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Ashir

A Few Things I Have Against Islam

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Homophobia.

Sexism against women.

These can be found in both the Qu'ran and Islamic culture (IE Sharia and other Islamic laws)

Muhammad marrying a 6 year old? Or was it a 9 year old? Something like that.

Muhammad keeping slaves.

The fact that non-belief is the only non-forgivable crime, so you can change the world for the better yet you'll still go to hell, and that murder and rape can be forgiven but not unbelief.

Branding Allah 'All merciful' despite that I and most other atheists would be far, far, far more merciful.

Contradictions IE an all-knowing God testing others. Why would you test what you already know will be the outcome?

 

 

Why are these morally acceptable?

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Bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim

 

A common allegation is often made about the marriage of the prophet and Aisha at a young age and he is commonly accused because of it.

But I want to ask a question. What’s the problem of marrying a 9 year old? You would say she is too young but how young? Who decides the minimum age or the requirements for the marriage. For example in many European countries the minimum age is 18 and 16 if permitted by the parents other for example new Hampshire state in the US has minimum age of 13 by parental permission. Thirteen years old is immoral in most European countries yet, it’s not in New Hampshire

I quote from Wikipedia: “The American colonies followed the English tradition, and the law was more of a guide. For example, Mary Hathaway (Virginia, 1689) was only 9 when she was married to William Williams. Sir Edward Coke (England, 17th century) made it clear that "the marriage of girls under 12 was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband's estate was 9 even though her husband be only four years old.”

So if certain actions are moral in a certain time and place and it’s not in other, so who decides what’s what.

If a woman reaches puberty age (which is common at age of 9-10 in very hot climates) and she is ready spiritually and mentally to be a wife then why not.

Quraish, which was the tribe from which the prophet came from and his number one enemy, yet, never came up with this accusation against him. Because at age of 9 she was a grown up woman biologically and mentally who is ready to be a wife which was very common back then (they even had army leaders at 16 in major wars). Even centuries after Muhammad, no one came up with such accusation except in the modern age. Because now pedophilia is a raising issue and every day western people travel to Asia or read the news they see stories of children getting raped and killed, so they automatically refer anything to pedophilia and they are trying to stay away from it by raising the marriage age and so on. But you can’t accuse past ages (Muslims and non-Muslims) for such things. Even at Europe It was completely moral until only 150-200 years.

As for Muhammad keeping slaves, well, depends on your definition of slavery. They were even more like servants not slaves. Before the messenger of Allah become messenger of Allah (before revelation) he was gifted a slave called Zayd. Zayd was the son of another tribe leader and was captured in war and sold to a man who gifted him to Muhammad. The prophet treated him very well that the slave’s father was searching for him and when he found him, he offered the prophet to buy his son from him but the prophet refused and said we let him choose between us, if he chooses me then so be it and if he chooses you then he is free and yours. so the father said that’s an easy one so prophet asked Zayd if he would stay with him or set free and go with his father and (shockingly for his father) he choose to stay slave with the prophet rather than going home with his father the tribe leader (Muhammad back then was not a messenger yet and he was poor so Zayd had no and religious or material temptation). Other servant who volunteered to serve the prophet said he even never ever told me about anything why did you do it? Islam is also encouraging to set slaves free and it’s even one of the greatest things to do in Islam. The only expiation for certain bad deeds in Islam is to set free a certain number of slaves. The prophet himself was always buying slaves and setting them free (a huge deed in Islam).

As for the contradiction between the “all-knowing” of Allah with testing us that’s because Allah is the just. he could punish and reward directly without testing but then one could object that’s not fair to be punished for something he was going to commit but didn’t and the same for reward. It won’t be justice.

As for the other points, I don’t have time to answer them now as I have exams and maybe later

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I am surprised at you Augustine. You should know already that marriage as we know it today was not always about sexuality but also about security. On the other hand if we really want to go down this route did not Augustine participate in some very lewd acts at one point including homosexuality?

