanding how this mercy works in practice.

 

if God is the most Holy of Holies, then His divine Holiness must demand a penalty for sins against that very Holiness, which is after all the very essence of God. I cannot see how God arbitrarily forgiving sins with no penalty needed satisfies Gods holiness. Sin comes with consequences... Not just for the sinner.. Those consequences have to be answered for.

 

It also says God is the most forgiving and forgives all sins. Yet, what of shirk? I am lead to believe the sin of shirk is the only sin Allah does not forgive. If Allah does not forgive the sin of shirk then surely then Allah ceases to be the Most merciful. I wish you guys would think on this stuff.

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Gods mercy is mentioned so many times yet by the end of the clip I'm no nearer understanding how this mercy works in practice.

 

if God is the most Holy of Holies, then His divine Holiness must demand a penalty for sins against that very Holiness, which is after all the very essence of God. I cannot see how God arbitrarily forgiving sins with no penalty needed satisfies Gods holiness. Sin comes with consequences... Not just for the sinner.. Those consequences have to be answered for.

 

It also says God is the most forgiving and forgives all sins. Yet, what of shirk? I am lead to believe the sin of shirk is the only sin Allah does not forgive. If Allah does not forgive the sin of shirk then surely then Allah ceases to be the Most merciful. I wish you guys would think on this stuff.

 

Hi Tunisia,

 

My understanding from both your and brother Tanker's replies is that the Blood of Christ does not save everyone. My sin of disbelief is not cleansed by the Blood of Christ. In relation to this, I am a flagrant sinner and God is Just and Holy. If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, it is highly likely that I will be deprived of His Mercy and punished.

 

The replies that I have received also seems to imply that there are other sins aside from disbelief that are most likely to require punishment due to God's Holiness and Justness. For clarification: Does this apply to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior also? 

 

In light of the above, it's as I mentioned in a previous post: The doctrine you have propounded in relation to Christianity isn't that dissimilar to Islam in this aspect. There are warnings of possible punishments due to committing sins, some of them severe.  

 

In Islam, the Lord can arbitrarily do whatever He wants and He will still be Just. He can remediate a situation to where the victim of a crime/wrongdoing will be compensated in such a way that the victim will happily and willfully forgive and forget the related transgression. He can also forgive and forget - at His discretion - any transgression made against Him. The Lord is so merciful; All a person needs to do to get forgiveness is feel sincere remorse in his/her heart - and the Lord will not hesitate. And, similarly to the doctrine of Christianity you mentioned, He can also exact punishment for certain sins if He see fit.

 

The crux of the matter, as I see it, is as follows:

 

Your premise is that Allah is not the Most Merciful if He does not forgive shirk. 

 

However, you have also made explicitly clear that the Christian doctrine of mercy doesn't include a disbeliever like me. In addition to that, there are almost definite punishments of other sins for going against God's Holiness. As you stated, "Consequences have to be answered for".

 

In both cases there are consequences for wrongdoing. In Islam, however, it's much easier to be forgiven.

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Thanks for your reply Tanker. I understand now. 

 

Prior to this, my understanding was that the Blood of Christ would save a person from the punishment of all sins.

 

Now I realize that there are conditions to this salvation. Although God can forgive anything, there is a considerable possibility that wrongdoing/sins will be punished. The biggest sin/wrongdoing seems to be infidelity/being separated from God.

 

 

From a Catholic prospective, a non-Christian would need to have invincible ignorance in order to be saved. In other words, it was not their fault they never got to know about Christ as their Lord and Saviour. However, there may also be mitigating circumstances which our Lord will consider, psychological etc. In the end, we don’t know who will be saved as we cannot read other people’s hearts, neither is it out business, it is for God alone to judge. Our job is share the gospel by deed first and foremost and by word.

 

Here is the catch – even the non-Christians are saved by the merits of Christ. The merits he obtained for them is applied to them. There is no salvation outside of Christ.

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When we speak of the blood of Jesus we are essentially referring to his sufferings because of our sins. Do you not understand that even the innocent can suffer? The point is that if your Allah can do whatever he likes then he has no character that can be relied upon such a God acts on impulse not holiness.

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Allah can do whatever he likes then he has no character that can be relied upon such a God acts on impulse not holiness.

Interesting point...

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Hi Tunisia,

 

My understanding from both your and brother Tanker's replies is that the Blood of Christ does not save everyone. My sin of disbelief is not cleansed by the Blood of Christ. In relation to this, I am a flagrant sinner and God is Just and Holy. If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, it is highly likely that I will be deprived of His Mercy and punished.

