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Whats Wrong With Homosexuality

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Hi All

 

I’ve touched upon this topic in a number of discussion threads but have yet received any rational answers so I’ll start a new thread for this discussion to see if anyone can answer this.

 

What is wrong with homosexuality?

 

Now as you probably know I’m an atheist so the “god doesn’t like it” argument doesn’t wash with me, what I want is any rational arguments in favor of a homophobic stance because to date I’ve never found one.

 

Arguments already dealt with here.

 

Homosexuals don’t reproduce:-  This is true enough but why is it a complaint?  Some heterosexual couples also choose not to have children so this is not a complaint specifically against homosexuality rather it is pushing the idea that we must produce more children.  Of course we already live on an overcrowded planet so I’m not sure why reducing our reproduction should be seen as a bad thing anyway but I’ll let you speak on that issue if you’d like.

 

It’s unnatural:- Natural is what nature does.  Animals don’t fly in aeroplanes, they don’t drive cars or keep their food in refrigerators.  Animals also don’t arrange marriages but they do have homosexual sex, quite a lot of it actually.  It’s specifically common among some of our closest relatives the bonobo chimps.  If you wish to complain about unnatural things you should complain about arranged marriages and flying in planes before you complain about homosexuality.

 

Slippery slope:- if we allow homosexuality soon people will be marrying animals and no one will form heterosexual unions and our race will be destroyed.  Where do I start with this one?  Firstly evolutionary theory shows us that traits that are not passed on won’t become dominant so homosexuality, in as much as it is genetically based, will never become dominant in our species.  As for marrying animals it suffers from the same fatal flaw, even if this did happen, and there’s no logical reason why the one would lead to the other, a trait that does not get passed on won’t become dominant so this won’t threaten our species but more than that have you ever looked at the back end of an animal?  How many people could ever be attracted to that?

 

That’ll do to get things started.  Do you have any more problems with homosexuality apart from the fact that you are straight, as am I, and so don’t want to take part?

 

Russell

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PropellerAds

If you want to take a non religoius view on it, then look into the amount of STD's and illnesses amongst the gay population. Medically speaking gay intercourse puts those individuals health at risk.

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Hi Ala’adin

 

Sexually transmitted diseases are a problem for all people, gay or straight.  Historically homosexual males had a higher rate than heterosexuals while lesbians suffered from a lower rate than heterosexuals.  I’m yet to see anyone raise this as a reason to promote lesbianism but logically that is what we should be doing if STD were really the issue.

 

In more recent years, with the dramatic rise in condom use, STD’s among homosexual males has dropped to levels below those of promiscuous heterosexuals and the majority of the diseases involved can be cured with less effort than required to treat any number of other ailments.  Maybe this is still an issue in other countries, I gather STD’s in general are a very serious issue in many more backward countries especially those in which the catholic church has a hand due to them banning condom use.

 

In the end STD’s are an issue for all sex, there are variations in rates between lesbian, heterosexual and homosexual sex but the differences, if protective measures are correctly used are very low and the rates themselves are very low.

 

Another point is that life is full of risks, we take a risk every time we step outside our front door.  We have to choose which risks we are personally willing to take and, so long as we do so with our eyes open, surely those choices should be ours to make.

 

Russell

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Hi Younes

 

Incest is a complex question.  I’ve heard of a happily married brother and sister raising their children in the US but much incest is not like that so it is a fraught area.

 

The first consideration is, in my humble opinion, genetic.  If incest produces children those children are far more likely to suffer from genetic defects so incest which leads to the production of children should not be allowed.

 

Remove that and incest is sex.  Sex can be bad as in rape or coercion etc or it can be very good.  These questions get complicated because in most situations incest would involve people of varying power levels so the chances of two people being rationally able to agree to participate is probably low so that makes incest bad.  Incest between a parent and a child for example would normally involve one person with power over the other either emotional or physical.  Obviously that should never happen.  Incest between siblings is another area, it is probably possible for such a pairing to agree rationally to take part without coercion so so long as no children where produced I can’t see a problem with this form of incest.