 

Now I know better than to go further into that because I know that he was still non Christian at this point and the details of that when taken in context make more sense

 

With that said let me say this, who knows better us or the person involved? Do you even know how we know about the accounts of the marriage of Aisha to the prophet? through Aisha! She was the writer of the hadeeths on this subject matter. You do also realize that no marriage in Islam is valid without the consent of both parties?

 

First I suggest that you research the matter from the side of the Islamic view

 

Now I realize that the sight is not popular among non-Muslims and many Muslims are also not fond of it but if you can sift through the commentary there are some good resources through this site: http://www.answering...y.com/aisha.htm

 

as to the servant comment if you really knew Islam like you should before making such commentary you would know that all the servants had to do was but ask for their freedom and it HAD to be granted.

Edited by abdullahfath

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Woah, big responses there. I will respond whenever I have enough time.

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Augustine, forgive me but with all due respect, I don't see your condemnation of the Catholic church which upheld slavery for centuries. As Jesus (pbuh) said, first you should remove the plank in your own eye before you remove the speck of sawdust in your brother's (according to Matthew 7:3 in the Bible). Likewise, slavery existed in those times everywhere.

 

As for the age of consent, that was until the Victorian age much lower than it is today. Go back and read Edwardian history in Europe. The average age of a bride in those times: 10. The average age of the groom: in their 20s.

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So what you're trying to say then is that your idea of proper age is better than that of God?

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BTW – I’m still waiting for you to provide evidence of Aisha’s consent to marry Mohammed please.

 

Complete marriage in Islam can not take place without both of their consent. That's what the majority of scholars believe. Also, You can ask this type of questions relating to many many other couples of past. The most important thing here is that the Majority of the Muslims throughout ages have passed narrations showing tremendous love between the Prophet :s: and Ayesha ®

 

http://www.gawaher.com/topic/738897-the-romantic-prophet-–-how-to-be-romantic-with-your-spouse/

 

It is obligatory for Muslims to believe that they were great lovers for each other as the narrations show.

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Could it be rather Aisha’s parents that gave consent to marry as per the Arab’s custom back them and in some areas now?

 

God bless,

 

In English, it is more suitable to call that betrothal. Guardians approval/consent is generally necessary in Islam for legal marriage to happen (irrespective of bride's age). But consent is must for cohabitation.

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Mohammed is supposed to be the greatest and seal of all the prophets, so his teachings whether by word or action are meant to be a lesson for all people at all times.

 

It is very highly unlikely that a 9 year girl could get pregnant, so the message from this marriage with Aisha is he did not get married this early to have children nice and early but to enjoy carnal delights. I fail to see how a man over 50 years old could fall in love with a 9 year old girl still playing with her dolls?

 

Does owning slaves or “servants” as you call them give the message that all people have the right to be respected according to their human dignity?

 

God bless,

 Attacking the personal profile of the prophet pbuh

None muslims atheists cooperating with Christians (not all but only the dirty ones) point their fingers and accuse Prophet Muhammad pbuh because of his marriage to Aisha may Allah be pleased with her who reached her puberty at the age of 9 years, she was the only young virgin among his wives after his marriage to the old lady Sawdah may Allah be pleased with her for 4 years( to comfort her after losing her husband) and that was also after the death of his first wife Khadijah may Allah be pleased with her who was 15 years older than the prophet pbuh!

So the first wife was already 15 years older than the prophet pbuh and she was his only wife for around 20 years after her death his second wife was old lady unattractive and she was his only wife for the next 4 years and then he married Aisha may Allah be pleased with her and for the girls living in the Arabian peninsula it was normal to get marriage early as they mature early

It is very clear to anyone (except the hatful blind disbelievers) that if the prophet pbuh was only after his pleasure he will not marry only one young virgin but many young virgins as every women among the Arabs wished to have him as husband!

These hatful Christians don’t read their corrupted bible before attacking prohet Muhammad pbuh!

According to their corrupted bible (which we don’t accept) Jesus commanded raping innocent female children, notice not even marriage!

