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The numbers invented or not are not of significance to me, But what is right an wrong is significant. Christians believe we have been set free. We are no longer slaves but free. We are free to do what is right. We are also free to do what is not right just like you are, but like you we are not free from the consequences of our wrong choices. Ishmael was born of the slave woman Hagar. Isaac was born of the free woman whom Jesus descended. We are free and not slave. Whom the son sets free is free indeed!

 

then plz don't repeat them again, they are offensive to Muslems.

 

Islam set every one free as well, spiritually as you try to show in christianity and also, practically as I mentioned before.

 

BTW, do bible or christians distinguish between the 12 sons of Jacob, since as far as I know, he have them from two free sisters and two slaves?!!

 

If not why keeping repeating that difference in Ismael case? 

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Don't repeat what or what is offensive? Did you mean slave? You said it not me.

The 12 sons of Jacob? No distinction has been made, but that is not the case with Hagar. Why? Because God said so!

 

I meant the false numbers, I know you are't the one who bring them up

 

writers said so......

to be racist against slaves could be understood but to be racist against salve for the sake of another seems to be strange some how. or that could be the act of the writers of the OT, as been said, "How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain" Jer 8:8

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 Reason and logic alone tell you that if the Scribes referred to by Jeremiah were writing the Bible, they wouldn't be telling you they are lying. That verse is about people falsely interpreting the Scriptures with their pens making them all lies. God judged them for it. God preserves His word. He states His word is established forever in heaven. He doesn't let some of it get perverted and preserve some of it. He protects it all!

first off, the verse is talking about the law of god not the interpretation of it, and second that's the words of a late prophet about the earlier scribes and these words are written by another new scribe, there is no conflect, the scribes don't condemn himself as you think.

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A few days ago someone asked me for sources - wikipedia has a good article about Arab slave trade, together with a detailed list of sources.

 

The author of this topic got a wrong (intentionally?) impression that Christianity is at least as friendly towards slavery as Islam. Wrong. Christianity merely recognizes that slavery does exist. There is no record of Jesus owning or trading slaves, that's why in the history of Europe slave trade has always been an anomaly rather than a norm (first European cities began abolishing slavery by 10th century)

 

Muhammad both owned and traded slaves (including captured women). That's why there could've never been an Islamic abolitionist movement - to question the right to own another person would be to question Muhammad's prophethood. 

 

I would bet that had it not been for western pressure, slavery would still exist in the entire Islamic world. In fact it still exists in places like Sudan and Mauritania.

 

If a Muslim murders one person they believe it is as if they killed all of humanity; 

Wrong. The verse you are referring to begins with "We told the children of israel". So it's target audience are Jews, not Muslims (ironically, this verse comes from Talmud, not from Torah yet still Quran refers to it as God's word).

 

The entire verse sound as follows:

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

 

Apologists (or rather deceivers) usually cherrypick a fragment of this verse and claim that "for Muslims all life is sacred".

 

The next verse is as follows:

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

 

This is the definition of "mischief" as mentioned in the previous verse. Therefore, the verse 5:32 has nothing to do with tolerance - it's in fact a warning for Jews to not mess up with Muslims (verse 7:103 of the Quran even indicates that merely rejecting Muhammad and the Quran counts as "mischief".)

 

Ironicallly, the verse 5:33 has been used as a justification for blasphemy laws.  Sura 5 as a whole is one of the most hateful and intolerant Suras of the entire Quran - and also one fo the two latest ones "revealed". Jews and Christians are explicitly cursed as ‘wicked’ people with ‘diseased hearts’ and as hateful ‘blasphemers’ respectively. Muhammad goes on to coyly remind his people that Allah loves those who “fight” in his service. 

Edited by Guan Yu

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To be honest, slavery still exists in Christian countries around the world right now. Just a few months ago, a major sex slave ring run by supposedly Christian people was toppled here in Richmond, Virginia. Sex trafficking takes place in many countries including all developed western countries and nothing is done about it.

 

(Btw, as a historian I will denounce your statement that Europeans were against slavery as early as the 10th Century. The European countries were the ones RUNNING the slave trade up through the 1860s.)

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A few days ago someone asked me for sources - wikipedia has a good article about Arab slave trade, together with a detailed list of sources.

 

I believe wikipedia is a great source of information, while it's not authentic. So do us a favor and get the source you like, and one more thing you should be able to tell us about, what was the other sources of the author of such book and what is his methodology of counting that number.

 

 

A

The author of this topic got a wrong (intentionally?) impression that Christianity is at least as friendly towards slavery as Islam. Wrong. Christianity merely recognizes that slavery does exist. There is no record of Jesus owning or trading slaves, that's why in the history of Europe slave trade has always been an anomaly rather than a norm (first European cities began abolishing slavery by 10th century)

 

it's will be better if you told us what did Jesus said or did to end up slavery, If he didn't have one slave doesn't mean he worked against it (he could be have a special conditions, lake of goods or lack of money)

second Muhammad, PBUH not only set free his "slave" Zaid Ibn Hareethah but also he helped him to marry one of the most honored Muslem woman. but that's a single case, the most important thing is to put the laws and basis to end it and Islam did that:

1- reducing the sources of slaves,

2- opening wide ways to set them free for example, many sins if the muslem did any he must set a slave to be free.....

3- urged the muslems to deal with them fairly "your slaves are your brothers Allah put them under your authority to test you......"

 

 

Muhammad both owned and traded slaves (including captured women). That's why there could've never been an Islamic abolitionist movement - to question the right to own another person would be to question Muhammad's prophethood. 

 

NO, at all. in many cases if the salve who have no other shelter or ways to gain life....if being set free he will be a danger for himself and the society. that's why ending slavery needed time to end it.

 

 

The entire verse sound as follows:

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

 

you should study Islamic Fiqh and Quran interpretation before getting into that. mainly every order/saying by Allah/old messenger to his people is still applicable for the Muslems Except if there is a change and there is no here. here are some other verses give the same meanings:

 

025.068  S: And they who do not call upon another god with Allah and do not slay the soul, which Allah has forbidden except in the requirements of justice, and (who) do not commit fornication and he who does this shall find a requital of sin;

025.069  S: The punishment shall be doubled to him on the day of resurrection, and he shall abide therein in abasement; 

 

in the hadeeth " be away of the 7 killers (cause god's punishment).....killing the innocent soul that Allah forbids......

 

 

The next verse is as follows:

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

 

I believe this verse is just a base in any sane nation' constitution in case of any external attack. I don't know if you accept that the USA did to defend it's land and people after the Japanese attack in 1942 or you have a different concept. BTW do you accept using the Atomic bombs over civilian or camping all the Japanese origin Americans or you have a different opinion..

 

while the general verse in Islam (also you should find it in your constitution) is:

 

060.008  S: Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.  

 

 

 

 

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