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Relation Between The # 3 Gods In The One God

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 Oh.. Come on.. Category C.. Refute Christians as this thread was surely set up to do. ;)

 

Your category c refers to Muslims? I was talking about you, Christian members. 

 

 

If you could only see my library of books at home

 

Not those books. I mean Islamic books written by Muslims, the real stuff. You find them here in our download section

 

 

 

When I misunderstand or misquote something in the Quran..and this has happened.. That it should be read in Arabic in order to understand completely. That sets me thinking ..why would God be so restrictive in His message? Shouldn't Gods word be the same in any language?

 

misunderstanding happens from the translators' side. You see, Arabic is a rich language. Many words have no equivalents in English. Many translators are themselves students of Arabic language.

There is also a more important reason, regarding the fine details. Those details that send messages of beauty in the language, and knowledge of Allah that is above all knowledge. All knowledge comes from Allah, and only He decides when and how much of it we reach. Even Arabs understand the fine details in the verses according to the current level of knowledge mankind obtained. As time goes by, we discover that our past understanding was wrong. This is because the Quran was meant for all mankind in all generations. Today, we understand it better than in the past, and tomorrow they will understand it better than we do. Its all based on how far we reach in terms of knowledge and discoveries. But nothing of all that affects the main ideas in the Quran. It stands the same, and anyone can understand them, in any language.

 

 

the evidence you produce to back up this claim is sketchy at best

 

I didn't give any evidence. I usually focus on reasoning. Other members are better than me in quotes.

 

 

You would see why it is so very hard for me to give it up without having 100% belief that it was right.

 

I understand the difficulty.

But turning to Islam never meant giving up on Jesus. On the contrary, it makes you love him even more, in what he truly was and still is. He is alive, up there with Allah Al-Mighty, while all other prophets are dead. He will come back to us, only him, among all other prophets. Believe me, when a Christian turns to Islam, they love Jesus even more. All that Islam does is toss away all the lies and falsifications, and give you Jesus for real.

 

 

In fact, would you even consider such a thing yourself? I'm would hazard a guess you would say no, you would not.

 

I had my doubts before. In my late teens. It was not a search of alternatives, I was not sure of my faith in Allah Himself. But it lasted only a few years, and then my faith came back stronger, all praise to Allah. Yet, I never doubted that the true religion for anyone to follow is nothing other than Islam.

 

Ask Muslim reverts. When Christians become Muslims, they are not abandoning Christianity, they're upgrading their faith, correcting and purifying it from all the bad bits that clung to it over time. It is the same original divine message. It was, all the time. It never changed.

You're just lagging behind.

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OK...Let me be as careful as I know how being on the internet and all.

 

You didn't answer my question. Anyway, I will say two things.

 

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah (4:64)

 

Firstly, nobody worships the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) nor the other Messengers. The Messengers, peace be upon them, are to obeyed because they are the spokesmen of Allah. Thus, when you obey the Messenger of Allah, you are actually obeying Allah. Why? Because a Messenger of Allah is Allah's spokesman and Allah has given them authority. Nobody worships them. 

 

Secondly, the things you quoted from the canonical Gospels, which are of dubious origin, are falsely attributed to Jesus, peace be upon him. The quotes cannot be traced back to him. 

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Besides, the fact that certain books were not added to the Bible doesn’t corrupt them. Christians are still free to read and accept books that weren’t canonized.

 

The books mentioned in that link are lost, i.e. prophecies that are the Word of God have been lost. Something which is lost can hardly be called "the incorruptible words of God that the Bible states is established forever".

 

I doubt you read the link I lined. It talks about books that are referenced in the Bible, i.e. written by Prophets, but that are now lost. 

 

 

and your comment about my Christian biases wasn't necessary the Jews read the Torah not the Gospels. 

 

And? Where does the Qur'an say anything about Gospels in the plural? I will save your breath. There is no mention of Gospels in the plural, as in your four canonical Gospels. 

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 And? Where does the Qur'an say anything about Gospels in the plural? I will save your breath. There is no mention of Gospels in the plural, as in your four canonical Gospels. 

 

That is true. In the 12 instances mentioned in the Quran, not a single one was mentioned in plural. Read about it here:

The Injeel - Gospel In The Quran

 

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Muslim cannot prove that the Quran is perfectly preserved. 

 

This is not true. Here is a book on the history of the Qur'anic text from Revelation until compilation and beyond. The book is also a comparative study between the compilation of the Qur'an, and the Old and New Testaments. Read the book because you honestly make a lot of false statements like "only parts of the Quran were found on stones and other materials", which is completely false.

