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Carlos your very approach makes my stomach churn.

 

As to your comment on atonement do you even know what you are asking? You are asking how God could forgive without sacrifice, try reading Psalms 91 for starters. This is not a new concept

  • Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.

    1. Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
    2. Atonement Christianity. The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.
       

    [*]Obsolete. Reconciliation; concord.

source: http://www.answers.com/topic/atonement

 

There are several ways to guarantee individual forgiveness in Islam, multiple but there is also the final reckoning where one must account for their good and their bad before the creator. One of these ways to guarantee forgiveness is the hajj. If you knew much about Islam or the merriam-webster dictionary you would understand that this issue has already been addressed in this very thread. Go back to the beginning ( that would be page 1 ) and start reading, tienes que ir a leer, comprende?

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PropellerAds

 

Following the Temple destruction in 70 C.E. did rabbinic Judaism substitute a non-biblical atonement system?

 

 

 

Answer: Biblically, the optimum means for attaining atonement consists of both animal sacrifices and sincere confessionary repentant prayer used in conjunction with each other. Traditional Judaism looks forward to the restoration of the dual system working simultaneously--animal sacrifice and contrite prayer.

The rabbis under the leadership of Yohanan ben Zakkai did not make an unscriptural substitution when they emphasized sincere confessionary repentant prayer as a means of obtaining atonement. The Bible already mandated sincere confessionary repentant prayer, as a proper vehicle for attaining forgiveness. In the biblical period atonement prayer was used with full divine sanction, with or without animal offerings (even for non-Jews--Jonah 3:5-10).

Sincere confessionary repentant prayer is the primary biblical prescription for obtaining atonement when animal sacrifices cannot be offered concurrently. Animal sacrifices are only prescribed for unwitting or unintentional sin (shogeg)--Leviticus 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:5, 15 (cf. Numbers 15:30). The one exception is if an individual swore falsely to acquit himself of the accusation of having committed theft (Leviticus 5:24-26). Intentional sin can only be atoned for through repentance, unaccompanied by a blood sacrifice- Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19.

source: http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53:did-rabbinic-judaism-substitute-a-non-biblical-atonement&catid=43:atonement&Itemid=487

 

Sincere repentance to the one God is atonement .... maybe instead of coming out bashing Islam claiming that you understand it or trying to trump someone you should go back and learn your own religion.

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even your bible say that you dont need sacrifice but repetance and God's mercy

 

exactly like Islam

 

 

Jesus said

<< Matthew 9:13 >>

But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).

 

 

“And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:2-5).

 

“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. … Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:7, 10).

 

And they went out, and preached that men should repent” (Mark 6:12).

 

 

Fogivness of God in bible

 

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

 

If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7: 14

 

For if you forgive people their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6: 14

 

For I will be merciful and gracious toward their sins and I will remember their deeds of unrighteousness no more.

Hebrews 8: 12

 

For You, O Lord, are good, and ready to forgive [our trespasses, sending them away, letting them go completely and forever]; and You are abundant in mercy and loving-kindness to all those who call upon You.

Psalm 86: 5

 

this is same Islamic doctrine, no difference, repetance and the hope for forgivness, but no, you christian like to complicate your religion, you want to see jesus dead for your sins.

even though you read this 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

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salaam alaiykum Augustine,

 

shukran

 

I will always be Muslim and fully understand that this will not change. I am willing to discuss Islam & Christianity or other religions if desired but to you, Carlos, you should know that while I will always be Muslim I will always have a sincere respect for Augustine here for while he is very Christian he is also very sincere in this and shows it in the way that he approaches these discussions and does not blatantly attack Muslims or even Islam itself. You could learn a lot from him.

 

p.s.

it might serve you better to find a new username as going around using the name of a former terrorist that killed hundreds supposedly for the cause of freeing Palestine it is a bit hard to take you seriously as a Christian.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_the_Jackal

Edited by abdullahfath

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I think the greatest stumbling block here is the belief in inherent sin which Christians believe in and Islam does not.

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I think the greatest stumbling block here is the belief in inherent sin which Christians believe in and Islam does not.

 

 

i really cant understand how people can believe that you will be punished for sins of others, that such illogical belief

 

if you asked them, what if we put you in jail beacuse other people commited crime, they would not agree with that, but they agree that we shall be responsible for adam and eve's fruits

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Yea it must be the Muslim who is confused:

 

The Jewish view of sin differs from the Christian concept of original sin. While Christian doctrine teaches that every person is born with the taint of Adam's sin upon them, Judaism believes that each person is born innocent. Jews believe that individuals are responsible for their own actions and that "sinning" occurs when someone does something wrong.

source: http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Do-Jews-Believe-In-Sin.htm

 

The truth banished Set to the "boiling lake" of fire for a thousand years, after which the son Horus, the father Ra-Osiris and the Holy Spirit Isis (the spirit dove) ruled the heavens. Actually, Horus was given the earth to rule for a thousand years whereas Ra was portioned heaven, the celestial Duat (heaven) for eternity. After the thousand years was up, the god Set was released from the waters of the boiling lake, the abyss. But Ra wanted to banish Set forever. The legend states that "the evil one" (Set) would be obliterated into the void (or oblivion) for the sake of men on earth. This lead to the belief that at the end of time the god would once and for all judge the wickedness and iniquity upon the earth...and men would sin no more. In accordance with an ancient concept known as Maat, "right order", which had existed before the creation of the universe. The scribe this time was Maatiu, the scribe of Atum-Ra.

