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Is The Bible Corrupted?

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“And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” – Surah 6:115

 

Muslims are obligated to believe the Torah and the Gospel are the word of God, so how can Muslims say they have been corrupted when this surah says no one can alter God’s word.

 

A clear contradiction...

 

 

Before anyone accuses me of taking this verse out of context let’s take a look at Surah 6:114:

 

[say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.

 

The context deals with the previous scripture which is the word of God i.e. the Torah and the Gospel. You Muslims accuse us of not knowing our bible when you seem to be ignorant of your own Quran.

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“And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” – Surah 6:115

 

Muslims are obligated to believe the Torah and the Gospel are the word of God, so how can Muslims say they have been corrupted when this surah says no one can alter God’s word.

 

A clear contradiction...

 

 

Before anyone accuses me of taking this verse out of context let’s take a look at Surah 6:114:

 

[say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.

 

The context deals with the previous scripture which is the word of God i.e. the Torah and the Gospel. You Muslims accuse us of not knowing our bible when you seem to be ignorant of your own Quran.

 

]None can alter His words[/u],

 

it does not mean that

 

(None can change His Words.) meaning, none can avert Allah's judgment whether in this life or the Hereafter,

 

quran explanation, Ibn Kathir

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=978&Itemid=61#1

 

God clearly said n quran that previous scriptures has been corrupted

and you can see it also going on until today

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and by the way, how can bible be God's word and you can find in it pornography, incest, making God fool like that God is a barber who shaves hair from people's legs and he rides little baby girl angels (cherubs) to move , like helicopter. come on man, you give atheists beating stick to hit you with.

 

can you honestly believe that it is word from God???

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That’s a poor explanation...

 

If Allah intended it to mean judgement then he would have inserted the word “judgement” rather than the word “words” in this verse. You see how the quran contradicts itself? There’s no use in watering it down with secondary definitions. The words used in scripture are chosen carefully in order to convey a mesaage. Your explanation of it's meaning contracts the literal meaning of this verse.

 

Here’s another one for you:

 

If thou were in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. (10:94)

 

Before you tell me it’s meant to be applied in the general sense only you would still have a problem. Christians generally believed in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ during the time of Mohammed. We have manuscripts predating Mohammed’s birth that contain explicitly the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. So this will contradict what has been revealed to Mohammed, hence he could not receive confirmation the quran is correct from the people of the book so the message must be a fraud.

Edited by CarlosTheJackal

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That’s a poor explanation...

 

If Allah intended it to mean judgement then he would have inserted the word “judgement” rather than the word “words” in this verse. You see how the quran contradicts itself? There’s no use in watering it down with secondary definitions. The words used in scripture are chosen carefully in order to convey a mesaage. Your explanation of it's meaning contracts the literal meaning of this verse.

 

Here’s another one for you:

 

If thou were in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. (10:94)

 

Before you tell me it’s meant to be applied in the general sense only you would still have a problem. Christians generally believed in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ during the time of Mohammed. We have manuscripts predating Mohammed’s birth that contain explicitly the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. So this will contradict what has been revealed to Mohammed, hence he could not receive confirmation the quran is correct from the people of the book so the message must be a fraud.

 

That’s a poor explanation...

 

i dont think so

 

If Allah intended it to mean judgement then he would have inserted the word “judgement” rather than the word “words” in this verse.

 

let me clearfy to you this

 

what if i say:

 

"I want to be a president in future and i will decrease taxes"

 

those are my words, and after some time i say , nobody can change my words, i said that i and i mean it i decided it so.

 

evidence

 

God says in quran:

 

11:119 ....so that the word of your Lord would be fulfilled: ‘I will fill up Hell with the jinn and mankind all together.’

 

is this not his judgment

 

as we can see here

 

“And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” – Surah 6:115

 

you see, you have to read whole quran to understand it , not only small parts.

 

 

Here’s another one for you:

 

If thou were in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. (10:94)

 

Before you tell me it’s meant to be applied in the general sense only you would still have a problem. Christians generally believed in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ during the time of Mohammed. We have manuscripts predating Mohammed’s birth that contain explicitly the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. So this will contradict what has been revealed to Mohammed, hence he could not receive confirmation the quran is correct from the people of the book so the message must be a fraud.

 

yes, jews and christians had information about promised prophet, so they waited for him, but when he came, some accepted him and some rejected him.

 

God said that he gave information in previous scriptures about muhammed and that he shall get a book (quran), that is why He tells people to ask jews and christians who waited for this prophet during those days.

 

look this man

 

 

10 My beloved is radiant and ruddy,

outstanding among ten thousand.

11 His head is purest gold;

his hair is wavy

and black as a raven.

12 His eyes are like doves

by the water streams,

washed in milk,

mounted like jewels.

13 His cheeks are like beds of spice

yielding perfume.

His lips are like lilies

dripping with myrrh.

14 His arms are rods of gold

set with topaz.

His body is like polished ivory

decorated with lapis lazuli.

15 His legs are pillars of marble

set on bases of pure gold.

His appearance is like Lebanon,

choice as its cedars.

16 His mouth is sweetness itself;

he is Muhammed(מחמד)(hebrew word in bible, look at translation).

This is my beloved, this is my friend,

daughters of Jerusalem.

-- Song of Solomon 5:10-16, NIV translation

Muhammed word from hebrew bible

 

טז
חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ,
מַחֲמַדִּ
ים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם

 

Song of Songs Chapter 5:16
His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is
Muhammed
. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem

 

 

copy this word and put it in english translation and you will get this

מחמד

 

and you will get this

34xpzxw.jpg

among ten thousand.

 

/ Muhammed was among 10 000 soldiers who conquered Mekka

 

 

his hair is wavy

and black

 

/

Description of Muhammed from Islamic litterature:

 

In Ahmad’s Musnad, with two other chains from Nafi‘ ibn Jubayr, from ‘Ali with the following respective wordings:

First wording: “The Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – was of truly imposing stature (‘azîm al-hâma), fair with a reddish hue, with a very large beard (‘azîm al-lihya), large joints, fine hands and feet, a long chest-to-navel line of hair and plentiful hair on his head (kathîra sha‘ri al-ra’si) - wavy hair (râjilahu). He walked briskly as if going downhill. He was neither tall nor short. I never saw anyone comparable before or after him.”

 

yielding perfume

 

/ his bodys sweat was like parfume, his wife collected this sweat and put it in bottle, as parfume.