 

http://individual.utoronto.ca/fantastic/The_History_of_the_Quranic_Text_from_Revelation_to_Compilation.pdf

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Then look at Sura16: 101. This is where Allah says when we change a verse in place of another that Allah knows best what he sends down and if disbelievers say it is fabricated, Allah says they don’t know. This makes no sense to me..

 

 

Let me break it down to you. The fact that Allah abrogates some of His commands does not mean Allah makes mistakes. Commands are also Ayahs, the Arabic word that is translated as signs in the verses. Only a simpleton or a disbeliever would think that Allah makes mistakes.

 

There are different reasons why Allah's commandments change. I will give a couple of examples. Allah didn't at first command the Muslims, nor the children of israel for that matter, to fight. They underwent persecution in Makkah and Egypt respectively. Later on Allah ordered them to fight.

 

Another good example:

 

(And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad ) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e., disobey the Messenger).) (2:143)

 

Allah ordered the Muslims to pray towards Bait-ul-Maqdis, which is in Jerusalem, but He later ordered them to face the K'abah to test who will follow the Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Allah changes some of His commandments to test who obeys. A disbeliever or a simpleton will think that Allah "changes His mind" because he sees Allah in human terms. That's what humans do, i.e. when we give a new order it's because we change our minds. However, with Allah this is not the case since He knows the future. Thus, He gives rules to see obeys, rules to suit different occasions, sometimes even to punish (for example, the dietary laws were made harsher for the children of israel in the Torah because they were stiff-necked and were later made laxer for the Muslims). Like I said, only a disbeliever and a simpleton would think that Allah makes mistakes. That's because they do not understand Allah nor respect Him. 

 

The recital of some verses has been cancelled, i.e. they have not been lost. Allah knows best the reason for their cancellation. 

 

"Let’s look at abrogation in Sura 2: 106 this verse states that whatever Allah abrogates or causes to be forgotten, he brings one better or like it and Allah knows all things."

 

The verse says, "Know you not that Allah is Able to do all things", not "Allah knows all things". Quote the verses instead. 

 

Here is the interpretation:

 

Imam Abu Ja`far bin Jarir said, "The Ayah means, `Do you not know, O Muhammad, that I alone own the heavens and the earth and that I decide whatever I will in them I forbid whatever I will, change and repeal whatever I will of My previous rulings, whenever I will. I also uphold whatever I will.''

 

Ibn Jarir then said, "Although Allah directed His statement indicating His greatness towards His Prophet , He also rejected the lies of the Jews who denied that the rulings of the Torah could undergo Naskh. The Jews also denied the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad, because of their dislike for what they brought from Allah, such as changing some rulings of the Torah, as Allah commanded. Allah thus proclaimed to the Jews that He owns the heavens and earth and also all authority in them. Further, the subjects in Allah's kingdom are His creation, and they are required to hear and obey His commands and prohibitions. Allah has full authority to command the creation as He wills, forbidding them from what He wills, abrogate what He wills, uphold what He wills, and decide whatever commandments and prohibitions He wills.''

 

 

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=329

 

A person who thinks that when Allah abrogates an Ayah that He is wrong in doing is really somebody who doesn't understand Allah nor accept His authority. 

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The point is the Jews don’t read any Gospel. 

 

And? Who said they did? You haven't made a point. You've simply stated something that is blatantly obvious and which has got nothing to with anything. 

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Mair sorry sister. I responded to the wrong post. The truth is that the trinitarian belief is logical. In fact it's taken many church councils and centuries to iron out. But even now it can truly be called a mystery. I can't speak for Muslims but all Christians are called to pray. We are a prayerful people. Now to atheists that would be a complete waste of time and yet we pray.

 

I'm currently reading a book by Jaroslav pelikan about the 1st 6 centuries and development of catholic doctrine. I'm currently reading about the trinity doctrine and that it's incredibly deep. Some of the oldest catholic prayers imply that they even believed and accepted it back then. So it's an ancient belief of the Catholic Church. Even Arius and Origen heretics, couldn't break away completely from the trinity through there prayers though they tried.

Now what's not logical is this other gospel book given to Jesus called injeel. Still it's an Islamic doctrine they Muslims must believe and accept this. But, that doesn't mean Christians have too. After all christians are supposed to follow our Christian faith.

 

Peace be with you.

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 no matter how many centuries of men attempt to iron out the concept of the trinity I do always feel it will never be easily explained to non believers

 

You shouldn't be concerned about non believers. Try focusing on believers first.

Or.. perhaps you consider Muslims non believers..

.. do you?

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Dot a question.  Is it acceptable to explain ones faith even if it differs from Islam?  Specifically in regards to history so long as done in a respectful manner.  By discussing various early church councils that may answer this and other questions posed here this may occur.     

 

Peace be with you

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