 

Original sin was known to the Egyptian priests. Original sin began when Atum had created his daughter and son, Shu and Tefnut. In turn they gave birth to Nut and Geb, which in turn gave birth to the chaos gods. So original sin was traced through Atum. In order to reverse the events which lead to Original Sin, it was necessary to go back. Ra commissioned the birth of another "Atum" to be sent into the future to reverse the established chaos on earth, this second "Atum" was Horus, the son of Osiris (or properly Ra-Osiris).

 

This divine appearance of Horus was prophecied at the temple of Mut during the reign of Amenhotep III. At Luxor at the temple of Mut there is the prophecy set in stone. The birth of Horus was heralded by a messenger who appeared to the Isis-Queen, that she would give birth to a god who would restore righeousness on earth. The scenes depict the birth sequence which confirms the arrival of three star-gazers bearing gifts to the new born king. This king would come to punish sin on earth for the sake of men.

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We all descend from Adam, we all share the same flesh with Adam we therefore inherit the fallen nature of Adam.

 

I think original sin makes perfect sense in explaining why we have evil inclinations to sin. God did not create us evil, he created us to be good, if he created us to be good there should be no room for evil inclinations and desires.

 

The fact is Muslims will never believe in this because it contradicts Quranic teachings. Ultimately we will never agree on this point because Christians do not believe a good God can create evil as it contradicts his nature whereas Muslims do believe.

 

God bless,

 

 

We all descend from Adam, we all share the same flesh with Adam we therefore inherit the fallen nature of Adam.

 

what about that i kill a person and we put you in jail, :glare: dont like the idea, realy but you like to make sin upon us from what adam and eve did

 

 

I think original sin makes perfect sense in explaining why we have evil inclinations to sin. God did not create us evil, he created us to be good, if he created us to be good there should be no room for evil inclinations and desires.

 

no it has nothing to do with orginal sin, it has to do with satan who whispered evil ideas to people.

 

[The Noble Quran 2:268] The devil promises you poverty and commands you to commit evil, while God promises you forgiveness from Him and grace. God is Bounteous, Omniscient.

 

[The Noble Quran 5:90] O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.

 

[The Noble Quran 5:91] The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering God, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?

 

[The Noble Quran 35:6] The devil is your enemy, so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be the dwellers of Hell.

 

[The Noble Quran 7:200] When the devil whispers to you any whisper, seek refuge in God; He is Hearer, Omniscien

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The fact is Muslims will never believe in this because it contradicts Quranic teachings. Ultimately we will never agree on this point because Christians do not believe a good God can create evil as it contradicts his nature whereas Muslims do believe.

 

God bless,

 

it is satan who gives instructions into human minds how to commit sins, and people are weak and they follow him.

 

God create both evil and good, but why? we let him answer that

 

God says:

 

21:35 Every self will taste death. We test you with both good and evil as a trial. And you will be returned to Us.

 

so it is a test for us as we can see.

 

what if a professor make both easy(good) and difficult(evil bad) tasks

 

Is professor bad beacuse he want to test you wtih difficult (evil) tasks , and so you can pass to get diploma???

 

Augustine, my friend, christian belief is not logical, even your mind says it is not logical, beacuse you will never agree that someone commit crime and we put other in jail beacuse of that. but still you push Adam and Eve sin upon people, how logical is that?

 

 

and by the way there is no orginal sin according to bible, jesus himself denis orginal sin

 

evidence here:

 

<< Matthew 19:14 >>

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

 

as you can see children go to paradise, beacuse they are without sins, if they had sin how could they go to paradise, so even your bible denies your belief.

 

you belief is not logical and it contradicts the bible itself, what jesus said.

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See what I mean?

 

Andalusi is arguing there is no such thing as original sin solely because the Quran says so. He even made a futile attempt to prove the Bible supports his claim even though the context in Matthew 19:14 has got nothing to do with original sin.

 

BTW – the example you gave about you killing someone and I get thrown into prison shows how little you know about original sin. Inheritors of original sin are not automatically condemned.

 

May God guide you to the truth; I pray the Blessed Virgin Mary will guide you to her Son who is the way, the truth and the life.

 

God bless,

 

See what I mean?

 

 

i see very well, but it is you who dont see how illogical that belief is, man, wake up wake up, how can someone else be responsible for your sins.....

 

 

He even made a futile attempt to prove the Bible supports his claim even though the context in Matthew 19:14 has got nothing to do with original sin.

 

you see, when you read a sentence like this

 

"i will kill you"

 

what can we conclude from this sentence, that i love you or hate you, you dont need to read "i hate you" so you understand that i really hate you

 

Note: i dont hate you , that is just example how you can conclude something from a sentence.

 

 

same it is with that verse,

 

<< Matthew 19:14 >>

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

 

 

 

Jesus did not need to say here there is no sin in this sentence, when he said children are going to paradise, he said indirrectly there is no orginal sin, beacuse how can you go to paradise with such big sin then. it is same as my example, when i say i hate you , you can conclude that i hate you even though i did not say in that sentence i hate you. do you understand what i am talking about.

 

How can you believe in orginal sin after this verse in bible

 

<< Ezekiel 18:20 >>

The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.

