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Ezra Son Or Not?

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Guest Mair

Please explain what is meant by Sura 9:30

 

Sahih International

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

 

Are these words the words of Allah or Prophet Mohammed?

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Please explain what is meant by Sura 9:30

 

Sahih International

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

 

Are these words the words of Allah or Prophet Mohammed?

 

 

everything in quran is from Allah , and nothing is from muhammed. muhamed did not wrote the quran.

Edited by andalusi
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I had hoped you would say otherwise and the words were Mohammed's :( because if Allah is Yahweh one and the same, Allah would have known never did the Jews say they believed Ezra to be son of God. God would also know how the Christians felt about the sonship of Jesus . If God gave us the Torah and the Gospels, a point on which the Quran agrees on, the Torah and the Gospels pave the way for mans acceptance of the Messiah and all that means, why then in the Quran is the role of the Messiah, ( as per biblical role in reference to the Christ Jesus,) is negated to mean nothing at all, in effect making the Christ Jesus to be a failure. If I am to believe in a unchanging God, a God who is ever constant in all attributes, (which I do) how am I supposed to see the apparent change of heart by the very same God I love and hold in the highest esteem?

 

Why the third person narrative? Or is it a translation issue and it reads differently in Arabic? And why does it end so on a question..how are they deluded? God would know.

 

 

 

because if Allah is Yahweh one and the same, Allah would have known never did the Jews say they believed Ezra to be son of God.

 

 

and how do you know what arabic jews believed during the time of Muhammed????

 

do you know that according to OT, adam, jacob, david and solomon are sons of God, so why is it strange that arabic jews also believed that Ezra is son of God when bible also say that other prophets are sons of God, like adam, jacob, david, and solomon?

 

 

 

mans acceptance of the Messiah and all that means

 

do you even know what messiah means???

 

 

 

 why then in the Quran is the role of the Messiah, ( as per biblical role in reference to the Christ Jesus,) is negated to mean nothing at all, in effect making the Christ Jesus to be a failure

 

what are you talking about???

 

you christian make jesus as failure beacuse you believe that he was killed on the cross, while according to God in quran, God saved Jesus from crucifixion. so it is you who make he as failure by puting him on the cross.

 

 

Why the third person narrative? Or is it a translation issue and it reads differently in Arabic? And why does it end so on a question..how are they deluded? God would know.

 

sometime God just talk about himself in third person.

 

they are deluded who think that God have sons, God does not have son, he does not need offsprings and creation of more Gods.

Edited by andalusi

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If it were some random Jews! a minority.. Why would Allah concern himself over the mutterings of a few ? 

 

They weren't random Jews. That was the belief of the Jews of Medina and Arabia. I don't know if you know, but the Jews with whom the Muslims were in contact with were from Medina. So, obviously the Qur'an is going to address their false beliefs. The Qur'an does not address the Jews of the Scriptures. A lot of the Jews in the Scriptures were believers, i.e. people who actually followed Prophets like Moses, Samuel, David, Solomon, Elijah, peace be upon them all, instead of disobeying them and being rebellious. 

 

For example, the Qur'an says:

 

 The jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.  (the Qur'an 5:64)

 

Do the Jews of the Scriptures say that Allah's hand is tied up, i.e. Allah is a miser? No. Do Jews in general say that? Obviously not, but that's something the Jews of Medina said to spite the Muslims, and their obvious disbelief got addressed. 

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For me this is the crux of the matter, and the big issue I have with seeing the hand of God.. As in YHWH.. In the Quran. It's the absence of Jesus. Muslims do NOT know Jesus, they may think they do but they are deceived. I am saddened by that. By denying the son they deny the father. I'm not sure where that leaves them... I'm thinking shaky ground possibly.

 

let see now who know jesus better we or you!!!

 

Tell me now, is jesus and father equal, like this Jesus=Father ?

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Are you absolutely sure that you do not know the answer to that ? You surely do know by now how Christians view the relationship between Jesus and God the father?

 

I verily do think you are having a laugh here.. :D

 

why dont you dare to answer the question, yes or no?

 

 

 

 

Suppose you just tell me what are the teachings of Isa? what, as Jesus was considered a great Prophet in the Quran.. What was his reason for being? 

 

that God is only One, not 3. teaching of jesus is actually teaching of Islam, jesus was a muslim.