 

Russell

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Hi Redeemed

 

I think I covered the fact that the “god does not like it” argument doesn’t carry much weight with an atheist.  I was looking for reasons why anyone might have a problem with it.  Do you have any?

 

Russell

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Hi Redeemed

 

What is your definition of natural?  To me it’s what nature does without people.  I’ve never heard of animals building and riding in aeroplanes, I’ve never heard of animals putting their food into refrigerators and I’ve never heard of animals arranging marriages but it seems pretty common in the animal kingdom to have homosexual sex.  As I said bonobo chimps, in the wild, have lesbian and homosexual sex regularly.  Many other species do it too.  So your definition of ‘natural’ can’t be what nature does because if it were you would be against refrigeration, arranged marriages and flying in aeroplanes and all for homosexual sex so what is it?  How do you define natural?

 

Russell

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Russel with the points that you made for homosexuals, I'm guessing your ok with legalising all drugs? Looking at it purely from a health perspective it is not something that would be advised.

 

There is no risk of transmitting STD's when there is a couple who are and have only ever been with each other, that is not the case with homosexuality

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Ala'adin, I hate to counter your point but it is simply untrue.

 

There are many homosexuals who live with "life partners" and are much more faithful than many heterosexual couples. The issue of STDs is that of fidelity, not of sexual orientation.

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:sl:

We say homosexuality is unacceptable for us Muslims, because Muslims are ones who obey Allah. That's a reason good enough for us to stay away from it. As for non Muslims, the first argument would be acceptance of Islam. And in your case it would be the existence of a Creator. Other arguments actually would come after that. But since you are curious, yes homosexuality is wrong, and in Islam it is regarded unnatural. Because the way the genes could be passed on to the next generation would be if a woman and man have a relationship. It is not natural for someone to be interested in the same sex as you.

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Hi Ala’adin

 

Drugs and homosexuality are different questions but I’m happy to talk about either or both if you wish.

 

Firstly on homosexual sex, there is virtually zero chance of passing on or contracting an STD if you save yourself as a virgin till you decide you and your partner, who is also a virgin, decide that you wish to have a sexual relationship.  That is true for heterosexuals and it’s true for homosexuals.  If you go out and “play the field” you have a chance of catching an STD though there are simple measures that can dramatically reduce your chances.  Unprotected sex with partners of unknown sexual health can lead to the transmission of STD’s.  Lesbian sex is by far the safest kind in this respect followed by heterosexual sex with male to male homosexual sex being on very slightly more dangerous than heterosexual sex and both homosexual and heterosexual being significantly more dangerous than lesbian sex which is by far the safest.  You see the problem here isn’t homosexual sex its unprotected sex and sex with partners of unknown sexual health. Protected male on male homosexual sex is far safer than unprotected heterosexual sex in the same circumstance.

 

As I said drugs are a separate question and you can’t just say drugs are good or drugs are bad you have to consider the case for each drug individually.  Caffeine is a drug, I love coffee but I don’t see any significant problems with making coffee legal though there are a few studies which suggest that too much caffeine is a problem especially in those energy drinks that children are now into which contain a lot of caffeine.  Chug two of those before school instead of breakfast and you’ve had the equivalent of 16 cups of coffee or thereabouts. But in moderation caffeine is fine.

 

Alcohol does produce problems.  Some people can’t handle it, they drink too much and this can cause issues from violence to homelessness and family breakdown.  Certainly terrible consequences but for the vast majority of users, and that includes me, alcohol is just a nice way to pass the time akin to caffeine but with a different and more powerful effect.  For most people it’s not an issue so we setup laws and treatment programs that can help the small minority who have problems with it and the rest of us just have a better life with a few drinks on the weekend or at a party.

 

If you wish to name another drug I’ll comment but many drugs produce dangerous health effects in a large percentage of users, they cause problems for a far higher percentages of users than caffeine or alcohol so they cross the line beyond which we should accept them.  I think marijuana may be a questionable exception.  It’s been shown to have health benefits for some people and it does not produce the same damage that harder drugs do but it is more dangerous than alcohol so the jury is still out on whether or not it should be legal.  I certainly don’t know enough about it to judge it fully.

