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the sad clown

A Troubling Verse

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Sad Clown, good to see you back here..hope everything is well with you and family ..been a while my friend..

 

Why does God's infinite nature make him want to punish people for all of eternity? If anything, you would think it would work the other way. I can do serious harm to finite beings, but God, I can't even lay a finger on him. And yet God is willing to forgive the actual harm I cause finiite beings, but cannot be appeased if I should do something as simple as dying while not believing in him. Why doesn't God's infinite nature make him more willing to forgive?

I understand it is an article of faith that God is perfectly just and good. But what could you do to deserve having your skin burned off of you for eternity? What could you do to deserve having your skin burned off of you even once?

 

SC, let’s say a bunch of criminals broke into your home, raped and killed your wife and your children, mutilated their bodies to hide their crimes etc. Now let me ask you, not the atheist in you but the deep sense of justice engraved deep within you, would you ever forgive these killers and rapists? If there is such a thing as hell, would these killers deserve nothing less than their skin burn off in it and for every single one of them to rot in hell? If there is such a thing as paradise, where even the lowliest dweller would get something like ten earths combined (hey what is ten earths for the One who Created hundreds of billions of galaxies?), would you ever consider it justice if any of those rapists and killer ended up in Paradise? How long do you think it would take for you to get over what happened? A lifetime? A million years? Would you ever accept 20-40 years in jail as justice for those killers? Our species committed some of the most horrendous and evillest deeds against our own, my example is just to describe and point out to you how our own deep sense of justice demands eternal punishment or how our own self appeals for the harshest punishments over certain crimes. Offer you thoughts on this and what are your answers to some of my questions and IA I’ll make my second point.

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Sad Clown, good to see you back here..hope everything is well with you and family ..been a while my friend..

Thank you for your warm welcome.

 

SC, let’s say a bunch of criminals broke into your home, raped and killed your wife and your children, mutilated their bodies to hide their crimes etc. Now let me ask you, not the atheist in you but the deep sense of justice engraved deep within you, would you ever forgive these killers and rapists? If there is such a thing as hell, would these killers deserve nothing less than their skin burn off in it and for every single one of them to rot in hell?

Would I forgive them? I don't know, it is doubtful. Would I want them burned alive repeatedly? Probably not. The problem with this example however, is that the verse in question doesn't say that such torment is exclusive to only the most heinous of crimes, but for people who's only "crime" is they disbelieve. I am an unbeliever. I have not raped, murdered, or mutilated.

 

If there is such a thing as paradise, where even the lowliest dweller would get something like ten earths combined (hey what is ten earths for the One who Created hundreds of billions of galaxies?), would you ever consider it justice if any of those rapists and killer ended up in Paradise? How long do you think it would take for you to get over what happened? A lifetime? A million years? Would you ever accept 20-40 years in jail as justice for those killers?

Perhaps I would wish them to be punished even the next life. But would I wish eternal torment? No. And I would eventually get over it, even if it did take a million years. But again, the two problems I have with it is that the punishment knows no limits and that it is not reserved for only the cruelest and inhumane people, but for disbelievers.

 

Our species committed some of the most horrendous and evillest deeds against our own, my example is just to describe and point out to you how our own deep sense of justice demands eternal punishment or how our own self appeals for the harshest punishments over certain crimes. Offer you thoughts on this and what are your answers to some of my questions and IA I’ll make my second point.

I do not demand eternal punishment, not for any crime. And certainly not for unbelief.

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There is only one god. He is the same god in all divine religions. He is the god of Buddhists, fire worshipers mice worshipers, pyramids worshipers, money worshipers, devil worshipers, atheists.. you name it. He is the author of all divine books. The reason we invite you and the rest of the world to Islam, is because we follow the only message from God that was not corrupted by man.

I understand that if Islam is correct, that the situation is as you described it. But others claim to be correct too, and with equally dire consequences for those who do not believe. For someone like me, who is on the outside, all of these appeals look the same.

 

Let's face it: God is the most merciful, and He is also the most severe in punishment. But you get to pick the side you prefer.

