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Ashir

A Few Things I Have Against Islam

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Haven't interviewed any, but being of the female gender and was once a nine year old.. Not that long ago that I can't remember the stuff and things most uppermost in my mind.. :) marriage to an older man was never part of my childhood hopes and dreams. I would certainly say with confidence that I would not wish that on any nine year old daughter of mine either.

 

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that Mohammed married Aisha at six or nine or whatever! she may well have been blissfully happy with the situation. However that was then this is now. The majority of people .. Even some muslims maybe.. Do not find the practice acceptable in today's world.

 

This is my personal take on things if you think it's ok to marry a child well that's up to you.

 

 

today is not ok but it was ok during those days. 

 

it is like it was ok to travel with camel to different countries, but not now.

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PropellerAds

Muslims still model Muhammad's child marriage in many places, You are saying it is not okay to model Muhammad's marriage paradigm for today?

If yes, then Muslims are not united on how they view Muhammad. Everything about Jesus can be modeled today, yesterday and forever, because it is written "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" Paul said he wants to see Christ formed in us, and for us to be conformed to the image of God's son. Praise Jesus; He is I am, and I am because He is!

 

it is not Muhammed's model, it was something normal all over the world, even you ancient fathers married young girls in europe soon after their first menstruation according to european history of marriage in the middle ages.

 

 

 

Everything about Jesus can be modeled today, yesterday and forever, because it is written "

 

not true, dont lie us and yourself man

 

 

Matthew 5:27-3

 27 "You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body  be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole  body go into hell.  31 "It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'  32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.  

 

as we can see you are able to write and have eyes, so you have probably seen women with lust, and you have not followed this advice from Jesus.

 

you need to study you bible a lot more if you are going into discussion here, beacuse you can easy fall in a trap. 

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So if it's not acceptable by the standards of today's muslims is anyone doing anything to stop the practice? How many twelve year old have to suffer injuries, sometimes life changing by either intercourse or any resulting pregnancy? I say twelve could be younger could be older.. Let's take it as a hypothetical average..

 

this practice is probably practiced in backward muslim society today, beacuse today, girls need education, not marriage in that age, so if you marry so young girls while you have other older women, then something is problem with you now. That muhammed married Aisha was beacuse God ordered him to marry her, and later on we know why, beacuse she would become most knowledgable muslim that even frieand of muhammed ask question about Islam from her. she was smart. she transmitted so much valiable information from prophet.

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Hi all

 

My view is pretty simple.  It was never right to keep slaves, people in ages past were unaware of that fact and so they did it but it wasn’t right even when the law allowed it.  Marrying very young girls off to old men was never right even if those who practiced this were unaware that fact.  It is wrong today and it was wrong historically today we are just more aware of that.  That’s a hopeful sign that our morality is improving, that we are stepping away from the ancient superstitions into a more realistic moral framework.  That’s a good thing in my humble opinion.

 

I have three daughters, two are now teenagers and one was in a play recently at school.  She played the part of a somewhat sycophantic girl following around one of the guy’s in the play who was her boss.  She had to fawn over him and say complimentary things about him and when I asked her she explained that he was, despite his on stage character, a really nice guy.  I asked her if she was interested in him and she said, “Ewww he’s too old”.  He was only three years older than her.  That’s a normal reaction, young girls don’t want old men, they are not interested in them at all.  At six no girl would really understand sexual attraction; she may see the man as a father figure at best but that’s all.  What does that make any sex between them, she is having sex with a man who she may, at best, consider a father figure. I doubt young girls were ever different, they would never want an old man even though they’ve been married off to them throughout history.

 

Like slavery this practice is wrong today, it was wrong then regardless of the fact that society may have accepted it back then.

 

Any system which tries to prevent us from improving our moral code is wrong, is holding us back from making this word a better place.

 

Russell

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Yes, it is his example that Muslims follow today even though the world frowns on child marriage

 

Look at this video

http://youtu.be/F13gtjjDEgE

I rest my case

 

I haven't lied to you man. Jesus was speaking figuratively, but even if He wasn't you are better off going to heaven lame than hell with your whole body. No one is in heaven lame. You don't understand Scriptures.

Besides this has nothing to do with the actions one models for you. Jesus didn't pluck out His eye. Get real man and don't you lie to us.

peace

 

 

yeah sure :D

 

and by the way how can you figuratively plock out your eye????'