 

Russell

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Hi Amna4

 

I agree that homosexuality is not the big problem here it is sexual promiscuity and infidelity and of course the failure to use the available and very effective protective measures when having risky sex.  Homosexuals are more likely to have a larger number of sexual partners than heterosexuals though not dramatically but they do often form long term, even life, partnerships just as heterosexuals do and for virtually all of the same reasons.

 

Russell

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Hi bint Ali......ÈäÊ Úáì

 

Yes I’m curious to find out what you think but, as I’ve said before, as an atheist the “god doesn’t like it” argument doesn’t wash with me.  So far no one here has come up with a better argument well not one that holds water at least.

 

I asked earlier how you define natural.  In the English language the word has a specific meaning; it’s basically what nature does without us.  If it’s in nature then its natural if it’s not then it isn’t.  As I said before animals don’t build and fly in aeroplane use fridges or arrange marriages but we do these things all the time.  Animals do have homosexual sex all the time so that is natural by the English definition of the word.  What I want to know is what word should we be using where you us natural against its dictionary definition.  From what I can tell to you natural is whatever god wants and does not depend at all on what nature does.  Is that about it?  I don’t think there is an English word for that concept at this stage.

 

I agree that homosexuals don’t produce children but many heterosexual couples also don’t produce children some by choice and some because of a medical condition so that’s hardly a definitive argument.  Recent research has shown us clearly that we live on an overpopulated planet, without scientific agriculture and the input of fossil resources we could not support our current population.  Those resources are finite so we will run out of such inputs in time.  Why do we want to go on producing children on an already overpopulated planet? Isn’t it better to reduce our rates of reproduction so that our species will continue to live for longer before we run out and a majority of as starve to death?  Isn’t anything which reduces our reproductive rate therefore a good thing?  The idea of reproduction without end is the logic of a cancer cell and I’m sure we all know how well that usually turns out.

 

So I agree that it is outside the human average to be attracted to the same sex and it is also true that homosexuals and lesbians don’t reproduce but neither of those things suggest to me that we should have a problem with homosexuality.  I’m straight so like you I don’t want to think about what they might get up to in their bedrooms at night but then I don’t want to know what you and your wife might get up to either as that’s all private for the people involved and so none of my business.

 

So the question again is do you have any real reasons why anyone should have a problem with homosexuality other than “god doesn’t like it”?

 

Russell

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Isn’t anything which reduces our reproductive rate therefore a good thing?  

 

Not really. For example, eugenics, killing people, massacres etc. will reduce our reproductive rate, but I wouldn't consider it a good thing. 

 

At the end of the day, if you want to talk anything on a purely secular level, it all comes down to moral relativism. On such a level, there is no objective right or wrong. Anything can be argued for or against - including murder, massacres, eugenics, etc. 

 

The problem with homosexuals is not what they do in private. Gay culture has permeated our societies. Thus, it isn't a simple matter of what people do in private. 

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Hi Younes

 

Yes I’d have to agree that the methods you mentioned to reduce our population were indeed horrible.  My point was that reducing our reproductive rate was a good but I did not mean that that could be by any means, the methods used must be subject to the same tests of morality as any other actions we may take.  We need to reduce our reproductive rate while remaining good moral beings in my opinion.

 

I agree that anything can be argued for in a secular moral system, I’d have to suggest that you would lose that argument if you argued for murder etc but you could certainly argue for it.

 

It’s true that homosexuality is now part of our culture in many countries but you’ll have to explain why that is a problem for anyone.  Who does it hurt to realize that homosexuals exist?  Who is hurt by being exposed to these ideas?  Are you worried that some sex crazed homosexual will try to whisk you off to their bedroom?  Maybe you don’t understand them very well but let me make it very clear, homosexuals aren’t sexually interested in straight people at all.  It’s as simple as that.  You have nothing to worry about here.