If you prefer to gamble, you'd be betting more than you can handle.

Any choice I make is a gamble. I gamble that Christians and other religions are wrong when I bet on Islam. I gamble that Islam and other religions are wrong when I bet on Christianity. I gamble as an atheist. There is no choice presently available to me that does not contain within it some form of imperilment with all of the other choices I necessarily reject in making it.

 

So, instead of making my choice by picking the religion with the cruelest threats, and so minimizing my gamble, I seek to make my choice based on my best understanding of what is true, irrespective of the threats that others breathe against me.

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An-Nisa 4:56 said:

 

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

 

This seems like such a horrific punishment that I found myself troubled reading it. Could anyone explain to me how disbelief merits having your skin constantly burnt off?

 

This seems like such a horrific punishment that I found myself troubled reading it. Could anyone explain to me how disbelief merits having your skin constantly burnt off?

 

hello Clown, I like to point out to some points,

 

1-the second life laws are different than the one we have now. i mean those guys in the hell will talk, eat, drink, think, remember, argue and dispute at such state. i believe that's strange according to the earthly laws as well. the main point here that the God's punishment is painful, disgraceful and shameful and just for the bad guys.

 

002.090
Y:
Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith.

 

2- Deterring with harsh punishment is a great mean to reduce the number of those who will be subjected to such punishment. i believe there is no human community can live without a crimes' identification and the proper punishment.

 

3- punishments are related to the authority power: you may notice this in the military. A sergeant, lieutenant,….general, all of them have different punishments to the same crime. Of course it goes up as the rank goes up, Why not god?!!

 

4- who have the right to define crimes and punishments: in my country whenever this people's council define a crime/punishment, it will be applied over me even if I don't like it. If there is a god in this world, doesn't he have this right. Yes he have the right no others have the right to oppose him, unless due to arrogance. Satan see that the one who is made out of fire should not bow down to the one who is made out of mud because of arrogance. he forgot that the one who is been made don't have the right to oppose the one who made/create him.

 

5- useless argues: I believe long argues about some thing like why the fire burns the skin?!! Or why a speedy train can crush the one who stand in its way?!! It's uses less compared to HOW CAN I AVOID SUCH PUNISHMENT? Or what does this god want me to do and why?

 

6- a scientific fact, miracle: although how painful such verse for some, I can see a great evidence of divine call here, , man, I believe, didn't know about until later. The human feeling sensors are in the skin.

 

7- I believe also, someone should not commit a crime to show up that he didn't like its punishment. I mean if there are enough evidences that god created us, revealed books to us, and send messengers to guide us to the happiness way in this life and the hereafter, I believe no one should say "BUT, he have a great punishments also, and so I won't obey him"

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I understand that if Islam is correct, that the situation is as you described it. But others claim to be correct too, and with equally dire consequences for those who do not believe. For someone like me, who is on the outside, all of these appeals look the same.

 

 

Any choice I make is a gamble. I gamble that Christians and other religions are wrong when I bet on Islam. I gamble that Islam and other religions are wrong when I bet on Christianity. I gamble as an atheist. There is no choice presently available to me that does not contain within it some form of imperilment with all of the other choices I necessarily reject in making it.

 

So, instead of making my choice by picking the religion with the cruelest threats, and so minimizing my gamble, I seek to make my choice based on my best understanding of what is true, irrespective of the threats that others breathe against me.

 

The Sad Clown I think your reasoning is perfectly valid. The issue of your concern must be addressed via the correct angle. I hope to put in my input soon to this matter and hope to hear your valid arguments.

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I am sorry friend Dot, but that is not the situation I face. I have the Christian God threatening me. The Islamic God threatening me. The Jewish God threatening me. I have Buddhists telling me there is no God, the Hindus telling me there are many gods. There is wrath and torment everywhere I turn. It is not a win-win situation, but a win-lose-lose-lose....

 

but to chose god, still a win-win situation for the main concept god/no god. while to chose which religion is the right, you have to use the mind to search, study and compare. may Allah guide all the truth seekers to the right path.