 

 

 

 Jesus didn't pluck out His eye.

 

can you expect that one of the greatest prophets in Human history make such stupid sins like watching naked women and get horney....come on dont be ridicolous :glare:

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That’s a normal reaction, young girls don’t want old men, they are not interested in them at all.  

 

Using personal anecdotes to generalize things?

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By the way, Aisha married the Prophet when she was nine and had reached puberty.

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Sadly, I was reading recently of a nine year old girl who recently died from a uterine rupture which she received on her wedding night. I don't remember her name but it was on yahoo.com.

 

Peace be with you.

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Sadly, I was reading recently of a nine year old girl who recently died from a uterine rupture which she received on her wedding night. I don't remember her name but it was on yahoo.com.

 

Peace be with you.

 

i have never seen any hadith were it say that Muhammed and Aisha had sex at 9 years of age. 

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Hi Younes

 

An example from my personal life yes, certainly I’ve never heard of a young girl who was actually attracted to an older man in anything other than a fatherly way.  What does that make sex between them, between a young girl and a man she sees as a father figure?

 

You’ll have to prove to me that a 9 year old, in that day and age, had reached puberty, puberty happens later than this today normally and the age of it is falling due to our better nutrition and possibly due to hormones added to our food during production so the age of puberty was significantly older back then than it is today.  This claim is very unlikely I’d have to suggest.

 

Russell

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All the narrations are consistent in revealing that she was 6 years old when she got married and 9 when her marriage was consummated. A couple of these narrations are cited below:

 

Urwah reported, “The Prophet (pbuh) married Aisha RA when she was six years of age and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine. She stayed with him for nine years [until he passed away].” [bukhari 5158]

 

Aisha RA reported, “The Prophet (pbuh) married me when I was six years old... the women of the Anṣār then handed me over to the Prophet (pbuh). I was nine years of age that day.” [bukhari 3894]

 

Regarding this matter Hafiz Ibn Kathīr [d. 774 AH] has stated, “ʿUrwah’s statement of, ‘The Prophet (pbuh) married Aisha RA when she was six years of age and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine.”; [is something in which] there is no difference of opinion among people.” [al-Bidayah wa-al-Nihayah p.104 vol.3 Dar al Kotob al Ilmiyah, Beirut Lebanon 1997]

 

I don't know much about ahadith as to what is considered reliable etc. this from askaquestion. Hadithof the day.com

 

The term consummated does mean sex took place.

 

not it does not.

 

when she was 9 she moved to his house, so she started a life together with Muhammed in the same room, before she was 9 years old, she lived with her parents.

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Hi Andalusi

 

In fact that is exactly what the term means in English.  If these authors meant something else they have chosen the wrong word for it.

 

con•sum•mate

con•sum•mat•ing, adjective

verb (used with object)

- to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.

 

Russell

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Hi Younes

 

An example from my personal life yes, certainly I’ve never heard of a young girl who was actually attracted to an older man in anything other than a fatherly way.  What does that make sex between them, between a young girl and a man she sees as a father figure?

 

You’ll have to prove to me that a 9 year old, in that day and age, had reached puberty, puberty happens later than this today normally and the age of it is falling due to our better nutrition and possibly due to hormones added to our food during production so the age of puberty was significantly older back then than it is today.  This claim is very unlikely I’d have to suggest.

 

Russell

 

Well, because you have never heard of something, it can't be true, right? Who says that a young girl that has intercourse with an older man sees her as a father figure? 

 

It's quite obvious you're not scientific-minded. The fact is the most important factor when it comes to puberty is genetics. That's just a fact. If you want to claim that there is absolutely no way a girl in that time period could have attained puberty, then that says a lot about you. Go ask a specialist if he will co-sign your statement and see what he thinks. By the way, who are you to say Aisha did not have good nutrition? She came from a wealthy family. But probably according to you, nobody in history could have had good nutrition and attained puberty earlier than average.

 

Muslim historians have recorded young women as young as nine or ten giving birth. Granted they lived two-hundreds years after the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, but they lived in close proximity to that time period. Now, you might claimed they are biased, lying or something like that, and I won't bother to refute you. The fact of the matter is there is no observable proof, i.e. the people of that time period have died. 

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I am starting to find this topic boring so I am out.