 

Where did I imply the Blood of Christ does not save everyone? It's Gods will we are ALL saved, God does not wish for ONE single soul to perish because we are all precious to Him.. It's about spiritual life, everybody who is born on the planet earth is dead spiritually. Now, the question is that, if I am dead, how could I save myself? The dead man cannot do any good work. Every human being is born spiritually dead, there is no way to say that salvation is through good deeds, because dead people cannot do good deeds at all. The only way for the salvation of the dead man is to get life. And who grants us life, but Jesus Christ? He is the life, once we have Jesus Christ in our heart, we are assured eternal life will be imparted to us. The wages of sin is death. And Jesus died on the cross to pay that penalty for our sins. And because He is our creator, then His value is more than His creation. He can redeem all mankind. This is the plan of salvation in the Bible. It's open to all, a free choice.. I accept it because I know as a sinner I can do nothing to save myself I can only rely on Gods provision because only God has that power. I see that provision in the blood of Jesus. You believe you can maybe contribute something to mitigate your sin through good deeds in your lifetime, but you can never know, with any surety if your good deeds are ever enough.

 

The replies that I have received also seems to imply that there are other sins aside from disbelief that are most likely to require punishment due to God's Holiness and Justness. For clarification: Does this apply to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior also? 

Is disbelief a sin? God gave us free will to choose belief in Him or not.. Why then would He judge unfavourably a person choosing disbelief if this was a choice given to them by God Himself? Is disbelief a sin in Islam? Accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour is eternal life, where we spend that eternal life is what we are judged on. It's no good accepting Jesus as your Saviour and then lead a life of sin and debauchery expecting to be given a free pass to Paradise. It doesn't work like that! To accept Jesus into your life is to live through Him, avoiding sin, having compassion for others and above all a love for your fellow man even those who may seem to be undeserving. Of course a person will sin, because it's our nature to do so. So we also have to be repentant and to be so sincerely.

 

In light of the above, it's as I mentioned in a previous post: The doctrine you have propounded in relation to Christianity isn't that dissimilar to Islam in this aspect. There are warnings of possible punishments due to committing sins, some of them severe.  

That repentance is needed yes, there are similarities. Sins must be paid for.. Because God cannot go against His divine nature because God is always consistent, so Gods Justice must be served as His mercy is shown through His love for us. I

 

In Islam, the Lord can arbitrarily do whatever He wants and He will still be Just. He can remediate a situation to where the victim of a crime/wrongdoing will be compensated in such a way that the victim will happily and willfully forgive and forget the related transgression. He can also forgive and forget - at His discretion - any transgression made against Him. The Lord is so merciful; All a person needs to do to get forgiveness is feel sincere remorse in his/her heart - and the Lord will not hesitate. And, similarly to the doctrine of Christianity you mentioned, He can also exact punishment for certain sins if He see fit.

I don't see how God can arbitrarily do whatever He wants at the expense of His Justice and mercy. One or the other would be compromised. I don't see that is possible if God is Holy. Forgive and forget?? All sin comes down to one basic thing..disobedience against God. So any sin is an affront against Gods holiness. Yet you see it is ok that God may simply brush such a sin aside! This seems to me to devalue Gods holiness. The Bible teaches that God abhors ALL sin. To ignore any sins or brush them aside goes against Gods divine nature, God would no longer be consistent.

 

The crux of the matter, as I see it, is as follows:

 

Your premise is that Allah is not the Most Merciful if He does not forgive shirk. 

 

However, you have also made explicitly clear that the Christian doctrine of mercy doesn't include a disbeliever like me. In addition to that, there are almost definite punishments of other sins for going against God's Holiness. As you stated, "Consequences have to be answered for".

 

In both cases there are consequences for wrongdoing. In Islam, however, it's much easier to be forgiven.

How does it not include a disbeliever like you? Gods mercy is available to all, you have chosen another way that you feel gives you easier access to that mercy. The fact you say, "it's much easier to be forgiven in Islam" ... That worries me, I don't want it to be easier, I want it to be just. The Bible shows a Holy God to which sin is an anathema I expect such a Holy God to judge and punish ALL sin accordingly. We know God is merciful and loving so can know that justice will be tempered with His loving mercy. Hence.. The blood of Jesus.. The greatest act of agape love God has shown mankind. You think it is easier to be forgiven... But you can never know if what you do is ever enough.

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From a Catholic prospective, a non-Christian would need to have invincible ignorance in order to be saved. In other words, it was not their fault they never got to know about Christ as their Lord and Saviour. However, there may also be mitigating circumstances which our Lord will consider, psychological etc. In the end, we don’t know who will be saved as we cannot read other people’s hearts, neither is it out business, it is for God alone to judge. Our job is share the gospel by deed first and foremost and by word.