 

I meet people who are black, I meet people who are Asian, I meet people with really bad fashion sense and I meet people who are rabid football fans.  We are a very mixed bunch and homosexuality is just one more variation that I’m not interested in, one among so many.  Why should they worry me more than any other human variation that is not for me?

 

Russell

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Amna, my point was not about who was more faithful. However speaking to a doctor friend about this he said that there is a health risk regardless of fidelity, because of the nature of the sex (which russell refers to as risky) Again these are not my words but that from a doctor.

 

Normally I dont entertain dialouges like these, while there are many known negatives to homosexuality, ultimately for us Muslims it is because Allah has made it Haram that we are against it.

 

I know Russell you say that does not wash with you, maybe then we need to look at the argument from another way then. The argument should then be about whether or not there is a God, because if it can be proven that there is, then you should have no issue with God making homosexuality forbidden.

Edited by ala'adin

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There are no tests of morality. Morality isn't an objective science. 

 

I know that you are just speaking nonsense when you say that homosexuals aren't sexually interested in heterosexuals at all. Do you think that heterosexual men aren't sexually interested in beautiful lesbian women? You know that's not the case. So, why do you think homosexuals wouldn't be interested in straight people? I know for a fact that some are. But I am not worried about homosexuals. I am not afraid of them. But I do worry about homosexuals influencing my kids and the young when they are at an impressionable age just as I worry about promiscuous and foul heterosexuals influencing them as well. 

 

The fact is a lot of people find gay behavior disgusting and wrong. One could argue that it is  evolutionary. Our societies have grown to shun homosexuality just as we have grown to shun incest. Maybe it's because we realize that the former is a fruitless endeavor and the latter a damaging one? 

 

By the way, I honestly don't care about "winning" this argument. There is no winner on a secular level as there is no objective standard. 

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Hi bint Ali......ÈäÊ Úáì

 

Yes I’m curious to find out what you think but, as I’ve said before, as an atheist the “god doesn’t like it” argument doesn’t wash with me.  So far no one here has come up with a better argument well not one that holds water at least.

 

I asked earlier how you define natural.  In the English language the word has a specific meaning; it’s basically what nature does without us.  If it’s in nature then its natural if it’s not then it isn’t.  As I said before animals don’t build and fly in aeroplane use fridges or arrange marriages but we do these things all the time. 

 

I agree that homosexuals don’t produce children but many heterosexual couples also don’t produce children some by choice and some because of a medical condition so that’s hardly a definitive argument.  Recent research has shown us clearly that we live on an overpopulated planet, without scientific agriculture and the input of fossil resources we could not support our current population.  Those resources are finite so we will run out of such inputs in time.  Why do we want to go on producing children on an already overpopulated planet? Isn’t it better to reduce our rates of reproduction so that our species will continue to live for longer before we run out and a majority of as starve to death?  Isn’t anything which reduces our reproductive rate therefore a good thing? 

 

So I agree that it is outside the human average to be attracted to the same sex and it is also true that homosexuals and lesbians don’t reproduce but neither of those things suggest to me that we should have a problem with homosexuality.  I’m straight so like you I don’t want to think about what they might get up to in their bedrooms at night but then I don’t want to know what you and your wife might get up to either as that’s all private for the people involved and so none of my business.

 

So the question again is do you have any real reasons why anyone should have a problem with homosexuality other than “god doesn’t like it”?

 

Russell

 

Yes I have read before what you posted and that is the reason I said that to us 'Muslims' In my post. To us 'God doesn't like it' is a reason good enough to refrain from it.

 

In Islam we believe nature is in the hands of Allah. Allah is the decider. What ever He wills will happen. That is our belief. We believe Allah has created us. And in this life we should stay away from what He has forbidden. Nature doesn't just happen to be with time. It what Allah has willed. In every way that is. And Allah has created in such a way that we reproduce from a male and female. So the relationship must be between a man and a woman. What goes against that is unnatural. If you think that homosexuality is the solution to stop over population then you are wrong. There are contraception methods too. BTW I am a female and have a husband. :)

 

Maybe if I was a non Muslim it would not be a problem to me. But to a Muslim, what Allah loves matter the most. And that is one reason I have a problem with homosexuality.

