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SaracenSoldier

A New Nation Arises?

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I am sorry but I can't let this go: Opposing Bashar Assad's regime is one thing, but I have NOTHING but disdain for this fanatical, extremist group called "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" and their interpretation of Islam. There are several more reputable groups among the anti-Assad opposition. The "khilafa" that group of extremists envisions I would NOT support as a Muslim!

 

It would be a false "caliphate", united around a divisive agenda (as seen in their pan-Arabic chauvinistic attacks on Kurds who only want their freedom, as well as attacks on other Islamic groups which don't have the same interpretation as theirs) and a false methodology. Khilafa WILL return during the time of Imam Mahdi, as the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam) told us. But the "caliphate" envisioned by groups such as "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" and "Jubhat an-Nubha" will be doomed to failure.

 

I am merely presenting news. Feel free to criticize. I do, however, disagree with you. 

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I agree with Suhaib as would likely be noticed if anyone had read my earlier post.

 

Too many of these groups are big on some ideology of Islam that is not taught by any madhab, is contrary to the Qur'an and the Sunna and a lot of it goes back to National pride and or racial pride.  I abhor any state or group that opposes free thought and tries to teach that the prophet taught as much. 

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"Too many of these groups are big on some ideology of Islam that is not taught by any madhab, is contrary to the Qur'an and the Sunna and a lot of it goes back to National pride and or racial pride.  I abhor any state or group that opposes free thought and tries to teach that the prophet taught as much."

 

You are absolutely right! Their ideology is inherently modernist, even though their personal interpretation of Islam may seem puritanical a la Saudi style. There is much I can go into about the history behind this type ideology, the various links which go back and the figures involved which I could to anyone interested. But basically its very important to know the central disease behind these ideologies is their belief that a Muslim does not need a madhhab, that they can go "straight" to the Qur'an and Sunna without the necessary filter of the tried-and-tested madhahib.

 

If you look at the true historical exemplars of Islamic honor and chivalry - the BEST examples - such as Saladin, Imam Shamil and Emir Abdelkader El Jaza'iri...men who fought against an enemy but still conducted themselves with honor and always upheld the best Islamic virtues....they were men who followed one of the schools and who remained bounded with the strict guidelines of Qur'an and Sunna. Much evil has resulted from the spread of this la-madhhabi people, and in the process this includes Muslims conducting themselves with less honor, doing their own thing and in the process so often giving Islam a bad name.

 

In relation to national and racial supremacy, the growth of the la-madhhabi ideology coincided with that of pan-Arab nationalism. The earliest founders of this included those against the Ottoman khilafa, thinking the khilafa should remain "Arab". Read about Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida, they link directly to this modern political ideology which has more to do with Western concepts of statism and the like, under the guise of Islam.

 

Really, the idea of an "Islamic" state is an innovation which has nothing to do with traditional Islamic thought....so the very name behind the extremist group mentioned in this thread is un-Islamic. These articles illustrate some of the themes I'm alluding to:

 

www.bogvaerker.dk/wordpress?p=806

www.lamppostproductions.com/is-an-islamic-state-just-a-form-of-muslim-zionism-dr-khalid-blankinship/

 

Now, if you look at this group "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant," they are fighting another group of Muslims in northeast Syria. These are the Kurds, a non-Arabic ethnic group which merely wants their autonomy. Perhaps because this group seems to equate Arab supremacy with the "right" interpretation of Islam, they are fighting against any effort by the Kurds to fight for their rights. Fortunately, Kurdish freedom fighters have successfully driven out these fanatics who only give Islam a bad name out of their own deviated ignorance about our faith :)

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It's safe to say both of you have no idea what you're talking about. One accuses them of nationalism and racism when they have people from a gazillion different nationalities(maybe if you bothered to watch the YouTube video I posted you might realize you are mistaken) and the other accuses them of a false ideology and you don't even know what their ideology is. Almost every rebel group in Syria fought against the secular Kurds. Not just ISIS.

 

You have no problems supporting a secular Kurdish group but you abhor anyone trying to implement sharia. Far from accusing others of ideological problems you should have a look at your own personal beliefs.

 

Also, please show me a shred of evidence where ISIS prevents people from following a particular madhab.