 

if you doubt me, then read what he says

 

Jesus said the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40, and told others to be a Muslim:

 

hebrew_2.gif

 

Aramaic

translated into Hebrew: "Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."

 

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

 

 

 

What was his reason for being? 

 

to guide children of isreal to the right path, so they can get into paradise in hereafter.

Edited by andalusi

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Mair,

 

Since your a Christian I advise caution when learning about how the other faiths view Jesus. Why because the other faiths that come after the great commission of Christ Jesus often have a heterodox view of him and his teachings. Some like the Islamic faith view him as a messiah even prophet but not the Son of God in the holy trinity. The Bahai view him as a prophet and honor his teachings but not as the Son of God. The problem is Jesus didn't give us that choice. He is either the most evil man to ever live or he is the messiah the Son of God in the holy trinity.

 

Peace be with you.

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Actually what brought me here in the first place was my quest for Jesus as in .. My Jesus.. In the Quran.

 

Suppose you just tell me what are the teachings of Isa? what, as Jesus was considered a great Prophet in the Quran.. What was his reason for being?

 

Blessings

 

003.047  Y: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

 

003.048 Y: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, 

 

003.049 Y: "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in  your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

 

003.050  Y: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

 

003.051  Y: "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

 

003.052  Y: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

 

003.053  Y: "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."

 

003.054  Y: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah. P: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

 

 

003.055  Y: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. 

 

I like to recommend you to read the two chapters of Quran (3 and 19) that tells the most about Jesus (pbuh) and his mother (pbuh), they are not too long (btw the Quran is about 9% of the bible size)

 

He (pbuh) came to reduce the Jews strict laws, correct their materialistic view of the life  and add a spiritual dosage to Balance their views of life to regain the physical/spiritual balance that human need to live in the proper way.

 

while if you mean, why was he born that specific way? because that supports the above idea. For a virgin to be pregnant without any male intervention,  its some thing against material/physical laws and you have to accept by heart/spirit......accept or not?!!

 

why should they believe in that as a spiritual miracle and not adultery? and that was the exact wary of Mary (pbuh), But Allah solved the problem by another miracle, her  accusetion evidence defended her. her few hours infant defended her, he spoke in cradle .....

 

019.027 Y: At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

 

019.028  Y: "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

 

019.029  Y: But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

 

019.030 Y: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

 

019.031  Y: "And He hath ade me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as  long as I live;

 

019.032  Y: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; 

 

 

Now, what should they do? believe or not?? 

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Reduce the Strict laws for the Jews! Were theses the same strict laws that God gave through Moses? Aka.. The Ten Commandments.. Jesus said he did not come to change the law, but to fulfil the law.

 

 

first off, where is the OT?! did you ever see one, I mean the original one,? NO. the oldest copy you have is from the 10th cent. it's been changed over and over "How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain" JER. 8:8.

 

the LAWs are not the 10 commandments, it's the penalties you subjected to if you didn't follow the commands. for example, "don't kill" what if you killed some one "you must be killed". "don't commit adultery", OMG you tell me who didn't in the west?!!, " who don't obey that must be stoned" do you obey the law?!! I can assure that Allah has protected those who live in the Islamic countries from that sin,, guess why?!! 

 

third, and due to the change there are some other laws been added like this one, "IF a man rape a nice woman, he have to marry here (regardless her opinion, she have to live the rest of her life with her rapper!!!) and pay her father 10 silver coins".......you can seek your OT laws

 

Finally, it was the strict laws against the "society damaging  crimes" and some more added by time and scribe's pens

  

 

R

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

that's seems fine, BUT you, Christian, don't follow these original teachings, but the later on teachings that popped up during different times after Jesus (pbuh) been raised. if you know that most of the Christian scholars believe, now, that the story of the Adultrous woman, has been added in the 5th century (review the NIV 1952), what will be your feeling?! will you follow the OT laws or the later on added laws?!

 

see also the commints about the Sinaticux codex, that tells this copy were written in the fourth century and subjected to 4 main series of changes (btw, one of them was in the 7th century, why do you think? let me guess,to remove any direct notation about the new prophet)

 

 

R

Why do you feel the virgin birth supports the idea that Jesus had to be born this way if he was just another prophet in a long line of prophets which God had seen fit to choose from ordinary people born of a man and woman in the usual way?