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1-the second life laws are different than the one we have now. i mean those guys in the hell will talk, eat, drink, think, remember, argue and dispute at such state. i believe that's strange according to the earthly laws as well. the main point here that the God's punishment is painful, disgraceful and shameful and just for the bad guys.

 

002.090
Y:
Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith.

But the bad guys have been declared "bad" simply because they do not believe. They did nothing terrible like what RAHIMI suggested.

 

2- Deterring with harsh punishment is a great mean to reduce the number of those who will be subjected to such punishment. i believe there is no human community can live without a crimes' identification and the proper punishment.

I have my doubts about this. There have been studies regarding strict laws (in the United States) that seem to demonstrate a lack of correlation between heavy penalties and deterrant effects. Nevertheless, even if such a correlation were proven, what is the "crime" you are deterring? Unbelief? And would harsh punishments deter if you didn't believe the punisher existed? You aren't afraid of Zeus' lightning bolts are you?

 

3- punishments are related to the authority power: you may notice this in the military. A sergeant, lieutenant,….general, all of them have different punishments to the same crime. Of course it goes up as the rank goes up, Why not god?!!

I thought the military was based on laws and regulations as well, although that is probably just my naivety. Even if it is not, I do not see a model that allows for more terrible punishments based on the rank of the person condemning you to be a just or fair system when compared to a system that has the same punishment for the same crime irrespective of who the victim or the accused are.

 

4- who have the right to define crimes and punishments: in my country whenever this people's council define a crime/punishment, it will be applied over me even if I don't like it. If there is a god in this world, doesn't he have this right. Yes he have the right no others have the right to oppose him, unless due to arrogance. Satan see that the one who is made out of fire should not bow down to the one who is made out of mud because of arrogance. he forgot that the one who is been made don't have the right to oppose the one who made/create him.

The Christians say the same thing. If I was a creator, and could make thinking and feeling creatures, I do not think it would be right of me to torment them. But it matters not what I think, for I have no power to oppose Allah or the gods of any other religion.

 

5- useless argues: I believe long argues about some thing like why the fire burns the skin?!! Or why a speedy train can crush the one who stand in its way?!! It's uses less compared to HOW CAN I AVOID SUCH PUNISHMENT? Or what does this god want me to do and why?

I do not believe it useless to inquire about truth and justice. As for how can I avoid such punishment, I cannot. If I avoid it by becoming a Muslim, I will be threatened by the Christian's God. If I avoid the Christian God's wrath, I am at the mercy of Allah. And what of the god of Judaism, a religion that does not recognize either Jesus or Muhammad? I am endangered no matter where I turn.

 

6- a scientific fact, miracle: although how painful such verse for some, I can see a great evidence of divine call here, , man, I believe, didn't know about until later. The human feeling sensors are in the skin.

Yes, pain sensors are in the skin, which makes it all the more terrible that Allah has promised that when their skin is destroyed and so they can feel no more pain, the unbelievers will be given new skin so as to once again be tormented by the flames.

 

7- I believe also, someone should not commit a crime to show up that he didn't like its punishment. I mean if there are enough evidences that god created us, revealed books to us, and send messengers to guide us to the happiness way in this life and the hereafter, I believe no one should say "BUT, he have a great punishments also, and so I won't obey him"

But the disbeliever is unconvinced by these things, for otherwise they would be a believer. I know that I am unable to see evidence that God created us, or the truth of the Qur'an or the messengers that have been sent. I do not reject God because of the punishment he offers, although it does seem like an especially cruel punishment, but because I have not been convinced by evidence.

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but to chose god, still a win-win situation for the main concept god/no god. while to chose which religion is the right, you have to use the mind to search, study and compare. may Allah guide all the truth seekers to the right path.

But that is not the choice given to me. There is no god/no god. There is Allah, the Christian's God, the Jewish God, Hindu God, etc...and no god. And again, if no choice is free from threats, then there is no way I can allow fear to govern my choice, because there will always be fear. Only truth can guide me correctly.