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Oh and btw since you mentioned Salahudeen(rh) let me give a little history lesson. Salahudeen fought against Muslims as much as against the crusaders. He killed Muslims. I love Salahudeen but things aren't always black and white and my point here is that you using the example of Salahudeen(rh) and using that against ISIS is a weak argument.

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Touche there Saracen.  The group refers to itself as Iraqi, that is nationalistic pride.  I have seen some American Muslims that are just as bad on this.  This attachment to unIslamic states established either by the earlier Christian colonialists or by secularists is appalling.  Now if this particular group follows a particular madhab then I am all ears but it seems to me that they are a rag tag group that is interested in political agenda rather than an Islamic one. 

 

You will find Saracen, if you talk to me instead of just respond, that I am a reasonable man open to discussion.  But, I am not going to just watch a random 14 minute video to which you provided no information or summary.  I never actually said that this group was one of those.  I said I hate groups like the description that followed.  What madhab do they follow?  You are aware that declaring Jihad as an individual group or entity outside of the ummah is unIslamic by itself right?  The individualistic idea is a western one.  It is only through uniting together that we can truly make a difference. 

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Yes, I stand by what I said about them having a false ideology. That group is a well known proponent of a movement and sect which calls itself the "Salafi Jihadi". This is a well known fact, so denying it wouldn't do any good. As such, they are NOT united upon a specific madhhab but rather they have a la-madhhabi ideology....therefore, they are not abiding by the correct fiqh but rather an innovated political ideology which uses a warped interpretation of religion as a cover.

 

There are TRUE Sunnis and scholars of Ahlus-Sunna among the Syrian revolutionaries, but this group gives them a bad name; the TRUE Sunni mujahideen should be getting our attention and not this joke of a media-caricatured group that you promote on here! What have they accomplished except more bloodshed through fighting even other opposition groups?

 

Bottom line, I am STAUNCHLY anti-Zionist and support the rights of the Palestinian Arabs completely. Not going to back down from that one inch. But at the same time, I am an opponent of pan-Arab nationalism which has been responsible for persecuting the indigenous Berber people of Algeria, slaughtering the black people of Libya, and now in northeast Syria groups like this group of fanatics are trying to deny the Kurds the right to have their own land and autonomy. You seem to imply that such Arab Muslims are automatically "fighting for Islam," whereas these other Muslim ethnicities fighting for their rights are somehow "secular"?!

 

"but you abhor anyone trying to implement sharia" --- Quite the contrary! Its the WRONG interpretation of sharia that I oppose to be implemented. This group has the same ideology as the Al-Shabab in Somalia and look what they did? Alhamdulillah the Muslim people of Somalia took up arms against this group, exactly because they were a HERETICAL group that had nothing to do with true Islam.

 

"And suhaib if you think the concept of the Islamic State is not from Islam then what was the khilafah?"

 

Exactly my point! You hold to this ideology I am speaking of, that would seek to "Islamize" concepts which are inherently foreign to the umma, such that it seems strange to you otherwise. Khilafa is NOT a state, never was a "state", and has nothing to do with statism. Just as Siyasa has nothing to do with the Western idea of "politics"....Khilafa is Islamic, must be viewed within an Islamic framework connected to its very history.

 

On the other hand, from the very rise of the concept of a "state" in renaissance Europe, it was connected to inherently un-Islamic institutions : the rise of a central bank, with usury and the bankers in ascendency. The creation of a constitution, which likewise has nothing to do with Islamic history (some claim the agreements the Prophet sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam made with different groups was a "constitution" but this is a modernist argument; the idea of a constitution came later, in Europe). And the creation of a new identity of the people known as "citizens", which evolved from the feudal idea of "subjects".

 

The two articles I linked to earlier explains why the Khilafa has nothing to do with the idea of a "state", much less that oxymoron "Islamic" state. Only the confused, identity crisis people in the wake of the growth of this la-madhhabi ideology think in such limited terms....bounded they are by the legacy of the political and economic servitude which still has the umma in a vice grip. This is why even the so-called "Islamic" parties except usury and international loans!!! Allahu musta'an

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Touche there Saracen.  The group refers to itself as Iraqi, that is nationalistic pride.  I have seen some American Muslims that are just as bad on this.  This attachment to unIslamic states established either by the earlier Christian colonialists or by secularists is appalling.  