 

How can we take the sin of our father Adam? when bible clearly say everyone is responsible for its own sins.

 

every muslim in the world agree with this verse from bible , every logical human agree with this verse in the bible, only people who dont agree with this verse in bible are christians.

 

Cant you see that bible, logic and quran goes against christian belief of orginal sins?

 

 

May God guide you to the truth; I pray the Blessed Virgin Mary will guide you to her Son who is the way, the truth and the life.

 

if that is truth that i am responsible for someone else sins, then i dont want to follow that truth, that is injustice, you know very well that it is injustice, but you dont want to admit that.

 

when i talk to you i realize how Islam is superior religion and logical relgion comparing to your belief system, and i can only thank God for showing me Islam :thumbsup:

 

 

I pray the Blessed Virgin Mary will guide you to her Son who is the way, the truth and the life.

 

you shall pray to God, not to people, how can you pray to Mary, for God sake, a dead human being :no:

 

God say to you in quran:

 

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him and his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

 

 

Why do God said that both jesus and mary ate food? beacuse they were humans, God does not eat food, and those who eat food, goe to toilet, and i can timagine God sitting on toilet chair. That is why call you christians deluded people. And jesus himself shall estrange you from himself in his second coming

 

<< Matthew 7:23 >>

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"

 

why should jesus say something like this to you christians ??? beacuse you have gone from the right path, you pray to jesus, to mary and make them as Gods besides God, that is why you shall be punished in the hereafter beacuse you associate partners with God. you can only save yourself, if you repent to God before you die, he will then forgive you, and if you die like this, you will never get into the paradise.

 

God informed us that he will ask jesus this on the day of judgement:

 

Quran

Verse (5:116-117) And when God will say, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen, I only said to them what Thou didst command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when Thou didst take me to Thyself, Thou wast Thyself the watcher over them; Thou Thyself art witness of everything.

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This is a very good debate! I have been following it, and, to my old atheist mind, it is proof that religious belief very often leads to the adoption of strange and illogical ideas. Both sides in this debate may just be getting it right about the religion of the other side. Sorry to observe this, but nonsense is nonsense by any other name! Original sin might be an acknowledgement of the most primitive parts of our nature that have been produced my evolution, but humans are born no more "evil" than any other mammal! However, we do have the advantage of our brains and quite a bit of collected wisdom, some of which is rooted in religion. Just my 2 cents worth!

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Again you’re criticizing something you don’t fully understand. I am still responsible for my actions. I will go to hell if I disobey God’s commandments. Jesus is not responsible for my actions, I am. When are you going to turn off those Islamic filters of yours and understand Christianity with an objective approach?

 

 

 

 

Brother forgive me for saying so but your explanation is absolutely ridiculous. If I used your methodology of implicit interpretation, then I can interpret the Quran in an implicit way that I know you would disagree with. You’re using a double standard which is unacceptable.

 

Your interpretations of the bible means nothing to me. You claim you use logic well that’s not enough. You are missing the following.

  • Linguistic skills. You’re not an expert in Hebrew or Greek, hence you cannot trace back to the root meaning.
  • You do not consider the time and culture of each book of the bible written.
  • You do not allow the text to speak for itself. You interpret the bible in light of your Islamic belief, that’s not what the writers had in mind when they wrote the scripture.
  • You constantly ignore the context.

I can go on and on but I believe I’ve made it clear why I don’t really care what bible verses you throw at me or how you interpret them.

 

God bless,

 

Again you’re criticizing something you don’t fully understand. I am still responsible for my actions.

 

how can i understand illogical belief, it is like someone says to you 1+1+1=1, you simply dont understand this.

 

 

I will go to hell if I disobey God’s commandments.

 

yes, if you disobey God's commandments, and you do exactly that

 

Exodus:

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 

But look this

 

I pray the Blessed Virgin Mary will guide you to her Son who is the way, the truth and the life

 

you are praying other than God, it is God who you shall pray, you make Mary and her son jesus gods besides God, that is why christians shall be punished.

 

 

Jesus is not responsible for my actions, I am. When are you going to turn off those Islamic filters of yours and understand Christianity with an objective approach?

 

if christianity could have been understood christian would not left it, you cant realize how many people leave christianity and come to Islam beacuse they dont udnerstand illogical belief system in christianity.

 

 

Your interpretations of the bible means nothing to me. You claim you use logic well that’s not enough. You are missing the following

 

i know that you dont care what your own bible says to you, if you cared yuo would not have such nonsence belief man.

 

Linguistic skills. You’re not an expert in Hebrew or Greek, hence you cannot trace back to the root meaning.

You do not consider the time and culture of each book of the bible written.

You do not allow the text to speak for itself. You interpret the bible in light of your Islamic belief, that’s not what the writers had in mind when they wrote the scripture.

You constantly ignore the context.

 

i am not expert in hebrew and greek but i know that you like to change words so it can suit your beliefs, like inveting word begotten when there is no such word in orginal script of bible in greek.

 

you are qouting "i and father are one" as evidence for jesus divinity, that jesus is God, while jesus himself explain what that mean, it mean that they are one in purpose, like he said that also his disciples shall be one with him and father.

 

and you say that i dont know the context, it is you who dont know the context, just look how many christians use this sentence from jesus as evidence that jesus is God, while jesus himself explained what that means, and it is absolutly not that he is God. that is obvious that you christian dont know your own bible.