 

 

I explained that to you, assume you are just such strict materialistic Jew. a woman came to you carrying a child without a father. "OK guys, prepare the yard, we have to stone someone who commit .......". BUT wait, you, materialistic and see what will happen, the infant will defend his innocent mother. OMG, what to do now.......materialistic?? believe in god's anti-material miracles or apply the law!!!

 

a more reasonable question, why the god didn't sacrifice his son "now a days" tape recordings, TVs, Satellites, ....a non-disputable prove, we will here the voice, that's my son, and see the glory of the his son,.......? and so save more many than the way he did it, hidden in history and without any significant signs?

 

OK, Finally, some guys decided to separate the spiritual amendment dosage, Jesus come with, and build a complete new religion, which didn't have a final shape but later in the 4th century.

 

 

R

If God (who we can agree is Omniscient) would have known of any such social consequences for Mary, by having a child before marriage, then God could have allowed Mary to become with child after her marriage to Joseph, after all they were already betrothed. Then there would have been no need for Jesus to talk as a baby, which is only reported in Quran and some suspect gnostic writings.

 

Joseph is not a part of the Quranic story. where is the miracle, then?! in your story version, why to have such miracle and hide it?! I mean if the god have a son, hidding him?! in the OT no one have any idea about him, Adam who lived in the paradise and heard the god and talked to the god, never mentioned that there were another son of the god here or there?! and finally when born miraculously, hide that and let a man claims that he is his son? why do you thank, that will convince the Jews or any other one?!

 

again do you believe that, the woman adultery story is a part of the bible, or no?!

 

 

R. Then there would have been no need for Jesus to talk as a baby, which is only reported in Quran and some suspect gnostic writings.

 

these writings are the mere truth, and as you accepted to know that the adulturous woman story was being added to the NT in some point in history, many other accepted a greater changes before. you know, if you bring up the bible copy that written by Jesus, I must believe in it, but where is it?!

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Ahmed.. For the love of Ada..!!! Sorry but if that's the tone you wish to set, bible corruption etc etc. what's the point. I don't see my faith in God depends totally on what is written in Books. It's above that.

 

Don't be talking of the injustice of Old Testament laws most of which are alive and well and found within Islam. Where are men and women in the world today stoned for adultery? Where in the world today are women punished for being raped? Two years or so ago a young Moroccan woman committed suicide by drinking poison when the courts and her family made her marry the man who had raped her. Don't be occupying the moral high ground when honour killings still occur in Islamic communities. For sure you can come back and say yes...but these things happen through ignorance.. They are against Islams teachings etc.

 

That's fine, and on the same basis adultery for Christians in the west is still a sin, only difference being we don't get stoned for it.. Doesn't mean to say we won't answer for it at the judgement.

 

BTW interesting signature you have, do you know where it originated?

 

peace.

sister, Mair

Pardon me, if any of my words hurt you. that wasn't my aim and will not be. pardon me also for being late in replaying I'm just very busy these days

 

ok, forcing the girl to marry her rapper, you answered for Muslems' case, it's not a teaching of Islam. But you will not be able to answer for the OT case because, the scribe who wrote it tells it's from god. on the other hand the rapper may have different penalties in Islam, in my country, Egypt, they chose the most strict, if the case is proven, he will be executed.

 

I know the original source of this verse, it's from the only one god, the god of the original Torah, Injeel and the Quran, the only one god who created Adam and Eve and talked to Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus and The final messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of the all mighty one god be up on them all)

 

FYI, I live in the west I have never committed adultery, and a great many of my friends and acquaintances have not either, this we have managed without living under any threat of being stoned to death as a deterrent. Myself I have strived to live by example Jesus set through his teachings and his life. It's worked this far.... So alls good.

Mashaa Allah, By Allah, I'm most happy to hear that, I've been, for studying, to the USA and Canada, I didn't see or hear any indications about "Chasity" except for the Mormon....But now, I'm asking Allah to strengthen you on the Chasity way.

 

Do you like as many as of the Christian women, be chaste?! what could be the solution?! if their human nature relayed on their feelings that they are saved what ever they do? Just believe, the price is paid?

 

Firstly Ahmad 73, please accept my apologies I allowed my personal feelings to enter into debate. I will in future endeavour to keep my replies as clear and factual as I can.

you don't have to, nothing happened at all.