Moses(PBUH) tells his army the command of God to do genocide, to kill women& children with the exception of the little virgin girls to keep for themselves out of which God himself take 32 girls!!!!,

Numbers 31:7-10 "And they warred against the Midianites, just as the LORD commanded Moses, and they killed all the males. They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of those who were killed ... And the children of israel took the women of Midian captive, with their little ones, and took as spoil all their cattle, all their flocks, and all their goods. They also burned with fire all the cities where they dwelt, and all their forts. (31:15-18) And Moses said to them: “Have you kept all the women alive?  Look, these women caused the children of israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.( 31:35) and thirty-two thousand persons in all, of women who had not known a man intimately.(31:40) The persons were sixteen thousand, of which the LORD’s tribute was thirty-two persons"

These Christians of course will not demolish Moses pbuh or David as a man of God (the forefather of their God Jesus!) because of thier marriage profile!

For Prophet Muhammad pbuh his marriage to one young virgin woman is a crime and this means he is not a man of God to these Christians but Moses pbuh involved in raping thousands of female children and David pbuh having 1000 young virgin is quite normal and they remain in Christian believe faithful men of God!!!!!!!!!!

In brief, these hatful Christians don’t have problem with the personal profile of prophet Muhammad pbuh! Their real problem is his message and not his personal profile!

Their real problem that he destroyed their polytheism their trinity and men worship and called them to worship the Creator of Heavens and earth alone!

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Assalamualaikum.

 

I am answering the initial Question. 

 

I realized that conversing with an atheist is a bit different, than to a Christian. I do not know why the Christians are so happy about the atheist, they do not believe in what you believe either. In fact about 82% of atheist came from countries of a Christian environment. As people of religion this is something to be ashamed of don't you think. Moving on it takes a different type of speech style to talk to an atheist because they do not believe in religion. There is no point on answering them with quotes from the Quran or the hadith mainly because they do not believe in it. What they do believe is in logic. Many Muslims fail to realize that the Quran is filled of logical facts. Most of the things that the Quran tells us to do has logical reasons. Most of the things that the Prophet Muhammad SAW tells us to do or things that he had done have logical reason, the only matter thing to do is to put what was said, and logical facts together. Remember that I said most, because there are things that we could not know or understand. These things are call Kursi (something like the knowledge of Allah SWT). It is only fair that the God of all the universe knows something that we do not. To have God-like knowledge, you need to be well God-like. That is word logic in itself don't you agree?

 

First of all, you are English I presume. England is a country of the Western oriented culture. However you Western cultured people would often other cultures as being alien from yours. It is the subconscious of Western psychology. So might there be many things that you have misunderstood. I am not saying that you do not understand, but I am merely pointing out the possibility that you might have understood Islam differently than what it is actually.

 

I am no Muslim scholar, but if I could be at help to make some of the things clear than permit me to try. I begin in the name of Allah the most Gracious and most Merciful.

 

Homophobia: The thing about the creation of Allah SWT the universe, everything has its own set of rule or system. You would know it as law. Laws of science for example or mathematics. Only one certain logical outcome maybe the answer nothing else would compute. Therefore in the system of human reproduction Allah SWt made man of male and female. One has a stick another has a hole, the male's sperm and a female's ovary is needed to create new life. it is a system with its function its flow, Any action away from the system would be a running against the system therefore the natural flow of the world would be out of balance. Imagine if everybody is homosexual today, the human species would cease to reproduce and soon be extinct. How hard is it to understand. Besides the creation of human bodily function would be a delicate scientific matter that only Allah SWT would know therefore creating a perfect human function to spread disease. It brings bad health to mankind that is why Allah SWT disapprove of it, but mankind is stubborn so He had to make it a law. Many Muslims disapprove of homosexuals but we do not discriminate them. Are you gay? would you mind if your offsprings are gay? Just a question, I was just curious.