 

Narrated by Hazrat Uns(RZ)

Once Rasool Allah went to her wife Hazrat Ume e Salma's house. she wasn’t there .so Rasool Allah rested on bed. When Ume e Salma know that Rasool Allah has arrived she came back and saw him(SAW) resting and his sweat was gathered on leather's bed. Hazrat Ume E Salma begin collecting his sweat in a bottle...mean while Rasool Allah wake up and asked "what you doing" she replied. "Ya Rasool Allah this is ur sweat. i shell use it as perfume and this is more delightful then any other perfume"....

(Sahi Muslim, Qitab ul Fazail, n 2331)

 

 

Christians generally believed in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ during the time of Mohammed

 

tell me something

 

If jesus died and ressurected tell me why did he not become spiritualised like angels, like he said, that ressurected body get spiritualised like angels, while he came to his disciples in body, flesh and bones.

 

 

We have manuscripts predating Mohammed’s birth that contain explicitly the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

 

how can you believe manuscripts who dont agree with eachother, and portraying God as barber who shaves hair from people's legs??

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Another poor explanation that contradicts the literal meaning of the quran in both verses. You have this tendency to side track without giving an acceptable explanation. You haven’t convinced me...

 

My conviction still stands.

 

See ya mate.

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Another poor explanation that contradicts the literal meaning of the quran in both verses. You have this tendency to side track without giving an acceptable explanation. You haven’t convinced me...

 

My conviction still stands.

 

See ya mate.

 

 

here we see that God urges muslims to ask jews and christians about awaited prophet

 

If thou were in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. (10:94)

 

we see here why God urges muslims to ask jews and christians

 

 

6:20 Those who were given the Book (before) know him (the Messenger with all his distinguishing attributes) as they know their own sons; yet those who ruin their own selves (by concealing this truth, being overcome by their lusts and worldly interests) – they do not believe.

 

do you see it now, if God informed jews and christians in previous books about Muhammed, that is why God tells us muslims to ask jews and christians about awaited prophet...

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God speaks in bible about this prophet:

 

<< Deuteronomy 18:18-19 >>

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

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It doesn’t say anything about the long awaited prophet, it’s talking about confirmation of the revelations that Mohammed had received. God said to Mohammed if he had doubts about these revelations then he should seek the people of the book for confirmation. Their book contained the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ hence they contradict the revelations Mohammed received so now you Muslims have a big problem because Mohammed was suppose to receive confirmation of these revelations but all he got were contradictions which means his revelations are not divinely inspired.

 

That’s the third time you contradict the literal meaning Mr bible scholar.

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It doesn’t say anything about the long awaited prophet, it’s talking about confirmation of the revelations that Mohammed had received. God said to Mohammed if he had doubts about these revelations then he should seek the people of the book for confirmation. Their book contained the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ hence they contradict the revelations Mohammed received so now you Muslims have a big problem because Mohammed was suppose to receive confirmation of these revelations but all he got were contradictions which means his revelations are not divinely inspired.

 

That’s the third time you contradict the literal meaning Mr bible scholar.

 

if you a such believer in jesus resusrection explain to us now

 

If jesus died and ressurected tell me why did he not become spiritualised like angels, like he said, that ressurected body get spiritualised like angels, while he came to his disciples in body, flesh and bones. why?

 

i tell you why, beacuse he never died nor ressurected. it was like God said in quran, he raised him up to himslef alive.

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It doesn’t say anything about the long awaited prophet, it’s talking about confirmation of the revelations that Mohammed had received.

 

of course it does, even that he shall get a book and what he shall say when he meet angel gabriel

 

Un-lettered Prophet

 

Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaish. Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Readin g', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Cathol ics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghose - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : "READ!").

Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly know "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).

 

Important note :

 

It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles(12) in existence in the 6th Century of the Christian Era when Muhummed lived and preachedl Besides, he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was his Creator:

"HE DOES NOT SPEAK (AUGHT), OF (HIS OWN) DESIRE:

IT IS NO LESS THAN INSPIRATION SENT DOWN TO HIM:

HE WAS TAUGHT BY ONE MIGHTY IN POWER,"

(Holy Qur'an 53:3-5).

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I can’t believe how far your bias and ignorance has taken you. You have already been refuted by Augustine regarding Deuteronomy chapter 18 here

 

Since you’re in the custom of praising yourself for knowing the bible so well you should be familiar with the following passage:

 

“the Lord may grant you times of refreshment and send you the Messiah already appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the times of universal restoration of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old. For Moses said: 'A prophet like me will the Lord, your God, raise up for you from among your own kinsmen; to him you shall listen in all that he may say to you. Everyone who does not listen to that prophet will be cut off from the people.' – Acts 3:20-23

 

This very clearly shows Jesus is the fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:15 as it directly quotes it. There’s no mention of Mohammed anywhere in the context. Since you’re also in the custom of being a logical person it would not be logical and in fact foolish of you to deny Jesus is not the fulfilment in this passage. But then again as a Muslim I expect you to twist and turn in interpreting what I quoted.

 

And here

 

Nice attempt to cop out mate but it won’t work. It’s obvious there’s no way you can get around the passage I quoted no matter how much information you post. You claim you know the bible yet you don’t know who wrote the book of Acts; it was not Paul it was Luke which presents you with two problems.

  • The author Luke who wrote the Gospel is the same Luke that wrote the book of Acts. You have quoted the Gospel of to Luke many times in the past so you can’t pick and choose which verses suit you and which verses you deem void as Luke is the author of both books.

  • Luke was the disciple and follower of Paul so the Gospel Luke wrote was heavily influenced by Paul. You’re going to have to take back all those times you’ve quoted the Gospel written by Luke since you don’t believe in Paul.

You’ve demonstrated you don’t know the bible as well as you thought you did. I will say it one more time brother, there’s no use trying to exploit the bible if you’re trying to convert people to Islam that method hardly works. If you wish to convert people be the best Muslim you can be.

 

God bless,

 

Can’t you see how blind you’ve become? Wake up man it’s time to repent. If you continue to use Deuteronomy chapter 18 after this refutation then I will shake the dust from my feet and leave you in God’s mercy.

Edited by CarlosTheJackal

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I can’t believe how far your bias and ignorance has taken you. You have already been refuted by Augustine regarding Deuteronomy chapter 18 here

 

 

 

And here

 

 

 

Can’t you see how blind you’ve become? Wake up man it’s time to repent. If you continue to use Deuteronomy chapter 18 after this refutation then I will shake the dust from my feet and leave you in God’s mercy.