 

 

Well then hopefully YOU are not attached to your unIslamic country. Yet you have the USS Liberty as your icon. 

 

 

 

Now if this particular group follows a particular madhab then I am all ears but it seems to me that they are a rag tag group that is interested in political agenda rather than an Islamic one. 

 

What madhab do they follow?  

 

I don't know if there is a particular madhab ISIS officially follows but as I said before they sure do allow madhaib:

 

 

The translated document below is a schedule of Islamic learning in one of Jarabulus' local Masjids. Its content is predictable and coincides with ISIS' emphasis on religious instruction foremost. The teacher appears to be Egyptian (al-Masri). Similarly, the ISIS teacher for children in Jarabulus who appeared in an al-Itisam media video last year was Egyptian as well, which could be evinced at the time not only from his accent but also his affirmation of teaching Shafi'i jurisprudence: the main school of Islamic law in Egypt.

 

http://www.aymennjawad.org/2014/03/lessons-in-islamic-learning-in-the-islamic-state

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Iraq army capitulates to Isis militants in four cities

 

Iraq is facing its gravest test since the US-led invasion more than a decade ago, after its army capitulated to Islamist insurgents who have seized four cities and pillaged military bases and banks, in a lightning campaign which seems poised to fuel a cross-border insurgency endangering the entire region.

 

The extent of the Iraqi army's defeat at the hands of militants from the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (Isis) became clear on Wednesday when officials in Baghdad conceded that insurgents had stripped the main army base in the northern city of Mosul of weapons, released hundreds of prisoners from the city's jails and may have seized up to $480m in banknotes from the city's banks.

 

Iraqi officials told the Guardian that two divisions of Iraqi soldiers – roughly 30,000 men – simply turned and ran in the face of the assault by an insurgent force of just 800 fighters. Isis extremists roamed freely on Wednesday through the streets of Mosul, openly surprised at the ease with which they took Iraq's second largest city after three days of sporadic fighting.

 

Senior government officials in Baghdad were equally shocked, accusing the army of betrayal and claiming the sacking of the city was a strategic disaster that would imperil Iraq's borders.

 

 

 

 

Statements released by the group claimed that the assault on Mosul was the beginning of the end of the Sykes Picot agreement - the post-colonial settlement which in 1916 enshrined the nation states of Syria and Lebanon and influenced the drawing of the Jordan and Iraq borders. Isis commanders say they are fighting to destroy the post-Ottoman nation state borders and restore a caliphate that submits to fundamentalist Islamic law.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/mosul-isis-gunmen-middle-east-states

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Militants Sweeping Toward Baghdad

 

BAGHDAD — Sunni militants extended their control over parts of northern and western Iraq on Wednesday as Iraqi government forces crumbled in disarray. The militants overran the city of Tikrit, seized facilities in the strategic oil refining town of Baiji, and threatened an important Shiite shrine in Samarra as they moved south toward Baghdad.

The remarkably rapid advance of the Sunni militants, who on Tuesday seized the northern city of Mosul as Iraqi forces fled or surrendered, reflects the spillover of the Sunni insurgency in Syria and the inability of Iraq’s Shiite-led government to pacify the country after American forces departed in 2011 following eight years of war and occupation.

By late Wednesday, witnesses in Samarra, 70 miles north of Baghdad, were reporting that the militants, many of them aligned with the radical Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or ISIS, were on the outskirts of the city. They said the militants demanded that forces loyal to the government leave the city or a sacred Shiite shrine there would be destroyed. Samarra is known for the shrine, the al-Askari Masjid, which was severely damaged in a 2006 bombing during the height of the American-led occupation. That event touched off sectarian mayhem between the country’s Sunni Arab minority and its Shiite majority.

 

Read full:  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/world/middleeast/iraq.html?hp&_r=0

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Such strange circumstances , now Iran wants to co-operate with the US  and seems willing to discuss it's nuclear plans . Kurds looking to cut out their own nation in the North have overcome the ISSI .  Shia may now have a good reason to finally unite .  Stay tuned for bigger things to happen .[ none of them good ]

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  Part of your cartoon is quite correct  Saracen soldier , Things would have been much better with Saddam . So what if he had to kill a few hundred thousand Shia and Kurds every so often  , but yes The US should have stayed out of Iraq , no doubt about it .