 

Here is the catch – even the non-Christians are saved by the merits of Christ. The merits he obtained for them is applied to them. There is no salvation outside of Christ.

 

Hi God’s Servant,

 

Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.

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Hi Tunisia,

 

My understanding from both your and brother Tanker's replies is that the Blood of Christ does not save everyone. My sin of disbelief is not cleansed by the Blood of Christ. In relation to this, I am a flagrant sinner and God is Just and Holy. If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, it is highly likely that I will be deprived of His Mercy and punished.

 

The replies that I have received also seems to imply that there are other sins aside from disbelief that are most likely to require punishment due to God's Holiness and Justness. For clarification: Does this apply to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior also? 

 

In light of the above, it's as I mentioned in a previous post: The doctrine you have propounded in relation to Christianity isn't that dissimilar to Islam in this aspect. There are warnings of possible punishments due to committing sins, some of them severe.  

 

In Islam, the Lord can arbitrarily do whatever He wants and He will still be Just. He can remediate a situation to where the victim of a crime/wrongdoing will be compensated in such a way that the victim will happily and willfully forgive and forget the related transgression. He can also forgive and forget - at His discretion - any transgression made against Him. The Lord is so merciful; All a person needs to do to get forgiveness is feel sincere remorse in his/her heart - and the Lord will not hesitate. And, similarly to the doctrine of Christianity you mentioned, He can also exact punishment for certain sins if He see fit.

 

The crux of the matter, as I see it, is as follows:

 

Your premise is that Allah is not the Most Merciful if He does not forgive shirk. 

 

However, you have also made explicitly clear that the Christian doctrine of mercy doesn't include a disbeliever like me. In addition to that, there are almost definite punishments of other sins for going against God's Holiness. As you stated, "Consequences have to be answered for".

 

In both cases there are consequences for wrongdoing. In Islam, however, it's much easier to be forgiven.

 

 

From a Catholic prospective, a non-Christian would need to have invincible ignorance in order to be saved. In other words, it was not their fault they never got to know about Christ as their Lord and Saviour. However, there may also be mitigating circumstances which our Lord will consider, psychological etc. In the end, we don’t know who will be saved as we cannot read other people’s hearts, neither is it out business, it is for God alone to judge. Our job is share the gospel by deed first and foremost and by word.

 

Here is the catch – even the non-Christians are saved by the merits of Christ. The merits he obtained for them is applied to them. There is no salvation outside of Christ.

 

 

When we speak of the blood of Jesus we are essentially referring to his sufferings because of our sins. Do you not understand that even the innocent can suffer? The point is that if your Allah can do whatever he likes then he has no character that can be relied upon such a God acts on impulse not holiness.

 

 

Hi again,

 

As with the video, in my opinion, I think my post – in its entirety – speaks for itself. For reference, I have quoted it above.

 

From your post quoted above – and Gods Servant's affirmation of it (in a different post not quoted above) – it seems that Christianity subjects God’s nature to human intellectual judgment. As a result, in our case, His character can be judged by His creation.

 

In Islam, God’s Nature – including His Wisdom and Will – are beyond the comprehension of His creation. His creation does not have the ability to judge anything He does. As I mentioned in my post above with an illustration, He can do anything He wants and still be Just. In Islam, human intellect and subsequent judgments of wrong and right are limited.

 

I can agree to disagree with you on your narrative of the nature of the Lord.

 

I really appreciate this discussion. Thank you.

Edited by najimuddin

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Where did I imply the Blood of Christ does not save everyone? It's Gods will we are ALL saved, God does not wish for ONE single soul to perish because we are all precious to Him.. It's about spiritual life, everybody who is born on the planet earth is dead spiritually. Now, the question is that, if I am dead, how could I save myself? The dead man cannot do any good work. Every human being is born spiritually dead, there is no way to say that salvation is through good deeds, because dead people cannot do good deeds at all. The only way for the salvation of the dead man is to get life. And who grants us life, but Jesus Christ? He is the life, once we have Jesus Christ in our heart, we are assured eternal life will be imparted to us. The wages of sin is death. And Jesus died on the cross to pay that penalty for our sins. And because He is our creator, then His value is more than His creation. He can redeem all mankind. This is the plan of salvation in the Bible. It's open to all, a free choice.. I accept it because I know as a sinner I can do nothing to save myself I can only rely on Gods provision because only God has that power. I see that provision in the blood of Jesus. You believe you can maybe contribute something to mitigate your sin through good deeds in your lifetime, but you can never know, with any surety if your good deeds are ever enough.