 

how is Jesus prophet like moses, it is more propriate that it is Muhammed,

 

read this, from debate between muslim and christian where he presents proof that bible speak about Muhammed

 

HERE IS DEATILED ANALYSIS WHY THAT VERSE SPEAK ABOUT MUHAMMED AND NOT JESUS.

 

Why nothing?

I posed the question: "What does the Bible say about Muhummed?" Without hesitation he answered, "Nothing!" I asked: "Why nothing? According to your interpretation the Bible have so many things to say about the rise of Soviet Russia and about the Last Days and even about the Pope of the Roman Ca tholics?" He said, "Yes, but there was nothing about Muhummed!" I asked again, "Why nothing? Surely this man Muhummed who had been responsible for the bringing into being a world-wide community of millions of Believers who, on his authority, believe in:

(1) the miraculous birth of Jesus,

(2) that Jesus is the Messiah,(note 6)

(3) that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.

Surely this book (the Bible) must have something to say about this great Leader of men who spoke so well of Jesus and his mother Mary?"

The old man from the Free State replied. "My son, I have been reading the Bible for the past 50 years, and if there was any mention of him, I would have known it."

 

Not One by name!

I enquired: "According to you, are there not hundreds of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament." The dominee interjected: "Not hundreds, but thousands!" I said, "I am not going to dispute the 'thousand and one' prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the coming of Jesu s Christ, because the whole Muslim-world has already accepted him without the testimony of any Biblical prophecy. We Muslims have accepted the de facto Jesus on the authority of Muhummed alone, and there are in the world today no less than 900,000,000 followers of Muhummed who love, respect and rev ere Jesus Christ as a great Messenger of God without having the Christians to convince them by means of their Biblical dialectics. Out of the 'thousands' of prophecies referred to, can you please give me just one single prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by name? The term 'Messiah', translated as 'C hrist', is not a name but a title. Is there a single Prophecy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be JESUS, and that his mother's name will be MARY, that his supposed father will be JOSEPH THE CARPENTER; that he will be born in the reign of HEROD THE KING, etc. etc.? No! There are no su ch details! Then how can you conclude that those 'thousand' Prophecies refer to Jesus (Peace be upon him)?"

 

What is Prophecy?

The dominee replies: "You see, prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. When that thing actually comes to pass, we see vividly in these prophecies the fulfilment of what had been predicted in the past." I said: "What you actually do is that you deduce, yo u reason, you put two and two together." He said: "Yes." I said: "If this is what you have to do with a 'thousand' prophecies to justify your claim with regards to the genuineness of Jesus, why should we not adopt the very same system for Muhummed?" The dominee agreed that it was a fair proposition , a reasonable way of dealing with the problem.

I asked him to open up Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18, which he did. I read from memory the verse in Afrikaans, because this was my purpose in having a little practice with the language of the ruling race in South Africa. (8)

'N PROFEET SAL EK VIR HULLE VERWEK UIT DIE MIDDE VAN HULLE BROERS, SOOS JY IS, EN EK SAL MY WOORDE IN SY MOND LE, EN HY SY SAL AAN HULLE SE ALLE WAT EK HOM BEVEEL. Deut.18: 18.

The English translation reads as follows:-

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,

like unto thee,

and I will put my words in his mouth;

and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18.

 

Prophet Like Moses

Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologised for my uncertain pronunciation, The dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I enquired: "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "JESUS!" I asked: "Why Jesus?... his name is not mentioned here." The domin ee replied: "Since prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'SOOS JY IS' (like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses, and Jesus is like Moses. " I questioned: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "SOOS JY IS". "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblica l personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL Jews as well as Prophets. Why should we not apply this prophency to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of anoth er?" The dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."

 

Three Unlikes

So staying, I reasoned with him: "In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! SECONDLY, according to you - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Mose s did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses! THIRDLY, according to you - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s." I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" "But dominee," I continued: "these are not hard facts, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, shall we?" The dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion.

 

Father and Mother

(1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "DAAROM IS JESUS NIE SOOS MOSES NIE, MAAR MUHUMMED IS SOOS MOSES!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is lik e Moses!" (By now the reader will realise that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration).

 

Miraculous Birth

(2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St.Matthew 1:18".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST.' And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announded to her, Mary reasoned:'.......HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE:......'(Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:

" O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? "

The angel says in reply:

"EVEN SO:

Allah CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH:

WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN,

HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE,"

AND IT IS " (9) (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47).

It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus.

(When I compared the Qur'an and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest City, and when I enquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the QUR'ANIC version or the BIBLICAL version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Qur'anic.") In short, I said to the dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhummed?"He replied proudly:"Yes!" I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Marriage Ties

(3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Jesus Rejected by his People

(3) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life imposs ible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, ofter two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejeted him. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES."

 

"Other-Wordly" Kingdom

(5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day , and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people. There are instances in the Bible of persons who wer e given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their mesage, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charg e: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE"(John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possessio n of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true?" The dominee answered:"Yes." I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

No New Laws

(6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.

"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

"As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an imposter with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT IAM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: IAM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they al wasy levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed. Is this true?" I asked the dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said:"Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

How they Departed

(7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.(10) Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Heavenly Abode

(8) "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Is this true?" The dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Ishmael The First Born

Since the dominee was helplessly agreeing with every point, I said, "Dominee, so far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy- that is proving the phrase 'LIKE UNTO THEE' - 'Like You' 'Like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows : "I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the arabs. You see, the Holy Bible s peaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham(11) called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and sed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, wh o was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.

 

Arabs and Jews

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the israeli tes beause he was a descendant of Ishamel the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of israel' or from 'among the mselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

 

Words in the Mouth

"The prophecy proceeds further:'.......AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.......' What does it mean when it is said 'I will put my words in your mouth'? You see, when I asked you (the dominee) to open Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 18, at the beginning, and if I had asked you to read, and if you had read: would I be putting my words into your mouth?" The dominee answered: "No." "But," I continued: "If I were to teach you a language like Arabic about which you have no knowledge, and if I asked you to read or repeat after me what I utter i.e.:

"SAY: HE IS Allah THE ONE AND ONLY;

Allah, THE ETERNAL ABSOLUTE;

HE BEGETTETH NOT, NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN:

AND THERE IS NONE LIKE UNTO HIM.

(Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)( I read them in Arabic )

Would I not be putting these unheard words of a foreign tongue which you utter, into your mouth?" The dominee agreed that it was indeed so. In an identical manner, I said, the words of the Holy Qur'an, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Muhummed, were revealed.