 

 

I don’t really care what bible verses you throw at me or how you interpret them.

 

i know taht you dont care beacuse if you cared you would not have such illogical belief like you have now.

 

you can believe what ever you want man, and you will be responsible after your death beacuse you associated partners with God, while God said to you

 

Exodus:

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 

and if you die with such belief, you will be punished by God for sure, for sure, no doubt about it.

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Padre5

 

Humans are not born “evil”. Here is an explanation of original sin from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 405:

 

Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

 

God bless,

 

 

Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God

 

who erased sins of people before jesus??

 

could they have their sins erased? not without jesus or ???

 

if yes, then you dont need baptism and that statemnt from church is lie.

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Augustine, what you are trying to explain to andalusi is a complete waist of time. This man will not listen. Nor will he read anything with a open and objective mind. His Islamic filter is up way to high. It will take a mirical not words for him to understand. May our Lady of Help give him dreams and visions to show him and bring him home.

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Augustine, what you are trying to explain to andalusi is a complete waist of time. This man will not listen. Nor will he read anything with a open and objective mind. His Islamic filter is up way to high. It will take a mirical not words for him to understand. May our Lady of Help give him dreams and visions to show him and bring him home.

 

May our Lady of Help give him dreams and visions to show him and bring him home.

 

i pray and worship only God, not muhammed, not jesus, not mary ,like you christians do. only God.

 

Mary can not give me any dreams and vision, it is God who gives guidence/instructions through dreams

 

...you pray to others than God, in that way you make them as gods besides God.

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Muslim-Christian Debate in Abbasid Baghdad

 

I have just come across a fascinating account of Christians living in the third/ninth century Abbasid Baghdad to be found in the work of Muslim theologian Abu Uthman al-Jahiz (died 255/869) in a letter he wrote to some Muslim friends who had asked for his help against a group of Christians. He outlines for them the way in which Christians treat Muslims in debate:

They choose contradictory statements in our Hadiths, our reports that have weak chains of transmitters, and the equivocal verses in our Book, and they take to one side our weak and common people and ask them questions about them.

Despite the ideas they have learnt from the heretics and accursed atheists, they often appear innocent before our intellectuals and people of influence. Hence they stir up trouble among the powerful, and cause deception among the weak-minded. And the pity is that each and every Muslim thinks he is an expert in religious matters, and that no one is better at arguing with heretics than anyone else!

 

Quotation in Early Muslim Polemic against Christianity Abu ‘Isa al-Warraq’s “Against the Incarnation”, edited and translated by David Thomas, published by University of Cambridge Oriental Publications 59 in 2002.

David Thomas comments,

This depicts the Christians as completely unscrupulous in the way they confused ordinary Muslims by presenting spurious or difficult statements from Muslim scriptural sources, and confuted experts with arguments they innocently passed off as not their own. It is undoubtedly exaggerated.’ (page 7)

 

Exaggerated or not, the description is undoubtedly fitting of some Christians we deal with today as we well know – mentioning no names! How little has changed in over a thousand years…

 

http://thedebateinit...bbasid-baghdad/

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Heavens Fire

do you know that that God in bible command you to follow prophet Muhammed??
so tell me why dont you accept Muhammed as prophet and God's messanger?


God says in Bible:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19
I will raise up for them a prophet like you(Moses) from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf.

and if yo usay this is jesus, then how can Jesus be like Moses, when they are totally different

jesus had different birth, departure from Earth, marriage, rulership, no new laws and so on.

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This thread andalusi? Just checking before I start reading.

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even though christian think that Gospel of Barnabas is forgery, i dont hink so, i have read it twice...gospel of barnabas is more logical than standard christian bible. gospel of barnabs is muc more sense than this bible wich we have today.

 

i simply dont accept opinion of christian scholars beacuse they corrupt bible wich we have today, so how can we trust such people

look here how they corrupted bible

 

How many version of the bible are out there, corruption of christian scholar

 

i will show you how barnabas writes about what really happened with jesus in his last days of earth, how judas was transformed

 

copied from

http://www.barnabas.net

 

214: Judas Betrays

 

Having gone forth from the house, Jesus retired into the garden to pray, according as his custom was to pray, bowing his knees an hundred times and prostrating himself upon his face. Judas, accordingly, knowing the place where Jesus was with his disciples, went to the high priest, and said: "If you will give me what was promised, this night will I give into your hand Jesus whom you seek; for he is alone with eleven companions." The high priest answered: "How much do you seek?" Judas said, "Thirty pieces of gold."

Then straightway the high priest counted to him the money, and sent a Pharisee to the governor to fetch soldiers, and to Herod, and they gave a legion of them, because they feared the people; wherefore they took their arms, and with torches and lanterns upon staves went out of Jerusalem.

 

215: Divine Rescue of Jesus

 

When the soldiers with Judas drew near to the place where Jesus was, Jesus heard the approach of many people, wherefore in fear he withdrew into the house. And the eleven were sleeping. Then God, seeing the danger of his servant, commanded Gabriel;, Michael;, Rafael;, and Uriel, his ministers, to take Jesus out of the world. The holy angels came and took Jesus out by the window that looks toward the South;. They bare him and placed him in the third heaven in the company of angels blessing God for evermore.

 

216: Judas Transformed

 

Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil

 

217: Judas was Crucified

 

The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'

Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.

When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.

As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of israel that he would tell him the truth.

Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?

As God lives,' you shall not escape it!' And having said this he commanded his servants to smite him with buffetings and kicks, so that his understanding might come back into his head. The derision which he then suffered at the hands of the high priest's servants is past belief. For they zealously devised new inventions to give pleasure to the council. So they attired him as a juggler, and so treated him with hands and feet that it would have moved the very Canaanites to compassion if they had beheld that sight. But the chief priests and Pharisees and elders of the people had their hearts so exasperated against Jesus that, believing Judas to be really Jesus, they took delight in seeing him so treated.

Afterwards they led him bound to the governor, who secretly loved Jesus. Whereupon he, thinking that Judas was Jesus, made him enter into his chamber, and spoke to him, asking him for what cause the chief priests and the people had given him into his hands. Judas answered: 'If I tell you the truth, you will not believe me; for perhaps you are deceived as the (chief) priests and the Pharisees are deceived.'

The governor answered (thinking that he wished to speak concerning the Law): 'Now know you not that I am not a Jew? but the (chief) priests and the elders of your people have given you into my hand; wherefore tell us the truth, wherefore I may do what is just. For I have power to set you free and to put you to death.' Judas answered: 'Sir, believe me, if you put me to death, you shall do a great wrong, for you shall slay an innocent person; seeing that I am Judas ;Iscariot, and not Jesus, who is a magician, and by his are has so transformed me.'

When he heard this the governor marvelled greatly, so that he sought to set him at liberty. The governor therefore went out, and smiling said: 'In the one case, at least, this man is not worthy of death, but rather of compassion.' 'This man says,' said the governor, 'that he is not Jesus, but a certain Judas who guided the soldiery to take Jesus, and he says that Jesus the Galilean has by his are magic so transformed him. Wherefore, if this be true, it were a great wrong to kill him, seeing that he were innocent. But if he is Jesus and denies that he is, assuredly he has lost his understanding, and it were impious to slay a madman.'

Then the chief priests and elders of the people, with the scribes and Pharisees, cried out with shouts, saying: 'He is Jesus of Nazareth;, for we know him; for if he were not the malefactor we would not have given him into your hands. Nor is he mad; but rather malignant, for with this device he seeks to escape from our hands, and the sedition that he would stir up if he should escape would be worse than the former.' Pilate (of such was the governor's name), in order to rid himself of such a case, said: 'He is a Galilean, and Herod is king of Galilee: wherefore it pertains not to me to judge such a case, so take you him to Herod.'

Accordingly they led Judas to Herod, who of a long time had desired that Jesus should go to his house. But Jesus had never been willing to go to his house, because Herod was a Gentile, and adored the false and lying gods, living after the manner of the unclean Gentiles. Now when Judas had been led thither, Herod asked him of many things, to which Judas gave answers not to the purpose, denying that he was Jesus. Then Herod mocked him, with all his court, and caused him to be clad in white as the fools are clad;, and sent him back to Pilate, saying to him, 'Do not fail in justice to the people of israel!' * And this Herod wrote, because the chief priests and scribes and the Pharisees had given him a good quantity of money. The governor having heard that this was so from a servant of Herod, in order that he also might gain some money, feigned that he desired to set Judas at liberty.

Whereupon he caused him to be scourged by his slaves, who were paid by the scribes to slay him under the scourges. But God, who had decreed the issue, reserved Judas for the cross, in order that he might suffer that horrible death to which he had sold another. He did not suffer Judas to die under the scourges, notwithstanding that the soldiers scourged him so grievously that his body rained blood. Thereupon, in mockery they clad him in an old purple garment;, saying: 'It is fitting to our new king to clothe him and crown him': so they gathered thorns and made a crown, like those of gold and precious stones which kings wear on their heads. And this crown of thorns they placed upon Judas' head, putting in his hand a reed for sceptre;, and they made him sit in a high place.

And the soldiers came before him, bowing down in mockery, saluting him as King of the Jews. And they held out their hands to receive gifts, such as new kings are accustomed to give; and receiving nothing they smote Judas, saying: 'Now, how are you crowned, foolish king, if you will not pay your soldiers and servants?' *The chief priests with the scribes and Pharisees, seeing that Judas died not by the scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should set him at liberty, made a gift of money to the governor, who having received it gave Judas to the scribes and Pharisees as guilty to death. Whereupon they condemned two robbers with him to the death of the cross.

So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.

But they that stood firm in the doctrine of Jesus were so encompassed with sorrow, seeing him die who was entirely like to Jesus, that they remembered not what Jesus had said. And so in company with the mother of Jesus they went to Mount Calvary, and were not only present at the death of Judas, weeping continually, but by means of Nicodemus and Joseph of Abarimathia; they obtained from the governor the body of Judas to bury it. Whereupon, they took him down from the cross with such weeping as assuredly no one would believe, and buried him in the new sepulchre of Joseph; having wrapped him up in an hundred pounds of precious ointments.

 

218: Body of Judas Stolen

 

Then returned each man to his house. He who writes, with John and James his brother, went with the mother of Jesus; to Nazareth.

Those disciples who did not fear God went by night [and] stole the body of Judas and hid it, spreading a report that Jesus was risen again; whence great confusion arose. The high priest then commanded, under pain of anathema;, that no one should talk of Jesus of Nazareth;. And so there arose a great persecution, and many were stoned and many beaten, and many banished from the land, because they could not hold their peace on such a matter.