 

On the whole I can say. 'God doesn't like it' is the best reason we have a problem with homosexuality

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Hi Ala’adin

 

Faithfulness is about humans, lesbians, heterosexuals and homosexuals are all unfaithful at times.  It is probably true that homosexuals are somewhat more so than heterosexuals but it is a matter of degree.  It’s possible, and quite common, to be a perfectly faithful partner in a homosexual relationship just as it is in a heterosexual one or a lesbian one.

 

The risks of homosexual sex are higher than for heterosexual sex though not to a huge degree.  Protected homosexual sex is safer than unprotected heterosexual sex so the biggest difference here isn’t whether the sex is homosexual or heterosexual but whether it is conducted in a safe and protected manner.  If safety was really your concern then that would be where you focused your efforts but that’s not it is it?  If you were really all about safety remember that Lesbian sex is still by far safer than either homosexual or heterosexual sex.  Surely if safety were really your concern you should be pushing lesbianism on everyone and banning all other sex.

 

The ‘god doesn’t like it’ argument is at the base of all muslim complaints about homosexuality that I’ve ever heard.  They will try to justify it with arguments about homosexuals failure to produce children and that what they do is unnatural but once you’ve shown them that both of these arguments are fatally flawed they all fall back on ‘god does not like it’.  If that’s really all it boils down to then maybe you guy’s should be honest enough to just admit that from the start rather than trying to spin it as something that is actually for the benefit of the people involved or for society in general.

 

In the end there is no argument against homosexuality other than ‘god does not like it’ which is a very weak position to take when you are discussing these things with an atheist.

 

Russell

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In the end there is no argument against homosexuality other than ‘god does not like it’

 

...but that's in your own humble opinion.

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Hi Younes

 

I’ve proposed a test of morality here before, you may not like it but it is objective though currently hard to measure.  As I’ve said before I’m a humanist, the long term sum of human happiness should be our objective measure for morality.  Any action should be judge on the effect it has on that long term sum.

 

You’re right that a male may well look at a lesbian and find her attractive but that was not the point I was making.  A homosexual may look at you as one looks at art and sees beauty but he will not be interested in getting into a sexual relationship with you.  Please ask any of them and you’ll find this is true.  If you are straight that is a huge turn off for them because you are not interested in the things that work for them sexually.  You have nothing in common that they’d want to be a part of sexually.

 

Do you actually believe that a homosexual could talk your children into becoming homosexual?  From all the research I’ve ever read that simply can’t happen.  Homosexuality is not a choice someone has made but a discovery, an often surprizing and unwanted discovery, at least at first.  I’ve met men who have had heterosexual relationships then later in life discovered that what really made them happy was being with men not women.

 

I’m one who finds homosexual sex a disgusting idea and I have no interest in it but, as I’ve said before, I don’t actually want to know what you and your wife get up to either.  All of that is and should be private.  There are many things that other people do that I don’t want any part of from food choices to riding motor bikes.  That does not mean that I should want to ban the things they do that I don’t like.  I’m not about to try to ban sushi just because I don’t like it for example.

 

Actually I do like sushi but I’m struggling to think of a food that I don’t like though snails do sound horrible I’ve never tasted one so I wouldn’t really know.

 

Personally I don’t think anyone should be displaying sexual behaviours in public lesbian, heterosexual or homosexual.  All such behaviours should be kept for a private place regardless of who is involved.

 

Maybe my society is different to yours, homosexuals are not shunned here, they are common enough and not many people here would treat them any differently to anyone else they may meet.  Yes some people would but not many.  Last night I was at a fashion parade in which my daughter had created one of the entries and the judge was a gay man.  He even wore the Elton John glasses and he spoke with the somewhat effeminate tone that some gay’s develop and I had no problems at all with him.  Why should I?  Another who I have dealt with quite regularly works at a café near my work and I often buy my food from him.  He’s also called Russell and he’s good at his job and I get my lunch quickly and well prepared/presented when I deal with him so I often do.

