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Refute A Question

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I just looked up the definition of Refute.  After reading it I'm curious how anyone can safely refute Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddism, Hinduism, Paganism, Polytheism, etc?  After one of the forum rules is not to cause anyone to lose their faith.  Any thoughts?  I can see comparing religions but to refute would be unethical and against the rules.

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I don't think it is actually possible to refute any of these religions. 

 

Verb
  1. Prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.
  2. Prove that (someone) is wrong.

 

Religion is faith based. Not proof based. People can have faith in Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddism, Hinduism, Paganism, Polytheism, etc. However, one cannot deny this is a leap of Faith. A leap of Faith is required when absolute proof does not exist.  

 

So have any been disproved?... No... People just have differences in their beliefs...

 

Fish2000

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Fist2000, religion is faith based and it cannot be proven? Well perhaps for some other religion and beliefs such as Atheism, but in Islam we have proof.

For a starter, how about spending a few minutes listening to the clip below? You can follow up the rest by going to the link for the rest..

 

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Fish,

 

 I think I must disagree truth, including in religion can be quantified and not just subjective. 

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Fist2000, religion is faith based and it cannot be proven? Well perhaps for some other religion and beliefs such as Atheism, but in Islam we have proof.

For a starter, how about spending a few minutes listening to the clip below? You can follow up the rest by going to the link for the rest..

 

Interesting clip. 

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OK. I have seen the clip. The only point I would like to make is as follows: 

 

If you are to accept this to be true. You must acknowledge that Christians and many other religions claim to have proof on the same grounds. That is; their scriptures, their profits, their underlying faith in Allah / God.

 

In this clip he refers to us needing proof when we make a claim. Examples given are if the Electricity meter reader came to your house. He goes on to explain that, if we are asked to prove the earth orbits the sun - we may not be able to do so - however we have faith in science and the "common belief" that it is true. I agree - there is faith in Science. 

 

So back to my point. If you are to use the logic in this video. Then proof (if it is only substantial evidence), can be provided for Christianity, Islam and a Scientific approach (with absence of a God). 

 

I certainly don't believe all three. Yet one could claim there is substantial evidence for all three. What is certain is that people believe the theories and the evidence that supports their faith. This speaker in this video believes in evidence that supports his faith. Just like a Catholic Priest will believe in evidence that supports his faith etc. 

 

So if I was to accept this as proof. I would need to also on the same logic bow to the Catholic Priest and accept his belief to be true. And of course the evolutionary biologist. 

 

WOW. I have just found faith... I am an Islamic, Christian Jewish, Atheist scholar! 

 

This is not proof! 

 

Fish2000

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Fish2000,

It is one thing to assume that; since everyone claims to have the truth and offers proof for their claim and then conclude that all those claims and proofs are legitimate. They can't be for a simple reason that each of those 'truth' contradicts the other 'truths'. Truth tends to be 'singular' in nature, if you get what I mean.

So I find you reasoning a little off here, I'm sorry..

Edited by RAHIMI

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Fish2000,

It is one thing to assume that; since everyone claims to have the truth and offers proof for their claim and then conclude that all those claims and proofs are legitimate. They can't be for a simple reason that each of those 'truth' contradicts the other 'truths'. Truth tends to be 'singular' in nature, if you get what I mean.

So I find you reasoning a little off here, I'm sorry..

 

Hi Rahimi, 

 

I dont claim all three are true. I am claiming exactly as you state - they contradict each other. 

None can claim to be true. They can claim to be faith but not truth. All will claim to be true and that is not possible. 

 

Islam might be true. Christianity might be true. Atheism might be true. All ask for a leap of faith. None can prove 100%. That is why we have faith (to bridge the gap). 

 

Christians claim Jesus is the truth. Islam claims Mohammad is the truth. Science claims evolution to be true. All will claim the other to be false. All have plenty of evidence. 

 

We must understand faith versus truth. To reject the difference between 'truth' and 'faith' is 'Chauvinistic':

 

extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of any group to which one belongs

 

Fish2000

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Hi Rahimi, 

 

I dont claim all three are true. I am claiming exactly as you state - they contradict each other. 

None can claim to be true. 

 

Fish2000

Fish, again, you are using false reasoning here, which is, since each of the claim is contradictory to each other; none of them can be true..

The point being, before one jumps into 'faith', truth needs to be established first..DO you see my point?