The news reached Nazareth how that Jesus, their fellow citizen, having died on the cross was risen again. Whereupon, he that writes; prayed the mother of Jesus; that she would be pleased to leave off weeping, because her son was risen again. Hearing this, the Virgin Mary, weeping, said: 'Let us go to Jerusalem to find my son. I shall die content when I have seen him.'

 

219: Jesus appeareth to his mother and his disciples

 

The Virgin returned to Jerusalem with him who writes, and James and John, on that day on which the decree of the high priest went forth. Whereupon, the Virgin, who feared God, albeit she knew the decree of the high priest to be unjust, commanded those who dwelt with her to forget her son. Then how each one was affected! God who discerns the heart of men knows that between grief at the death of Judas whom we believed to be Jesus our master, and the desire to see him risen again, we, with the mother of Jesus, were consumed.

So the angels that were guardians of Mary ascended to the third heaven;, where Jesus was in the company of angels, and recounted all to him. Wherefore Jesus prayed God that he would give him power to see his mother and his disciples. Then the merciful God commanded his four favourite angels, who are Michael, Gabriel, Rafael;, and Uriel, to bear Jesus into his mother's house, and there keep watch over him for three days continually, suffering him only to be seen by them that believed in his doctrine.

Jesus came, surrounded with splendour, to the room where abode Mary the Virgin with her two sisters, and Martha and Mary Magdalen, and Lazarus, and him who writes, and John and James and Peter. Whereupon, through fear they fell as dead. And Jesus lifted up his mother and the others from the ground, saying: 'Fear not, for I am Jesus; and weep not, for I am alive and not dead.' They remained every one for a long time beside himself at the presence of Jesus, for they altogether believed that Jesus was dead. Then the Virgin, weeping, said: 'Tell me, my son, wherefore God, having given you power to raise the dead. suffered you to die, to the shame of your kinsfolk and friends, and to the shame of your doctrine? For every one that loves you has been as dead.'

 

220: Jesus and the Four Angels

 

Jesus replied, embracing his mother: 'Believe me, mother, for truly I say to you that I have not been dead at all; for God has reserved me till near the end of the world.' And having said this he prayed the four angels that they would manifest themselves, and give testimony how the matter had passed.

Thereupon the angels manifested themselves like four shining suns, insomuch that through fear every one again fell down as dead. Then Jesus gave four linen cloths to the angels that they might cover themselves, in order that they might be seen and heard to speak by his mother and her companions. And having lifted up each one, he comforted them, saying: 'These are the ministers of God: Gabriel, who announces God's secrets; Michael, who fights against God's enemies; Rafael, who receives the souls of them that die; and Uriel, who will call every one to the judgment of God at the last day. Then the four angels narrated to the Virgin how God had sent for Jesus, and had transformed Judas, that he might suffer the punishment to which he had sold another.

Then said he who writes: 'O Master, is it lawful for me to question you now, as it was lawful for me when you dwelt with us?' Jesus answered: 'Ask what you please, Barnabas, and I will answer you.' Then said he who writes: 'O Master, seeing that God is merciful, wherefore has he so tormented us, making us to believe that you were dead? and your mother has so wept for you that she has been near to death; and you, who are an holy one of God, on you has God suffered to fall the calumny that you were slain amongst robbers ;on the Mount Calvary?'

Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell.

And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'

 

221: Jesus Chargeth Barnabas to Write

 

Jesus turned himself to him who writes, and said: "Barnabas, see that by all means you write my gospel concerning all that has happened through my dwelling in the world. And write in a similar manner that which has befallen Judas, in order that the faithful may be undeceived, and every one may believe the truth." Then answered he who writes: "I will do so, if God wills, O Master; but I do not know what happened to Judas, for I did not see it."

Jesus answered: "Here are John and Peter who saw everything, and they will tell you all that has passed." And then Jesus commanded us to call his faithful disciples [so] that they might see him. So James and John called together the seven disciples with Nicodemus and Joseph, and many others of the seventy-two, and they ate with Jesus.

The third day Jesus said: "Go to the Mount of Olives with my mother, for there I will ascend again to heaven, and you will see who shall bear me up." So they all went there except twenty-five of the seventy-two disciples, who for fear had fled to Damascus. And as they all stood in prayer, at midday Jesus came with a great multitude of angels who were praising God: and the splendour of his face made them greatly afraid and they fell with their faces to the ground. But Jesus lifted them up, comforting them, and saying: "Do not be afraid, I am your master."

And he reproved many who believed that he had died and risen again, saying: "Do you hold me and God for liars? I said to you that God has granted to me to live almost to the end of the world. Truly I say to you, I did not die; it was Judas the traitor. Beware, for Satan will make every effort to deceive you. Be my witnesses in israel, and throughout the world, of all things that you have heard and seen."

And having said this, he prayed God for the salvation of the faithful, and the conversion of sinners and [then], his prayer ended, he embraced his mother, saying: "Peace be to you, my mother. Rest in God who created you and me." And having said this, he turned to his disciples, saying: "May God's grace and mercy be with you." Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven.

 

222: Jesus Carried Up to Heaven

 

After Jesus had departed, the disciples scattered through the different parts of israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived. But we - as much as I have written - we preach to those that fear God, that they may be saved in the last day of God's Judgment. Amen.