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The Sad Clown I think your reasoning is perfectly valid. The issue of your concern must be addressed via the correct angle. I hope to put in my input soon to this matter and hope to hear your valid arguments.

Thank you for your concern. I look forward to your post.

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[/indent]

But the bad guys have been declared "bad" simply because they do not believe. They did nothing terrible like what RAHIMI suggested.

 

i don't believe so as well, but they will be bad if they recognize the fact there is a god and denied his right to be obeyed.

 

 

I have my doubts about this. There have been studies regarding strict laws (in the United States) that seem to demonstrate a lack of correlation between heavy penalties and deterrant effects. Nevertheless, even if such a correlation were proven, what is the "crime" you are deterring? Unbelief?

 

i believe some countries are studying the re-applying of more strict (the death penalty again) for some crimes to re-reduce its numbers.

i believe also, they will, and you will agree, shot down the one who will get near a military unit or a nuclear station even if some don't like that.

 

And would harsh punishments deter if you didn't believe the punisher existed? You aren't afraid of Zeus' lightning bolts are you?

if Zeus show me evidences, i'll

 

I thought the military was based on laws and regulations as well, although that is probably just my naivety. Even if it is not, I do not see a model that allows for more terrible punishments based on the rank of the person condemning you to be a just or fair system when compared to a system that has the same punishment for the same crime irrespective of who the victim or the accused are.

 

our military have this and i believe it's universal law. practically they find it better

 

 

The Christians say the same thing.

 

any one can say what ever he likes, and again it's about evidences

 

If I was a creator, and could make thinking and feeling creatures, I do not think it would be right of me to torment them. But it matters not what I think, for I have no power to oppose Allah or the gods of any other religion.

 

then you think you should chose the god who have the most light punishment or the one who have no punishments at all.

 

 

I do not believe it useless to inquire about truth and justice. As for how can I avoid such punishment, I cannot. If I avoid it by becoming a Muslim, I will be threatened by the Christian's God. If I avoid the Christian God's wrath, I am at the mercy of Allah. And what of the god of Judaism, a religion that does not recognize either Jesus or Muhammad? I am endangered no matter where I turn.

 

again about evidences

 

 

Yes, pain sensors are in the skin, which makes it all the more terrible that Allah has promised that when their skin is destroyed and so they can feel no more pain, the unbelievers will be given new skin so as to once again be tormented by the flames.

 

here is one evidence, i hope you will make sure of it instead of ignoring it. what if that was the first time for some one to indicate such scientific fact!! is that could be by chance or a real god is talking to you??

 

 

But the disbeliever is unconvinced by these things, for otherwise they would be a believer. I know that I am unable to see evidence that God created us, or the truth of the Qur'an or the messengers that have been sent. I do not reject God because of the punishment he offers, although it does seem like an especially cruel punishment, but because I have not been convinced by evidence.

 

that's great, it's evidences again. i hope you will keep seeking about evidences and i hope we can help in that.

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But that is not the choice given to me. There is no god/no god. There is Allah, the Christian's God, the Jewish God, Hindu God, etc...and no god. And again, if no choice is free from threats, then there is no way I can allow fear to govern my choice, because there will always be fear. Only truth can guide me correctly.

 

i believe, supposidly, the first question for any mind, am i here by chance [some chimecals in a mudy enveroment and the life bagan ], or there is a powerful, all-knowing omni-potent creator did all of that? ....... then the second will be who is he?

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i don't believe so as well, but they will be bad if they recognize the fact there is a god and denied his right to be obeyed.

But that is rebellion, not disbelief. I cannot rebel against the unknown king.

 

i believe some countries are studying the re-applying of more strict (the death penalty again) for some crimes to re-reduce its numbers.

i believe also, they will, and you will agree, shot down the one who will get near a military unit or a nuclear station even if some don't like that.

Again, I do not know how effective these measures are, and I have heard that there is not the necessary correlation between harsh punishments and deterrence to justify it. It is an interesting matter, but not really pertinent to the question, since the punishment in question is being levied for crimes of thought, and not heinous acts that violate with violence.