 

Sexism against women part. In Islam women are placed higher than men. Did you know that, but every man is responsible for many women, wives, daughters, and sisters. In judgement day, things that the women do would be a question onto men. We actually take good care of our women. I do not know which Muslims did you see mistreating women, but I assure you they are acting on their own not under the circumstance of what Islam had thought them. The way you said it was also very vague and incomplete. What do you mean by sexism. Do we cuff them or tie them up, In Islam we could not even tie up a prisoner of war let alone women. Did you see Muslim women being raped by a Muslim man, that is the Muslim on doing not Islam. Segregation of the praying quarters: Well that is because men should not get distracted by women during prayers, they have to be separated because of the weakness of man, all Muslims know this. Is it because they could not lead, of course it is because they are a bit more emotional than men. They are already given the hardest job of all to give birth. Therefore why should men give them more trouble. In Islam we men have to respect women above all our mother who bore us.

 

Now the for this question, the girl was 9. I would like to ask for proof you to look for a girl in England and seek at what age did they get their periods. Because the coming of the periods is an indicator that she is now a women. Now in the old days the girls was mature at an earlier age, in fact not just the girls but also the guys. Look it up and I have the ripe age of marriage in Europe around the time of the Prophet Muhammad SAW was 12. You Western culture that was so far detached from the culture of where the religion came from see this as a travesty, but you forgot around that time in Europe 13 year old boys were conscripted to fight. Now Muhammad SAW did marry her for it was ordained by Allah SWT that this girl would be his wife. Every Muslim in the whole wide world knows her name, because of her contribution to the spread of Islam. We Muslims first follow the Quran then comes the hadith. The hadith is collected by the keepers and all of whose are close to the Prophet. Aisyah RA was the the only women in these group of keepers. One of the top two. Now imagine if she was to marry the Prophet 10 years later, the Prophet would be dead and there is no hadith for her to keep and that knowledge would be lost forever. Aisyah RA was one of the best Islamic teachers till date.

 

About the slavery, I have no recollection that the Prophet ever kept any slave. What proof you may give me that Muhammad SAW kept slave. To this I say you are misinformed, or misunderstood or have the wrong assumption I would not go so far as you are lying to be a gambit to test the knowledge of Muslims in this forum.

 

The last part is very simple to answer. Purpose. The purpose to man's existence to be accurate and technical. Allah SWT created man to worship Him to serve Him. Well it is up to Him to do as He please for He is God. He created man with a sole purpose of worshiping Him. Now mankind who does not even know Him has defeat its entire purpose of existence. What do you do to a person that does not do what he suppose to do? You punish them. They can are allowed to make mistakes along the way of fulfilling their purpose. We are only human. However to not complete your purpose altogether is unacceptable. As an atheist I know that you would never be satisfied with this answer, but is more than what science could offer or ever offer to that matter.

 

You said that you could be all merciful. What if someone broke into your house, steal everything you owned killed everyone you love including your dogs or cats. Rapes you and doing so takes away you very dignity. If you feel that scenario truly and believe in your heart that you would forgive that person. That is what it takes to be merciful.

 

Allah SWt is all knowing, why test if He knows the outcome. That is His Kursi. When the angels asked Allah SWT why do you create man who is bent on destruction of everything he touches, Allah SWT Behold, that I know the things that you do not. So I really could not answer. However just because I cannot answer that does not make me any less unsatisfied about becoming a Muslim. For we have faith, and to have faith is to believe with all your heart that Allah SWT exist and Islam is the truth. Beats any answer that NASA or CERN could ever give me. They are still struggling with the answers by the way after so many years.

 

I pray that Allah SWT would give you His light so that you may see the things that are hidden in the dark. All that is best of me comes from Allah SWT and the fault is my own. Amin

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Then why does Islam consider the witness of a woman half that of a man?

 

I've started a topic to answer your question, because its a question many non-Muslims are confused about, so I thought a separate topic would serve better all those who repeat the same question. The topic is here:

http://www.gawaher.com/topic/741186-why-two-women-witnesses/

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Moreover, Muslim men are taught to beat their wives. They are taught how in such a way as not to hurt them. It is to protect them and to keep them from being abused. I fail to see the logic. Why don't they teach them not to beat them at all to avoid abuse? As it is, I hear news reports of abused and battered Muslim woman.