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Not really. My point is that the three religions mentioned above will claim to be true. 

 

It is obvious that all believe (have faith) - however neither can prove to be the truth. People have faith in their religion therefore accept it as truth - that is faith. This is the reason religion is referred to as faith. 

 

They cannot all be right. I am not stating all are wrong. I am stating that all cannot be true

 

If I was to fold and say you have the truth - that is to confirm that I believe in Islam. However, if I was to be presented with the same argument from a Catholic Priest (and I have), they are adamant there religion is the truth. I still reject this claim and say "what about the Muslims - they claim to have the truth"?

 

Muslims believe in Islam. 

Christians believe in Christianity. 

 

Is either true? Is either false? This is not the question...

 

I am asserting there is a difference between knowledge and faith. 

 

If you claim to know these things you are claiming to have the power of God/Allah - that is knowing what we can not possibly know or comprehend. 

 

Fish2000

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Not really. My point is that the three religions mentioned above will claim to be true. 

 

It is obvious that all believe (have faith) - however neither can prove to be the truth. People have faith in their religion therefore accept it as truth - that is faith. This is the reason religion is referred to as faith. 

 

They cannot all be right. I am not stating all are wrong. I am stating that all cannot be true

 

 

I am asserting there is a difference between knowledge and faith. 

 

If you claim to know these things you are claiming to have the power of God/Allah - that is knowing what we can not possibly know or comprehend. 

 

Fish2000

Well Fish,

Faith: Imagine jumping off a cliff, first we need evidence and proof that there is water below, the height is safe, no hazard below the surface etc, once we established all these facts, then it is faith that we hold on to once we decided to jump. What you seemed to imply or suggest is that faith has nothing to do with knowledge, evidences, proof etc and therefore dismiss religion based on this flawed perspective. 

 

GOD or Allah is not Someone that we could ever comprehend but there are evidences all around us and even within our own self of His Majestic Power and Wills. As Muslims, we believe that Quran is His words and through Quran and the words of the Prophet pbuh that we know Him..

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I dont think we can agree here :-)

 

If you had no eyes and where jumping off a cliff.

What if half the world told you the water was red and the other half told you the water was blue?

 

The reds say if you don't believe it is red - you will go to hell for eternity. 

The blues say if you don't believe it is blue - you will go to hell for eternity. 

 

It is believing the water that is important. The connection you have with the water in your heart. If you are true, good and respect and love life - the water will catch you.

 

I don't believe an 'evil blue' is better than a 'good red'. Or that an 'evil red' is better than a 'good blue'. And for that reason I find my self at odds with Christianity and Islam. Or at least believe both a grossly misinterpreted. 

 

I can be good. I can respect life and protect people. And if the water turns out to be true.

 

Fish2000

Edited by fish2000

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Fish, as mentioned before, if half the world tells you one thing and the other half yet another, the wise thing to do is to sincerely investigate all evidences to ascertain the truth. To dismiss, ignore or reject is really up to you, a choice that is yours and yours alone to make based on your evidence that you used to support that decision.

If you rejections or dismissal is solely based on emotional reasons, i.e you dislike or disagree with the ' consequences ' of accepting or not accepting the 'truth' , then I would to say that the reasoning is rather irrational, given there are many things that we dislike, we dislike death but the fact of the matter is, soon each of us is going to die.. 

My point is, do not apply false, irrational, or emotional reasoning to justify your choice but instead investigate the evidence with a clear and rational mind without prejudice and preconceived 'truth'.  

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Faith is a matter of choice. We called to walk be faith not by sight. Psalm 119:3

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It is interesting, that as I read through these forums the words 'irrational' and 'ignorant' are often used for someone that has 'closed eyes' and has not yet adopted Islam. 

 

But keep in mind that there is evidence on all sides. All sides can claim to have proof. However proof is not the same as fact. I would say there is evidence that Allah / God doesn't exist and could claim that people are 'ignorant' for not seeing that proof. But I do not claim that. I do not believe it is healthy to band people as ignorant due to their faith.

 

What you have is Faith -  confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a deity or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. 

 

 

My point is, do not apply false, irrational, or emotional reasoning to justify your choice but instead investigate the evidence with a clear and rational mind without prejudice and preconceived 'truth'.  