 

if Zeus show me evidences, i'll

So then you are not afraid of Zeus, no matter how dire the described threats of him are, because you do not believe in him. And you do not believe because you have no evidence of his truth. I am in the same situation.

 

our military have this and i believe it's universal law. practically they find it better

Which military are you speaking of? I know of no universal law.

 

any one can say what ever he likes, and again it's about evidences

I agree with this.

 

then you think you should chose the god who have the most light punishment or the one who have no punishments at all.

No, if I were to choose a god, it would be a god who is true.

 

again about evidences

I agree. But what does one do when the evidences seem to equally convincing (or unconvincing)?

 

here is one evidence, i hope you will make sure of it instead of ignoring it. what if that was the first time for some one to indicate such scientific fact!! is that could be by chance or a real god is talking to you??

I am fairly certain people already knew it was painful to have your skin burned.

 

i believe, supposidly, the first question for any mind, am i here by chance [some chimecals in a mudy enveroment and the life bagan ], or there is a powerful, all-knowing omni-potent creator did all of that? ....... then the second will be who is he?

The second question only applies if I answer the first question as a theist. But I am not a theist. I do not believe in God. I generally subscribe to evolution and abiogenesis, although I am open to other naturalistic explanations regarding the origins of life.

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Which military are you speaking of? I know of no universal law.

 

Egypt. what i meant is if a soleidger "show laziness in training or came late to a formation or missed a formation or talk in bad way,..." then the punishment will be specified according the power of the leader who judge that case

A sergeant,... have the right to give him up to 3 extra formations

lieutenant,…...........................................................10 ..........................

---------

platoon commander...............................................5 days in jail

-----

general, ..................................................................30 days in jail

 

i believe that concept is a universal one, i can't imagine when the army leader attend one of his companies' trainnings and a soleidger attended late, the 4 stars general give him the same punishment as if a sergeant who was the leader will tell him don't do it again.

 

I am fairly certain people already knew it was painful to have your skin burned.

 

i believe also there were many probable alternatives for "skin" in this time/culture, for example "flesh, meat, muscles, tissues, ....". if i were to choose a word i think i would chose "flesh", it seems more painful since flesh is more thicker than the less than 0.1 inch "skin".

 

any way, i don't expect any one to say, yes that's a clear evidence, on the other hand not to say it's normal or easy. but this is very scientific description and it gives a good credit (or at least good luck) to Quran, although it may not reach a clear evidence of a divine interaction.

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Egypt. what i meant is if a soleidger "show laziness in training or came late to a formation or missed a formation or talk in bad way,..." then the punishment will be specified according the power of the leader who judge that case

 

i believe that concept is a universal one, i can't imagine when the army leader attend one of his companies' trainnings and a soleidger attended late, the 4 stars general give him the same punishment as if a sergeant who was the leader will tell him don't do it again.

I still do not know if this is true or not. I will take your word that it is as you say it is for the Egyptian military.

 

i believe also there were many probable alternatives for "skin" in this time/culture, for example "flesh, meat, muscles, tissues, ....". if i were to choose a word i think i would chose "flesh", it seems more painful since flesh is more thicker than the less than 0.1 inch "skin".

And yet I still think people understood that the surface layer of the human body was particularly attuned to pain. It is too easy to adduce this for me to believe that they were unaware.

 

any way, i don't expect any one to say, yes that's a clear evidence, on the other hand not to say it's normal or easy. but this is very scientific description and it gives a good credit (or at least good luck) to Quran, although it may not reach a clear evidence of a divine interaction.

I'm not sure I am seeing the very scientific description you are mentioning. Sorry.

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Because this life for Muslims is just a test. It is not for eternity. We will all die eventually. Since the beginning of time God has been guiding us and even when we forgot the right way he sent messengers again and again. If He wanted to He could have just sent one prophet but he didn't. He knows that on the day of Judgement people cannot say to Him that they were not guided because the guidance was there and they did not accept it. How could God who is Just give the same end for the believers and the disbelievers? How can someone who prayed 5 times a day get the same end as someone who cursed God all their life? Where is the justice in that? If this were the case then we all wouldn't need to believe in God if we thought we are going to heaven anyway.