 

Here is another topic that I've added to answer that repeated question of wife beating:

http://www.gawaher.com/topic/741187-is-wife-beating-allowed-in-Islam/

 

Just Google the statistics and see how many wife beating and domestic abuse cases are widespread in the non-Muslim west, together with rape and women abuse crimes, then compare the numbers to that of Muslim countries. I bet you'll be surprised.

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Moreover, Muslim men are taught to beat their wives. They are taught how in such a way as not to hurt them. It is to protect them and to keep them from being abused. I fail to see the logic. Why don't they teach them not to beat them at all to avoid abuse? As it is, I hear news reports of abused and battered Muslim woman.

 

Forgive me if I am taking your comments out of context on this, but you seem to be implying that only Muslim men beat their wives. In fact, in the United States, a country with only about 1% of the population Muslim at this time, the level of domestic abuse (specifically wife-beating) is far more rampant than ANY other country in the world. Yet how can that be in a predominantly Christian country if what you claim is true?

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The problem Redeemed is that you say that for Christians and yet most wife-beaters in the South proudly proclaim themselves Christian, even throwing Pauline theology out as the basis of why they beat their wives. And the church says NOTHING against them.

 

And yet you love to paint ALL Muslims as being supportive of beating their wives. There's a disconnect there.

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I believe there are many Muslims who treat there wives nicely. You have missed my point completely which was that wife beating is not taught as an option in Christianity like it is in Islam. We are not speaking of what people do in spite of the dictates of their religion. The painting you see is not mine but your perception.

Wife "beating" is not permitted in Islam. There are so many Hadith and other sources that condemn wife beating. The verse that everyone freaks out about (which has been covered many times on this forum) has been mistranslated. It intends to reflect the sentiment of flicking a miswak at your wife, or as another scholar said - popping her on the head with a rolled newspaper. Nothing violent, just a reminder. It is forbidden to leave a mark on your wife in Islam.

 

In any case, if Muslims whose "religion permits wife beating" beat their wives less than Christians whose religion "don't"... What's the problem?

Edited by Amna4
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Wife "beating" is not permitted in Islam. There are so many Hadith and other sources that condemn wife beating. The verse that everyone freaks out about (which has been covered many times on this forum) has been mistranslated. It intends to reflect the sentiment of flicking a miswak at your wife, or as another scholar said - popping her on the head with a rolled newspaper. Nothing violent, just a reminder. It is forbidden to leave a mark on your wife in Islam.

 

In any case, if Muslims whose "religion permits wife beating" beat their wives less than Christians whose religion "don't"... What's the problem?

 

Hi Amna4 et al

 

There are so many problems that I can see with this approach from both the moslem and christian points of view, where do I start.  Firstly it is sexist if the man can wack his wife with a miswak while she can’t wack him right back.  Yes I understand that a miswak is a very small and inoffensive weapon so it’s unlikely to hurt much but why should the man have that power over his wife as if she were a child and he the adult.  Isn’t her opinion just as valid as his?

 

From my perspective, humanism, neither party should have any power over the other based only on sex.  Adults need to have power over children for obvious reasons but a wife is not a child, she is, or at least should be, an adult equally important, intelligent and capable as the man if on average slightly smaller and weaker physically.  Any religion which does not absolutely condemn a man who hits his wife or abuses her in any way should be condemned in the strongest possible terms IMHO.

 

Do you feel it is OK for a man to treat his wife as in any way inferior to himself?  Is it right that he gets to decide what happens in the marriage with his casting vote in disputes so he can always win an argument against his wife?