History tells us that Muhummed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue:'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Muhummed w as terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was not NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues.

Now Muhummed, grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

"READ! IN THE NAME OF THE LORD AND CHERISHER, WHO CREATED-

CREATED MAN, FROM A (MERE) CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD:

READ! AND THY LORD IS MOST BOUNTIFUL,-

HE WHO TAUGHT (THE USE OF) THE PEN,

TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH HE KNEW NOT".

(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Muhummed which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an.

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Assalamualaikum Rahamatullahi Wabarakathu

 

Carlos the jackal

 

your name reminds me robert ludlum's the bourne's series namely broune identity and broune ultimatum and one more name i dont remember

but i think carlos the jackal used to be the villain"s name and he is KGB agent left out of thrown out

am i correct

i really enjoyed those books while i was in college

 

Btw , my question to you is ,do you belive present bible or torah are the words of GOD

 

Mushtaq

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andalusi,

 

That is a very good attempt of taking scripture out of context, but we both know muhammad was not the fortold prophet in the bible.

Its quite easy to believe that if you have deut 18:15 by itself, and other passages claim to be speaking about muhammad.

But it is clearly established that he is not, there are many arguments about this on the internet, but again and again it is proven that muhammad is NOT mentioned in the bible.

 

Peace

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how is Jesus prophet like moses, it is more propriate that it is Muhammed,

 

read this, from debate between muslim and christian where he presents proof that bible speak about Muhammed

 

HERE IS DEATILED ANALYSIS WHY THAT VERSE SPEAK ABOUT MUHAMMED AND NOT JESUS.

 

Why nothing?

I posed the question: "What does the Bible say about Muhummed?" Without hesitation he answered, "Nothing!" I asked: "Why nothing? According to your interpretation the Bible have so many things to say about the rise of Soviet Russia and about the Last Days and even about the Pope of the Roman Ca tholics?" He said, "Yes, but there was nothing about Muhummed!" I asked again, "Why nothing? Surely this man Muhummed who had been responsible for the bringing into being a world-wide community of millions of Believers who, on his authority, believe in:

(1) the miraculous birth of Jesus,

(2) that Jesus is the Messiah,(note 6)

(3) that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.

Surely this book (the Bible) must have something to say about this great Leader of men who spoke so well of Jesus and his mother Mary?"

The old man from the Free State replied. "My son, I have been reading the Bible for the past 50 years, and if there was any mention of him, I would have known it."

 

Not One by name!

I enquired: "According to you, are there not hundreds of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament." The dominee interjected: "Not hundreds, but thousands!" I said, "I am not going to dispute the 'thousand and one' prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the coming of Jesu s Christ, because the whole Muslim-world has already accepted him without the testimony of any Biblical prophecy. We Muslims have accepted the de facto Jesus on the authority of Muhummed alone, and there are in the world today no less than 900,000,000 followers of Muhummed who love, respect and rev ere Jesus Christ as a great Messenger of God without having the Christians to convince them by means of their Biblical dialectics. Out of the 'thousands' of prophecies referred to, can you please give me just one single prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by name? The term 'Messiah', translated as 'C hrist', is not a name but a title. Is there a single Prophecy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be JESUS, and that his mother's name will be MARY, that his supposed father will be JOSEPH THE CARPENTER; that he will be born in the reign of HEROD THE KING, etc. etc.? No! There are no su ch details! Then how can you conclude that those 'thousand' Prophecies refer to Jesus (Peace be upon him)?"

 

What is Prophecy?

The dominee replies: "You see, prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. When that thing actually comes to pass, we see vividly in these prophecies the fulfilment of what had been predicted in the past." I said: "What you actually do is that you deduce, yo u reason, you put two and two together." He said: "Yes." I said: "If this is what you have to do with a 'thousand' prophecies to justify your claim with regards to the genuineness of Jesus, why should we not adopt the very same system for Muhummed?" The dominee agreed that it was a fair proposition , a reasonable way of dealing with the problem.

I asked him to open up Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18, which he did. I read from memory the verse in Afrikaans, because this was my purpose in having a little practice with the language of the ruling race in South Africa. (8)

'N PROFEET SAL EK VIR HULLE VERWEK UIT DIE MIDDE VAN HULLE BROERS, SOOS JY IS, EN EK SAL MY WOORDE IN SY MOND LE, EN HY SY SAL AAN HULLE SE ALLE WAT EK HOM BEVEEL. Deut.18: 18.

The English translation reads as follows:-

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,

like unto thee,

and I will put my words in his mouth;

and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18.

 

Prophet Like Moses

Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologised for my uncertain pronunciation, The dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I enquired: "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "JESUS!" I asked: "Why Jesus?... his name is not mentioned here." The domin ee replied: "Since prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'SOOS JY IS' (like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses, and Jesus is like Moses. " I questioned: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "SOOS JY IS". "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblica l personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL Jews as well as Prophets. Why should we not apply this prophency to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of anoth er?" The dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."

 

Three Unlikes

So staying, I reasoned with him: "In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! SECONDLY, according to you - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Mose s did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses! THIRDLY, according to you - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s." I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" "But dominee," I continued: "these are not hard facts, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, shall we?" The dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion.

 

Father and Mother

(1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "DAAROM IS JESUS NIE SOOS MOSES NIE, MAAR MUHUMMED IS SOOS MOSES!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is lik e Moses!" (By now the reader will realise that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration).

 

Miraculous Birth

(2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St.Matthew 1:18".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST.' And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announded to her, Mary reasoned:'.......HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE:......'(Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:

" O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? "

The angel says in reply:

"EVEN SO:

Allah CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH:

WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN,

HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE,"

AND IT IS " (9) (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47).

It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus.

(When I compared the Qur'an and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest City, and when I enquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the QUR'ANIC version or the BIBLICAL version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Qur'anic.") In short, I said to the dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhummed?"He replied proudly:"Yes!" I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Marriage Ties

(3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Jesus Rejected by his People

(3) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life imposs ible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, ofter two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejeted him. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES."

 

"Other-Wordly" Kingdom

(5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day , and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people. There are instances in the Bible of persons who wer e given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their mesage, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charg e: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE"(John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possessio n of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true?" The dominee answered:"Yes." I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

No New Laws

(6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.

