Jump to content
Islamic Forum
iceHorse

Can We Define "moderate Muslim" ?

Recommended Posts

 

Again there is a difference here unless you really care to prove it.  The Qur'an clearly condemns reversion by force.  Insha'Allah Suhaib83 will be able to post soon and he can really address this as his knowledge is vastly more extensive than my own on this subject.  The violence perpetrated by Islam has been created by the idea of racial superiority and nationalism, both of which fly in the face of Islam.  You should message Suhaib though and see if we can't get him in on this conversation

 

Well we can agree that Islam isn't a race or a nationality. Now, I'm suspicious of the media, and I take it all "with a grain of salt". That said, what I see in the media is often what we might call an "Islamist" stance much more than a race stance or a nationalist stance. Do you see these reports differently?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

Well we can agree that Islam isn't a race or a nationality. Now, I'm suspicious of the media, and I take it all "with a grain of salt". That said, what I see in the media is often what we might call an "Islamist" stance much more than a race stance or a nationalist stance. Do you see these reports differently?

 

I do.  But, my view of these reports are because of my newfound understanding of Islam.  What I see is a political agenda in the guise of a religion.  Groups like Al Qaeda and Taliban are not religious.  They use the religion to try and gain influence.  The Taliban, for instance, was content when they were in charge of Afghanistan.  Al Qaeda wants to continue to receive funding.  At the root of both is not the Qur'an or the sunna or even hadith, rather the root of what they believe is based around a few radical clerics combined with a singular idealogy known as Salafism.  I am a staunch opponent of this idealogy as I see it as blasphemous to the teachings of the Qur'an and dangerous in its views concerning non-Muslims, which conflicts sharply to that which was practiced by the prophet.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to offer a counter argument. It's delicate, but I think it's important. Of course, in no way do I support the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

 

But it does seem to me that if a supporter of either of these groups were to join this discussion, they would have a very easy time quoting the scripture to support their views and their actions. This seems like a problem to me...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to offer a counter argument. It's delicate, but I think it's important. Of course, in no way do I support the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

 

But it does seem to me that if a supporter of either of these groups were to join this discussion, they would have a very easy time quoting the scripture to support their views and their actions. This seems like a problem to me...

 

the KKK was able to do the same thing with the Bible.  The IRA was able to as well as the Crusaders.  The bomber of the abortion clinic.  I could go on and on and on.  Most of them might know bits and pieces of the Qur'an but when you start trying to ask them more in-depth questions about the Qur'an they come up short. When confronted with other verses that fly in the face of their tactics and mindset from the Qur'an they will begin to stutter and fall over themselves because most of them only know what they have heard and do not know the Qur'an.  See the Qur'an was not a book like Moby , its order is according to its revelation being completed and thus it is highly important to understand what was revealed when, why and what was going on at the time.  This is not confusion but context as the word qur'an means recite.  We are to understand the words of what is said and the manner in which they are said in conjunction with other things going on.  If we take things that are applied later and try to apply them first it becomes confusing.  But if we start at the beginning and work from there we can better understand the method of Allah (swt) which was to ease the believers into it.

 

For instance one of the most famous verses says to kill them wherever you find them but if you read it in context this is in reference to oppression where people are driven out of their home.  The time of revelation was the great persecution of Muslims by the polytheists of Mecca at the time. 

 

Give another example, many like to talk about make not friends nor allies of the Jews or Christians but yet the Qur'an also says that a Muslim man may marry a Christian or Jewish woman and that Christians are the closest friends to Muslims.  This would seem contrary if you did not understand the context or at least the language that is used.  When it says take not the Jews or Christians as allies it is referring to Muslims as a group not an individual.  We can be friends and cohabitat in a city but we should realize that the Jews or Christians will not have the interest of the Muslim.  They will try to convert the individual, naturally.   There is undoubtedly more to this but I am going to wrap this up so that it does not drag on as I think that my point is being made already.

 

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/kill.asp

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fathi - I think you're sidestepping the main issue. I agree with much of what you just said (not all, but much).

 

 

Most of them might know bits and pieces of the Qur'an but when you start trying to ask them more in-depth questions about the Qur'an they come up short.

 

But most specifically, I think you're on thin ice when you say that an Al Qaeda scholar can't put together a solid debate!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fathi - I think you're sidestepping the main issue. I agree with much of what you just said (not all, but much).

 

 

But most specifically, I think you're on thin ice when you say that an Al Qaeda scholar can't put together a solid debate!

 

Lol, an Al Qaeda scholar..... that is the funniest thing I have ever heard.  If he was a scholar he wouldn't be Al Qaeda.  I don't know why this is not getting through to you.  I have two imams at my local masjid, the first one spent over a decade studying the Qur'an and Islam in depth and the second one has memorized the entire Qur'an.  When asked about groups like Taliban and Al Qaeda I have been told what I am telling you now.  They do not know it, their motivations are political and if they do know it then they are clearly going against it and as such are not to be followed. 

 

I think this has been explained to you before, the idea of suicide is against the Qur'an.  The idea of killing unarmed citizens, the idea of aggressive warfare all fly in the face of the Qur'an. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fathi -

 

I think you are a good person. I think you are not fully honoring the Quran when you say these things. The idea of martyrdom is promoted repeatedly in the Quran. It seems you are deciding which parts of the Quran to follow and which parts to ignore. I am trying to understand its entire message, not just the politically correct bits.