 

Russell

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Hi Amna4 et al

 

There are so many problems that I can see with this approach from both the moslem and christian points of view, where do I start.  Firstly it is sexist if the man can wack his wife with a miswak while she can’t wack him right back.  Yes I understand that a miswak is a very small and inoffensive weapon so it’s unlikely to hurt much but why should the man have that power over his wife as if she were a child and he the adult.  Isn’t her opinion just as valid as his?

 

From my perspective, humanism, neither party should have any power over the other based only on sex.  Adults need to have power over children for obvious reasons but a wife is not a child, she is, or at least should be, an adult equally important, intelligent and capable as the man if on average slightly smaller and weaker physically.  Any religion which does not absolutely condemn a man who hits his wife or abuses her in any way should be condemned in the strongest possible terms IMHO.

 

Do you feel it is OK for a man to treat his wife as in any way inferior to himself?  Is it right that he gets to decide what happens in the marriage with his casting vote in disputes so he can always win an argument against his wife?

 

Russell

Well, my first question is - who said she can't wack him back? Why is she treated as inferior?

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Well, my first question is - who said she can't wack him back? Why is she treated as inferior?

Hi Amna4

 

Good question. My impression was that he had this power over her, that the quran was one sided in this.  If it does indeed say that she is free to wack him back then things are equal and that's fair.  Not that I think people should be whacking each other as way of settling disputes but at least there is no sexual inequality if the quarn actually says that she's entitled to give as good as she gets here.  Is the quarn really so sex neutral on this question however?

 

Russell

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[at]Russell

 

You are an atheist. What do you know about the ethics of religions? and why discuss details that you're as far away from as the sky and the earth?

As an atheist, your misunderstanding of "sexism", considering it a crime, directly entitles your wife to sleep with someone else if you did, turn your house into a boxing ring, sleep and stay with whomever you desire, have kids from, then leave anytime and change beds if you or her feels like it, shattering families and kids' hearts behind. Such filthy ethics doesn't entitle you to discuss how a decent religion sets the standard for a successful family and prosperous life for all family members.

 

I advise you to please stop discussing what you're not good enough to comprehend, and instead try to learn good stuff from Islam. Just a quick look at statistics will show you how families are tied together in the Muslim world, compared to the deterioration of the family and marriage concept, and the percentage of single parent families where you come from, as a direct result of your freakiness regarding sexism. Who knows, perhaps one day you come to your senses, clean yourself up and leave your filthy way of life.

 

Don't be too quick to condemn. Give yourself a chance to discover and understand the perfect reasons behind what looks to you as bad stuff. To understand anything better, Ask instead of attack. And always compare statistics in real life.

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Hi Amna4

 

Good question. My impression was that he had this power over her, that the quran was one sided in this.  If it does indeed say that she is free to wack him back then things are equal and that's fair.  Not that I think people should be whacking each other as way of settling disputes but at least there is no sexual inequality if the quarn actually says that she's entitled to give as good as she gets here.  Is the quarn really so sex neutral on this question however?

 

Russell

It doesn't say either way. What isn't said to be forbidden/haram is permissible in Islam - so my non-scholar, very little educated self would say there is nothing wrong with her wacking him back.

 

A way to think about this is - who has more of a tendency to use physical power over the other? The man or the woman? I would venture to say we could agree the man does. That could very well be why there have been so many verses on how a man must treat his wife (I'm sure we've posted enough? I don't remember in this thread but know for sure in others), and why a verse saying how far is permissible for a man to go is necessary.

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I dunno who so many Muslims reach wrong conclusions that if Islam is a complete way of life, then other ideologies must be as well. Atheism is just a belief that there is no supernatural force that created the world, often coupled with rational understanding of the world, including such things as morality. For example Buddha was an atheist and his moral conduct was superb, even by our time's standards.

 

The current promotion of homosexualism, sexual misconduct and the general criticism of traditional values in the West doesn't stem from atheism but from Marxism. It can be traced back to a group of Marxist thinkers informally called "the Frankfurt school", who wanted to destroy the western civilization by uprooting the core values it was based on (as global Marxist revolution failed to materialize after World War 1). Ironically, Muslims owe their growing presence in Europe to the same force.