 

 

Is disbelief a sin? God gave us free will to choose belief in Him or not.. Why then would He judge unfavourably a person choosing disbelief if this was a choice given to them by God Himself? Is disbelief a sin in Islam? Accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour is eternal life, where we spend that eternal life is what we are judged on. It's no good accepting Jesus as your Saviour and then lead a life of sin and debauchery expecting to be given a free pass to Paradise. It doesn't work like that! To accept Jesus into your life is to live through Him, avoiding sin, having compassion for others and above all a love for your fellow man even those who may seem to be undeserving. Of course a person will sin, because it's our nature to do so. So we also have to be repentant and to be so sincerely.

 

 

That repentance is needed yes, there are similarities. Sins must be paid for.. Because God cannot go against His divine nature because God is always consistent, so Gods Justice must be served as His mercy is shown through His love for us. I

 

 

I don't see how God can arbitrarily do whatever He wants at the expense of His Justice and mercy. One or the other would be compromised. I don't see that is possible if God is Holy. Forgive and forget?? All sin comes down to one basic thing..disobedience against God. So any sin is an affront against Gods holiness. Yet you see it is ok that God may simply brush such a sin aside! This seems to me to devalue Gods holiness. The Bible teaches that God abhors ALL sin. To ignore any sins or brush them aside goes against Gods divine nature, God would no longer be consistent.

 

 

How does it not include a disbeliever like you? Gods mercy is available to all, you have chosen another way that you feel gives you easier access to that mercy. The fact you say, "it's much easier to be forgiven in Islam" ... That worries me, I don't want it to be easier, I want it to be just. The Bible shows a Holy God to which sin is an anathema I expect such a Holy God to judge and punish ALL sin accordingly. We know God is merciful and loving so can know that justice will be tempered with His loving mercy. Hence.. The blood of Jesus.. The greatest act of agape love God has shown mankind. You think it is easier to be forgiven... But you can never know if what you do is ever enough.

 

Thank you Tunisia. I appreciate your response.

 

Edit: I'm not sure why your integrated quotation of my post didn't appear in my quotation of your response above. Those interested may refer to it on page 56 of this thread.

Edited by najimuddin

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Hi again,

As with the video, in my opinion, I think my post – in its entirety – speaks for itself. For reference, I have quoted it above.

From your post quoted above – and Gods Servant's affirmation of it (in a different post not quoted above) – it seems that Christianity subjects God’s nature to human intellectual judgment. As a result, in our case, His character can be judged by His creation.

In Islam, God’s Nature – including His Wisdom and Will – are beyond the comprehension of His creation. His creation does not have the ability to judge anything He does. As I mentioned in my post above with an illustration, He can do anything He wants and still be Just. In Islam, human intellect and subsequent judgments of wrong and right are limited.

I can agree to disagree with you on your narrative of the nature of the Lord.

I really appreciate this discussion. Thank you.

 

I also appreciate the discussion. I cannot agree with you when you say christianity subjects God's nature to human judgement.. Intellectual or otherwise. We cast no judgement upon Gods "character" because we cannot know God, we do not have the spiritual discernment to fully know God. We believe that Jesus is the representation of God on earth, as far as our limited understanding can allow. Jesus is all God is but not all there is to God.

 

God reveals Himself to some extent through His prophets, that's how we know how Holy God is, we know we can never meet the standard required by that very holiness to stand before God whilst we are in our fallen state", we know we can only meet God on God's terms.

 

It seems to me, how you portray God as simply forgiving sins at will.. It is yourselves who limit God with human concepts of forgiveness. After all, it's within my power to forgive someone who transgresses against my person, and indeed it is good for me to do so, however my forgiveness is a small thing and in no way removes or negates the sin against my person. The consequences still exist because only a Holy God has the power to remove sin and make mankind righteous in His sight so we can be redeemed. God demands atonement for sin... I cannot see why a Holy God should expect any less.. It sets the standard of Gods holiness.

 

The whole concept of sin in the Quran I have to say I don't see makes sense to me. It seems to make light of sin, I think that's quite a dangerous doctrine for ones soul.. If the understanding of sin and its effects upon a Holy God is not understood what chance then to understand the need to atone for it. Repentance for sure is required but in itself is not enough.

 

I don't wish my posts to constantly seem like I disagree with your points for the sake of disagreement, but believe me, I need to be sure as absolutely as I can be that where salvation of ones soul is concerned it makes logical sense. Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life. I believe He spoke the truth.

 

Peace and blessings.

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Workingman, we can continue our discussions here, and if you can bring more christians here to discuss these topics with us it would be great.

 

I hope that you will be more logical than your were in previous debates. beacuse i am helpless against unlogical people :)

 

My question for you is,

 

Is "I and my father are one" evidence for you that jesus is God?

That alone? No

But that verse alongside others make it a logical idea 

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