"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

"As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an imposter with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT IAM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: IAM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they al wasy levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed. Is this true?" I asked the dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said:"Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

How they Departed

(7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.(10) Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Heavenly Abode

(8) "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Is this true?" The dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

 

Ishmael The First Born

Since the dominee was helplessly agreeing with every point, I said, "Dominee, so far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy- that is proving the phrase 'LIKE UNTO THEE' - 'Like You' 'Like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows : "I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the arabs. You see, the Holy Bible s peaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham(11) called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and sed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, wh o was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.

 

Arabs and Jews

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the israeli tes beause he was a descendant of Ishamel the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of israel' or from 'among the mselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

 

Words in the Mouth

"The prophecy proceeds further:'.......AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.......' What does it mean when it is said 'I will put my words in your mouth'? You see, when I asked you (the dominee) to open Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 18, at the beginning, and if I had asked you to read, and if you had read: would I be putting my words into your mouth?" The dominee answered: "No." "But," I continued: "If I were to teach you a language like Arabic about which you have no knowledge, and if I asked you to read or repeat after me what I utter i.e.:

"SAY: HE IS Allah THE ONE AND ONLY;

Allah, THE ETERNAL ABSOLUTE;

HE BEGETTETH NOT, NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN:

AND THERE IS NONE LIKE UNTO HIM.

(Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)( I read them in Arabic )

Would I not be putting these unheard words of a foreign tongue which you utter, into your mouth?" The dominee agreed that it was indeed so. In an identical manner, I said, the words of the Holy Qur'an, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Muhummed, were revealed.

History tells us that Muhummed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue:'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Muhummed w as terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was not NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues.

Now Muhummed, grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

"READ! IN THE NAME OF THE LORD AND CHERISHER, WHO CREATED-

CREATED MAN, FROM A (MERE) CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD:

READ! AND THY LORD IS MOST BOUNTIFUL,-

HE WHO TAUGHT (THE USE OF) THE PEN,

TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH HE KNEW NOT".

(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Muhummed which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an.

Still trying to convince people that Muhummed in in the Bible from Deut 18? When are you going to give up that flawed argument? I will post your answer below as to why what you believe about Deut 18 is false.

 

Answering The Attempt to Find Muhammad in Biblical

Prophecy

 

 

by

 

 

Jeff Childers

 

 

Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in the United States. This is

based both on the immigration of Muslim people and on effective proselytism.

Christians are not immune to Muslim "evangelism." The Christian community most

affected so far has been the predominantly Protestant African American

community. Catholicism has not been targeted as adamantly, and so the American

Church's response to Islam has not been overwhelming. However, more and more

converts are being made each year. People are abandoning their faith in Jesus

the Incarnate God-Man and his Holy Catholic Church or the Churches of our

separated brethren in order to embrace a foreign and heretical ideology. While

Islam should be held in esteem for its high moral ethic and its faith in the one

true and living God, the Catholic must be ready to both defend his faith and

share the fullness of truth with Muslims.

 

 

Nobody converts from one faith to another without a reason. Islam's American

success has not been the result of any show of force. Rather, the success has

been partially due to Islam's embracing of the much wronged black culture and

partially due to Muslim apologetics. The main focus of this article is to

examine Muslim apologists' claims to find Muhammad prophesied in the Bible.

 

 

The Qur'an

 

 

Islam's holy book is the Qur'an, a collection of revelations supposedly made

by God to the Prophet Muhammad between 610 and 632 AD. Translator N. J. Dawood

writes that "for Muslims, (the Qur'an) is the infallible Word of God, a

transcript of a tablet preserved in heaven, revealed to the Prophet Muhammad by

the Angel Gabriel." (1) As the revelations came to the illiterate Muhammad

through the years, he recited them orally to his disciples. The disciples

memorized them, and recorded them after the prophet's death.

 

 

Muslims view the Qur'an as the final revelation of God, a culmination of the

Old and New Testaments. Muhammad is believed to be the last and greatest of a

long line of prophets, including Adam, Abraham, Ishmael, Moses, and Jesus.

Islamic salvation history portrays each of these prophets as messengers of

Islam. To the Muslim, Islam is the true faith from which God's people fell away

time and time again until the advent of the Prophet.

 

 

In the seventh Surah of the Qur'an, the Heights, God proclaims:

 

 

 

"I will show mercy to those that keep from evil and give alms, and to

those that in our signs believe; to those that shall follow (Muhammad) the

Apostle--the Unlettered Prophet--whom they shall find described in the Torah and

in the Gospel."

 

 

While a few over zealous Muslim apologists identify almost all Messianic

prophecy with Muhammad, most are wise enough to recognize the fallacy in that.

The majority of today's Muslim apologists rely on three passages of Scripture to

support the Qur'anic claim: Deuteronomy 18, Isaiah 42, and John 14.

 

 

Deueteronomy 18: A Prophet From Among Your Brothers

 

 

Addressing the people of israel, Moses prophesied the coming of a prophet

whom Muslim apologists identify with Muhammad.

 

 

 

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your

own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the Lord

your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Let us not hear the

voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.' The

Lord said to me: ‘What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like

you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will

tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that

the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.'"

(Deuteronomy 18:15-20)

 

 

There are two points in this passage which are significant to the Muslim.

First, the prophet is promised to come "from among your own brothers." The

israelites to whom Moses spoke were the descendants of Abraham through his son

Isaac. Isaac's brother was Ishmael. Ishmael's descendants are the Arab peoples.

israel's brothers, then, are the Arabs. This passage is speaking of an Arab

prophet. Muhammad is the only candidate for an Arab prophet in the line of Old

Testament prophets.

 

 

The second important point in this passage is that God "will put (his)

words in (the prophet's) mouth." This prophet is one who will preach the

divine message orally. No mention is here made of any writings. To learn the

truth, one must listen to the voice of the prophet. This was fulfilled in

Muhammad the Unlettered Prophet who, illiterate, proclaimed his message entirely

orally.

 

 

These Muslim arguments are plausible only when this passage in taken out of

the context of the entire plan of God. It is true that Arabs are descended from

the brother of Isaac. However, Jews always reserved the word "brothers" for

their own kind. The rift between Jews and Ishmaelites was deep. So deep, in

fact, that it continues today, some 35 centuries later. Muslim apologists should

be asked to consider how Moses describes the neighboring people, including the

Arab "brothers," in the verses which immediately precede v. 15:

 

 

 

"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to

imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you

who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or

sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a

medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is

detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your

God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the

Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:9-14)

 

 

There was no brotherly love between Jews and Arabs! The prophet like Moses

was to be a Jew.