Edited by Guan Yu

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Hi Dot

 

I see you don’t understand humanistic ethics and what it can teach us but I’m happy to explain but first lets deal with the specific misconceptions you have voiced in your post.

 

Sexism is an English word and its meaning is clear, unequal division of rules or benefits based on sex rather than merit.  That is the muslim way as it has been described to me in detail by muslims.  Is this not the case?  Is it not true that a man has the casting vote in a marriage just because he is a man?  Is it not true that a man may marry up to four women while a woman can only marry one man and is it not also true that a woman’s testimony is worth half that of a man’s in court?  So my characterization of your religion as sexist is simply applying the appropriate English term to the system your people have described to me and nothing more.

You said that because of my outlook my wife can sleep with someone else, this is indeed true and not just if I did it first, but she would not and for a far better reason than the reasons you give, she would not sleep with someone else even though she is allowed to because she is my wife and we have pledged to be together as husband and wife exclusively.  She is exclusively mine because she loves me and I love her which is a far better reason than because some religious idea tells her she must not do such and such.

 

You complain that neither of us is prevented from turning our house into a boxing ring, changing sexual partners at will, creating children then abandoning them etc which is indeed all true but it is not the way humanists act because we have a strong ethical framework to guide us.

 

Firstly humanistic ethics are guided by a simple principal, that the guide to human morality is real, it is human happiness but not the short term fleeting happiness of reckless behaviours but the long term sum of happiness within our society.  You try to please a god at the expense of human happiness, a god who, in all probability does not exist but I’m sure you would agree with me that humans exist and that they want to be happy so despite our different approaches to ethics we are agreed on the existence of the basis for humanistic morality.

 

You complain that my wife is allowed to sleep with other people as am I as if that were the most horrible thing that could happen but let’s look at this in more detail.  My wife and I have agreed to be exclusive because that is what works for us but I have met people for who sex with people outside their marriage is normal and agreed to by both of them.  They have agreed to always come back to their partners but to enjoy such opportunities that present themselves and from what I can tell they do.  They are very happy living this way, they have produced and raise children in this household and they are all doing well.  It’s not how I choose to live but it works for them, it produces a strong happy family so why should we say they can’t behave this way?  Sorry but the ‘god won’t like it’ argument does not work here, my guiding principal is the long term sum of human happiness.

 

Another point you raised was the creation of children who are then abandoned at a horrible cost but lets look at what the science tells us here and it is clear on this point.  People often stay together for the children even in my society when they have drifted apart and realized that they are unsuited to each other.  We have the advantage that at least these people were suited to each other in the first place because we don’t have arranged marriages in my culture.  I’ve met a number of families who have stayed together when they should not so it’s quite common.  The science is clear on this point, children raised by separated parents are far healthier mentally than those raised in two parent families by parents who are no longer suitable to be together.  Is it so horrible that my approach allows the most healthy environment for children to be created against the rules of your ‘god’?  The science also shows that lesbian couples raise mentally healthier children than heterosexual couples but again I assume you’d have a problem with this because of your god.

 

Now I’m sure you’d feel that it was terrible that children can be raised in single parent families under my system, that they can be raised by lesbian or gay couples and that humans are free to change partners at will in my system but all of that ignores what we are trying to achieve.  We are guided by the sum of human happiness and all of these things are allowed because in the right circumstances they can lead to better outcomes for humans.  They may make the old men in tents who wrote your holy book unhappy but they make humans happy, they create healthier children and those are great outcomes in my humble opinion.

 

I sense a great deal of anger coming from you Dot but all of your complaints seem to be based on a lack of understanding of humanistic morality, how it works, how it was created and how it is shaped.  I’m happy to explain it to you if you’d like to overcome these misunderstandings.  I’ve been studying religious ethics for quite some time and I was religious once so I have a very good idea of where you get your ethics from.  I’m sure we’d disagree on where that is but we can talk about that as we go on with this discussion.