END OF THE GOSPEL

 

 

look what jesus think about people think he is God

 

 

92: Hailed as God near Jordan

 

At this time we with Jesus, by the word of the holy angel, were gone to Mount Sinai. And there Jesus with his disciples kept the Forty days. When this was past, Jesus drew nigh to the river Jordan, to go to Jerusalem. And he was seen by one of them who believed Jesus to be God. Whereupon, with greatest gladness crying ever `Our God cometh!' having reached the city he moved the whole city saying: `Our God cometh, O Jerusalem; prepare thee to receive him!' And he testified that he had seen Jesus near to Jordan.

Then went out from the city every one, small and great, to see Jesus, insomuch that the city was left empty, for the women bare their children in their arms, and insomuch that they forget to take food to eat.

When they perceived this, the governor and the high-priest rode forth and sent a messenger to Herod, who in like manner rode forth to find Jesus, in order that the sedition of the people might be quieted. Whereupon for two days they sought him in the wilderness near to Jordan, and the third day they found him, near the hour of midday, when he with his disciples was purifying himself for prayer, according to the book of Moses.

Jesus marvelled greatly, seeing the multitude which covered the ground with people, and said to his disciples: `Perchance Satan hath raised sedition in Judaea. May it please God to take away from Satan the dominion which he hath over sinners.'

And when he had said this, the crowd drew nigh, and when they knew him they began to cry out: `Welcome to thee, O our God!' and they began to do him reverence, as unto God. Whereupon Jesus gave a great groan and said: `Get ye from before me, O madmen, for I fear lest the earth should open and devour me with you for your abominable words!' Whereupon the people were filled with terror and began to weep.

We have already gone over how that gospel is a medieval forgery possibly Arian. Who is using corrupt scripture I ask?

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Well this seems to be it. Well here's a quote by a Jewish rabbi after reading a Muslim vs Christian debate over this passage.

 

"A question is raised in Midrash yalkut shimoni as to what the phrase "a prophet like Moshe means" since in Devarim (Deuteronomy) chapter 34 v10 it states "never again has a prophet arisen in israel like Moshe, whom Hahem has known face to face.. וְלֹא קָם נָבִיא עוֹד בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל כְּמֹשֶׁה אֲשֶׁר יְדָעוֹ יְ־הֹוָ־ה פָּנִים אֶל פָּנִים" Thus this prophet cannot be like Moshe in his level of prophecy since it will never be equalled but will b like Moshe in other ways.

 

This prophet is generally seen as being Yirmiyahu(Jeremiah). The gematria of the phrase (in hebrew each letter has a number value) "navi akim lahem" (I will establish a prophet for them) is the same as the gematria of the phrase "zehu Yirmiyahu" (This is Yirmiyahu). The Midrash in "Pesikta derav kahana" as well as Midrash Yalkut Shimoni list 6 ways iun which Yirmiyahu was like Moshe to show how this is fulfilled:

1) They both prophesised for the whole of Bnei Yisrael for 40 years

2) They both prophesised to the entire nation- unlike some of the prophets who prophesised after the splitting of the Kingdom and only prophesised to one section

3) Moshe was thrown into the river, Yormiyahu into the pit

4) Moshe was pulled out of the river by the slave of Pharoah's daughter; Yirmiyahu was pulled from the pit by a slave

5) Both admonished the nation

 

Note: Jesus is completely and utterly meaningless in Judaism. he is NOT seen as a prophet, a Rabbi (impossible since there were no Rabbis in his time the title only starting after the destruction of the Second Temple) or even as a teacher. Obviously he is not seen as being divine or the mashiach as anyway- and anyone claming he is, is not Jewish and is not practicing the Jewish religion. Mohammed is just as irrelevant as jesus- and could not be the subject of this verse as he was never Jewish and thus is not qualified to fall under this prophecy,"

 

To me whether is Jesus or Jeremiah it does not matter. As the rabbi says the prophesied prophet would be from their brothers. In Deuteronomy brethren always referred to their fellow Jews. Examples.

 

If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thy heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother. (Deuteronomy 15:7)

 

The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with israel: They shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance. Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them. (Deuteronomy 18:1-2)

 

So whoever the prophecy was about it was not Muhammad.

Edited by Heavens Fire

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This is a quote from a debate between a Pelagian and a catholic on the biblical proof of original sin.

 

But you need to synthesize Rom 5:12 with its context and the verse I believe I mentioned: 1 Cor 15:22: ". . . in Adam all die" (NIV). Note: "IN Adam," not "because" of Adam's original sin, which gave us a propensity, and then we died because of our actual sin," as you are trying to assert. The Fall is that of the entire human race; we are all in the same boat. Calvin and Luther actually taught a more profound Fall than Catholicism holds, where all free will was destroyed, and man's very nature became a "sin nature." Catholics don't believe that. We think the main effect is concupiscence. But it is there from the beginning, before actual sin occurs. Death itself is a consequence of this; since no human is physically immortal apart from a supernatural resurrection, we are all therefore fallen (Gen 2:17, 3:1 ff.).

 

There are a host of biblical proofs for this. King David writes:

 

Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)

The context of Romans 5:12 abundantly proves this:

 

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, EVEN OVER THOSE WHO DID NOT SIN BY BREAKING A COMMAND . . . if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Paul then repeatedly contrasts this universal fall with positive parallelism of the grace available in Christ] . . . the gift of God is not like the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation . . . by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man . . . the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men . . . through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners . . .

 

(Romans 5:14-19 [NIV]; see also 5:20-21)

This is clearly teaching that all human beings were affected by original sin, whether we sin actually or not, contrary to your point of view (which I continue to say is a mild form of semi-Pelagianism). It is not their own (actual) sin which brings this about, but the sin inherited from Adam and Eve, which constitutes the Fall. We have to be saved from this abnormal state. And this is why most Christians have believed in infant and regenerative baptism, precisely because of the effects of original sin, and the need to counter them.

 

Again, your view (quite typical of Baptist-type and generic evangelical theology) is excessively individualistic. This is not the biblical outlook, which is far more communitarian (and which is behind Paul's thinking in his repeated analogies between Adam and Christ, in the above passage). Original sin is communal, and in some sense so is salvation, which is why the Bible speaks of whole households being saved, and why we believe that parents can "stand in" for infants. Indeed, in the context of Romans 5, Paul makes the same point, for in Romans 6:2-6 and hinted at after that, he follows through with his analogies by bringing in baptism: we were "buried with him" and then raised with Him in baptism (6:4).

 

The dominion of the devil is a result of original sin; it caused a catastrophic cosmic disorder (Gen 3:15, Jn 12:31, 14:30, 2 Cor 4:4, Heb 2:14, 2 Pet 2:19). That's why the theological liberals who deny original sin (if not sin itself) invariably deny the existence of the devil and evil.

 

The Gnostics and Manichaeans denied original sin by claiming that the moral corruption of mankind came from an external principle of evil. The Pelagians (like you) taught that the sin of Adam was transmitted not by inheritance but merely by the imitation of a bad example. They thought that death, suffering and concupiscence were not punishments for sin, but natural conditions for mankind, which was created in a pure state of nature. And they denied baptismal regeneration and regarded baptism as a sign only. St. Augustine fought against this, and his views were adopted by the medieval Church. Liberal Protestantism denied it.

 

More from debate here. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/biblical-evidence-for-original-sin.html?m=1

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This is a quote from a debate between a Pelagian and a catholic on the biblical proof of original sin.

 

But you need to synthesize Rom 5:12 with its context and the verse I believe I mentioned: 1 Cor 15:22: ". . . in Adam all die" (NIV). Note: "IN Adam," not "because" of Adam's original sin, which gave us a propensity, and then we died because of our actual sin," as you are trying to assert. The Fall is that of the entire human race; we are all in the same boat. Calvin and Luther actually taught a more profound Fall than Catholicism holds, where all free will was destroyed, and man's very nature became a "sin nature." Catholics don't believe that. We think the main effect is concupiscence. But it is there from the beginning, before actual sin occurs. Death itself is a consequence of this; since no human is physically immortal apart from a supernatural resurrection, we are all therefore fallen (Gen 2:17, 3:1 ff.).

 

There are a host of biblical proofs for this. King David writes:

 

Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)

The context of Romans 5:12 abundantly proves this:

 

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, EVEN OVER THOSE WHO DID NOT SIN BY BREAKING A COMMAND . . . if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Paul then repeatedly contrasts this universal fall with positive parallelism of the grace available in Christ] . . . the gift of God is not like the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation . . . by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man . . . the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men . . . through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners . . .

 

(Romans 5:14-19 [NIV]; see also 5:20-21)

This is clearly teaching that all human beings were affected by original sin, whether we sin actually or not, contrary to your point of view (which I continue to say is a mild form of semi-Pelagianism). It is not their own (actual) sin which brings this about, but the sin inherited from Adam and Eve, which constitutes the Fall. We have to be saved from this abnormal state. And this is why most Christians have believed in infant and regenerative baptism, precisely because of the effects of original sin, and the need to counter them.

 

Again, your view (quite typical of Baptist-type and generic evangelical theology) is excessively individualistic. This is not the biblical outlook, which is far more communitarian (and which is behind Paul's thinking in his repeated analogies between Adam and Christ, in the above passage). Original sin is communal, and in some sense so is salvation, which is why the Bible speaks of whole households being saved, and why we believe that parents can "stand in" for infants. Indeed, in the context of Romans 5, Paul makes the same point, for in Romans 6:2-6 and hinted at after that, he follows through with his analogies by bringing in baptism: we were "buried with him" and then raised with Him in baptism (6:4).

 

The dominion of the devil is a result of original sin; it caused a catastrophic cosmic disorder (Gen 3:15, Jn 12:31, 14:30, 2 Cor 4:4, Heb 2:14, 2 Pet 2:19). That's why the theological liberals who deny original sin (if not sin itself) invariably deny the existence of the devil and evil.

 

The Gnostics and Manichaeans denied original sin by claiming that the moral corruption of mankind came from an external principle of evil. The Pelagians (like you) taught that the sin of Adam was transmitted not by inheritance but merely by the imitation of a bad example. They thought that death, suffering and concupiscence were not punishments for sin, but natural conditions for mankind, which was created in a pure state of nature. And they denied baptismal regeneration and regarded baptism as a sign only. St. Augustine fought against this, and his views were adopted by the medieval Church. Liberal Protestantism denied it.

 

More from debate here. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/biblical-evidence-for-original-sin.html?m=1

 

do you believe in orginal sins wich we all inherit from adam and eve?

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