 

 

Secondly, the fact that God will put his words into the prophet's mouth

hardly proves that the prophet must be "unlettered." Every prophet's main duty

was oral proclamation of the Word of God. This is why the Catholic rejects the

Protestant notion of sola scriptura. God's message has always been revealed

primarily by oral means. Only later were the messages of the prophets written

down. Even if it is granted that the prophet must not write, this still does not

prove it to be Muhammad.

 

 

Muslim apologists should consider that great prophets such as Elijah, Elisha,

Nathan, and John the Baptist all came after Moses and all wrote nothing.

 

 

There is a prophet who does fit the bill. This prophet is Jewish, from among

the israelite's brothers. The words of God were in this prophet's mouth. Plus,

if the Muslim is insistent on this as well, this prophet wrote nothing. The

prophet of Deuteronomy is none other than Jesus: "We have found the one about

whom Moses wrote in the Law, and also the prophets, Jesus son of Joseph, from

Nazareth." (John 1:45)

 

 

Isaiah 42: A Chip Off The Ol' Kedar

 

 

Muslim apologists claim that the Prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of

Muhammad.

 

 

 

"Here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one with whom I am pleased,

upon whom I have put my Spirit; he shall bring forth justice to the

nations...Sing to the Lord a new song, his praise from the end of the earth: Let

the sea and what fills it resound, the coast lands, and those who dwell in them.

Let the steppe and its cities cry out, the villages where Kedar dwells; let the

inhabitants of Sela exult and shout from the mountains." (Isaiah

42:1ff)

 

 

The man Kedar was the son of Ishmael and one of the patriarchs of the Arab

people, as well as an ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad. Sela is the name of an

Arab city, the capitol of Edom. Therefore, claims the Muslim, the servant, God's

chosen one (Arabic "Mustafa"), must be an Arab descendant of Kedar. Dr. Salah el

Dareer writes: "In verse 11, (the servant) is identified specifically as

Kedar and Sela. Kedar or ‘Qaydar' was one of Ishmael's sons and an ancestor of

Muhammad--peace be upon him--and Sela was the name of an Arabian city...It is

significant that Isaiah identifies the universal prophet both by nation, namely

Arab, and tribal descendant, namely Kedar, whose descendants are the tribe of

Koreish that lived in Mecca, from whom Muhammad came." (2)

 

 

The Muslim interpretation of this passage has several major flaws. First of

all, as Dr. El Dareer stated, Muslims claim that Isaiah identifies the servant

as a member of the Kedar clan. This is untrue. The context of the passage shows

that the servant is to be a universal prophet, who will return God's covenant to

all peoples. Kedar and Sela are used as examples of foreign people brought back

into the Lord's fold.

 

 

Similar things are promised to Egypt, Ethiopia, and Seba. The servant can't

come from all four nations. It is more reasonable to assume, then, that this

prophet of the Jewish scriptures will be Jewish.

 

 

Muslim apologists should be asked to consider the words of this prophecy.

Muhammad was not only a religious leader, he was also a warlord. He spread Islam

by warfare, and conquered for himself a sizable empire. His Holy Qur'an

proclaims: "Slay the infidel wherever you find them!" This is not meant to be an

ad hominem attack. Muhammad's character and the prudence of his military

exploits are not under consideration here. However, his life of battle proves

that he is not the servant of prophecy. Dear Muslim friend, please carefully

read the words of the prophecy:

 

 

 

"Here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one with whom I am pleased,

upon whom I have put my Spirit. He shall bring forth justice to the nations, not

crying out, not shouting, not making his voice heard in the street. A bruised

reed he shall not break, and a smoldering wick he shall not quench, until he

establishes justice on the earth; the coast lands will wait for his

teaching." (Isaiah 42:1-4)

 

 

The servant is a man of peace, not of war. That man is none other than the

Prince of Peace himself, Jesus Christ.

 

 

John 14: Muhammad the Paraclete

 

 

Since the Qu'ran recognizes Jesus as a true prophet of God, it is essential

to Muslim apologists that he be portrayed as paving the way for Muhammad. There

is only one possibility in all the gospels. Only once does Jesus foretell the

coming of another leader. "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another

Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world can not

accept, because it neither sees nor knows it." (John 14:16,17) Islamic

apologists argue that the Advocate is Muhammad.

 

 

The Muslim interpretation of this passage is untenable for several reasons.

First and foremost, the passage explicitly states who the Advocate is: "the

Spirit of truth which the world can not accept," and again in verse 26,

"the Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name."

 

 

The Islamic understanding of this passage is also flawed because, once again,

Muhammad does not fit the description of the promised one.

 

 

This Paraclete (Advocate or Comforter) is promised directly to the apostles.

Muhammad was born in 570 AD and began his ministry in 610 AD, centuries after

the apostles died. Christ's Advocate is to "remain with you always." The Prophet

Muhammad died June 8, 632. The Advocate is to "be in you." Muhammad was but a

man, flesh and bone, who could not possess anyone.

 

 

The Paraclete is God the Holy Spirit. He was sent to the apostles on the Day

of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2. By guiding the Church as the soul of the

Body of Christ, this Advocate remains with us always.

 

 

The Credibility of Scripture

 

 

These three passages--Deuteronomy 18, Isaiah 42, and John 14--represent

Islam's best attempt to find Muhammad in the Bible. When placed back into the

proper context, these passages clearly speak of Jesus Christ and the Holy

Spirit, not Muhammad. Muslim apologists have an answer to this. They claim that

the Bible has been corrupted by Jews and Christians. This has been their fall

back technique since the very beginning. Even the Qur'an declares: "People of

the Book, now there has come to you our Messenger, making clear to you many

things you have been concealing of the Book, and defacing many things." When

Muhammad recognized that the locutions which he received from a spirit being did

not jive with the Scripture, he simply claimed that the Scriptures had been

corrupted.

 

 

Today's apologists mirror the tactic of their prophet. When faced with the

evidence that the Advocate of John 14 is specifically called the Holy Spirit,

Dr. Salah el Dareer asserted that "the expression, 'which is the Holy Ghost'

(v. 26 KJV), is a manifest interpolation put in by the unknown author of this

gospel or by a later copyist." (3) Dr. El Dareer's copyist could not been

much later, since manuscript and patristic evidence proves that the Old

Testament has not changed at all from the second century BC, and the New

Testament from the second century AD.