 

In all serious enquiries such as have I see the original OT is preposterous, I could ask you have you see the original copy of the Quran? I'm guessing you would have to say no, you have not. You should also be aware that any ancient manuscripts in existence are not freely available to be pawed over by all and sundry, due to their antiquity and fragility great care is taken to ensure their preservation. Now the fact you have not ( I'm assuming) read the original copy of the Quran yourself may I ask if that in any way has impacted on your belief in its message as being true in your opinion. I'm guessing you would say no, it would not.

My self, I'm in no need to see the original written copy of the Quran, because the Quran didn't been reserved by writing, but "MEMORIZING". there were 100s or may be 1000s of the Quran memorizers at the time of the prophet (pbuh), who spread in the world to teach and transfer the Quran to the next generations and so on, now we have 1000,000s of Full Quran memorizers all over the world, cover to cover, not a different letter nor "Tashkeel which is the excact way of pronouncing a letter in Arabic language" Although they are from different far places and different chains of memorizers, but all of them meet at the name of the prophet (pbuh)

 

There you have it...I am happy with the authenticity of the Bible as you are happy with the authenticity of the Quran. So quibbling suppositions made with no conclusive proof is a tad pointless.. Don't you think? Any wild claims you make I have likely heard already and have dismissed them as seeing them for what they are, an attempt to devalue the Bible so as to give credence to the Quran as some kind of final revelation for mankind.

here is he main difference between Christians and Muslems, they depend on the "FAITH" alone while we depend on both "proof and faith" in a balanced way. I just told you why I'm happy with the authenticity of the Quran, which is being sintifically assured by time. while the case is different with the bible, in the NIV 1952, the bible christian scholers (not a muslem among them)they removed not only statments and words but passages from the bible and said it was a fabrication, EX: the adultery woman story and the final 11 verses in Mark.......

 

let's see something more clear do you believe that the Catholic added extra fabricated man made chapters t the word of god, or the protestants through away 7 chapters of god's writing out of his holy book?!

 

I can think maybe it is the woman who was to be stoned by the Jews for prostitution or adultery, Jesus took a stone and addressed the crowd and said "let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone" no one could cast a stone, Jesus forgave the woman and said "Go, and sin no more" the crowd dispersed and went about their business.

yes it's, now the scholars after having 10,000 of the laten and Greek copies of the bible and arranged them by year of writing, they find that this story began to pop up in some copies from the 5th cent. then it become poppuler in the next copies. what do you think about that?!!

 

I have no reason to doubt that this account is not accurately attributed to Jesus because it fits so perfectly in harmony with all else he taught. Do you see the lesson? .

I can see the lesson BUT do you see the final results?!! how many christian women and men fall in that crime, are you happy with that percentages?!

Lesson (2) "a little wine is good for your stomach" how many wine drunkers in your people?? (3) "your sins are already paid" .........homosexuality and ..........??

 

Jews care about " deeds", Christians "Faith" and Islam it's about a balanced way "faith and good deeds"

 

comparisons and some reasonable thinking (plz take your time thinking about this):

Deterring by punishments is not always evil as some may see, on the other hand it may prevent more greater evils.

 

Crime and Punishment, 100s and 1000s cases we live in and yields to with full submission and highly regarded and say what an intelligent law and intelligent punishments and legislators.

 

Military base , important power station, water station, nuclear station fence:

if some one tried to get near a military base fence he will find "don't get near than 5 meters, no photography permitted" . if he gets nearer he may be shot in the leg, more nearer may be a small 5.4mm pullet to the head, if not the man will be shocked by the electric fence...........

 

why do you have that harsh punishment for the man who already own these facilities, you know the killer solder is being paid from this innocent man taxes, and these aircraft are been bought also from his money 

 

horrific death process: after being shout to the chest, the 6.62 cal. pullet penetrated the man lungs and exploded his lever, he kept suffering for 15 minutes tell the ambulance came while the soldiers didn't allow it to save the man before the explosive  experts came .the man still suffering and crying, plz end this and kill me.....ok, courageous, not now...the experts  came another 20 minutes later.. ......

 

do you like this kind of punishment and deterring and do you think it did good, and the legislators are brilliant guys?

 

crime: not fastening my own  safety belt in my on car.....the punishment, a financial ticket, loosing points, forbidden from driving and may be jailed........why do you think?!!!

 

peace be to the truth seekers...

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