 

Now I’m happy for you to explain why you feel that your system is superior but please try not to misunderstand me here and believe that I don’t know much about your ethics just because I disagree with them.  And please try to include the findings of science in your reply here because you may well find that it contradicts what you hold so deeply to be true.

 

Russell

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Your reply is all good and civil, except the part where you said "the old men in tents who wrote your holy book". Kindly do not resort to such insulting statements, and always remember that you are in an Islamic forum.

 

As for your humanistic ethics, this proved to be a disaster in many situations.

It doesn't stop you people from taking your own lovely pets to the vet and asking them to remove their reproductive organs. It doesn't stop you from supporting state terrorism, if it would suppress people that you don't like. It didn't stop you from racism in the past, massacring black people, Jews and other minorities, even wiping out whole races and originals, if that makes your economy expand and prosper. It doesn't prevent you from producing and selling weapons of mass destruction to both fighting parties if you wanted them to finish each other, while keeping the cash flowing at home.

 

You thought that happiness evolves around your own self. That is a lethal concept, because it led you to commit horrible crimes against humanity, without a flick of an eye, as long as you're leading a happy personal life at your end.

 

Did it ever occur to you to think of what would happen to the millions of the less masculine men or less desiring or beautiful women, when they live in a free competitive sex market, where spouses swap wives. How do you expect a wife to keep the affection she had for her husband after she discovers that there are much better guys out there?

And if your loyalty to each other is based on love, what happens if that love evaporated as time goes by? But since you mentioned that you believe that wives have the right to sleep with others freely, I think all that talk here would be indifferent to you.

 

The difference between your humanistic ethical system and the system laid down for us by our Creator, is the difference between selfish living and individualism, and between a perfect system where all people get equal in terms of happiness. Please review suicide statistics, both in the atheistic west, and the Muslim world, then let's discuss which systems works, and which fails. Your own happiness in your family doesn't mean that everyone is happy like you are.  Your good ethical spirit would probably prevent you from doing any bad stuff. But can you guarantee that the world will also follow the same level of good ethics that you enjoy? The world is never that simple, and there are good and bad people everywhere around us. That is why the system cannot be left for individuals to decide. That is why all the bad things happen on the hands of the west every day all over the world. Religions were created to solve that issue, and Islam gives the best balanced way of life for all humans.

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Hi All
 

You’ll find that I am a very honest person, I won’t say anything here if I do not believe it to be true and I have a problem with lying in all its forms but I’ve been instructed to lie by the moderators of this forum.  How do I handle that?
 

I’m an atheist, I said that in my intro post to this forum and I make no secret of it. Being an atheist means that I’ve never found a god that seems plausible to me.  Given that who do you think I believe wrote the bible?  Who wrote the quran?  We agree, I assume, that men did though some people obviously believe that a god inspire/instructed them to do so.  Obviously I disagree or I would not be an atheist.  So what does that mean?  We both see men writing these books but I see just the men, men from long ago, men who were ignorant of our modern society, men who quite probably lived in tents.  Hey I have spent quite a bit of my life in a tent so there’s no insult there.  But I’ve been told that to spell all of that out in a statement is to insult the prophet and so I must not do so.
 

In short I’ve been given a warming for telling the truth as I see it, for being honest with you.  What do you think I should do about that?  Should I lie to keep the moderators of this forum happy?  Is that really the sort of forum you want here?
 

Russell
 

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You keep earning yourself warning points Russell. You can easily avoid further points if you please start reading our forum rules. We know you're an atheist, and we welcome all non-Muslims here. No one asked you to lie. But no one allows you to insult either. To say a statement that the Quran was written by a human is a great insult here. You're free to think as you wish, but you're not free to put your wrong info into factual forms. You will not be allowed to do that here.

You can say for example: "I think that the Quran is made by a human" - but you cannot say "the Quran is made by a human".

Please excuse our scrupulousness regarding how you put a statement, but if we allowed such wordings, it would mean that you are here to teach us the facts about our religion.

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