 

 

Oxford theologian Stephen Neill describes Islamic apologetics: "It is well

known that at many points the Qur'an does not agree with the Jews and Christian

Scriptures. Therefore, from the Muslim point of view, it follows of necessity

that these Scriptures must have been corrupted. Historical evidence makes no

impression on the crushing force of the syllogism. So it is, and it can be no

other way. The Muslim controversialist feels no need to study evidence in

detail."(4)

 

 

Muslims should be called on their inconsistency. The Qur'an directs them to

search the Old and New Testaments for the truth. Yet, when this truth disproves

Islam, the same Qur'an condemns the Bible.

 

 

The Muslim Secret Weapon

 

 

Muslim apologists claim to have a secret weapon which proves that the

Christian Scriptures have been corrupted. Islamic apologists claim that St.

Barnabas wrote a Gospel which was once considered canonical. It was condemned by

Pope Gelasius and almost all copies destroyed. The Gospel was lost until the

16th century, when an Italian Muslim discovered it, supposedly in the Vatican

library.

 

 

From the very beginning of this Gospel, its author makes his purpose clear:

"Barnabas, apostle of Jesus the Nazarene, called Christ, to all them that

dwell upon the earth...(M)any, being deceived of Satan, under pretense of piety,

are preaching most impious doctrine, calling Jesus Son of God...among whom is

Paul deceived." The Gospel presents a fanciful story of Christ's calling, of

his revelation of God's will, his betrayal, and his rescue from death. Judas, in

this Gospel, is crucified in place of Christ, who was taken up into heaven.

 

 

Of greatest importance to Muslim apologists are Christ's clear prophecies of

Muhammad's advent:

 

 

 

"Then said Jesus: ‘So secret is predestination, O brethren, that I say

unto you, only to one man shall it be clearly known. He it is whom the nations

look for, to whom the secrets of God are so clear that, when he cometh into the

world, blessed shall they be that shall listen to his words...He is Muhammad,

messenger of God...He is a white cloud full of the mercy of God, which mercy God

shall sprinkle upon the faithful like rain.'" (Barnabas 163)

 

 

If it could be proven that these words were those of Barnabas or any other

early Christian author, the Muslim would have a powerful argument. However, like

all other Muslim apologetics, this is wrought with problems. Pages can (and

have) been written documenting the contradictions within this Gospel, between

the Gospel and the Bible, and between the Gospel and the Qur'an. The claim that

this Gospel was considered canonical is false. It is the Epistle of Barnabas,

never lost and completely consistent with orthodox Catholicism, that was

sometimes considered canonical, and it makes no mention of Muhammad.

 

 

A Gnostic Gospel of Barnabas existed in the early centuries of the Church. It

no longer exists today. However, as a Gnostic Gospel, it proclaimed a message of

occult polytheism, which the Muslim would rightly reject. This Gnostic work was

condemned by Pope Gelasius. No evidence exists which would place the Muslim

Gospel of Barnabas before the 16th century. It is a blatant forgery by an

Italian Muslim so jaded that he would deceive in the name of God.

 

 

There's No Need For Muhammad

 

 

The entire message of the Bible reveals God's plan to redeem mankind and

unite all nations in one universal covenant family and kingdom. This was all

fulfilled in the advent of Jesus Christ, the God-Man, and his Holy Catholic

Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth."(1 Timothy 3:15)

 

 

Having accomplished all this, what need is there for a new prophet, a new

book, or a new faith? All nations are now united in God's Church. In every

nation from east to west, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is offered, just as the

Prophet Malachi foretold. To be honest, Muhammad, Islam, and the Qur'an, if

legitimate, would be the greatest anti-climaxes of salvation history. Catholics

should be ready to show Muslim apologists that the truth, the fullness of truth,

lies in Jesus Christ, the only name under heaven by which we can be saved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) N.J. Dawood, translator. The Koran. "Introduction" New York: Penguin, 1956.

 

(2) Hiram Hutto and Dr. Salah el Dareer. The Hutto-El Dareer Debate.

Indianapolis: Faith and Facts, 1974.

(3) ibid.

(4) Quoted in: John

Ankerberg and John Weldon. The Facts on Islam. Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1991.

 

 

source for above is here.

 

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At every religious message board you eventually reach the point where you've said everything you have to say and just find yourself endlessly repeating the same few statements, only occasionally in the presence of a newcomer or two, and never ever getting through to them in the slightest. Nonetheless after seeing that article and realizing how right I was the first time about Muslims and Christian evangelists forever being trapped in the same few endlessly repeating arguments I thought it might be useful to codify and summarize what I have to say about Christianity here, especially after seeing that article. One more time. It all boils down to just a few points:

 

First, it doesn't even matter whether or not anything in the Bible foretells Muhammad since the Gospel the Koran refers to was one that Jesus himself (P) wrote or in some way contributed to the writing of. It was not any of the "canonical" Gospels. John 1:19-25 *does* look awful fishy, and not one single explanation that Christians have brought forth to explain it away has yet worked, but in the end this is piddlesticks, water off a duck's back for us if it does turn out that I'm wrong. I have already exhausted all the evidence and arguments for both of these matters at http://www.gawaher.com/topic/740077-how-should-we-read-the-gospels-part-1/ and don't want to copy and paste it here.

 

Second, the Deuteronomy passage I got tired of talking about years ago but one way or another in light of point #1 it's useless to use biblical passages as support for it when arguing the matter with Muslims. Not that this is going to stop them. The rest of the literary and scholarly world has come to accept that Moses (P) did not write all of the modern day Pentateuch (especially when you consider that it chronicles his own death)--indeed, there is a common theory that it actually consists of four different, alternating, quite contradictory texts--just as David (P) was not the author of all of the "Davidic" psalms. A great many Christians accept it too. Not so with evangelicals. I have banged my fists against the barriers you people have built around your minds time and again when it comes to getting you to accept the corruption of the Bible. I point out that entire stories are missing from some manuscripts, whole verses, entire books, phrases that alter the meaning of a verse in a way that could affect doctrine, references to the divinity, references to the ascension to heaven, and what response do I get? A quotation from a book called "Defending the Faith" which asserts vaguely that "most scholars" say that manuscript variations don't take away anything to do with Jesus's mission. "Allah has sealed their hearts and eyes.". Remember that article I posted and how it said 2 Peter was actually written around 130, long after Peter died? It follows of necessity from the Muslim point of view indeed that the Christian scriptures must have been corrupted! The Koran was ahead of its time. The Bible hadn't even been translated into Arabic by the time it was revealed and somehow it still beat modern scholarship by a slew of centuries.