However , there will be no caliphate . That is a pipedream . Iran will be involved one way or another as will the Saudis , each representing the opposing sides ,Shia and Sunni .  So what will eventually happen is an expanded war in the region , or the 32 million Iraqi Shia will stand and fight , but a Caliphate  Not a chance , just much bloodshed .

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Allah(swt) has promised that Islam will be established. The Prophet(saw) also told us that the Caliphate will be established again. If you think the re-establishment of the Caliphate is impossible, then if you see it established in your life time will you accept Islam? 

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I don't have to accept it , I'm not a muslim . Unless of course you think a Caliphate will attempt to impose itself on all peoples . Although it is highly unlikely to ever come about , I see it as a potential problem for muslims , since they will have to live under it's authority . As a non-muslim , no one will impose their religious views , traditions , values or practices upon me . And no , I will never accept Islam as my belief or religion under any circumstances . Islam is good for you , not for me . And I'm pretty sure there are quite a few other inhabitants of the planet who feel the same way I do .  I know many muslims who would refuse to live under an authoritarian caliphate . 

Edited by Aligarr

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ISIL , will be crushed Saracen Soldier , they have committed enough heinous barbaric acts to turn all civilized men against them . Although they wave their flag today , they will be tossed into the dustbin of history .  I hope you're not an approver of such people .

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They've built a nation that is now larger than the United Kingdom with a population of 6 million. Its over my friend, you're going to accept the fact that these guys are here to stay and aren't going anywhere any time soon. My advise to you is don't worry about this issue. Ask Allah for guidance and embrace Islam. Save yourself from hell fire. 

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So you do favor and approve these people ? This group of barbarians ?  No , nothing is inevitable Saracen Soldier , it may be your dream to participate in such an aberration of human behavior , but it will not be. They do not number 6 million nor one million nor 60 thousand , there are no more than 12,000 brigands , who have terrified a few million people , but the tide is already turning , they have been swept away from the Mosul Dam , they will soon be cleared out of Amerili , and soon Iraqi forces along with Kurds will unite against them .

  Sorry Saracen Soldier , but you will be disappointed in your aspirations . Perhaps you would like to participate in their endeavor ?

 

BTW , I am not "worried about the issue " ,I take note of it due to it's horrendous example of savagery and barbaric human behavior . In the US we will not turn and run from such scoundrels . In America there are no division of causes when facing such people . This involves Muslims and those of different religions unfortunate enough to be living in the region affected .

 

And Saracen Soldier , you are hardly the one to be warning another  about hellfire .

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Do you have a problem with the English language? Where did I ever say I approve of these people? I have no "aspirations". You are a fool who can't understand simple English. Commenting on an event does not mean support or condemnation. 

 

Secondly, I never said they have 6 million soldiers. I said their nation now has a population of 6 million(as some newspapers claim). 

 

Thirdly, just like the last decade all you people will do is kill more innocent people with your warmongering. 

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Don't call me a fool , that is the impression you gave , ESPECIALLY SINCE ADMIN REMOVED YOUR POST , which I'm sure they too thought was a bit too patronizing and sympathetic ,and laced with a threat .

   '

You say -  " all you people "  ?? What people Saracen Soldier ?    Whites ? Non-Muslims ?  Who do you think you are ? You are certainly no "soldier " but  merely a blogger , and that is all . NOTHING MORE !

 

You play with words , YOU said they are a nation , of 6 million , perhaps you do not know how to use the English language . They are NOT a nation , they do not control 6 million people . Perhaps you meant that they have terrorized 6 million people . They are nothing more than 12,000 or so homicidal maniacs . If this is your idea of what a Caliphate will look like , then it is a perverted version of what most Muslims are thinking of when they think of a Caliphate .

 Stop deluding yourself Saracen Soldier , this aberration will not become a Caliphate , they will be destroyed , not by the West , but by the SANE Muslims of the region . They will be a dark smear on the history of the region and nothing more .That will be their legacy . Unfortunately there will be much more bloodshed before they are vanquished , but they will be vanquished .

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Are you losing your mind? Which post of mine did ADMIN remove? Its all here, no one removed anything. LOL Dude. Are you feeling alright? 

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I know what I see .

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