 

Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING AL QAEDA in any way, but I think they have said over and over again that when they do a suicide attack, they are defending Islam from aggressors. This is what the Quran instructs them to do. Now, you and I agree that they've lost their way, but the problem is that their defense is plausible!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are criteria to warfare in Islam.  A fact I have told you before.  Also the Qur'an says destroy not yourselves.  It also says commit not injustice.  During war, in Islam, attacking unarmed civilians is wrong as is suicide.  If they were just killing soldiers we might have a completely different conversation.  And martydom is encouraged in Christianity as well.  Martyrdom is only counted if it follows the criteria.  Killing oneself is not martyrdom but fighing an enemy that is murdering Muslims and keeping Muslims from practicing their faith and then dying in the defense of this is honored and I would back this any day. 

 

I encourage you to invite suhaib85 into this conversation because he can go into even more depth

Edited by fathi
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must agree with fathi here. It is important that it is made clear that suicide is not allowed in Islam. Of course some people are going to try back up what they do by picking out a verse in the quran but the fact is the quran is a book as a whole it is not one verse. It is important to know that the majority of Muslims are against acts of killing innocent civilians. Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not teach his followers to blow themselves up in the middle of the streets where there could be children, where there could be sick people, where there could be good people. Suicide bombing is an indiscriminate act of killing and it is wrong in Islam. He did not teach his followers to use bombs under cars and take people as hostages. There is no denying warfare has a place in Islam and it is nothing Muslims should be ashamed of. But warfare has its rules in Islam, its limits. These limits must be abided by as Allah says - do not transgress the limits.

 

I would also like to point out that if you look at the statistics more muslims are killed by suicide attacks than are non muslims. Every week there are stories of car bombs in some muslim countries which are also wrong in Islam. Islam prohibits extreme teachings. There must be a balance in the teachings of Islam - each verse has a place in society and they all work in harmony together. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

iceHorse -

 

"The idea of martyrdom is promoted repeatedly in the Quran."

 

Martyrdom is not the same as suicide, as anyone familiar with the Christian tradition and history of martyrs can also attest. For in Islam, the martyr (shaheed) is one who gives up their life for the sake of the Creator, in the higher cause of faith. Such as one who dies at the hands of one who persecutes such a person for being a Muslim, yet still refuses to abandon Islam, etc.

 

I make this parallel because the corollary is true in Islam just as it is in Christianity. Namely, while the virtues of such martyrs are extolled, suicide is considered a mortal sin foremost against the One God, since by ending one's life CONSCIOUSLY one is questioning the Divine Will, as only the Creator can give or take life. And also a mortal sin against the individual who commits the act, as well as against loved ones. It is a mortal sin because it involves DESPAIR.

 

So there is a clear difference between martyrdom and suicide, including these suicide attacks.....because of the intention. The intention of the one who commits suicide is to end their life, whereas the martyr does not have that specific intention to end their life when they stand up for their faith.

 

That being said, there is a rich tradition in classical Islamic scholarship and very well known historical works of those scholars, carrying on a rich tradition of a deeper spirituality in jihad which is a chivalric tradition. Whereas this modern ideology of Jihadism is nothing but suicidal fanaticism which has way more to do with Western concepts such as total war than it does to the Prophetic tradition. Indeed it is a HERESY and proponents of such an ideology are heretics who have nothing to do with orthodox Islam.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fathi -

 

I think you are a good person. I think you are not fully honoring the Quran when you say these things. The idea of martyrdom is promoted repeatedly in the Quran. It seems you are deciding which parts of the Quran to follow and which parts to ignore. I am trying to understand its entire message, not just the politically correct bits.

 

Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING AL QAEDA in any way, but I think they have said over and over again that when they do a suicide attack, they are defending Islam from aggressors. This is what the Quran instructs them to do. Now, you and I agree that they've lost their way, but the problem is that their defense is plausible!

 

 

 

The idea of martyrdom is promoted repeatedly in the Quran

 

do you know that if pregnant woman die at the birth she is a martyr according to Islam, if you defend your home from a thief and he kill you , you are a martyr, or if you drown you are a martyr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

do you know that if pregnant woman die at the birth she is a martyr according to Islam, if you defend your home from a thief and he kill you , you are a martyr, or if you drown you are a martyr.

 

andalusi - I didn't know that. thanks! 

 

but in the Quran translation that I read, that's not the kind of martyrdom that the Quran is mostly talking about. it might be that the sort of situation you described is discussed a few times, but for the most part, martyrdom is discussed in the context of fighting non-believers. Correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. . . . . , but for the most part, martyrdom is discussed in the context of fighting non-believers. Correct?

To see the context, we should read the reason or cause of reveal - asbabun nuzul.

So, to save time please point out the ayat you meant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

andalusi - I didn't know that. thanks! 

 

but in the Quran translation that I read, that's not the kind of martyrdom that the Quran is mostly talking about. it might be that the sort of situation you described is discussed a few times, but for the most part, martyrdom is discussed in the context of fighting non-believers. Correct?

 

that deatiled infomration about martyrs you will get from prophet Hadith not from quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are several places where the topic of fighting and dying for Allah is discussed:

 

 

3:140

3:143

3:157

3:158

3:169 - 3:172

4:69

4:74

4:75

4:77

9:20

9:29

9:38 - 9:43

9:86

33:16

33:23

47:2 - 47:4

47:20

56:10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are several places where the topic of fighting and dying for Allah is discussed:

 

 

3:140

3:143

3:157

3:158

3:169 - 3:172

4:69

4:74

4:75

4:77

9:20

9:29

9:38 - 9:43

9:86

33:16

33:23

47:2 - 47:4

47:20

56:10

 

best explanation of fighting in the way of Allah was made by Deedat, and everybody would agree with him, he was such amazing wise man,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYe7t9zDJgE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm here to learn, not argue. On this point we will have to agree to disagree.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Icehorse there was another topic where a three part video was posted where Yusuf estes went into great detail explaining it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×