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Here:

 

http://www.understanding-Islam.com/q-and-a/sources-of-Islam/what-was-ayesha-s-ra-age-at-the-time-of-her-marriage-to-the-prophet-pbuh-5107

 

Argue amongst yourselves. I've just challenged a long-held tradition on the one hand, and one of the Islamophobe's favorite ad hominem attacks on the other, and now I fear everyone on both sides is going to spend the rest of the thread ganging up on me if I stay: I've no interest at all in subjecting myself to the flood of circular arguments, appeals to tradition, appeals to majority, and endless repetitions of the same few straw men, which are probably now on the way. The evidence is there: I can't force you to agree with it. Ciao.

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Hi All

 

I disagree that everything is OK because the information we have today does not show Aisha had any problems with the arrangements.  One of the defences paedophiles use today is that the children were willing participants but that does not hold water, paedophiles groom children to take part in their sexual games and so the children do indeed take part willingly but the point is they would not agree if they weren’t groomed ahead of time, if they weren’t conditioned to be willing.  Maybe Aisha’s grooming was not of the same form but it sounds as if she was indeed taught to accept this state of affairs even if she might not have if she were given all the facts and the freedom she needed to make up her own mind on the matter.  At 6 she was not old enough to understand what marriage was about, not today, not back then so she could not rationally consent even if she could be trained to say yes.

 

How many six year old boys were married off to older women or is this another area of sexist treatment of females treating them more as commodities than as people?

 

Russell

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Hi Mair

 

The information we have on Aisha is so far removed that we can’t really know if any of it is true but if you take it at face value, from what I’ve been told here, he only lived till she was around 18 so it wasn’t a very long time.  She was just becoming an adult by the time their marriage ended.  That was, incidentally, one of the arguments given here for why she had to marry him at such a young age.  If she hadn’t he’d have died before she could create all the words attributed to her.  Of course that ignores the fact that an all-powerful god was supposed to be behind all this and being all powerful he could have had her born a bit earlier so she wouldn’t have been a child when she married so as not to set that terrible and immoral precedent.

 

Now I love my daughters like crazy but none of them is my intellectual equal and I can’t imagine anyone their age ever being a mental match for me because they have so little live experience.  What could an old man possibly see in a young girl of 6?  His other wives at the time were apparently an older widow who it sounds like he married as a charity case and his first wife who was around his age.  Aisha was young, unblemished, sexy!  I can imagine why she might have been his favourite.

 

What choice did she have?  It’s a good question, where does a 10 year old divorcee go?  What can she then do with her life?

 

I see the way they will marry a very young girl off to an older man but not the other way round as another clear example of the opinion they held of women and girls.  They are not treated as equals or we’d see women marrying four men as well and we’d see old women marrying very young boys but its all one way and that’s sexist yet again.  Incidentally I believe it is wrong to marry anyone young off to someone old, let them make that choice themselves once they’ve reached adulthood and can really think about what they are getting into.

 

Russell

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Greetings Redeemed and Mair

 

You have probably missed reading this announcement: Attention Non Muslims

And please read forum rule #20

 

Please note that questioning our rules is in itself a violation. You will not be issued a warning, unless you insist on discussing this further.

 

[at]Mair

You can ask all you want regarding Islam. We will help you as much we can to clear your doubts.

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Dot, does the same apply to other religions or only Islam? After all the stickied Refruting Christians thread could be viewed in the same light.

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Dot, does the same apply to other religions or only Islam?.

 

Only Islam. As the name implies, the Islamic forum is 100% biased toward Islam. Anyone can refute any religion, except Islam. You have the rest of the web to do so.

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Then is it permitted to discuss the the Topics where those of other faiths differ from Islam ie the trinity theology and the incarnation in Christianity even if such is specifically denied in Islam? Notice I'm not condemning Islam just explaining Christian theology though it is different than Islam it's the Christian view so that there is no misconceptions.

 

Peace be with you.

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Hi Mair

 

I think marrying anyone off to someone is wrong no matter what their ages are.  Marriage should be a personal choice it should never be imposed in my humble opinion.  Yes it’s really sad that these practices still exist, sadder still that anyone would attempt to defend them for a claimed moral guide from the past.  I believe that it was always wrong just like slavery, it was wrong for all of human history and those who practiced it once upon a time even when such things were accepted in their societies was wrong.  It’s irrelevant if those around them thought it was OK.

 

Russell

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