 

I’ve covered incest in another post so I won’t go into it here but I agree that most incest is indeed damaging both emotionally and genetically.  For my moral system those two factors make it wrong regardless of what god may think about it but my system is open enough to the possibility that there are circumstances in which it does not cause harm and may even be a force for good.  I suspect that such situations are very rare but I know of at least a couple of instances in which they do exist and my moral code would accept them but god is apparently too inflexible to see and allow that.

 

Russell

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Hi bint Ali......ÈäÊ Úáì

 

Yes I understand that ‘god does not like it’ is sufficient for you; that you need no more than that to object to homosexuality.  I have no qualms with that position so long as you do not try to enforce it on other people.  Hate homosexuals as much as you like but leave them alone and I’ll have no issues with you.

 

I come to these forums however and I find people making unfounded complaints against it trying to justify god’s dislike of homosexuality.  I started this thread to see if any of them held water but so far that is the only one which stands.  “God does not like it” is as deep as it really goes.  Maybe people here should admit that that is all there is to it.

 

The word ‘Natural’ in the English language has a very specific meaning and the idea that it means ‘whatever god want’s’ is not it.  Natural means what nature does without us.  We see homosexuality in nature all the time, it’s quite common, so by the English definition of that word homosexuality is natural.  I think you need to find another word that captures what you are trying to express here because English speakers will get confused when you wrap the will of god in the word natural.

 

I’m not suggesting that turning everyone homosexual is an appropriate way of reducing our population but the complaint was made by posters here that that was a serious flaw in the homosexual lifestyle.  As you have just pointed out, in agreement with what I said, even heterosexual couples can choose not to have babies.  Does Islam have a problem with contraception as the Christians do by the way?

 

Russell

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Hi Younes

 

Yes that is my own humble opinion but it is based on the fact that no one here, or at the other forums I’ve raised this question at, has ever come up with a counter.  Can you see a secular reason to object to homosexuality?

 

Russell

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Russell

 

For some reason you still want to talk about being faithful, my argument has never been about that i have said that again in my last post, im not talking about how faithful a person is.

 

Secondly you are comparing two different things when talking about protected and unprotected sex, so it makes no sense to say well this is safer if you do this compared to if you dont do that with this.

 

Your question at the start of the forum was whats wrong with homosexuality and you stated you did not want a 'God does not like it answer'. So I presented one issue with it, that was my point.

 

I agree with what you say however when you talk about muslims saying that we are firstly against it because Allah has made it Haram. I do wish muslims would start by saying this. Ultimately Allah is our creator and he knows what is best for us, so as muslims we submit to him completly accepting that is what is best for us in this life and the next.

 

 

It may seem like a weak argument to you, so maybe we need to discuss whether or not there is a God?

Edited by ala'adin

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Russell,

 

I know for a fact that there are some gay people who want to get involved with straight people because they see them as sexually attractive. If you don't believe me, here is proof:

 

http://www.experienceproject.com/question-answer/How-Do-You-Turn-A-Straight-Man-Gay/227816

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100527160346AAmf4cF

 

Russell, you honestly sound naive when you say that being straight is a huge turn off to gay people. I have seen first hand that gay people are interested in straight people. What you are saying is so naive that is sounds like it came from a gay PR-book. "Don't worry about us because we aren't interested in you at all." 

 

By the way, you would make a horrible social scientist if you think that you will know what gay people like simply by asking them about sensitive topics. 

 

You are honestly naive if you think that homosexuals can only influence people by talking to them. There are other more mischievous ways in order to do that. Booze and drugs are two such examples. Another thing I don't want is for my children to pick up gay mannerisms. 

 

"Personally I don’t think anyone should be displaying sexual behaviours in public lesbian, heterosexual or homosexual.  All such behaviours should be kept for a private place regardless of who is involved." 

 

This one thing we agree on. However, there are gay people who don't. They flaunt it.  

 

By the way, your "morality test" is subjective. 

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