 

Therefore do I warn you of a Fire blazing fiercely;None shall reach it but those most unfortunate ones, Who give the lie to Truth and turn their backs.But those most devoted to Allah shall be removed far from it.

(Surah 92: 14-17)

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aSalaamualikom

 

As one can see from glancing over the replies in this thread that people are having problem trying to answer this question. Quiet understandable actually.

 

However, I wanted a bit of clarification before I could even begin to try and tackle this question (whether I could provide an answer that is satisfactory is another matter all together).

 

Is your question about why God does this i.e His motive,

 

OR

 

whether or not it is Just?

 

w/salaam

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:wa:

 

I don't think people are having problem with the question. People are having problem with the arrogant attitude of atheist.

Edited by Saracen21stC

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aSalamualikom

 

Brother I don't think the questioner is, as far as I can see at least, being arrogant about it. One can understand this, people view God from whatever they have heard around them. They may not believe in God but they have a set of properties that they would generally think of God as having which stem from their own sphere of influence. The New-Testament view of God is much prevalent and one often sees people referring to that standard when judging any religion. That is why we normally see atheists from the west having a Christian centric view of God and their general criticism in based on it. This is why we generally hear the argument that if there was a God then why there is so much suffering in the world. This criticism of religion is, obviously based on a particular view of God.

 

If a person who was accustomed to the Old-Testament view of God, they would have little problem with this verse as far as I understand.

 

For a Muslim it is a given and very easy to understand as we are accustomed to this view. Many are not, and that is why they may find it a bit troubling. It takes time to understand and get used to change.

 

So long as a person is being respectful and honest in their inquiry, one should give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe if we are patient and understanding, Maybe Allah will guide them through us. Would we not want the other person to be patient with us if the roles were reversed?

 

And Allah knows best.

 

w/salaam

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aSalamualikom

 

 

Ibn al Qayyim is said have had an inclination towards the view that hellfire may not be eternal. See this link for further detail. Now whether or not he actually believed this or not is another matter, but it is just to show that it is a topic is not simple, (sometimes) even for people of knowledge.

 

w/salaam

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^ I never said he is arrogant just because he asked the question. Creating arguments for not submitting to the Creator itself is arrogance. I also agree with you that Western atheists generally have such understanding of God. But this can not justify disbelief in the Creator when they (atheist) are so busy using resources from this World. If they are really so honest and/or rational, they would not even touch a resource from the Earth as long as it does not become clear whether there is really Creator or not.

 

And, for your last post, ijma of scholars is that hellfire will be eternal for non-Muslims.

Edited by Saracen21stC

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Having said this, I want to clarify that I am with patience. I mean I encourage people/members to patiently put forward their comments/arguments.

Edited by Saracen21stC

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Um, I think the term being confused here is 'disbelief' and what it means in this context. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than myself can explain? Younes? lol

 

Also, in terms of disbelief in general, some say there are different levels. A good disbeliever would not be receiving the same punishment as a disbeliever who has led a criminal life. (I have to look for references for this, will let you know once I find it).

 

I've thought about these types of questions before, but decided I would rather focus on the positivity (do x and hope for Paradise) as opposed to the negativity (do x, go to Hell, do y, go to Hell, etc.). If I accept Hell as a reality, that means I also have to accept Paradise as a reality. If I believe what God says, then I have to believe HIs word that He is the most Merciful as well as fair. Also, sometimes people tend to fall into the 2 extremes, either despairing in the Mercy of God, or being a little too hopeful that their actions will not be held accountable.

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This seems like such a horrific punishment that I found myself troubled reading it. Could anyone explain to me how disbelief merits having your skin constantly burnt off?

 

Is someone who pursues the pleasure of Allah the same as someone who incurs displeasure from Allah

and whose refuge is Hell? What an evil destination (Al'Imran 162)

 

So pursue the pleasure of Allaah and prevent someone from incuring the displeasure of Allaah. It is no big deal if you do believe!

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