 

Anyway, as for "brethren" in Deuteronomy having to refer to other Jews, somehow the author of that article bizarrely forgot that when the prophecy was issued it was still referring to an unknown future time in which no one could say what public relations towards anyone would possibly be. It was talking about a man from future conditions, not present ones. If anything it might have given them hope. According to Exodus all of israel was God's firstborn and according to Luke Adam was too. Aren't we all descended from him? Stick *that* in your inerrantist pipe and smoke it. Besides, it's awfully hard to take the "canonical" Gospels' word for it when it comes to fulfilling ancient prophecies when they fulfill so very many that, as far as we know, never existed in the first place. There's a whole list of them herehttp://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page7.htm--and yes, I know that apologists can have a veritable field day shoehorning in only vaguely similar Old Testament verses to make it look like they're the ones being referred to (since when does "from the root of Jesse a branch shall spring" sound anything like "he shall be called a Nazarene" just because one single word has a similar root?), but I never find it remotely convincing. Like I said, I'm under no obligation to find Muhammad (P) anywhere in there. You're in a very different boat.

Thirdly, no matter what you do you'll never escape from the fact that according to the Bible, Jesus (P) told his apostles that he'll come back before they'll make it through all of the towns of the country of israel. He said that "there are some standing here who will not taste of death" before they see him return. Even the "of that day or hour no one knows" verse which Christians like to tout as proof that the Second Coming's time is unknowable is completely out of context. What he says is, "This generation will not pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." You can know the generation, in other words, but nothing more specific than that. It's all here: http://www.gawaher.com/topic/740192-the-lowdown-on-gods-showdown/ People People have had two thousand years now in which to find ways to rationalize all of this (although I've yet to see any of them do a really good job: really, how could they? It’s irrefutable) but instead of going through all the mental gymnastics involved, how about you consider—just *consider*—that maybe you have an option. You could still believe in a religion that allows you to believe in God (swt), in the angels, in about twenty-five or thirty-five of the Bible's prophets, including John (P) and Zachariah (P), in a plethora of biblical stories (or versions of them, anyway, some pretty similar), in Gabriel, in the resurrection of the body, in Judgment Day, in Mary, in the virgin birth, in a number of the miracles of the Gospels, in the gathering of the apostles...I could go on. It's so close. The only difference I expect you to object to is the very thing whereof you have the least reason to do so, the belief that someone has to bleed and suffocate to death on a cross in order for our sins to be forgiven, whereas you know very well deep down inside that common sense dictates that forgiveness is every bit as simple as the statements, "Please forgive me," and, "I forgive you."

 

But you won’t consider it, will you?

 

I suppose that our job, like the job of The Prophet (P), was “only to deliver the manifest message”. And in my case fail horribly. Which is exactly what I’ve done. Toodle-oo. Perhaps I’ll find *something* productive on this board to do.

Edited by Yahya Sulaiman
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You know, maybe I did have the right idea when I decided to leave this forum for good the first time. Islamic message boards are supposed to be round table discussions for Muslims wherein we talk about religious issues between each other: funny thing--it seems that every time I join one, however, all of *my* time on these places ends up getting spent either explaining to Christians why Muslims aren't obligated to believe in their corrupted Bible or explaining to fully grown old atheists why it isn't nice to go comparing people's deeply cherished beliefs to flying spaghetti monsters. The internet is both the best and the worst thing that ever happened to this world. Coming back might have been a mistake after all, at least during these dark doldrums in my life: message boards are the pits. I mentioned I had reasons of my own for doing so and now said reasons have become moot on their own due to personal circumstances. Can any veterans here tell me if there's a place on this board that might interest me and which doesn't get hijacked by outsiders and subject to a lot of recycled bickering? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm desperate.

Edited by Yahya Sulaiman
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As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

 

You should stay Yahya Sulaiman. I have learned from your posts although I have researched Christianity myself. Remember that there are a lot of lurkers, Muslim and non-Muslim, so you never know whom you have helped by contributing. If this was purely a debate between one person and the other with nobody listening, then there would be no point in continuing. However, there are people who listen and read, and they might not read all the past threads. They like reading current threads. So recycled topics are not that bad.

 

Another thing you could do is start a thread with a topic you would like to do discuss.

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I understand that you have to insist that the Bible is corrupted, it is a default position of man. The Bible condemns all men, and does not require any special interpretations or divine revelation to understand it. It is also unforgiving in that it is always in conflict with religions that attempt to mix it's doctrines with their own, always leading to a conflict of texts where one side has to be chosen over the other.
Islam is unremarkably of no exception. Your text is incompatible with the Bible (see here) and therefore you must insist that the Bible is corrupted. For example:-

 

 

 
 It follows of necessity from the Muslim point of view indeed that the Christian scriptures must have been corrupted! The Koran was ahead of its time. The Bible hadn't even been translated into Arabic by the time it was revealed and somehow it still beat modern scholarship by a slew of centuries.

 

 

What you are also telling me here is that Mohammed would have been scriptually ignorant and not qualified to discern whether the entity that dictated the koran to him was speaking the truth or not! and this is so typical of what happens today, the general approach to spreading Islam is to tell a scriptually ignorant Christian that "We believe in Jesus" when quite blatantly the Jesus of the Koran and Jesus Christ of the Bible are 2 completely different people.

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Well why continue in this silly belief that Christians and Muslims worship the same God? you bring it on yourself!

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Well why continue in this silly belief that Christians and Muslims worship the same God? you bring it on yourself!

 

 

Salams dear Extreme

 

 

 

 

Practically as ground reality, Christians themselves don’t believe in bible

What remains as Christianity is only in the form of paganism

They just have only one concept namely "Jesus loves you :hug: "

They have thrown bible long back

Otherwise just tell me one thing, I mean one teaching of bible that is being widely

followed by Christians today

You people are not anywhere near Muslims.

io dont know why your arguing about bible being true on not

first tell your people to adopt bible as a way of life , then you can come to this debate .

where as for muslims quran is the way of life , it is all the way quran in daily life for us.

then where is question of comparision between quran and bible

 

Regards

 

Mushtaq

 

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You are indeed correct, in todays western societies there are very few people who actually believe in the authority of the Bible - worst of all even most Christians are also guilty of this! - but you'll notice that in tandem with this, western societies are also falling apart, and whilst Islam is becomming the fastest growing religion within this spiritual vaccum, it's not making society any better. 

 

But this is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God, it was the same for the Children of israel and it's the same for countries such as the UK and the US today, what remains though is the truth of the Bible - which actually documents the very processes that the western nations are currently going through! - the Koran does not do this, and due to restrictions here, I shan't comment further!

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