 

I dont have 'preconceived truth'. I have started with no specific faith or belief and I am reading the Quran, The Bible, The Hadith's and the Science perspective. All should be studies by a person genuinely interested in who they are. All have absolute believers that will call it fact.

 

None offers 100% proof hence they all require faith. That is after all - what the definition on faith is... 

 

I understand that your faith is truth is your eyes. One of the beautiful things about being human is that there are some things larger than us that we can not claim to know.

 

Fish200 

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Faith is a matter of choice. We called to walk be faith not by sight. Psalm 119:3

 

Yes. That is what I am saying. 

You are being told to believe in something that you could not possibly know "faith".

 

Can faith be refuted? 

 

 

The wonderful thing is; that no-one can take your that faith away from you. 

The same goes for Christians and Jews. That is their choice.

You only let go by choice. No one can take it out of you without your will. 

 

Fish2000

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Faith is a personal act. It is the free response of the person to the initiative of God who reveals himself, But it is not a isolated act. One can not believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You did not give yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. A believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Love for Jesus and our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus linked in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith. From the CCC 166

 

Also

 

In matters of faith and science: Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and presevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things who made them what they are. CCC 159

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Fish, OK lets go back to my earlier analogy about jumping off the cliff. Now, if we know and established that down below are solid rock instead of water, would it still be 'faith' that make us jump off? Now, think of the most complex thing created by men, for example a space shuttle.  Never in a million years that you would accept that a space shuttle can create itself or appear from nothingness or be built without intellect and wills behind it. Spaceship Earth is million times more in complexities than a puny space shuttle, here we are on spaceship earth moving hundred of thousand miles per hour, the lower atmosphere support breathable are, upper atmospheres provide layers of protection etc.  Some 'faith' require one to believe that God become man, weak,suffers from hunger, become ignorant etc. The point here being, some 'faith' require one to believe or accept impossibilities. How could one accept that all these complex systems arise from nothing and without a Creator when the entire human experience says otherwise? How could anyone accept the impossibility that God is All Knowing yet become an ignorant man at the same time? This is the same as jumping off the cliff while believing and having faith that solid rocks won't kill you.

You seem to equate 'blind faith' in which one needs to ignore or deny the knowledge,facts and experience with that of real 'faith', which is the one that is based on knowledge and understanding.

 

Hope this makes sense... 

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It does. But we're are off topic a little.

 

We did not start on whether or not a creator exists. If I put the Christians, Jews and the Muslims together - you would all support the same argument re the existence of a creator. I am not (although we might have gone off topic) trying to refute a creator. That is for another post. 

 

My first post stated that neither religion can truly refute the other. But I understand that each can in their own eyes: 

  • Christians believe their faith in the truth.
  • Muslims believe their faith is the truth.

May I make a little joke at this point in time. That is to offer great thanks to you, for believing that I might be in a position to break this deadlock... I'm sorry to let you down...

 

Maybe if I was God I could tell the world which is right and which is wrong :-) 

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The cliff jumping analogy confused me greatly.  Explaining it as you have hasn't helped.  So perhaps a different analogy.  So perhaps a babylon 5 (tv series) analogy:

 

Lorien:The universe began with a word.But which came first; the word or the thought behind the word? You can't create language without thought, and you can't conceive a thought without language, so which created the other and thus created the universe?

 

Deep yes?

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Fish & gmc, the gist of what I was trying to convey is that, 'faith' shouldn't involved believing in 'impossibilities' but instead should be based on established knowledge and logic.

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I would substitute the word should to could.  Should almost implies that there is no choice in the matter when in fact choice is the matter.  Fish is more accurate.

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Gscbrrom,

 

Ha. Deeply confused now... Let me try to better your post. 

 

If there was a Muslim chicken, a Christian duck and a Atheist fish:

 

The chicken said the path was 4 miles long then veered to the left... 

The duck said they path was 4 miles long and veered to the right....

The fish looked at you and said it was going nowhere. It was going to hang out in it's bowl and drink beer...

 

The chicken and the duck waddled off down the path and left you with the fish...

 

How do you know what way the path veered? 

 

What is the point in asking the fish?

 

Fish2000

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There is always a choice, one could choose to believe in impossibilities, eg that jumping on solid rock 100m down the cliff won't kill you and 'faithfully' jumped. But that is no longer faith, isn't it?

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Ha ha. especially since its lent and i could eat the fish.  :) hungry anyone?

Edited by gmcbroom

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